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sirsmiley
02-10-2005, 03:44 PM
I am going to switch to whey next time i think but i bought a soy based protein instead of whey, it only lasts 18 uses anyways at typical dose...

weiders soy based protein ...

some people say soy isnt as good, i know whey will get slightly better performance but can soy be unhealthy? i cant trust any studies online because they are always bashing each other it seems....

they were saying soy based can cause hormonal problems or something along that lines....?

jazer80
02-10-2005, 04:45 PM
soy is good sometimes, whey is good sometimes. someone here said it best 'don't put all your eggs in one basket'. whey sucks before bed, because it really only gives you a little over two hours of good amino acid levels. soy isn't as good after training (compared to whey) because it digests slowly, closer to six hours (making it a good beddtime candidate). they are just different, one is not 'better' than the other. if i had to choose i'd go with soy, but others would go with whey. i only use whey when waking up or before/after workouts, but use soy before bed, during the day, and when making smoothies or bars. also don't worry about the hormone thing. if you look around on this site you'll learn about it, i don't have time to explain but it's not gonna make you grow tits. i take about forty grams daily.

sirsmiley
02-10-2005, 05:00 PM
soy is good sometimes, whey is good sometimes. someone here said it best 'don't put all your eggs in one basket'. whey sucks before bed, because it really only gives you a little over two hours of good amino acid levels. soy isn't as good after training (compared to whey) because it digests slowly, closer to six hours (making it a good beddtime candidate). they are just different, one is not 'better' than the other. if i had to choose i'd go with soy, but others would go with whey. i only use whey when waking up or before/after workouts, but use soy before bed, during the day, and when making smoothies or bars. also don't worry about the hormone thing. if you look around on this site you'll learn about it, i don't have time to explain but it's not gonna make you grow tits. i take about forty grams daily.


lol sounds good enough to me, BITCH TITS :D lol thx

Geeper
02-10-2005, 05:18 PM
Soy blocks testosterone!!!!!! and that's exactly what your body need for muscle growth. So I'd limit my soy intake, big time. It also messes with your thyroid functions, which can slow or seed up your metabolism causing you to get fat and weak (slower metab) or not be able to gain muscle and be rake thin (faster metab).

Because of certain meds I'm on (my life depends on thyroid meds quite literally) I REALLY have to limit my soy intake and what I've found is it's amazing how much soy we eat without even knowing it. So many foods add soy to make the nutritional info look healthier, pick up almost anything packaged and read the ingredents, soy is in there. (bread, cakes, cookies, light mayo, cereals, pasta, protein bars, muffins, pancakes, salad dressings, coffee, butter, margarine, cheeses, canned meat, canned tuna, TV diners, boullion cubes, MRP, Soups, hot dogs, ice cream just for a FEW examples.... not all brands ect and sometimes it's hidden under another name)

SO adding a soy shake afterwards is just adding more and more soy to a huge amount of it you're already taking in without even knowing it.

Go with Whey (there's even usually a little soy in there) if you want more info just google "soy" there is TONS of info on it.

The_Brick
02-10-2005, 05:30 PM
I have also read that Soy is "phytoestrogenous" meaning that it promotes estrogen production as opposed to testosterone. Whey for boys, soy for girls. :)

Ritzol
02-10-2005, 05:35 PM
First of all soy is not just for women.

and I just researched a nutrition aritcle for a class last week on this very issue and soy was just as effective as whey in the promotion of gaining lean body mass, and it was actually viewed as more beneficial because of the amino acids it contained which whey did not.

Everyone will say something different, but one thing for sure soy is not just for women.... I'm sick of hearing that **** because it simply isn't true.

A REAL man would be comfortable consuming soy. Just as a REAL man doesn't have issues wearing pink shirts.

Dirt
02-10-2005, 05:45 PM
First of all soy is not just for women.

and I just researched a nutrition aritcle for a class last week on this very issue and soy was just as effective as whey in the promotion of gaining lean body mass, and it was actually viewed as more beneficial because of the amino acids it contained which whey did not.

Everyone will say something different, but one thing for sure soy is not just for women.... I'm sick of hearing that **** because it simply isn't true.

A REAL man would be comfortable consuming soy. Just as a REAL man doesn't have issues wearing pink shirts.

:withstupi

There is validity to the existence of phytoestrogens, but there is also a lot of paranoia. If you're living off the stuff maybe it'd be a concern, but supplementing it into your diet every once in a while won't kill you. If you're going to be paranoid about that, you may as well be paranoid about using plastics (specifically soft plastic) because they contain many synthetics that can mimic the effects of estrogens.

Geeper
02-10-2005, 05:48 PM
:withstupi

There is validity to the existence of phytoestrogens, but there is also a lot of paranoia. If you're living off the stuff maybe it'd be a concern, but supplementing it into your diet every once in a while won't kill you. If you're going to be paranoid about that, you may as well be paranoid about using plastics (specifically soft plastic) because they contain many synthetics that can mimic the effects of estrogens.

That was the main point of my post.... it's added in so many foods now we ARE basically living off it...why add a soy shake on top of that?

jazer80
02-10-2005, 06:20 PM
Soy blocks testosterone!!!!!! and that's exactly what your body need for muscle growth. So I'd limit my soy intake, big time. It also messes with your thyroid functions, which can slow or seed up your metabolism causing you to get fat and weak (slower metab) or not be able to gain muscle and be rake thin (faster metab).

Because of certain meds I'm on (my life depends on thyroid meds quite literally) I REALLY have to limit my soy intake and what I've found is it's amazing how much soy we eat without even knowing it. So many foods add soy to make the nutritional info look healthier, pick up almost anything packaged and read the ingredents, soy is in there. (bread, cakes, cookies, light mayo, cereals, pasta, protein bars, muffins, pancakes, salad dressings, coffee, butter, margarine, cheeses, canned meat, canned tuna, TV diners, boullion cubes, MRP, Soups, hot dogs, ice cream just for a FEW examples.... not all brands ect and sometimes it's hidden under another name)

SO adding a soy shake afterwards is just adding more and more soy to a huge amount of it you're already taking in without even knowing it.

Go with Whey (there's even usually a little soy in there) if you want more info just google "soy" there is TONS of info on it.
what exactly do you mean soy blocks test? please elaborate.

also the soy you're speaking of in many processed foods (i'd also like to mention that almost every food you listed shouldn't be being eaten by bodybuilders anyways) is soy lecithin. it's not used to add nutrition, but rather as an emulsifier. the amounts are significantly lower than you'd ever get from a scoop of soy protein. and i've never seen a whey protein that had soy added to it, and i work at GNC. which brands are you referring to?

i'm only questioning you so much because i consume lots of soy, and researched it before i began taking so much because of these rumors you always hear, so i'm curious about these things you're saying because i've never come across them.

Ritzol
02-10-2005, 06:21 PM
Don't sweat the small stuff.

Lifting increases testosterone levels in women does it not? You don't see women running around crying about it.

It's not a big deal... you aren't going to wake up tomorrow, next week, next month, or even next year with boobies and female genitals simply because you were consuming soy and *perhaps* it caused a rise in estrogen levels.

Why even debate it? If you're insecure about soy..then don't use it.

jazer80
02-10-2005, 06:22 PM
:withstupi

There is validity to the existence of phytoestrogens, but there is also a lot of paranoia. If you're living off the stuff maybe it'd be a concern, but supplementing it into your diet every once in a while won't kill you. If you're going to be paranoid about that, you may as well be paranoid about using plastics (specifically soft plastic) because they contain many synthetics that can mimic the effects of estrogens.
at what level do you suspect problems? i over a given month, my daily average is around two scoops, so about forty to fifty grams daily, and i've never noticed a problem. that was switching from mostly whey powder to mostly soy

jazer80
02-10-2005, 06:23 PM
Don't sweat the small stuff.

Lifting increases testosterone levels in women does it not? You don't see women running around crying about it.

It's not a big deal... you aren't going to wake up tomorrow, next week, next month, or even next year with boobies and female genitals simply because you were consuming soy and *perhaps* it caused a rise in estrogen levels.

Why even debate it? If you're insecure about soy..then don't use it.
it's worth debating because the truth should be told. if you were 100% sure soy wasn't going to cause hormone problems, it would be a great asset to have. it has a slow release profile, great amino acid makeup, and antioxidants. i find it very useful.

Dirt
02-10-2005, 07:16 PM
at what level do you suspect problems? i over a given month, my daily average is around two scoops, so about forty to fifty grams daily, and i've never noticed a problem. that was switching from mostly whey powder to mostly soy

I don't really suspect there would be a problem period. It's of my opinion the risks from such things are overstated. For argument's sake it's always best to say everything in moderation. A lot of these things matter in a developmental sense, ie. when someone is going through puberty, or are an infant, etc. After that's over the risk from synthetic hormones or even something like phytoestrogens is fairly hard to determine. I don't have any paranoia about soy or soy products in much the same way I don't worry about plastic wrap or grilling my meats too long or cooking my eggs at too high a temperature or using teflon pans, etc. etc.

waynis
02-10-2005, 09:08 PM
Taking in soy in every day diet should not cause any complications but supplementing extra soy has been talked about dropping testosterone levels and impairing brain function. A lot of it is talk. Similiar to aspartame putting holes in your brain. It's kind of a open air subject. I avoid extra supplementation of soy personally.

Geeper
02-11-2005, 04:20 AM
Just google "soy" and "problems" and you will get millions of answers.... but really as a thyroid patient I'm supposed to limit my soy drastically, (basically try to avoid it at all costs) because it does mess with the thyroid and totally blocks my medication from having an effect on the thyroid. Google "soy" and "thyroid" and there's a million more pages.

Soy is hidden in foods under many names
Gum arabic
Bulking agent
Carob
Emulsifier
Guar gum
Hydrolyzed vegetable protein (HVP)
Lecithin
Miso
MSG
Protein
Protein extender
Soy Flour
Soy nuts
Soy panthenol Soy protein
Soy protein isolate or concentrate
Soy sauce
Soybean
Soybean oil
Stabilizer
Starch
Textured vegetable protein
Thickener
Tofu
Vegetable broth
Vegetable gum
Vegetable starch

Almost all protein powders have one of this list in them.

I've called companies saying I'm under Dr's orders to stay away from soy and asked if there is any in their whey products and they simply suggest that if I'm alergic to soy I should stay away from their protein powders.

I still use 100% Whey all the time because they were the most friendly and honest.

TheGimp
02-11-2005, 04:48 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12094627


Soy milk intake in relation to serum sex hormone levels in British men.

Allen NE, Appleby PN, Davey GK, Key TJ.

Cancer Research UK Epidemiology Unit, University of Oxford, Oxford OX2 6HE, UK. naomi.allen@cancer.org.uk

Soy beans contain high levels of the isoflavones genistein and daidzein and their glycosides and have been implicated in the prevention of prostate cancer, possibly via their effects on sex hormone metabolism. The aim of this study was to assess the relation between dietary soy intake and sex hormone levels in a cross-sectional analysis of 696 men with a wide range of soy intakes. Soy milk intake was measured using a validated semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire, and serum hormone concentrations were measured by immunoassay. Multiple regression was used to investigate the association between soy milk intake, an index of isoflavone intake, and hormone levels after adjustment for pertinent confounders. Soy milk intake was not associated with serum concentrations of testosterone, free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide, sex hormone-binding globulin, or luteinizing hormone. These results suggest that soy milk intake, as a marker of isoflavone intake, is not associated with serum sex hormone concentrations among free-living Western men.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11880595


Hormonal effects of soy in premenopausal women and men.

Kurzer MS.

Department of Food Science and Nutrition, University of Minnesota, St. Paul, MN 55108, USA. mkurzer@umn.edu

Over the past few years, there has been increasing interest in the possible hormonal effects of soy and soy isoflavone consumption in both women and men. Soy consumption has been suggested to exert potentially cancer-preventive effects in premenopausal women, such as increased menstrual cycle length and sex hormone-binding globulin levels and decreased estrogen levels. There has been some concern that consumption of phytoestrogens might exert adverse effects on men's fertility, such as lowered testosterone levels and semen quality. ... Only three intervention studies reported hormonal effects of soy isoflavones in men. These recent studies in men consuming soyfoods or supplements containing 40--70 mg/d of soy isoflavones showed few effects on plasma hormones or semen quality. These data do not support concerns about effects on reproductive hormones and semen quality.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11767208


Effects of soy protein on levels of remnant-like particles cholesterol and vitamin E in healthy men.

Higashi K, Abata S, Iwamoto N, Ogura M, Yama****a T, Ishikawa O, Ohslzu F, Nakamura H.

First Department of Internal Medicine, National Defense Medical College, Tokorozawa, Saitama, Japan.

We determined the effects of soy protein isolate (SPI) intake on remnant-like particles (RLP), lipolytic enzymes, lipid transfer protein, transaminases, sex hormones, iron, calcium, and vitamin E in healthy men. In the first randomized, crossover experiment, 14 men were given either 20 g per day of SPI or nothing (control) for each 4-week segment. After 3 weeks of SPI intake, TG and RLP cholesterol levels were significantly lower than the baseline by 13.4% (p<0.05) and 9.8% (p<0.05), respectively. However, no significant change was found in total and low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol levels or the activities of lipoprotein lipase, hepatic lipase, cholesteryl ester transfer protein, and lecithin cholesterol acyltransferase. Although the levels of transaminases. testosterone, iron, and calcium did not change, the vitamin E level was reduced from the baseline by 9.7%, a significant decrease (p<0.01)...


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11303585


Effect of soymilk consumption on serum estrogen and androgen concentrations in Japanese men.

Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Shimizu H, Hayashi H, Akamatsu T, Murase K.

Department of Public Health, Gifu University School of Medicine, Japan.

... We conducted a randomized dietary intervention study to determine the effects of soy consumption on serum levels of steroid hormones in men. Thirty-five men were randomly assigned to either a soymilk-supplemented group or a control group. The men in the soy-supplemented group were asked to consume 400 ml of soymilk daily for 8 weeks. The men in the control group maintained their usual diet. Blood samples were obtained just before the initiation of the dietary period and thereafter every two weeks for 12 weeks. Changes in hormone concentrations were analyzed and compared between the two groups using the mixed linear regression model against weeks from the start of the dietary period. The mean (SD) soymilk intake estimated from dietary records during the dietary study period was 342.9 (SD, 74.2) ml in the soymilk-supplemented group. There was a significant difference between the two groups in terms of changes in serum estrone concentrations, which tended to decrease in the soy-supplemented group and increase in the control group over time. None of the other hormones measured (estradiol, total and free-testosterone, or sex hormone-binding globulin) showed any statistical difference between the two groups in terms of patterns of change. The results of the study indicate that soymilk consumption may modify circulating estrone concentrations in men.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10798211


Inverse association of soy product intake with serum androgen and estrogen concentrations in Japanese men.

Nagata C, Inaba S, Kawakami N, Kakizoe T, Shimizu H.

Department of Public Health, Gifu University School of Medicine, Japan.

The cross-sectional relationships of soy product intake and serum testosterone, estrone, estradiol, sex hormone-binding globulin, and dihydrotestosterone were examined in 69 Japanese men. Soy product intake was estimated from a semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire. Serum estradiol concentration was significantly inversely correlated with soy product intake (r = -0.32, p = 0.009), and serum estrone concentration was nonsignificantly inversely correlated with soy product intake (r = -0.24, p = 0.05) after controlling for age, body mass index, smoking status, and ethanol intake. Total and free testosterone concentrations were inversely correlated with soy product intake after controlling for the covariates, but these correlations were of border line significance (r = -0.25, p = 0.05 and r = -0.25, p = 0.06, respectively). Similar correlations were observed for these hormones with isoflavone intake from soy products. The data suggest that soy product intake may be associated with the endogenous hormone levels in Japanese men.

Summary: Soy will most likely not negatively impact your testosterone levels. The latter two studies even suggest that soy consumption could reduce estrogen levels in men.

sirsmiley
02-11-2005, 07:23 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12094627



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11880595



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11767208



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11303585



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10798211



Summary: Soy will most likely not negatively impact your testosterone levels. The latter two studies even suggest that soy consumption could reduce estrogen levels in men.


well the thing i got here only lasts like 18 days worth so ill just use it and then switch to whey =)

no biggie

jazer80
02-11-2005, 08:43 AM
I've called companies saying I'm under Dr's orders to stay away from soy and asked if there is any in their whey products and they simply suggest that if I'm alergic to soy I should stay away from their protein powders.

they will say that because most process lots of stuff in the same plant. if you asked them about nuts or eggs they would likely have said the same. i am surprised about that list, although many had soy in their name, and others were generalizations (i know not every whey protein has soy in it). either way, most of that list is not what i'd expect to see on most bodybuilder's plates

jazer80
02-11-2005, 08:46 AM
thanks gimp. next time someone starts in talking **** about soy i'll just link to this thread

malkore
02-11-2005, 09:33 AM
lots of people report bloating when they take soy protein. I tend to avoid it as a supplement.
But I do buy morningstar brand breafast crumbles, which contain small amounts of soy and vegetable protein, but I only use a half serving to make my eggs more diverse.

crazedwombat
02-11-2005, 11:44 AM
Don't sweat the small stuff.

Lifting increases testosterone levels in women does it not? You don't see women running around crying about it.

It's not a big deal... you aren't going to wake up tomorrow, next week, next month, or even next year with boobies and female genitals simply because you were consuming soy and *perhaps* it caused a rise in estrogen levels.

Why even debate it? If you're insecure about soy..then don't use it.



cause I dont want to watch a chick flick and break out crying when the guy leaves the girl...so I have to keep my estrogen levels in check ;)

jazer80
02-11-2005, 01:20 PM
haha