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persiankitty
03-23-2005, 12:15 PM
Iím a 25-year-old female with a long history of eating disorders.
I started working with a trainer in August and Iím not getting the results I expected.
I weight train two days a week, and do an hour cardio 5 times a week.
My calorie intake is b/n 1050-1150.
30% fat
40% carbs
30% protein
I use fitday and I plan my meals.
Iím really frustratedÖIíve only gone from 22.5% body fat to 19.8%
My goal is to be at 15%. Some tell me that my calorie intake is too low and that Iím in starvation mode, my trainer does not agreeÖ.and neither does my doctor. I had blood work done and my thyroid is ok.
What do I need to do?

Geeper
03-23-2005, 12:38 PM
Is your fitday public? We might be able to see a little better.... Are you counting calories for EVERYTHING you put in your mouth including drinks? Pop, Gatorade, coffee/tea with milk or cream ect all can add up to 1000's of calories a day. What did your thyroid test come back as? TSH "normal" levels have been changed quite a bit in the last year and most Dr's are not up to date. Are you hitting your target HR during your cardio not just going through the motions? (Target HR 156 for a 25 year old I think)...

Help here people

raniali
03-23-2005, 01:03 PM
what is your current weight and height?
unless you are genuinely a tiny person, i can not recommend consuming as little as you do - but then again, i am neither your doctor or trainer.

there is a good link at the top of this forum (and sooooo many other threads that can be found thru the search function) on the importance of refeeding. if you are not already incorporating refeeds into your week, it sounds like you should start. i think 22% is a healthy body fat for a woman, but of course we are always trying to look better.

AdmiralDan
03-23-2005, 01:05 PM
have you tried adjusting your ratios? your body may not respond well to your current ratio. also, what is your weight? i only ask because your calories may be a a little too low

Built
03-23-2005, 01:05 PM
My personal feeling is that 5 days a week cardio on this few calories is a recipe for disaster. Perhaps consider switching doctors and trainers.

persiankitty
03-26-2005, 09:02 PM
Im 5"2, 132-135, bf tested w/ infered (sp?) was 19.8. I started out at 22.5.
I count everyting I eat....even black coffee...
Everyone I talk to says that Im in starvation mode with my calorie intake and activity level. Im brainwashed with the low cal and lots of cardio thing.
Im working on getting my cals to at least 1200 everyday, and Im changing the ratios to lower on the carb, higher protein...
I do intense cardio, I start at a low level, and go up every 3 min. Thats how my trainer has me doing the elliptical, bike, and treadmill.
I can run a mile in under 8.5 min.
I do step two times a week.

These are some of my days from fitday

Calories Eaten Today
source grams cals %total
Total: 1056
Fat: 31 282 28%
Sat: 8 74 7%
Poly: 4 38 4%
Mono: 8 71 7%
Carbs: 125 435 43%
Fiber: 16 0 0%
Protein: 75 299 29%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calories Eaten Today
source grams cals %total
Total: 1084
Fat: 25 224 21%
Sat: 7 64 6%
Poly: 3 24 2%
Mono: 3 31 3%
Carbs: 138 487 47%
Fiber: 16 0 0%
Protein: 83 333 32%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%
---------------------------------------------------
Calories Eaten Today
source grams cals %total
Total: 822
Fat: 20 180 22%
Sat: 4 39 5%
Poly: 3 30 4%
Mono: 5 41 5%
Carbs: 79 295 37%
Fiber: 5 0 0%
Protein: 82 328 41%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%
------------------------------------------------------


Calories Eaten Today
source grams cals %total
Total: 1162
Fat: 35 311 28%
Sat: 18 165 15%
Poly: 3 30 3%
Mono: 9 80 7%
Carbs: 115 428 39%
Fiber: 7 0 0%
Protein: 92 367 33%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%
--------------------------------------------------------------
my results / Ref Interval Lab
tsh 0.991 / 0.350-5.500

t4 6.4 / 4.5-12.0
t3 34 / 24-39
free thyroxin Index 2.2 / 1.2-4.9

spanky33
03-26-2005, 09:08 PM
well for a woman, 19.8% fat is awesome. but for 5'2, you're probably higher up in weight. this only means that you have good LBM on you. i'm surprised you can survive on such few calories. i think you're in starvation mode.

persiankitty
03-26-2005, 09:23 PM
My LBM is 106, it was 101 before I started to lift.
Ive been b/n a size 4-6, so Im not a fatass, just frustrated that Im not getting more lean or smaller.

spanky33
03-26-2005, 09:26 PM
i'd try this if i were you (although you'll probably freak out):
take a week or two off from dieting, exercise, everything. eat maintenance cals for someone your weight. after two weeks, get back to doing what you're doing now. i'm pretty sure you'll see results.
that's my opinion, but i have a feeling you wont agree.

persiankitty
03-26-2005, 09:33 PM
I took two weeks off from 3 weeks off from lifting, b/c I had minor surgery and has a few stitches, but I killed my self with cardio....
Im starting back up monday with lifting, but Im struggling to get in 1200 calories, I know is sounds crazy, but Ive trained my body to survive on low cal. But I have to do it, b/c what Im doing now isnt working.
Im gonna up the cals and chill with the cardio.

p.s. Im med frame.

spanky33
03-26-2005, 09:37 PM
kheili negaran nabash :)
1200 misheh like 2 kabob koobidehs.
gotta have more than that ;)
jk, just switch things up and see what happens

persiankitty
03-26-2005, 09:40 PM
so you eat persian food!

spanky33
03-26-2005, 09:41 PM
actually no not really.. haha

persiankitty
03-26-2005, 09:41 PM
Im slow...I just understood what you wrote..lol

spanky33
03-26-2005, 09:44 PM
that's ok. if you ate more you'd get it faster! jk :P

PizDoff
03-26-2005, 09:45 PM
"Iím really frustratedÖIíve only gone from 22.5% body fat to 19.8%"

That is actually pretty good.
I know you are stressing but you have to realise you have made great gains and are ahead of many other people.

spanky33
03-26-2005, 09:45 PM
anyway, listen, girls are supposed to be 20-29% fat. you're even below that. so it's gonna be really tough to get even lower, you're really going against nature. so i think you should just keep at it and look long term (i.e. get to your goal over a year)

PizDoff
03-26-2005, 09:46 PM
so you eat persian food!

Oh yes he does! :thumbup: :hump:

Geeper
03-27-2005, 05:16 AM
Wow, that's all I can say.

Your thyroid is perfect, probably better than 80% of the population.

Everything seems to point to not enough calories. I don't know if "starvation mode" has really been explained here, but it's when your body takes in very little calories and because it is such a small amount the body stores everything it can, and of course when the body stores food it stores it as fat. It's a defense mechanism against starving.

Even if you are at a good bf% you can go into starvation mode and not look as well defined in the long run beaus eo fthe way the body will sote what it can.

Personally if you are not seeing the results you want to see you should get a new trainer ASAP! Some trainers are good at making people HUGE, others are great at weight loss, others are great for older folks and others are great for soccer moms looking to get out twice a week. I've yet to meet anyone that's good at all the aspects of being a trianer, so find someone else. You can always learn something new or a new person as well. Just tell your current trainer you want to switch things up with another person for a while.

Built
03-27-2005, 12:24 PM
Geeper, this is a common mistake made by many doctors regarding thyroid function. The tests PK shows us are not sufficient to rule out a thyroid issue. Although her TSH appears to be normal, the other tests listed are a TOTAL T3 and T4, not FREE. which doesn't show how much thyroid hormones are circulating freely in the blood and available for the tissues to use.

I totally agree with you on the starvation mode and the trainer, though. A typical problem that women face is ignorance - we are consistently told to drop our calories waaaay too low, do excessive cardio, and not focus on heavy compound lifts. No wonder so many of us become frustrated and give up when we see no results from our intensive efforts. I've been in this position myself, and it's very frustrating.

Geeper
03-27-2005, 12:44 PM
[QUOTE=Built]Geeper, this is a common mistake made by many doctors regarding thyroid function. The tests PK shows us are not sufficient to rule out a thyroid issue. Although her TSH appears to be normal, the other tests listed are a TOTAL T3 and T4, not FREE. which doesn't show how much thyroid hormones are circulating freely in the blood and available for the tissues to use.
QUOTE]

You'd have to agree that if there was any SERIOUS problem one or more of these numbers would look a little weird as well.....

persiankitty
03-27-2005, 05:03 PM
Im working on not going below 1150 this week.
I think I also want to try ckd.
From what i understand, its 5 days of low carb, than a refeed.
But how low is low (carb)? And how high for a refeed?

Built
03-27-2005, 11:37 PM
Geeper, I am no expert on this. But I've run PK's numbers past somebody who IS, and was told there's not enough information there.

With maint cals as low as hers are, SOMETHING is clearly wrong. I'm not much heavier, and my maint. cals are 2300.

spanky33
03-28-2005, 06:32 AM
:withstupi
no doubt about it

Geeper
03-28-2005, 08:32 AM
Geeper, I am no expert on this. But I've run PK's numbers past somebody who IS, and was told there's not enough information there.

With maint cals as low as hers are, SOMETHING is clearly wrong. I'm not much heavier, and my maint. cals are 2300.

If those three are in normal range any thyroid issue would be likely from adrenal problems or other system problems if anything. Free t3 and free t4 come into play when deciding doses, if TSH, T3, and T4 are normal then the putuitary is doing it's job, the thyroid is responding and the t4 is being converted properly into t3, there might be an uptake problem with the t3, but that's not the thyroid's problem and could be due to anything from overtraining and raised levels of cortisol to taking in to much soy which can block the uptake of t3. The ranges are quite wide to make sure anything weird would show up. If Free T4 was through the roof (or Free T3) one of the other numbers would look weird as well. For example if free t4 was through the roof, both t3 and free t3 would rise significantly. Extra free t3 and she would be in the other boat and would be loosing weight so fast she'd be eating 5000+ cals and not gaining at all.

The tests she had done would show hypothyroidism for sure, maybe not hyperhyroidism, but that's not what we are dealing with.

Sorry, I have a serious thyroid disease (almost killed me), and there is so much misinformation out there today it drive's me nuts.

persiankitty
03-28-2005, 11:50 AM
Ive cut out soy the past 6 weeks. Im reading every lable b/c it seems like almost everthing now has soy in it.

So what should I ask my doc next time I go in?
What kind of tests? Since based on my T4, T3, and THS everyting seems to look fine....
Im sure my cortisol is high since I do too mcuh cardio....but Im doing less from now on and doing better with the calories.

Geeper
03-28-2005, 12:34 PM
I'd ask for a second opinion as to what it could be, I'd put money on it having no thing to do with your thyroid, and don't get a dr to put you on thyroid meds just to loose weight, that will cause MAJOR problems that are irreversible.

Up the cals a bit, do your cardio only a couple times a week, say 4 at a MAXIMUM and wait a few weeks. Loosing weight isn't something that happens in one or 2 days.

I'd question your goals as well (especially since you have a history of eating disorders), 15% body fat is a recomended amount for a male athlete not for a female in everyday life, for a female a BF% between 20-25% is recomemded and you are already below that.

Personally I think you are overtraining, your body is in starvation mode and because you are eating so little your metabloism has slowed down to a crawl. I'd start eating 5 or 6 small meals a day, cut back on the cardio and see where you are in a month or 2.

_-_v_-_
03-28-2005, 12:40 PM
Geeper,

What if, for example, an individual has a low FT3 (not to mention a history of severe cachexia and the EDs which caused it) but normal TSH/FT4 levels? What would you recommend in this case?

Geeper
03-28-2005, 02:33 PM
Geeper,

What if, for example, an individual has a low FT3 (not to mention a history of severe cachexia and the EDs which caused it) but normal TSH/FT4 levels? What would you recommend in this case?

I don't even want to touch this question with a 10 foot pole, I know VERY little about cachexia... but from what I understand cachexia has nothing to do with the thyroid, but there are rare cases where it messes the levels up pretty bad, but why would someone with cachexia want to have even the right amount of t3 or ft3 as that would only speed up their metabolism and speed up the body eating it's self and make it even harder to retain any body mass, muscle or other wise?

For a healthy individual with normal tsh, t4, ft4 levels there are t3 drugs that would raise t3 and ft3.

Built
03-28-2005, 02:36 PM
Geeper, thank you very much for sharing your insight on this. I am in total agreement with you on your recommendations regarding PKs diet and training, as well.

_-_v_-_
03-28-2005, 02:44 PM
When I write "cachexia," I simply meant to signify the degree of catabolism I experienced when -- well, when I was starving myself.

As an example of what I mean: Consider that, in the past five years, I've:

1) Lost thirty-five pounds in four months due to an eating disorder. I went from a very lean, athletic 145lbs to an emaciated 110.

2) Slowly bulked back up to a very lean 150lbs, at which point my strength was superb: benched 225; squatted 375; weighted chins +90 X 2; DB Shoulder Pressed the 80's for 3 or 4.

3) Then, from the period between last October and the previous October or September, I went from a ripped 145lbs back down to 115lbs. The weight loss, though gradual for several months, drastically accelerated during the later portion of the period.

4) Since last October, when I finally started taking care of myself again, I've put weight back on. I'm currently around 137-140lbs, and my BF% has been tested to be no more than 6.5% (seven-point caliper test.) I haven't gained weight in some time, though, I believe; and certainly I'm not eating as much as I was when I was solidly (and quite "leanly") gaining.

You see what I mean? That's two periods of extreme weight loss in not that long of a timespan; and, to make matters worse, the latter period comprised an extended hypocalorical period in which I not only trained but truly overtrained.

Paul Stagg
03-28-2005, 02:53 PM
Persian - you've been working with this trainer since August, appear to eat a pretty low number of calories, have (had) and eating disorder, and admit that you overdo the cardio.

All that at a bf% at the low end of normal.

I think you might just need a bit of a break. Lift to get stronger and feel good. Do some cardio to keep your conditioning up (but not much!). Quit dieting for a month.