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View Full Version : Cutting/Bulking same time



jack_of_all
01-20-2005, 05:55 PM
i have no evidence to back this up, not even a trial. its strictly theoretical.(though i think ive heard you can lose BF and gain lbm simultaneously, and have done myself, had very little gains, not to mention i wasnt lifting seriously and needed less to build up specific muscles through iso exercises.)

here comes the dumbshi* theory...

im aware your body needs a calorie surplus to gain effectively, but i still have a question.

if before a workout one eats quite a bit (just barely shy of getting cramped due to overeating) and consumes say 400-500 calories. then works out and consumes say 100 calories DURING the workout itself and finishes up. at this point they consume another 400-500 calories and 75+ grams of protein.

is it possible that they could consume so many calories that they could make their body think it had a massive surplus and take major advantage of anabolic window. for the rest of the day they would eat a normal days food minus the ~1000 kcals they consumed earlier. they would also eat maybe 50 grams of protein with very few cals before bed.

please dont post saying im overanalyzing, in some ways thats the point.

but in a more literal sense(... lol ...) the actual point is this, by taking full advantage of the body's anabolic window and the body's ability to repair at night it is in fact possible to make serious gains while losing fat at least at a moderate rate.

any opinions, because im thinking about doing this.

ryuage
01-20-2005, 06:02 PM
honestly.... if it was that simple, wouldnt everyone be having excellent results?

Drheckler
01-20-2005, 06:05 PM
I put on 30 pounds in a year and kept my BF at 11%, but I watched what I ate. But to bulk and keep it super low like below 8%, I'm not sure... but I'm sure someone here can anwser that.

Vido
01-20-2005, 06:54 PM
You can't "trick" your body into thinking you're in a caloric surplus by eating one large meal (not that 400-500 cals is even close to a large meal). Body composition changes are going to be based more on weekly, and less so daily, caloric intake than hourly. You're breaking it down into way too small a timeframe; the human body does not work in that fashion.

jack_of_all
01-20-2005, 07:13 PM
while i understand the time frame issues, im not so sure you would be "tricking" it. the large meal (its a large for having eaten roughly 1000 cals in around an hour) WOULD provide a calory surplus that WOULD cause some healing that WOULD happen in the space of a few hours. then a few hours later when you body was accumulating a slight deficit it would turn more to fats than muscle and allow you to keep much of that.

it is in the final step that i think this would unhinge, i did not honestly believe it would work, but thought it was worth asking. in the final step its quite possible that you in fact DIDN'T gain much muscle and would lose the small amounts you accumulate in the rest of the day. regardless of whether this would work, it would most likely be slower than the bulk/cut/repeat strategy in the long run.

Adam
01-20-2005, 10:07 PM
I've done something sorta similar in the past with great results. ST is losing a whack of fat while putting on muscle right now, check out his journal.
What i did was eat 'small' meals everywhere but near the workout.(like cutting diet size meals)
Then when the workout rolled around i had my Massive Shake(TM) followed by a big cal meal after then i resume my small meals.

smalls
01-21-2005, 12:47 AM
You can't "trick" your body into thinking you're in a caloric surplus by eating one large meal (not that 400-500 cals is even close to a large meal). Body composition changes are going to be based more on weekly, and less so daily, caloric intake than hourly. You're breaking it down into way too small a timeframe; the human body does not work in that fashion.

Very good post. Maximizing the "anabolic window" will not result in puting on any appreciable muscle.

CrazyK
01-21-2005, 01:15 AM
I've put on muscle and loss fat simueltaneously, with the help of tren.

The_Brick
01-21-2005, 05:18 AM
A lot of people on this board think they are losing bodyfat and putting on weight at the same time. You are wrong.

AdmiralDan
01-21-2005, 06:21 AM
brick, why do you say that?

Vido
01-21-2005, 11:18 AM
Thanks smalls.

I'm not The_Brick, but I'll answer for him. There's really only 2 times you're able to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously: when you first start working out and if you are using AAS.

AdmiralDan
01-21-2005, 01:55 PM
then could you explain something to me? i have been lifting on and off for 4 years, the last year solid. for about 6 of the past nine months, my weight has stayed the same while i have lost bodyfat and gained muscle mass. if you say it can only be done as a beginner or on AAS, then how did i do it?

(i don't mean for this to be sarcastic)

Adam
01-21-2005, 02:48 PM
There's really only 2 times you're able to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously: when you first start working out and if you are using AAS.

vido, take a look at ST's journal and mine from back in ~june/04.
It can be done w/o steroids

carlossalsa8
01-21-2005, 03:42 PM
It can happen. I used to be 11% bf and got to 6 %. I put on more muscles and my bf kept on the same at 6. Now I have lost the muscles cuz I have been training ( running ) a lot ( soccer player ) Now I still have the same bf but less muscles. I ate a lot though and still do. Based on my experience you can do both but it will take a bit longer. If you are an athlete (long distance runner, soccer player) and want to gain muscle, just eat more. If you are fat and want to lose bf and gain muscle at the same time just eat right and exercise more. I ate a lot and kept on running a lot and it worked for me.

Vido
01-21-2005, 03:51 PM
It can happen. I used to be 11% bf and got to 6 %. I put on more muscles and my bf kept on the same at 6.

If you gain muscle, your bodyfat % automatically goes down...you don't have to have lost any fat.

Shao-LiN
01-21-2005, 06:47 PM
then could you explain something to me? i have been lifting on and off for 4 years, the last year solid. for about 6 of the past nine months, my weight has stayed the same while i have lost bodyfat and gained muscle mass. if you say it can only be done as a beginner or on AAS, then how did i do it?

(i don't mean for this to be sarcastic)

How long of a break did you take before the 6 of the 9 months? Long breaks are almost the same as starting anew.

AdmiralDan
01-21-2005, 06:51 PM
i was off for 3 or 4 weeks. before that, my gym going would be best described as random. sometimes i would go 3 times a week, and sometimes i would just go once, but i always worked out at least once a week prior to that

jack_of_all
01-22-2005, 07:45 PM
Vido, today i was thinking and i thought about what i just checked back here to look for. you nailed it. these people are NOT losing fat, they are just bulking very efficiently and as a result they gain fat but % goes down because of bulk. this is easier to have happen at the beggining imho because at start you make faster gains and also gain bone density.

iLUDEd
01-22-2005, 11:34 PM
Ud2.

Vido
01-23-2005, 01:46 AM
Vido, today i was thinking and i thought about what i just checked back here to look for. you nailed it. these people are NOT losing fat, they are just bulking very efficiently and as a result they gain fat but % goes down because of bulk.

Depending on just how efficiently they are doing things, they may not even be gaining any fat at all.

Vido
01-23-2005, 01:48 AM
Ud2.

UD2 is good for cutting, while retaining lean mass, or conversely for bulking, while limiting fat gain...but it's doubtful you are going to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.

Adam
01-23-2005, 02:28 AM
Me and Vido had a chat about gaining lbm while losing fat. We both agrees that it can be done but its very tough. Your diet must be EXACT, and you will not gain muscle at an optimum rate or lose fat at an optimum rate.(genetics also play a big role)
For the average person that does not eat precisely the same everyday and does not have alot of dieting experiance and nutritional background it is easier to just bulk or cut.

Vido
01-23-2005, 02:38 AM
:withstupi

iLUDEd
01-23-2005, 07:33 AM
UD2 is good for cutting, while retaining lean mass, or conversely for bulking, while limiting fat gain...but it's doubtful you are going to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.

i somehow managed just that with my Ud2 cycle last week, although in the past it rarely happens, usually after 5 weeks on Ud2 my LBM varies and ends up generally being the same as what i had started cutting with.

Shao-LiN
01-23-2005, 08:24 AM
Me and Vido had a chat about gaining lbm while losing fat. We both agrees that it can be done but its very tough. Your diet must be EXACT, and you will not gain muscle at an optimum rate or lose fat at an optimum rate.(genetics also play a big role)
For the average person that does not eat precisely the same everyday and does not have alot of dieting experiance and nutritional background it is easier to just bulk or cut.

Well yes, it's not impossible to do, just extremely hard to do. It requires a certain level of dedication and preciseness that most people are not capable of.

cashmoneypimp
01-23-2005, 09:21 AM
If you gain muscle, your bodyfat % automatically goes down...you don't have to have lost any fat.


Really? So as long as im gaining muscle, I dont need to be on a fat losing kind of diet?

Adam
01-23-2005, 10:10 AM
well, thats up to you.

Shao-LiN
01-23-2005, 10:45 AM
Really? So as long as im gaining muscle, I dont need to be on a fat losing kind of diet?

That's assuming that you are not gaining fat as you gain muscle. You most likely will unless you really fine tune your diet and routine.

Adam
01-23-2005, 11:44 AM
^^^^ :nod:

Vido
01-23-2005, 12:59 PM
Really? So as long as im gaining muscle, I dont need to be on a fat losing kind of diet?

You'll notice I said your bodyfat PERCENTAGE goes down...I never said you lost any actual fat. Therefore, if you have fat to lose this won't accomplish your goal.

StarLeague
01-24-2005, 12:10 PM
What about Antek?

Just look at his pictures, BF remains low but he looks like as if he puts some mass. I remember reading he doesn't do any of the bulking/cutting

Adam
01-24-2005, 01:40 PM
What about antek?
He is slowly adding muscle so his BF% does not increase.
We already said it can be done.