My rant of what Dallas, TX is becoming....

[CBates]

I just want to start this off by saying this is not to be meant as a racist rant at all, hell, even my best friend is hispanic.. I'm not sure if it's getting like this everywhere or just in Dallas right now, but my life is becoming an inconvenience because these immigrants are coming to American and refuse to learn English. These are just examples of what I've had to deal with in the last three weeks. Last week after I went to the Slipknot/Lamb of God/Shadows Fall concert I wanted Taco Bell really bad b/c I haven't had anything to eat for like 10 hours.. I figured I'd go to Taco Bell b/c I can get what I want really cheap.. I go through the drive though and the person running the drive though doesn't speak English. I tried to order my food for 20 minutes before finally saying screw it and went somewhere else.. Yesterday I wanted to get a sandwich from Quiznos. The two people working there speak no English. I had to have another customer there that is bilingual help me order my food b/c they only spoke spanish there... I go to Walmart today and they have all their advertisements on the intercom in spanish the entire 45 minutes I was there.... I just go new neighbors in my apartments that live below me.. They let their kids run around wild outside all day long with no/little supervision. They climb all over my brand new car and constantly kick a soccer ball into it. I go down there to complain and none of them speak english, but I guess they figured I was pissed b/c I began to yell when their kids kicked a ball into my car right in front of me. Not even 15 minutes later they were back out there doing the same thing again. Called they cops and the cops show up, but don't speak Spanish, so that did no good. It took 5 calls to the police and 4 hours later before I got a cop out there that could speak spanish.. I'm not even going to mention with what I have to put up with at work b/c I could be here all day.... Is it getting this bad everywhere in the US or just in certain parts? I've only been living in Dallas for about 4 years and it's progressively getting worse, I can't even begin to imagine what its' going to be like in 10 years or so.. It'll be almost required to know spanish to do anything in Dallas anymore.

[MrWebb78]

1) you shouldn't be going to fast food.

2) you shouldn't be going to walmart.

3) majority of immigrants speak fine english when they HAVE to, but act like they don't when they don't WANT to.

4) I live in the world's "most diverse city", statistically speaking. Sacramento, California. so I understand what you are saying, but don't understand the frustration.

5) I am going to that concert on Wednesday, how was it??

[Gyno Rhino]

4) I live in the world's "most diverse city", statistically speaking. Sacramento, California. so I understand what you are saying, but don't understand the frustration.


We have a national language. That's why he's frustrated.

[mrelwooddowd]

English is the national language. There should be no menus, signs, etc. in any other language, with the exception of airports, and other places where travelers will be. A crackdown on english-speaking would shape this country up. It's ridiculous that we cater to foreigners not only with employment sans work visa, but with bilingual daily conveniences as well. Do we go to France and expect everyone to speak English? No. We may hope, and be pleasantly surprised, but if they don't, we knew we were in a FRENCH-speaking country and we deal with it.

[CBates]

1) you shouldn't be going to fast food.

2) you shouldn't be going to walmart.

3) majority of immigrants speak fine english when they HAVE to, but act like they don't when they don't WANT to.

4) I live in the world's "most diverse city", statistically speaking. Sacramento, California. so I understand what you are saying, but don't understand the frustration.

5) I am going to that concert on Wednesday, how was it??

1) like I said above, it was after a concert and I was starving and not that many places are open at midnight and I didn't want to go home and have to cook anything that late at night..

2) Unless I want to drive way out of my way to go shopping or spend 3x the money on the same products Walmart has, I'll just stick with Walmart.

3) true in same cases, but a lot of them are just too lazy to try to learn English or they just feel we all should learn Spanish to make it more convenient for them.

4) Because in the next several years if something doesn't change I'll have to learn spanish just to do basic daily activities if I choose to live in Dallas.

5) The concert was great. My only complaint was that I wished Shadows Fall and Lamb of God got longer sets. I'm not a huge fan of Slipknot and I thought they put a really good show on too. I had pit tickets so it was pretty brutal the entire show, especially when Lamb of God was on. Also if Devildriver was supposed to open up at your show don't except them to be there, they dropped off the tour. They were only doing a few shows. I think Otep was doing 1/2 of the tour and Devildriver was doing the other 1/2.

[IZich]

English is the national language. There should be no menus, signs, etc. in any other language, with the exception of airports, and other places where travelers will be. A crackdown on english-speaking would shape this country up. It's ridiculous that we cater to foreigners not only with employment sans work visa, but with bilingual daily conveniences as well. Do we go to France and expect everyone to speak English? No. We may hope, and be pleasantly surprised, but if they don't, we knew we were in a FRENCH-speaking country and we deal with it.
I completely agree.
However, i think for immigrants vs. traverers, it be a different story. There are a handful of immigrants out there (some of whom were my grandparents) who came here to do exactly what you say they should be doing- learning english. However, it can be pretty hard learning english when there is nothing around that will help them translate what they see in a foreign language into something understandable: I've seen firsthand these difficulties.

[mrelwooddowd]

I completely agree.
However, i think for immigrants vs. traverers, it be a different story. There are a handful of immigrants out there (some of whom were my grandparents) who came here to do exactly what you say they should be doing- learning english. However, it can be pretty hard learning english when there is nothing around that will help them translate what they see in a foreign language into something understandable: I've seen firsthand these difficulties.

As much as I understand that, I wouldn't go to another country to live without first knowing at least SOME of the language. These people are only making it harder on themselves, but, in America we take care of the lazy (I don't mean your grandparents), so we're coddling everyone these days.

[shootermcgavin7]

The United States does not have an official language. Look it up.

[mrelwooddowd]

The United States does not have an official language. Look it up.

I wouldn't know where to look it up factually, but we were taught in school that it was voted on, and English prevailed by one vote over Espanol. That's good enough for me for the moment.

[BilltheButcher]

(sorry for long post)
Try living in NC. They are selling the house across the street. So a group of hispanic women and men with about 8 kids no one of them older than four roll in everyday for like a week, and were cleaning the entire place. All eight are inside while the kids run around outside. This is a realtively expensive area and the people that owned the house got transferred and were getting it ready for sale, so i didn't want to complain to bad. However, I work a lot from home and I hear a loud bam. I had just bought a pretty nice Suburban, I look out my window and 5 little kids are in my front yard and driveway, running around. I go outside and see a little dent and chipped paint on the back door and a decent size rock on the driveway. I almost blew my top, but stayed calm. Went across the street and low and behold none of the people spoke english. So I brought them all over to look at the dent and pointed at their kids. Nothing seemed to sink in. Called the cops and what a great help they were. Did you see anything? Don't you have insurance? I'm like what the F. Now I'm trying to get the insurance company to do something. Then yesterday the kids went into my other neighbors garage and took their kids toys out of the gargare and were riding one of those big wheel things. Kid comes into my driveway then zips out into the street between the bushes and this lady down the street has to slam on her breaks and whacks her chin on the steering wheel. She was raging. I really thought she was going to choke the kids mom out. The hispanic lady just stared at her blankly. I called the cops again, the rest of the day I did not see the kids, but i think this was their last day on the house. I called my former neighbor, and he told me to send him the bill, and said i should have called him the first day.

Just my dealings. Have no problem with hispanics, amazing work ethic, very family oriented (maybe minus this group), but this whole anchor baby crap is going to suck the life out of this country. Wait and see in 40 years, its already a drain on our gov't agencies. But someone has to do all the jobs no american wants to do b/c they want to get paid to much. I think there is no good solution.

[shootermcgavin7]

I wouldn't know where to look it up factually, but we were taught in school that it was voted on, and English prevailed by one vote over Espanol. That's good enough for me for the moment.


Some states have passed a law declaring English to be the official language of their state, which may be what you're referring to, and there are a few bills floating around Congress; but to my knowledge an official language of the United States has never been declared.

I can understand your frustration of the language barrier, I was just pointing out that English isn't the "national language" because we don't have a national language.

[largelegsbuthot]

Have no problem with hispanics, amazing work ethic, very family oriented (maybe minus this group), but this whole anchor baby crap is going to suck the life out of this country. Wait and see in 40 years, its already a drain on our gov't agencies. But someone has to do all the jobs no american wants to do b/c they want to get paid to much. I think there is no good solution.
I can sympathize with your stories and think it's horrible that has happened to you. However, North America is about opportunity and freedom and giving a handful that chance. Right now it maybe certain hispanics but years ago it was asians, cubans,indians, polish, russians, italians, irish, spanish,french ect.ect.
everyone started at ground zero and the majority of people not wanting foriegners who have not been completely amalgamated into the western culture. Imagine how pleased the native people were when the British started pouring into their country and speaking their language only.
It's tough but that's how it has ALWAYS been. And who's to say that some american family with rowdy redneck children wouldn't have done the same to your car?

[mrelwooddowd]

Some states have passed a law declaring English to be the official language of their state, which may be what you're referring to, and there are a few bills floating around Congress; but to my knowledge an official language of the United States has never been declared.

I can understand your frustration of the language barrier, I was just pointing out that English isn't the "national language" because we don't have a national language.

Shooter, since you always seem to know your s**t, I checked it out. I did a lot of googling, and found site after site where it is menitoned that English beat GERMAN by one vote. Some sites mention 1795, and others 1776 as the year in question, but I found nothing credible. Until this, and I stand corrected..thank you...

http://www2.english.uiuc.edu/baron/essays/legendar.htm

And to think they taught me this in school at some point..sheesh

[shootermcgavin7]

And to think they taught me this in school at some point..sheesh



Believe me, it pales in comparison to some of the sh1t that I was taught growing up.

[mrelwooddowd]

Believe me, it pales in comparison to some of the sh1t that I was taught growing up.

Oh, I understand, but something like NATIONAL LANGUAGE shoulda been F'ing checked out! I'm really starting to wonder about some of my old teachers now.

[mrelwooddowd]

So, in all reality, we have no beef about Spanish taking over. I guess I'll get a home study course and learn it....I'llnot let my ignorance let me get left behind. Hmm..I wonder if they make a home-study for ebonics?

[MixmasterNash]

OMG ARE THere RILLY SPANISH PEOPLE IN TEXAS SPEAKING Mexican??!?!?!? OMG LOL!!!! white people are OWNZerd!

[pfc3rex]

1) you shouldn't be going to fast food.

2) you shouldn't be going to walmart.

3) majority of immigrants speak fine english when they HAVE to, but act like they don't when they don't WANT to.

4) I live in the world's "most diverse city", statistically speaking. Sacramento, California. so I understand what you are saying, but don't understand the frustration.

5) I am going to that concert on Wednesday, how was it??

for one I like walmart :) , the language in america is english. Eventually we'll all be speaking english as a dominant language, and spanish as a secondary.

[pfc3rex]

So, in all reality, we have no beef about Spanish taking over. I guess I'll get a home study course and learn it....I'llnot let my ignorance let me get left behind. Hmm..I wonder if they make a home-study for ebonics?

let me know if you find anything out.

[Gyno Rhino]

The United States does not have an official language. Look it up.

Are you sure about this? I've heard from many, many different sources throughout my life that a language for the country was decided on right after it's formation - and that it was English by a slim margin over German (people wanted to distance themselves from G.B. and felt that having a different national language might do it).

I'm not saying that's how it was, but that's how I've ALWAYS heard it. Is it just a big myth or something?

--
EDIT: Just read M's link. Interesting.

[SobaAddict70]

I wouldn't know where to look it up factually, but we were taught in school that it was voted on, and English prevailed by one vote over Espanol. That's good enough for me for the moment.

We don't have an official language because there's this little thing called the First Amendment that prevents the government from instituting something like this.

;)

Stash

edit: now if the ELA gets passed, that's a whole new ball game.

[Gyno Rhino]

We don't have an official language because there's this little thing called the First Amendment that prevents the government from instituting something like this.

;)

Stash

B.S.

First Amendment has nothing to do with a national language.

You can HAVE the freedom to speak whatever language you want. But the government would conduct it's business and regulations in a specific one.

[Tryska]

shooter's right. we don't have an offficial national language.


i think we hould tho, and i think it should be english, considereing all of our important national documents are written in them.

[Tryska]

hmmm...i wonder how history would have panned out if German had been selected as our unofficial national language?

[SobaAddict70]

B.S.

First Amendment has nothing to do with a national language.

You can HAVE the freedom to speak whatever language you want. But the government would conduct it's business and regulations in a specific one.

No?

See Armando Ruiz, et. al. v. Jane Dee Hull, Governor of Arizona, et. al. (Supreme Court of the State of Arizona, No. CV-96-0493-PR) in which the justices stated


Unlike other English-only provisions, the Amendment
explicitly and broadly prohibits government employees from using non-
English languages even when communicating with persons who have limited
or no English skills, stating that all “government officials and
employees during the performance of government business” must “act
in English and no other language.” Amendment, §§ 1(3)(a)(iv), 3(1)(a).
It also requires every level and branch of government to “preserve,
protect and enhance the role of . . . English . . . as the official
language” and prohibits all state and local entities from enacting
or enforcing any “law, order, decree or policy which requires the
use of a language other than English.” §§ 2, 3(1)(b). We agree with
the Ninth Circuit that the Amendment “could hardly be more inclusive”
and that it “prohibit[s] the use in all oral and written communications by persons connected with the government of all words and phrases
in any language other than English.” Yniguez v. AOE, 69 F.3d at 933.

¶45 Assuming arguendo that the government may, under certain
circumstances and for appropriate reasons, restrict public employees
from using non-English languages to communicate while performing their
duties, the Amendment’s reach is too broad. For example, by its
express language, it prohibits a public school teacher, such as
Appellant Garcia, and a monolingual Spanish-speaking parent from
speaking in Spanish about a child’s education. It also prohibits
a town hall discussion between citizens and elected individuals in
a language other than English and also precludes a discussion in a
language other than English between public employees and citizens
seeking unemployment or workers’ compensation benefits, or access
to fair housing or public assistance, or to redress violations of
those rights.

¶46 The First Amendment to the United States Constitution
provides:

Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom
of speech, or of the press; or the right of the
people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
the government for a redress of grievances.

¶47 The First Amendment applies to the states as well as to
the federal government. Gitlow v. New York, 268 U.S. 652, 665, 45
S.Ct. 625, 630 (1925). The expression of one’s opinion is absolutely
protected by the First and Fourteenth Amendments. AMCOR Inv. Corp.
v. Cox Ariz. Publications, Inc., 158 Ariz. 566, 568, 764 P.2d 327,
329 (App. 1988) (citation omitted); see also Meyer v. Nebraska, 262
U.S. 390, 401, 43 S.Ct. 625, 627 (1923) (stating that the United States
Constitution protects speakers of all languages). The trial court held that the Amendment is content-neutral, and, therefore, does not
violate the First Amendment. City of Renton v. Playtime Theatres,
Inc., 475 U.S. 41, 47-48, 106 S.Ct. 925, 929-30 (1986). That ruling
is flawed.

¶48 “Whatever differences may exist about interpretations of
the First Amendment, there is practically universal agreement that
a major purpose of that Amendment was to protect the free discussion
of governmental affairs.” Landmark Communications, Inc. v. Virginia,
435 U.S. 829, 838, 98 S.Ct. 1535, 1541 (1978) (footnote omitted)
(quoting Mills v. Alabama, 384 U.S. 214, 218, 86 S.Ct. 1434, 1437
(1966)). We note that the Amendment, Section 3, acknowledges that
its mandate that government act only in English is superseded by the
use of foreign languages in schools both to enable students to
transition to English (subsection 2(a)) and to teach students a foreign
language (subsection 2(c)). Subsection 2(b) states that the
Amendment’s English-only mandate does not apply in instances where
foreign language use is required to ensure compliance with federal
laws. Therefore, the Amendment would not apply, for instance, with
regard to bilingual ballots in Arizona in designated political
subdivisions as required by the Voting Rights Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 1973
aa-1a(c) (forbidding states from conditioning the right to vote on
the ability to read, write, understand, or interpret English). Nor
would it affect a criminal defendant's right to have a competent
translator assist him, at state expense, if need be. See United States
ex rel. Negron v. New York, 434 F.2d 386, 391 (2d Cir. 1970).

¶49 Notwithstanding these limited exceptions, we find that the
Amendment unconstitutionally inhibits “the free discussion of
governmental affairs” in two ways. First, it deprives limited- and
non-English-speaking persons of access to information about the government when multilingual access may be available and may be
necessary to ensure fair and effective delivery of governmental
services to non-English-speaking persons. It is not our prerogative
to impinge upon the Legislature’s ability to require, under appropriate
circumstances, the provision of services in languages other than
English. See, e.g., A.R.S. § 23-906(D) (Providing that every employer
engaged in occupations subject to Arizona’s Workers’ Compensation
statutes shall post in a conspicuous place upon his premises, in
English and Spanish, a notice informing employees that unless they
specifically reject coverage under Arizona’s compulsory compensation
law, they are deemed to have accepted the provisions of that law).
The United States Supreme Court has held that First Amendment
protection is afforded to the communication, its source, and its
recipient. Virginia State Board of Pharmacy v. Virginia Citizens
Consumer Council, Inc., 425 U.S. 748, 756-57, 96 S.Ct. 1817, 1822-23
(1976).

¶50 In his concurring opinion in Barnes, Justice Scalia stated,
“[W]hen any law restricts speech, even for a purpose that has nothing
to do with the suppression of communication . . . , we insist that
it meet the high First-Amendment standard of justification.” 501
U.S. at 576, 111 S.Ct. at 2465-66. The Amendment contravenes core
principles and values undergirding the First Amendment — the right
of the people to seek redress from their government — by directly
banning pure speech on its face. By denying persons who are limited
in English proficiency, or entirely lacking in it, the right to
participate equally in the political process, the Amendment violates the constitutional right to participate in and have access to
government, a right which is one of the “fundamental principle[s]
of representative government in this country.” See Reynolds v. Sims,
377 U.S. 533, 560, 566-68, 84 S.Ct. 1362, 1381, 1383-85 (1964). The
First Amendment right to petition for redress of grievances lies at
the core of America’s democracy. McDonald v. Smith, 472 U.S. 479,
482-83, 485, 105 S.Ct. 2787, 2790, 2791 (1985); United Mine Workers
of America v. Illinois State Bar Assn, 389 U.S. 217, 222, 88 S.Ct.
353, 356 (1967) (right to petition is “among the most precious
liberties safeguarded by the Bill of Rights”). In Board of Education
v. Pico, 457 U.S. 853, 867, 102 S.Ct. 2799, 2808 (1982), the Court
recognized that “the right to receive ideas is a necessary predicate
to the recipient's meaningful exercise of his own rights of speech,
press and political freedom.”

¶51 The Amendment violates the First Amendment by depriving
elected officials and public employees of the ability to communicate
with their constituents and with the public. With only a few
exceptions, the Amendment prohibits all public officials and employees
in Arizona from acting in a language other than English while
performing governmental functions and policies. We do not prohibit
government offices from adopting language rules for appropriate
reasons. We hold that the Amendment goes too far because it
effectively cuts off governmental communication with thousands of
limited-English-proficient and non-English-speaking persons in Arizona,
even when the officials and employees have the ability and desire
to communicate in a language understandable to them. Meaningful
communication in those cases is barred. Under such circumstances,
prohibiting an elected or appointed governmental official or an employee from communicating with the public violates the employee’s
and the official’s rights. See, e.g., United States v. National
Treasury Employees Union, 513 U.S. 454, 465-66, 115 S.Ct. 1003, 1012
(1995) (employee commenting on matters of public concern has right
to speak, subject to considerations of governmental efficiency); Eu
v. San Francisco County Democratic Cent. Comm., 489 U.S. 214, 223,
109 S.Ct. 1013, 1020 (1989) (finding state law violates party
officials’ rights to spread political message to voters seeking to
inform themselves on campaign issues). As the Ninth Circuit noted,
the Amendment could “hardly be more inclusive”; it “prohibit[s] the
use in all oral and written communications by persons connected with
the government of all words and phrases in any language other than
English.” Yniguez v. AOE, 69 F.3d at 933.

Ruiz v. Hull (http://www.languageandlaw.org/TEXTS/CASES/RUIZ.HTM)


The U.S. Supreme Court has refused to hear an appeal from an Arizona Supreme Court decision declaring an "English-only" law unconstitutional. Without comment, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear the appeal of a ruling in which the Arizona court had struck down an Arizona law designating English as the state’s official language and requiring state and local governments in Arizona to conduct business only in English. The effect of the U.S. Supreme Court’s action was to let stand the state supreme court’s decision that the "English-only" law was unconstitutional.

U.S. Supreme Court ruling (http://www.nilc.org/immsemplymnt/emprights/emprights004a.htm)

So yes, the First Amendment does play a part in the "English-only" debate as it currently stands.

Hence the reason why proponents of the concept want to go the constitutional route (i.e., amendments) so as to block the judicial route.

Stash

[Isaac Wilkins]

I live in the whitest state in the Union (we finally beat New Hampshire and Vermont in the last census), so my opinion is worthless here. All I have to do it figure out the 'downeast accent, which can be a challenge.

However, I agree with the idea that if you're going to move to a county, then start making some progress towards learning the dominant language of the COUNTRY. Why wouldn't you want to? We don't have Spanish signs up here, and when I've worked with Hispanic migrant workers they spend more time being confused and trying to figure out what's going on than anything else. They don't look like they're enjoying themselves.

[Gyno Rhino]

No?

See Armando Ruiz, et. al. v. Jane Dee Hull, Governor of Arizona, et. al. (Supreme Court of the State of Arizona, No. CV-96-0493-PR) in which the justices stated



Ruiz v. Hull (http://www.languageandlaw.org/TEXTS/CASES/RUIZ.HTM)



U.S. Supreme Court ruling (http://www.nilc.org/immsemplymnt/emprights/emprights004a.htm)

So yes, the First Amendment does play a part in the "English-only" debate as it currently stands.

Hence the reason why proponents of the concept want to go the constitutional route (i.e., amendments) so as to block the judicial route.

Stash

I'm aware of the Arizona decision.

But it's faulty - having an official language in no way restricts the right to a citizen's free speech, or any other portion of A1.

I've never understood the argument that an official language declaration would in any way encroach on the 1st. Why do you think it does?

The 14th is different - I'm talking about A1.

[SobaAddict70]

Did you read the opinion? I thought the reasons given in the opinion were abundantly clear.

That doesn't mean I don't support an effort for a national language. ;)

Let's put it this way: it's clear to me that you do want a national language, so I won't try to dissuade you. However, saying A1 plays no role is clearly wrong given that there are reams of established case law and decisions about this issue.

Stash

[shootermcgavin7]

A lot of people also use some of the references by the founding fathers, notably John Jay in the Federalist Papers, speaking of his ideal America:
"one united people. . . speaking the same language"

Of course, John Jay's ideal America also consisted of British-decended Protestant white males who owned land, so it is faulty to pick and choose.


As far as my own opinion of the matter, it isn't just the Mexican form of Spanish that I see a great deal in Atlanta, but one could drive down Buford Highway in Atlanta(Tryska can attest to this) and see signs in Vietnamese, Korean, Chinese, Indian, etc.

The US has always been a diverse country, but historically, when each new wave of immigrants arrive there is a public uproar. It happened during the two large Irish immigrations, it happened during the large Italian immigration, etc.

Even though English is the dominant language in the US, there are large subsocieties, mostly of Hispanics, that only speak Spanish. However, again this has historically been true of each first generation of immigrants that arrive.

My family might be a bunch of drunken Micks (myself included) that has been in the US for around 70 years, but I don't have an Irish accent, and speak English as well as can be expected for someone from Georgia.

My roommate's grandparents moved here from Italy and didn't speak a lick of English, my roommate doesn't know a word of Italian and obviously speaks English.

My girlfriend's parents moved to the US from Hong Kong in the late 1970's. She was born in Atlanta and the extent of her Chinese is knowing the names of the food at Dim Sum. (I realize that most Chinese families at least send their children to language school be bilangual in Chinese & English; but my point is that at least every 2nd generation Asian-American I have met usually has a better grasp on the English language than I do).


My point is that I think it will work itself out, as it has historically numerous times.

Of course, if I'm wrong, I hope our Spanish Conquistadors will continue to let me speak English 20 years from now.

[Gyno Rhino]

Did you read the opinion? I thought the reasons given in the opinion were abundantly clear.

That doesn't mean I don't support an effort for a national language. ;)

Let's put it this way: it's clear to me that you do want a national language, so I won't try to dissuade you. However, saying A1 plays no role is clearly wrong given that there are reams of established case law and decisions about this issue.

Stash

Yeah, I read the decision and the reasoning behind it.

But the reasoning simply seems faulty to me. I still don't see how a national language betrays the 1st. The 14th, maybe, but not the 1st. You're not denying anyone's rights as laid out in the first by having a national language.

[Gyno Rhino]

A lot of people also use some of the references by the founding fathers, notably John Jay in the Federalist Papers, speaking of his ideal America:
"one united people. . . speaking the same language"

Of course, John Jay's ideal America also consisted of British-decended Protestant white males who owned land, so it is faulty to pick and choose.


As far as my own opinion of the matter, it isn't just the Mexican form of Spanish that I see a great deal in Atlanta, but one could drive down Buford Highway in Atlanta(Tryska can attest to this) and see signs in Vietnamese, Korean, Chinese, Indian, etc.

The US has always been a diverse country, but historically, when each new wave of immigrants arrive there is a public uproar. It happened during the two large Irish immigrations, it happened during the large Italian immigration, etc.

Even though English is the dominant language in the US, there are large subsocieties, mostly of Hispanics, that only speak Spanish. However, again this has historically been true of each first generation of immigrants that arrive.

My family might be a bunch of drunken Micks (myself included) that has been in the US for around 70 years, but I don't have an Irish accent, and speak English as well as can be expected for someone from Georgia.

My roommate's grandparents moved here from Italy and didn't speak a lick of English, my roommate doesn't know a word of Italian and obviously speaks English.

My girlfriend's parents moved to the US from Hong Kong in the late 1970's. She was born in Atlanta and the extent of her Chinese is knowing the names of the food at Dim Sum. (I realize that most Chinese families at least send their children to language school be bilangual in Chinese & English; but my point is that at least every 2nd generation Asian-American I have met usually has a better grasp on the English language than I do).


My point is that I think it will work itself out, as it has historically numerous times.

Of course, if I'm wrong, I hope our Spanish Conquistadors will continue to let me speak English 20 years from now.


The difference back then was that the government didn't cater to, and frowned upon foreign languages. Now we're so damned PC that our government looks down on people that DON'T speak multiple languages other than English.

And as to you being Irish, I'm sorry. Some folks are born with only one arm, too. Though I'd rather be in the second camp. ;)

[shootermcgavin7]

And as to you being Irish, I'm sorry. Some folks are born with only one arm, too. Though I'd rather be in the second camp. ;)


I went back to visit the town my grandparents were from, the town square had really nothing but a soccer field, Catholic church, and a pub. They said you were supposed to go the pub before and after the soccer game, and before and after Church.

[Gyno Rhino]

The only thing I envy about the Irish is their strong livers. ;)

[shootermcgavin7]

The only thing I envy about the Irish is their strong livers. ;)



And our strong work ethic, our tan complexion, our wonderful handling of money, our technological savvy...............................ah, wait a minute.....


Nope, we're just drunken Papists who set off a bomb in Belfast every once in a while.

[SW]

English is the national language. There should be no menus, signs, etc. in any other language, with the exception of airports, and other places where travelers will be. A crackdown on english-speaking would shape this country up. It's ridiculous that we cater to foreigners not only with employment sans work visa, but with bilingual daily conveniences as well. Do we go to France and expect everyone to speak English? No. We may hope, and be pleasantly surprised, but if they don't, we knew we were in a FRENCH-speaking country and we deal with it.

100% :withstupi

[SobaAddict70]

Yeah, I read the decision and the reasoning behind it.

But the reasoning simply seems faulty to me. I still don't see how a national language betrays the 1st. The 14th, maybe, but not the 1st. You're not denying anyone's rights as laid out in the first by having a national language.

In theory, yes.

But theory is oh so different from reality.

Many philosophies sound good on paper but don't pan out that way. Take Marxism for example. ;)

I'd be interested in hearing why you think the reasoning is faulty. I haven't heard anything specific beyond generalizations.

Stash

[SobaAddict70]

Maybe throw in a case or two to support your assertions? Not sure if that's asking much. (wink)

[mrelwooddowd]

100% :withstupi

Sorry, SW, I don't even agree with myself anymore. If we have no national language, then I have nothing to bitch about. I guess I'm gonna learn Spanish.

[Gyno Rhino]

Just saw this: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=15&u=/ap/20050412/ap_on_re_us/official_english

Wonder what'll happen?

[SobaAddict70]

*IF* something develops, most likely the ACLU or a similar party will bring suit against the state and a judge will strike it down as unconstitutional.

Otherwise, probably nothing.

Stash

[shootermcgavin7]

Just saw this: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=15&u=/ap/20050412/ap_on_re_us/official_english

Wonder what'll happen?


Nothing; I think there are over 35 states that have designated an official language; however, the Federal government has never designated one.

[Praetorian]

Keep in mind that most immigrants don't have 'learning the language' high up on their priority list, cause they have more imminent/important concerns like putting food on the table and taking care of their family/-ies.

And also, the older you get, the harder it is to pick up a language.

[mrelwooddowd]

Keep in mind that most immigrants don't have 'learning the language' high up on their priority list, cause they have more imminent/important concerns like putting food on the table and taking care of their family/-ies.

And also, the older you get, the harder it is to pick up a language.

Common sense tells us that it's easier to succeed in a foreign country if we speak the language. Therefore, learning English would help them to do all of these things much better.

I don't see age as an excuse, because children learn their native tongue. Stupid people learn second languages. I think that learning a second language doesn't require as much intelligence as most people think. Of course it's impressive to speak an extra one or two, but if you really think about it, anyone can do it without even formal training.

[Praetorian]

Common sense tells us that it's easier to succeed in a foreign country if we speak the language. Therefore, learning English would help them to do all of these things much better.

I agree, but thats not how most of the immigrants think.

Their IMMIDIATE concern is to put food on the table, they don't go 'gee, if I spend time learning the language now, I can make more money down the road'. Rather they think 'Money now!' So they hook up with their own 'people' (for a lack of better word) that give them underpaid jobs as delivery boys, and before they know it, they've been doing the same job for years.


I don't see age as an excuse, because children learn their native tongue. Stupid people learn second languages. I think that learning a second language doesn't require as much intelligence as most people think. Of course it's impressive to speak an extra one or two, but if you really think about it, anyone can do it without even formal training.

True, but it's not an overnight process.

Tell me, if a 6years old and a 50year old move to a new country, starting from scratch (no money, refugee/immigrant status), who do you think will learn the language fastest and how long will that take? Could it be the 6year old with no concern but going to school and meeting new people, or the 50year old that spends every minute thinking on how he's gonna put food on the table?

I'd put my money on the 6year old.

It's not hard to learn a language when your primary needs are satisfied, and yeah, even 'stupid people' can learn a language then.

I don't mean this to be a flame or anything, but I think it's kinda easy to sit back and say 'lazy immigrants, they should at least learn the language those SOBs', when you havn't walked in their shoes.

[mrelwooddowd]

I agree, but thats not how most of the immigrants think.

Their IMMIDIATE concern is to put food on the table, they don't go 'gee, if I spend time learning the language now, I can make more money down the road'. Rather they think 'Money now!' So they hook up with their own 'people' (for a lack of better word) that give them underpaid jobs as delivery boys, and before they know it, they've been doing the same job for years.



True, but it's not an overnight process.

Tell me, if a 6years old and a 50year old move to a new country, starting from scratch (no money, refugee/immigrant status), who do you think will learn the language fastest and how long will that take? Could it be the 6year old with no concern but going to school and meeting new people, or the 50year old that spends every minute thinking on how he's gonna put food on the table?

I'd put my money on the 6year old.

It's not hard to learn a language when your primary needs are satisfied, and yeah, even 'stupid people' can learn a language then.

I don't mean this to be a flame or anything, but I think it's kinda easy to sit back and say 'lazy immigrants, they should at least learn the language those SOBs', when you havn't walked in their shoes.


I agree.

The 6 year-old will have an easier go of it for precisely the reasons you stated, but that doesn't change the fact that the 50 year-old made a conscious decision to leave his own country. I know that some people are fleeing communist regimes and all, but an hour before bed every night isn't too much to ask of them when it comes to learning their new country's language. Most foreign people that I know learne the language from watching TV...you think a 50 year-old can't watch Nip/Tuck or "The Shield", and pick up some English words here and there amid all the soft-core porn?

And I meant no offense to stupid people (not that you said I did). I was only making the poin that some of the most obviously "brick-shy" people I encounter are speaking a second tongue.

[mrelwooddowd]

But again, now that I know we don't have a damned National Language, I have no real bitch, do I? I'm gonna learn Spanish. Hmmm...maybe Arabic, so those bastard taxi driver's in NYC can't screw me outta my fares.

[mrelwooddowd]

ANd a lot of immigrants send money home, where it makes them much more well-off later-on. How's that for fair?