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slapshot111
03-14-2005, 05:09 PM
Here it is, I'm trying to get the excess fat around my stomach off, so I'm on a low carb diet. I'm 16 205 lbs. 6' 1". And if it matters I bench 185 x1, deadlift 200 x1, and Squat 210 x1. I work out every other day with about 10 minutes of cardio before every workout. Here's a screen shot of my fitday page.

Careful Dial-up users, 30 kb.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/972738/Untitled-1.gif

Built
03-14-2005, 05:16 PM
Do your cardio AFTER you lift, not before. Burns more fat, builds more muscle.

Are you taking in any carbs at all? Anything targeted around your lifting?

slapshot111
03-14-2005, 05:22 PM
Do your cardio AFTER you lift, not before. Burns more fat, builds more muscle.

Are you taking in any carbs at all? Anything targeted around your lifting?

Nope. When should I eat my carbs?

Built
03-14-2005, 05:35 PM
The research all says dextrose with protein, right after you lift.

The 10 minutes of moderate, steady-state cardio right after you lift will burn off the FFAs mobilized from the lifting.

Forgive my bluntness, but how fat are you? I had trouble with post-workout carbs while I was fat. While the peer-reviewed research (which I really do trust) all speaks of the “anabolic window” after a lifting workout, and this is how I do it now, but while I was fatter, post-lifting carbs just seemed to “not work” for me. I never fully understood why, but I’m not the only one who has had this experience. It might have had something to do with the otherwise very high fats I was consuming on what was otherwise straight low-carb.

You could try a TKD-type approach – 20-40g of fast carb (ie dextrose) about 15-30 minutes before you lift. See how that works, then split it – half before, half after. If this is still okay, try it all afterward.

Then go right back to low carb for the rest of the day.

On cardio-only days, stick to low carb (unless you do HIIT, at which point, feed it like lifting).

tholian8
03-14-2005, 05:52 PM
I never fully understood why, but I’m not the only one who has had this experience.

No, you're not. I'm still fat (I'm a powerlifter, I can be fat if I want to LOL), but when I'm trying to lose weight I CANNOT do post-lifting carbs. They slow down the weight loss and they make me really hungry for the next meal.

What I try to do is take up to 50g carb pre-workout, and then a plain protein shake after. It seems to work.

AdmiralDan
03-14-2005, 06:26 PM
low carb is fine despite the way build talks about it. many people get great results from low carb. you do need to increase your protein though. your post thing said that you were getting like 100 grams in. at your weight, you should get at least 200 grams in, probably more while cutting in order to keep as much muscle as possible

slapshot111
03-14-2005, 06:34 PM
I just used the tape measure method of measuring body fat and it said 14.9% give or take 3%.

slapshot111
03-14-2005, 06:35 PM
low carb is fine despite the way build talks about it. many people get great results from low carb. you do need to increase your protein though. your post thing said that you were getting like 100 grams in. at your weight, you should get at least 200 grams in, probably more while cutting in order to keep as much muscle as possible

Is Whey an okay source? If it is, what type and where should I buy from?

And what is dextrose?

Built
03-14-2005, 06:37 PM
What do you mean "despite" the way I talk about it? It's how I lost the lion's share of the fat I dropped.

And it's BUILT. I'm BUILT.

LOL!

Slapshot, for low-carb, as long as your fats are high (like, 50-65% of total cals), you won't need as much protein as you would on higher carbs. I would still shoot for 0.8-1.2g per pound goal weight, though. Just be sure to keep your fats up or you risk being in a protein oxidative state and burning off muscle.

And do research TKD. I really liked TKD when I was shedding the biggest portion of my excess bodyfat. It was like having the best of both (low and high carb) worlds.

Built
03-14-2005, 06:38 PM
Whey is fine for pre/post lifting. I'd avoid it otherwise on low carb. Buy something low carb, my personal preference is chocolate. Mix it with water.

slapshot111
03-14-2005, 06:43 PM
Okay, and about TDK, where can I find some info on it?

Built
03-14-2005, 06:48 PM
Here's some... http://www.beyondlowcarb.net/index.php?topic=50.0

thajeepster
03-14-2005, 06:52 PM
is that one meal or one day? I'd have no energy to do anything, much less lift on that little calories.

slapshot111
03-14-2005, 07:03 PM
Built,

So the basic concept is eat something like a bagel a half an hour before working out? Is this better for just getting off the low carb diet, so you don't gain all the weight back? Does this allow muscle building and fat burning at the same time?

AdmiralDan
03-14-2005, 07:39 PM
sorry for mispelling your name built. anyway, what i meant is that plenty of people have great success with no carbs. it seemed that you were against his approach of very low carbs. you say that a tkd worked best for you, but that doesn't mean it will work best for him, or the next guy. i was trying to help him with the diet he is currently on whereas you seem to be pushing him to change. his diet may not be the best but i beleive that the only way for him to find that is for him to try it and see how it works. that process of experimenting with different things and monitoring your body's reaction is, i believe, one of the most important parts of training and one of the most neglected. people take what some people say here as 100% correct. i try my best to give general advise, allowing for the person to experiment with things and find what works for them.

to answer the question about whey, it would work. it is simply protein. it would be pretty much the same as eating a can of tuna or chicken, except that the whey will digest faster than the other options

Built
03-14-2005, 09:12 PM
Trust me, I know a great deal about ketogenic diets. Three and a half years ago, I was on Metformin for Insulin Resistance, and struggling with my weight. My cholesterol was already through the roof in my early thirties. If I hadn't learned about low carb and lifting, I'd probably be well over 300 pounds by now - I was blowing up like a balloon on my low-fat-diet/all cardio regime.

I lost most of the weight on straight Atkins, because I didn't know any better. After 8 months and about 20 lbs, I got curious, and started researching carbs with lifting on the internet, where I found CKD and TKD. CKD was NOT for me, but TKD worked like a hot damn.

I could have had faster and more satisfying results if I had known about TKD sooner. TKD is basically straight Atkins with a pre or post lifting carb snack, and if you're lifting, you'll get better results that way than you will on straight low carb.

And you're just a little off about the whey. While it is simply protein, on a low carb diet, whey can knock you out of ketosis, even with no carbs. I've had it happen. I didn't know WHY until much later in my adventures in body recomposition.

Whey is a very small molecule protein - it digests very quickly. That's why it's ideal for the "anabolic window" immediately following lifting - it gets into the muscle cells fast. But it tends to leave you feeling hungry within an hour - I believe it can actually stimulate an insulin response, even with no carbs at all. Not so great as a main protein source for other times of the day, especially if you're relying on ketosis for appetite suppression.

Tuna or chicken are whole foods, and take longer to digest, so they're better options for main sources of protein, especially while trying to drop bodyfat.

Built
03-14-2005, 09:13 PM
is that one meal or one day? I'd have no energy to do anything, much less lift on that little calories.

???


Why would anyone only eat one meal a day?

Built
03-14-2005, 09:14 PM
Built,

So the basic concept is eat something like a bagel a half an hour before working out? Is this better for just getting off the low carb diet, so you don't gain all the weight back? Does this allow muscle building and fat burning at the same time?

Yes, that would work just fine. You can even have a little jam on it - just no butter.

If you take in simple carbs, get 'em in within a half hour of beginning to lift. If they're more complex carbs, I'd wait closer to an hour, just based on personal experience.

It feels like you're cheating. I know I REALLY found myself looking forward to lifting days!

AdmiralDan
03-15-2005, 05:38 AM
Trust me, I know a great deal about ketogenic diets. Three and a half years ago, I was on Metformin for Insulin Resistance, and struggling with my weight. My cholesterol was already through the roof in my early thirties. If I hadn't learned about low carb and lifting, I'd probably be well over 300 pounds by now - I was blowing up like a balloon on my low-fat-diet/all cardio regime.

I lost most of the weight on straight Atkins, because I didn't know any better. After 8 months and about 20 lbs, I got curious, and started researching carbs with lifting on the internet, where I found CKD and TKD. CKD was NOT for me, but TKD worked like a hot damn.

I could have had faster and more satisfying results if I had known about TKD sooner. TKD is basically straight Atkins with a pre or post lifting carb snack, and if you're lifting, you'll get better results that way than you will on straight low carb.

And you're just a little off about the whey. While it is simply protein, on a low carb diet, whey can knock you out of ketosis, even with no carbs. I've had it happen. I didn't know WHY until much later in my adventures in body recomposition.

Whey is a very small molecule protein - it digests very quickly. That's why it's ideal for the "anabolic window" immediately following lifting - it gets into the muscle cells fast. But it tends to leave you feeling hungry within an hour - I believe it can actually stimulate an insulin response, even with no carbs at all. Not so great as a main protein source for other times of the day, especially if you're relying on ketosis for appetite suppression.

Tuna or chicken are whole foods, and take longer to digest, so they're better options for main sources of protein, especially while trying to drop bodyfat.

congradulations on the improvement, but that wasn't the point of my post. the point was he wanted help with his current diet and you suggested a completely different diet. you elaborate on how it was best for you and how you saw better results with the tkd than with atkins. i'm not even going to start with atkins, but you ignored what i said earlier. just because it worked better for you doesn't mean it will work better for him. it is great that you are trying to spread your knowledge, as that is why we are here, but you are still trying to give him another diet rather than fixing the one he has

as far as for the protein, i think it is more important for him to get protien in no matter what the type. as a college student, i have to sometimes rely on the whey for a considerable amount of protein. i know that it isn't ideal but based on several factors, including cost and convenience, it does the job. he was at under 100 grams of protein and he is over 200. in my opinoin, based on my experience and what i have read, i felt that he needed some type of protein, in his diet. if it had to be whey, then so be it.

Vido
03-15-2005, 12:05 PM
Someone remind me what the difference is between a TKD and Atkins and I'll throw in my 2 cents.


i know that it isn't ideal but based on several factors, including cost and convenience, it does the job. he was at under 100 grams of protein and he is over 200. in my opinoin, based on my experience and what i have read, i felt that he needed some type of protein, in his diet. if it had to be whey, then so be it.

You're right. It's certainly not ideal, but it's better than nothing. I personally see no reason why he can't find better sources though.

Built
03-15-2005, 12:45 PM
TKD is targeted ketogenic dieting - basically Atkins with pre and/or post lifting carbs targeted around lifting, but at no other times.

Built
03-15-2005, 12:46 PM
Admiral Dan, it's not a completely different diet - it's a small tweak on Atkins that works better than straight Atkins on lifters. Atkins is for sedentary people. Lifters aren't sedentary.

Edited to add: he DID ask for help on his diet. It's the title of this thread.

Carb-cycling strategies can work very well for those who use low or lower-carb to help drop fat. TKD is the least invasive of these carb-cycling strategies, since you get back into ketosis later that day. It's a nice, safe place to begin.

AdmiralDan
03-15-2005, 01:36 PM
Admiral Dan, it's not a completely different diet

i guess that is a matter of opinion. his diet seemed to contain almost no carbs, and the ones it did contain came mainly from lettuce, dressing, eggs, and cheese, all of which i don't really consider carb sources. you are suggesting adding carbs through tkd, which i see as a different diet. i see him adding carbs as changing diets, not just altering his current diet. apparently we have a difference of opinon.

Built
03-15-2005, 01:47 PM
They're targeted (hence the name) around the lifts. It's otherwise straight ketogenic dieting: the non-lifting days are straight low-carb. No change whatsoever.

And it's not a large amount of carb around this anabolic window (you DO know about the anabolic window, right? To take advantage of the increased insulin sensitivity of the muscle and the decreased insulin sensitivity of the fat cells after lifting?).

Usually in the range of 20-60g of carb, preferrably fast carb (ie dextrose or dextrose/maltodextrin). The carb here is almost treated more like a nutritional/ergogenic supplement than a food because it's strictly for lifting.

I suggested it because it's such a small deviation from a pure low-carb diet, and it's more beneficial from a body-composition perspective than straight low-carb dieting for anyone who lifts.

If you don't know this, do some research.

AdmiralDan
03-15-2005, 01:52 PM
They're targeted (hence the name) around the lifts. It's otherwise straight ketogenic dieting: the non-lifting days are straight low-carb. No change whatsoever.

And it's not a large amount of carb around this anabolic window (you DO know about the anabolic window, right? To take advantage of the increased insulin sensitivity of the muscle and the decreased insulin sensitivity of the fat cells after lifting?).

Usually in the range of 20-60g of carb, preferrably fast carb (ie dextrose or dextrose/maltodextrin). The carb here is almost treated more like a nutritional/ergogenic supplement than a food because it's strictly for lifting.

I suggested it because it's such a small deviation from a pure low-carb diet, and it's more beneficial from a body-composition perspective than straight low-carb dieting for anyone who lifts.

If you don't know this, do some research.


do you always assume that your audience is stupid? i may not know everything but i do understand the diets you are speaking of. i have researched them, mabye not to the extent of someone who is on the diet, but i have researched them. and i know that the idea of a tkd diet is to supply carbs around a workout, but i still feel that they are different diets. that is a difference of opinion. i stated that earlier and now you insult me for a difference of opinion. what is up with that?

Built
03-15-2005, 01:55 PM
I didn't think you were stupid, but I do appear to know more about this particular type of diet than you do. Sorry if this threatens you.

AdmiralDan
03-15-2005, 02:10 PM
i do not feel threatened. i hope that someone more than twice my age knows more than me. i've been working out for 4-5 years, and only recently have i found the inefficiency of my ways. wbb(along with many other things) has helped me to learn a lot but it is people like you that make me second guess myself. however rare, they are out there. i don't want to become a miserable person who is obsessed with putting down those who are weaker or less knowledgable then myself. you have done just that. i have respect for my elders. but the way you have treated me and insulted me has caused me to lose respect for you

Built
03-15-2005, 02:20 PM
Dan, let's get out of the name-calling business, okay? I never meant to insult you.

Slapshot, you have heard two different opinions. One, by someone who is probably closer to your age and male, one, by a middle-aged woman who has had to really struggle to control her weight.

You'll have to find your own path. At least there's a lot of information here - it helps narrow the scope of your search.

Best of luck.

tholian8
03-15-2005, 02:21 PM
i don't want to become a miserable person who is obsessed with putting down those who are weaker or less knowledgable then myself. you have done just that.

Whoa! Are you suggesting that Built is an example of such a miserable and obsessed person!?

Edited: Never mind. Let's not go any further along this line.

Vido
03-15-2005, 02:22 PM
Ok, quit the bantering and get this back on track.


Admiral Dan, it's not a completely different diet - it's a small tweak on Atkins that works better than straight Atkins on lifters. Atkins is for sedentary people. Lifters aren't sedentary.

I agree with this. Whether one considers the addition of a carb meal or two a large change in this guy's diet or a small one is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is it makes sense to do so. Atkins was never a diet intended for people who lift weights. While it does have its merits over some other types of diets, it is far from optimal.

That being said, ketosis is not a necessary condition for weight loss, or even the most intelligent one imo. I would say TKD is a step-up from Atkins, but still worse than a CKD, and none of the aforementioned can touch UD2 or PSMF.

Built
03-15-2005, 02:23 PM
I absolutely agree, ViDo.

The one good thing about ketosis is that it blunts hunger, which can be very helpful when dieting, especially if you're insulin resistant like I am.

Vido
03-15-2005, 02:27 PM
Fair enough. Killing hunger pangs is a key aspect of any diet, with the inability to do so being the #1 reason people will quit.

Dirt
03-15-2005, 02:43 PM
I agree with this. Whether one considers the addition of a carb meal or two a large change in this guy's diet or a small one is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is it makes sense to do so. Atkins was never a diet intended for people who lift weights. While it does have its merits over some other types of diets, it is far from optimal.

That being said, ketosis is not a necessary condition for weight loss, or even the most intelligent one imo. I would say TKD is a step-up from Atkins, but still worse than a CKD, and none of the aforementioned can touch UD2 or PSMF.

:withstupi

Vido hit the nail on the head. The thing is, everything Built suggested is good as well and definitely within the topic of the original post. The guy was looking for help with his diet and she suggested he look into TKD. As far as weightlifting/bodybuilding go Atkins is probably the worst style of diet there is. You can go low carb to a degree, but you'll be hindering your progress and likely costing yourself muscle by going with Atkins over TKD, CKD, PSMF, UD2.0, etc.

As far as what I think about his diet, I'd advise a change as well. Pre-workout and post workout carbs are important (hell even during workout). If you're ignoring them I believe you are seriously selling yourself short.

Personally I don't really think Built came off harsh on you at all AdmiralDan, even if you feel she did it's an internet message board, you can't take it all that seriously. People are bound to have differing opinions and different ways of conveying them.

IZich
03-15-2005, 02:55 PM
Can someome type out a link towards more info on CKD? Thx.

Built
03-15-2005, 02:56 PM
Try here: http://www.c-k-d.com/

ReelBigFish
03-15-2005, 03:48 PM
I did atkins before i got into lifting but i was very active while doing it. Trust me it is not a muscle sparing diet.

DoUgL@S
03-15-2005, 05:12 PM
TKD is targeted ketogenic dieting - basically Atkins with pre and/or post lifting carbs targeted around lifting, but at no other times.

Actually there is a significant difference between Atkins and a TDK.

Atkins promotes initially starting of eating minimal amount of carbs (<20 or so) to facilitate the shift into ketosis. After the first 2 weeks you are supposed to begin increasing carb intake until you stop loosing weight. Depending on a number of factors your carb intake can vary from minimal (30g or less) to moderate (100 g +). This diet is meant for those who would like to prevent insulin spikes throughout the day, and is better suited for individuals who do not resistance train IMHO.

A TKD is basically like the first 2 weeks of Atkins, with carbs only around your workouts. If you do pre and post wo carbs you maybe taking in ~100 g carbs depending on bodyweight. The rest of the day minimal carbs. This diet intentionaly spikes insulin around a workout to take advantage of the anabolic window afforded by resistance training.

DoUgL@S
03-15-2005, 05:17 PM
Can someome type out a link towards more info on CKD? Thx.

Lyle's site has a ton of info on TKD, CKD, PMSF and the ever so famous UD2. Aside from the info, you can purchase "The Ketogenic Diet," it is a good read. All can be found at http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/

Built
03-15-2005, 05:18 PM
I'll stand corrected. It's like Atkins Induction, plus the targeted carbs around the anabolic window, exactly as douglas suggests.

When most people think "Atkins" they're really thinking "induction". I did do Atkins "by the book" when I did it. I use ther term like shorthand, which is a bit of a "lie we tell to children", but I think I was fairly clear nonetheless. I should probably have said ketogenic throughout.

:)

Pup
03-15-2005, 06:58 PM
That being said, ketosis is not a necessary condition for weight loss, or even the most intelligent one imo. I would say TKD is a step-up from Atkins, but still worse than a CKD, and none of the aforementioned can touch UD2 or PSMF.

I'm not so sure Vido. UD2 isn't something you can stay on for a 12 week contest prep, so i wouldn't say it blows CKD out of the water. As for PSMF, as far as i'm concerned its a diet for people who are obese, it can be used by bodybuilders or strength athletes to do a quick cut or break through a diet plateau...but again, the uses for these diets are varied, i think even lyle has touched on this.

As for the rest of this thread, i do agree with your points and the points built made about the basic difference b/w atkins and TKD and the relative similarities b/w most of the ketogenic style diets that are out there. Much of this debate has been semantics IMHO.

Vido
03-15-2005, 07:10 PM
I'm not so sure Vido. UD2 isn't something you can stay on for a 12 week contest prep, so i wouldn't say it blows CKD out of the water.

Aside from maybe the week or two right before the show (when you have to start carb and sodium depleting and all that fun stuff), I don't see why you couldn't do it for contest prep.


As for PSMF, as far as i'm concerned its a diet for people who are obese, it can be used by bodybuilders or strength athletes to do a quick cut or break through a diet plateau...but again, the uses for these diets are varied, i think even lyle has touched on this.

I'm not talking about making one of these diets a lifestyle. I suppose CKD would be a lot better suited for that. I don't see any reason why someone would want to "cut" indefinitely though.

I also don't really like PSMF in its actual form to be honest. I think it needs to be modified to better accomodate training and stay away from strength loss. I think a modified PSMF works well, even at "lower" bodyfat levels (maybe not sub-10%, but I wouldn't restrict it to the obese).