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spanky33
03-09-2005, 07:29 PM
Hey everyone,
I just signed up on this site, and it's been really informative so far. I have a few questions and I was hoping people with experience could help me out.
I used to be a fatter guy (5'8" 183 lbs, 22% fat), and about 2 years ago, I started jogging daily. I went down to about 130lbs 8% fat. I followed a low fat diet and exercised daily.
I've held this new weight for about a year now. I want to bulk up a bit, but I know that my body has the potential to store fat quickly. Other people have told me that with the amount of exercising I do, I could stand to eat more and put on some weight, and it probably wont store as fat. But I'm still afraid that my body will store it as fat.

I've changed my routine a bit. Now I do free weights on Tuesday Thursday and Saturday (for about an hour each day), and I jog on all the other days for about 40 minutes. At first I saw no results of weight gain, so I started to really pack it in. And I'm ALWAYS hungry so its easy for me. But after about 6 weeks, I gained about 6 pounds. It's about 3 lbs fat and 3 lbs muscle. (But I dont look like I've put on any fat, I just have broader shoulders and bigger biceps)

Has anyone else gone through this experience? Will I gain fat if I pack in a lot of food but keep working out everyday and do cardio as well? Any general advice would help.

Also, during the week (monday-friday) I eat extremely healthy foods (i.e tuna, whole wheat bread with flax, lots of low fat milk, etc...) but I cheat on the weekends. Really, that's where my surplus of calories come from. Is it bad to pack in a lot of calories at once on teh weekends, and then work out all week??
Thanks

AdmiralDan
03-09-2005, 07:59 PM
what is your routine like? if you eat too much then you will put on fat rather than muscle. you have to work with your diet and see what your body needs to grow as far as for food intake. what are your cheat days like? it would probably be better to spread the calories out throughout the week though

spanky33
03-09-2005, 08:13 PM
right now i work pretty much every muscle group in a session. I do things like squats, push ups, deadlifts, calf raises, curls, ...basically a bunch of different muscles. by the end I'm pretty tired, and the next day I'm sore. I know this isn't the best work out routine, but for now, since I'm new it at, it seems to be working for me, and I'm seeing results.

my cheat days have been horrible lately (because there have been birthdays and stuff like that, lotsa cake and ice cream and crap like that). From now on I'll keep even my cheat days clean (i.e high protein foods).

My main concern is that I can really eat a lot, but people say that as long as I eat healthy, most of my weight gain will be muscle. My logic tells me eating too much of anything (even tuna) can make you fat.

Podcore
03-09-2005, 08:31 PM
I too was a fatty, In high school i never lifted weights or any of that and I was tall 6'3" so i was a semi sasquach for a highschool kid. I have been runng and boxing on the weekends and lifting weights during the weekdays for about 4 years now. I didnt know about the bulk and cut cycle until under a year ago. I am starting to see improvement differently no longer the "i am loosing some fat" not its the "I am turning into an ass kicker". I am on my first real bulk (scary your first time) I notice the more good clean food I eat, the more i can lift. And that is progress to me, Only recently( this week) I have been eating until I am almost sick. And drinking tons of water (thats the trick) and everymorning I look and feel better and every night at the gym I notice the power in the lifts. Another thing that i notice from it, is when i decide to start cutting I will be glad. Food makes me mad. EAT EAT EAT BAH. But i havent gotten the gross fat back, I have gained some fat from the bulk but its only temporary. Dont Fear the Food.

spanky33
03-09-2005, 08:45 PM
Thanks for the response.
How much fat have you gained, and how long have you been bulking? After 6 weeks, I'm already starting to lose my abs...I guess you're right, its tough to bulk the first time cuz I'm afraid of fat gain. I'm more scared becuz I know from the past that my body can easily store fat, and also I never really feel full. So I know I can easily pack away 6000 calories a day worth of tuna if i wanted to.
Eating is no prob for me.

AdmiralDan
03-09-2005, 09:06 PM
you are right about too much of anything making you fat. if you want to put on muscle and not fat, cut out the crazy cheat days. let your diet(minus cheat days) run a week or two. if you don't gain any weight, add 2-300 cals. repeat this process until you are gaining at a rate you like(ie a decent amount of muscle each week and little to no fat).

spanky33
03-09-2005, 09:13 PM
I stopped counting calories a little while ago cuz it started driving me crazy. but what I could do is stick to my diet now, and if I dont gain weight, just add a meal in. I eat about 6 small meals a day right now on my good days.

Shao-LiN
03-09-2005, 09:57 PM
what is your routine like? if you eat too much then you will put on fat rather than muscle. you have to work with your diet and see what your body needs to grow as far as for food intake. what are your cheat days like? it would probably be better to spread the calories out throughout the week though

You won't put on fat RATHER than muscle, but you may put on more fat than if you controlled your caloric intake.

Built
03-09-2005, 10:36 PM
I might suggest breaking up your workouts into a split routine.

You can most certainly get fatter if you eat too much, even with all the exercise.

What are you eating now? If you aren't sure, I'd suggest going to www.fitday.com and tracking for a few days to see if your macronutrients are in line.

Low fat might be a good way to drop calories, but it often isn't the best way to keep weight off, even with a lot of cardio.

Trust someone who learned this the hard way.

spanky33
03-09-2005, 10:44 PM
yea i eat more fat now. when i was losing weight i literally got 3-5% of my diet from fat. nothing more. but now i incorporate some fat into my diet. for example, i dont buy regular whole wheat bread, i buy the ones with flaxseeds (and they're relatively high in omega-3 and omega-6 oils, 5.5 grams per serving).
My problem is that I'm never full, so i dont know when to stop eating, especially now that I want to gain some muscle, but not fat...

Shao-LiN
03-09-2005, 11:10 PM
An easy way is to design a diet with a set amount of calories and stick to it.

Built
03-09-2005, 11:18 PM
I get that "never full" feeling if my fats drop below 30-40% of total cals, even on 1.5+g protein per day.

If I keep fats a bit higher, and watch the carbs (except for post-lifting), I'm fine.

Give you a f'rinstance:

From fitday, two days this week that "felt" the same:



Calories Eaten Today
source grams cals %total
Total: 2298
Fat: 62 555 25%
Sat: 16 145 6%
Poly: 10 90 4%
Mono: 18 162 7%
Carbs: 182 635 28%
Fiber: 23 0 0%
Protein: 268 1073 47%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%

(Sunday, leg day) (could EASILY have eaten more)

and

Calories Eaten Today
source grams cals %total
Total: 1617
Fat: 77 696 44%
Sat: 28 253 16%
Poly: 12 107 7%
Mono: 30 273 17%
Carbs: 35 99 6%
Fiber: 10 0 0%
Protein: 197 786 50%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%

(Monday, moderate cardio/no lifting day)

Vido
03-10-2005, 12:50 AM
I get that "never full" feeling if my fats drop below 30-40% of total cals, even on 1.5+g protein per day.

To be honest, I've just recently gone back to a higher fat diet and I feel the same way.

spanky33
03-10-2005, 07:37 AM
oh maybe that's why...so I should try higher fat..
right now fat makes up maybe 15%.
I'll take it up a bit. I just hope it doesn't make me fat. Maybe I'll buy some peanut butter.

Do you think eating more fat during the week will help me stop eating so much junk on the weekend?

Vido
03-10-2005, 12:06 PM
oh maybe that's why...so I should try higher fat..
right now fat makes up maybe 15%.
I'll take it up a bit. I just hope it doesn't make me fat. Maybe I'll buy some peanut butter.

Do you think eating more fat during the week will help me stop eating so much junk on the weekend?

I haven't had a single craving since I upped my fat intake. I'm not really sure why I ever came off this type of diet in the first place.

Oh, and fat won't make you fat. Excess calories will make you fat.

Built
03-10-2005, 12:08 PM
Word.

:)

spanky33
03-10-2005, 03:48 PM
I know fat wont make you fat. But excess fat becomes body fat much easier than the other two nutrients.
Also, I read this interesting article about mice being fed equal calories, but one group high fat, one group high carbs. The high fat group grew obese...the high carb group was normal.
But anyway, I will try eating more fat. Originally, I figured more fat = less quantity food, and since I'm always hungry, that didn't seem like the step to go.

We'll see...

Built
03-10-2005, 03:51 PM
I've seen studies that showed the exact opposite.

Bottom line: go with what works.

Podcore
03-10-2005, 06:03 PM
WOW! this is why I like this place. I think I will up my fat intake a little, Peanut butter sounds good ( I miss it).

spanky33
03-10-2005, 06:21 PM
but nutella tastes so much better! lol

Vido
03-10-2005, 07:33 PM
I know fat wont make you fat. But excess fat becomes body fat much easier than the other two nutrients.

This is true in theory and I really can't explain why it seems different in practice, at least for some people . However, a lot of people (especially those who used to be fat) seem to have a lot more trouble with carbs. I think it's due to insulin sensitivity issues.

spanky33
03-10-2005, 07:40 PM
hmm. no while i was losing weight, about 80% of my diet was carbs. i ate a ton of bread and pasta, and did a ton of cardio...
but then again i was never obese. I think what you say is true for obese ppl who lose weight.
and vido, you say 'and I really can't explain why it seems different in practice'.
what do u mean by that? are you saying you eat a lot of fat but dont gain fat? Or is this people you know?

Built
03-10-2005, 08:06 PM
Hi carb, low calorie diets tend to make you lose more muscle mass than higher fat, higher protein, lower carb and calorie diets.

I've done it both ways. The first way was the low-fat route. Dropped a whole pile of weight fast while doing cardio, but completely catabolized my LBM and spent the next 20 years with a totally screwed metabolism.

And yes, indeed, there are insulin sensitivity issues - the freakish hunger that happens to us IR folks on low-fat precludes calorie restriction. Lower carb, higher fat seems to work a lot better in these cases, even though it means less food, volume-wise.

Vido
03-10-2005, 08:19 PM
hmm. no while i was losing weight, about 80% of my diet was carbs. i ate a ton of bread and pasta, and did a ton of cardio...
but then again i was never obese. I think what you say is true for obese ppl who lose weight.

Nope, I was referring to people with less than stellar metabolisms, who as a result were probably overweight as kids because they knew nothing about nutrition. Yes, I fall into that category.


and vido, you say 'and I really can't explain why it seems different in practice'.
what do u mean by that? are you saying you eat a lot of fat but dont gain fat? Or is this people you know?

I'm saying that keeping total calories and protein levels constant, I will look, perform, and feel better with a higher ratio of fat:carbs.

There was a thread recently with a sample bulking diet proposed by PowermanDL. I don't care to dig it up but it worked out to be something along the lines of 8000 calories, 500g protein and 600g fat with only about 250g carbs (250g carbs isn't really "that" few, but I say "only" when comparing it to the other macros). He then said if he tried an 8000 calorie diet with more carbs in it, he'd a) gain more fat and b) have more digestion issues. One of the other more respected members of the board, Borris, agreed. So there's a couple examples of people from this board, and I have seen it in real life as well.

spanky33
03-10-2005, 08:21 PM
thanks a lot built. u sound like u have good experience and knowledge behind you. so i'll take your word for it.
thanks for your help

spanky33
03-10-2005, 08:23 PM
and thank you vido...

Vido
03-10-2005, 08:28 PM
Hi carb, low calorie diets tend to make you lose more muscle mass than higher fat, higher protein, lower carb and calorie diets.

The only thing I don't like about this statement is the fact that I'm not sure you are keeping protein levels constant. Protein is the most critical macronutrient when in a caloric deficit. If you are eating a "higher protein" diet (like you mentioned in the second case) that's going to preserve more muscle, regardless of how you ration the rest of your calories.

Built
03-10-2005, 08:58 PM
I'm given to understand that you need more protein to protect muscle mass on low-fat than low-carb. Can't remember the source, but I seem to recall reading a good argument for this somewhere recently. I believe it had something to do with higher fat (and higher protein, of course) diets being protein sparing. Of course, this all falls apart if you try to go low carb AND low fat - recipe for muscle-burning, as it puts the body into a protein-oxidative state.

On keto ratios, I try for at least .8g - 1.2g protein per pound, which seems to be fairly standard. On low fat, it's usually over 1.5g per pound.

Edited to add:

On keto, I make sure I get at LEAST 40% of cals from fat to prevent muscle-burning (and for comfort).

On higher-carb (moderate carb by most standards), I keep fats at about 30-40% of cals, but this is just for comfort.

Vido
03-11-2005, 12:23 AM
I'm given to understand that you need more protein to protect muscle mass on low-fat than low-carb. Can't remember the source, but I seem to recall reading a good argument for this somewhere recently. I believe it had something to do with higher fat (and higher protein, of course) diets being protein sparing. Of course, this all falls apart if you try to go low carb AND low fat - recipe for muscle-burning, as it puts the body into a protein-oxidative state.

On keto ratios, I try for at least .8g - 1.2g protein per pound, which seems to be fairly standard. On low fat, it's usually over 1.5g per pound.

Interesting stuff. I can't comment either way about what type of diet is most protein-sparing. I know I've read stuff in the past but it's just completely alluding my mind right now.

I can, however, comment on low carb AND low fat diets, and I'll say that you'd be wise not to discredit them entirely. Like I said in my post above, when in a caloric deficit the most important macronutrient is protein. As long as you keep a positive nitrogen balance, muscle loss will be kept at a minimum and there's no better way to create a large deficit than not eat both fat and carbs. You're new to the site, but stick around and you should see the terms "UD2" and "PSMF" thrown around quite a bit...2 best diets out there imo, not long-term, but for cutting.


On keto, I make sure I get at LEAST 40% of cals from fat to prevent muscle-burning (and for comfort).

On higher-carb (moderate carb by most standards), I keep fats at about 30-40% of cals, but this is just for comfort.

I've never tried a keto diet, but I thought you had to get something like 70-80% of your calories from fat (maybe not quite this high, but certainly higher than 40%) because too much protein can kick you out of ketosis. Likewise, I wouldn't really call a diet where I'm getting 30-40% of my calories from fat "high-carb", but I understand what you mean.