Outbreak

[Dirt]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050408/wl_afp/angolahealthvirus_050408214447

Just felt like posting this link. Reminds me of when Ebola was a big deal and had a lot of media publicity (movies, made for tv movies, books, etc.). I doubt this will get nearly the attention. I would wager the entire "deadly mystery virus" story is played out.

[Tryska]

yeah, marburg is pretty hardcore. it's another level 4 filovirus like ebola, and it usually results in people crashing out like ebola.

curious to me why these diseases keep popping up in Africa?


although we do get hanta virus here in the Southwestern US.

[jack_of_all]

what is the kill rate of ebola compared to marburg?

edit: i dont mean to tell me its less, but does anyone know the actual figures for either of these viruses?

[shootermcgavin7]

curious to me why these diseases keep popping up in Africa?




I could be completely wrong here, but I think historically a lot of it had to with their year-round warm river deltas + mosquitoes.

[galileo]

I could be completely wrong here, but I think historically a lot of it had to with their year-round warm river deltas + mosquitoes.

Plus, a good bit of the continent lacks common practices to prevent the spread of disease. I've seen a few mystery viruses pop up in America here and there, but most can be squelched so quickly that it wouldn't become an epidemic.

[TBone4Eva]

Well, it is believed that the first infection of these outbreaks of Marburg and Ebola are caused by animal to human transmission. Unfortunately we do not know what the normal carriers of these diseases are, but obviously the animals are native to Africa.

In a broad sense, viral hemorrhagic fever occurs all over the world, Tryska.


Taken together, the viruses that cause VHFs are distributed over much of the globe. However, because each virus is associated with one or more particular host species, the virus and the disease it causes are usually seen only where the host species live(s). Some hosts, such as the rodent species carrying several of the New World arenaviruses, live in geographically restricted areas. Therefore, the risk of getting VHFs caused by these viruses is restricted to those areas. Other hosts range over continents, such as the rodents that carry viruses which cause various forms of hantavirus pulmonary syndrome (HPS) in North and South America, or the different set of rodents that carry viruses which cause hemorrhagic fever with renal syndrome (HFRS) in Europe and Asia. A few hosts are distributed nearly worldwide, such as the common rat. It can carry Seoul virus, a cause of HFRS; therefore, humans can get HFRS anywhere where the common rat is found.http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/vhf.htm

What makes the ones in Africa so note worthy is how much more lethal these viruses seem to be, 23-25% for Marburg, 50-90% for Ebola (also note worthy is that there are 4 different species of Ebola virus, one of which was identified in an animal research facility in Reston, Virgina. It infected some of the workers there, but was found not to cause disease in humans).

[Tryska]

yeah that's what i mean T-Bone - it's curious that these hardcore viruses keep popping up in Africa.

I mean, were they always around and no one outside of those that lived in infected areas knew, or are they uniquely 20th century?

[Dirt]

yeah that's what i mean T-Bone - it's curious that these hardcore viruses keep popping up in Africa.

I mean, were they always around and no one outside of those that lived in infected areas knew, or are they uniquely 20th century?

I don't have anything to support this, but I recall reading it back when the Ebola scare was happening however many years ago. Anyway apparently these viruses have been around for a while, but they only surface when conditions are right. Since the time from infection to incapacitation/death is so rapid it's hard for them to spread. Basically they need to be transferred from a host animal (in early stages of infection) to a human that will end up in a village within the next couple days.

I would guess it'd be hard to speculate how long they have been around in some form or another simply because you really need a reasonably dense population for the viruses to continue spreading. Single cases could have been occurring for who knows how long without ever really being noticed. Interesting stuff though.

[TBone4Eva]

I agree with Dirt. If you think about it, the environment of Africa is pretty extreme in some places. Extreme environments often produce extreme organisms. Australia is another good example. I think the more the continent of Africa is developed and there is more and more human expansion into those isolated jungles, the more contact there will be with the carriers of these diseases. Couple that with the speed of modern transportation and you can have a scenario like that protrayed in the movie "Outbreak", which was partly based on the Ebola virus.

Luckily these viruses seem to spread in nature by contact with infected bodily fluids, though it has been shown in lab settings that Ebola can be spread by droplets in the air. Again, this was only in a lab setting and has not been found to occur in nature.

[Owen]

America has had outbreaks that have killed 10s of thousands of people in the 20th centuary. Just look at the flu outbreaks. Africa isnt uniqe to disease. I think someone is jus leaning towards the 'America created AIDs and Ebola and and the rest and is spreading them, or at least not stopping them', side of things.
We just had a Ebola incident in Florida last week.
God.

[Dirt]

America has had outbreaks that have killed 10s of thousands of people in the 20th centuary. Just look at the flu outbreaks. Africa isnt uniqe to disease. I think someone is jus leaning towards the 'America created AIDs and Ebola and and the rest and is spreading them, or at least not stopping them', side of things.
We just had a Ebola incident in Florida last week.
God.

I don't know who your comment is directed at, but it doesn't really matter because I think you're way off. The reason AIDS and Ebola, Ebola-like viruses, etc. attract media attention isn't because of their origin, but rather their intrinsic qualities. They kill indiscriminately. Influenza on the other hand, only really kills old people and those with weak immune systems. You can't compare the two at all in my opinion.

Could you link any new stories about the Ebola incident in Florida? I Googled it and can't find anything. I'd be interested to read about it.

[Tryska]

i think he might be talking to me.


either way - Dirt what you say makes sense regarding population density and sprawl.

On AIDS tho - i have a tough time believing that virus is not manmade (no politics please) for one reason and one reaosn only. A couple years back I read this book on epidemiology and it had pictures of various deadly pathogens – HIV, smallpox, influenza, anthrax, etc – and most of these viruses were very simple one-celled organisms – but HIV was a whole different story – it was very complex and intricate – like looking at a geometric fractal. Comparing it to the other deadly viruses – it was remarkably different.

[Bohizzle]

I agree with Dirt. If you think about it, the environment of Africa is pretty extreme in some places. Extreme environments often produce extreme organisms. Australia is another good example. I think the more the continent of Africa is developed and there is more and more human expansion into those isolated jungles, the more contact there will be with the carriers of these diseases. Couple that with the speed of modern transportation and you can have a scenario like that protrayed in the movie "Outbreak", which was partly based on the Ebola virus.

Luckily these viruses seem to spread in nature by contact with infected bodily fluids, though it has been shown in lab settings that Ebola can be spread by droplets in the air. Again, this was only in a lab setting and has not been found to occur in nature.

I absolutely agree with you in that the deeper we go into the jungle, the higher the chances of encountering new and never before seen diseases that kill in a matter of days. I remember reading somewhere that ebola and other diseases of the sort were the jungle's way of trying to protect itself as if it had a mind of its own. It would create a virus to keep intruders out.

On another note, my parents were originally from Angola.

Andrew

[_8_Ball]

I remember reading somewhere that ebola and other diseases of the sort were the jungle's way of trying to protect itself as if it had a mind of its own. It would create a virus to keep intruders out.
Andrew

What is this the forest from Lord of the Rings... come on man... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

8

[_8_Ball]

On AIDS tho - i have a tough time believing that virus is not manmade (no politics please) for one reason and one reaosn only. A couple years back I read this book on epidemiology and it had pictures of various deadly pathogens – HIV, smallpox, influenza, anthrax, etc – and most of these viruses were very simple one-celled organisms – but HIV was a whole different story – it was very complex and intricate – like looking at a geometric fractal. Comparing it to the other deadly viruses – it was remarkably different.

I have though about this too..... nothing surprises me these days... with the all crap governments around the world are doing... this could just be another "test" that went wrong...

8

[shootermcgavin7]

iOn AIDS tho - i have a tough time believing that virus is not manmade (no politics please) for one reason and one reaosn only. A couple years back I read this book on epidemiology and it had pictures of various deadly pathogens – HIV, smallpox, influenza, anthrax, etc – and most of these viruses were very simple one-celled organisms – but HIV was a whole different story – it was very complex and intricate – like looking at a geometric fractal. Comparing it to the other deadly viruses – it was remarkably different.



This is an interesting theory Tryska. Just keep in mind that it certainly is very possible (if not probably) that evolution comes up with tons of complex living organisms on its own. No one really knows how long HIV was hopping around Africa before it discovered by the West.

Sickle-Cell Anemia was discovered in the 1900s by the west by had at least been recorded in Africa for centuries. HIV could have existed for centuries as well, but since it is usually another illness that kills the victim (due to the reduced immune system); any timeline pointed out is merely theoretical.

Like I said, its an interesting theory, and one that certainly deserves research, but complexity does not always equal man-made. Evolution creates some pretty intricate organisms.

[Manveet]

On AIDS tho - i have a tough time believing that virus is not manmade (no politics please) for one reason and one reaosn only. A couple years back I read this book on epidemiology and it had pictures of various deadly pathogens – HIV, smallpox, influenza, anthrax, etc – and most of these viruses were very simple one-celled organisms – but HIV was a whole different story – it was very complex and intricate – like looking at a geometric fractal. Comparing it to the other deadly viruses – it was remarkably different.

Well, I think we can all agree that the apparent complexity of the HIV virus is not enough evidence to suggest it is man-made. I've actually never heard of such a claim, do you any more evidence Tryska? (I'm not trying to be argumentative here)

[Tryska]

i've been trying to find the pictures on the web for years now. it was an epidemiology book i ran across in a library several years back. can't remember the name of the book or even the library - i'll do a look around tho.

[jack_of_all]

i think he might be talking to me.


either way - Dirt what you say makes sense regarding population density and sprawl.

On AIDS tho - i have a tough time believing that virus is not manmade (no politics please) for one reason and one reaosn only. A couple years back I read this book on epidemiology and it had pictures of various deadly pathogens – HIV, smallpox, influenza, anthrax, etc – and most of these viruses were very simple one-celled organisms – but HIV was a whole different story – it was very complex and intricate – like looking at a geometric fractal. Comparing it to the other deadly viruses – it was remarkably different.


viruses are not one celled organisms, they arent cells. its actually not that im nitpicking here, what im saying is that because they arent cells which are bound by trying to keep as little surface area to their volume (often shaped relatively spherical, cell walls are what make plant cells look all square, they hold it that way for protection and when they dry out you can see the round cytoplasm in the membrane) viruses form shapes much more similar to crystal formations because they arent alive. they are like computer chips, they hold information, cells do all their work for them. that said, viruses can easily form odd patterns,while bacteria, like antrhax, are bound to look like normal cells. when looking at pictures of viruses in google images many of them look highly similar in appearance, even HIV.

personally i think HIV evolved from a common anscestor as herpes, as both are retroviruses that are STD's.

also, another reason for HIV to appear remarkabley different from other viruses is that it IS remarkabley different seeing as how it performs a different function and is the single most deadly virus out there. also, i dont think we could have bio-engineered AIDS, in modern science it is pretty hard to use retroviruses to perform desired tasks much less CREATE an entire retrovirus with different symptoms and everything than all others.

[Tryska]

you really think HIV is the single most deadly virus out there?

[Dirt]

On AIDS tho - i have a tough time believing that virus is not manmade (no politics please) for one reason and one reaosn only. A couple years back I read this book on epidemiology and it had pictures of various deadly pathogens – HIV, smallpox, influenza, anthrax, etc – and most of these viruses were very simple one-celled organisms – but HIV was a whole different story – it was very complex and intricate – like looking at a geometric fractal. Comparing it to the other deadly viruses – it was remarkably different.

I think what you're saying is interesting, but probably for the case of HIV, I doubt it's true. Simply because of the way genetic engineering is headed now. jack_of_all touched on this somewhat already but over the last while they've been trying to utilize retroviruses to do all sorts of crazy stuff, with only limited success. If someone designed a retrovirus like HIV intentionally, you could assume there would be more rapid progress in the field than there is presently. This would be the case simply becasue if you knew how to successfully make a retrovirus like HIV you wouldn't have to reverse engineer or modify it in order to try and make new "useful" ones. Which is the sort of thing that is being done now.


you really think HIV is the single most deadly virus out there?

I don't think it's the most deadly virus out there, but its certainly intriguing for a lot of reasons. I think if it actually caused death more rapidly you could make a good argument for such a claim, but as is I don't think so. Onset of symptoms take far too long and it isn't very congtagious relative to a lot of other viruses (ie. the common cold). HIV/AIDS alone aren't even really fatal themselves, usually it's some other illness that causes death.

[Tryska]

Oh i wholeheartedly agree that it's a bit of a stretch - but that virus is something else. i thought it was quite beautiful actually, form an aesthetic point of view. maybe aliens made it.

[Dirt]

HIV:
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.healthinitiative.org/IMAGES/virus_big.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.healthinitiative.org/html/hiv/firstcontact/hivbig.htm&h=382&w=397&sz=124&tbnid=wOGwPmBmP6wJ:&tbnh=115&tbnw=120&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHIV%2Band%2Bvirus%2Band%2Bstructure%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

Not the type of picture you're talking about, but it's interesting anyway.

[Tryska]

that's a pretty cool picture. and it still looks like aliens made it.

[Asylum]

I could be completely wrong here, but I think historically a lot of it had to with their year-round warm river deltas + mosquitoes.

Not to mention their poor hygiene habits and lack of preventive medicine.

[Asylum]

i think he might be talking to me.


either way - Dirt what you say makes sense regarding population density and sprawl.

On AIDS tho - i have a tough time believing that virus is not manmade (no politics please) for one reason and one reaosn only. A couple years back I read this book on epidemiology and it had pictures of various deadly pathogens – HIV, smallpox, influenza, anthrax, etc – and most of these viruses were very simple one-celled organisms – but HIV was a whole different story – it was very complex and intricate – like looking at a geometric fractal. Comparing it to the other deadly viruses – it was remarkably different.

Interesting idea there Tryska. But you sort of noted that you believe it was man-made because of it's complexity. There is a type of virus called the # Poxviridae which are the largest and most complex of viruses. The Poxviruses incluce the smallpox virus. I don't think smallpox was man-made because the time it emerged was when they didn't have the technology to develop something like that. But check out this article, it's very interesting...
Interesting article (http://www.aegis.com/news/lt/1988/LT880601.html)

[jack_of_all]

when i said single most deadly i was talking %, not its raw skill to spread and kill. i mean the sheer power of the virus, which is there for very simple reasons, also, it hides pretty well and could easily accelerate in its spread because more people would spread it. eventually, in places like kenya, it will be so dangerous to have sex that the entire country will nearly die. ive seen stats from kenya and its a major % of the population, like half or something, has AIDS. and i know that aids isnt what kills you, but it CAUSES your death. ie: i impale someone with a rusty crowbar, they survive but die of tetanus, i am still the killer.

also, aliens?? i am pretty open-minded (well i try to be...) but that is further fetched than the government seeing as how we have yet to even prove the existance of aliens. now for a brief rant that ISNT targeted at anyone. i really hate it when people see like the nazca desert drawings or the pyramids and think aliens built them. its not like its that hard people.

[TBone4Eva]

Interestly enough, the way to control HIV might actually be found in Africa. I remember reading where some female prostitutes in Africa who were repeated exposed to HIV never became infected, but when their exposure was stopped for a while and then they were re-exposed they became infected. If we could find out how their bodies were able to resist infection it would help control it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/619316.stm

Another interesting thing I read recently is that HIV wipes out half of the immune system cells it targets in it's opening salvo.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=571&ncid=571&e=7&u=/nm/20050327/hl_nm/aids_infection_dc_3

What I find kind of curious is that it took a while for the virus to really start spreading like wildfire in Africa, yet they say HIV came from Africa. I would have thought Africa's population would have been further along in infection if that were true.

[Dirt]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050411/ap_on_re_af/angola_deadly_virus_6

Updated news story.

[Tryska]

my vote for most deadly would go to hemorraghic fevers for sheer blood and gore and kill rate, at infection, but over the long-term i'd go with malaria. Which Tbone - might be the operant behind the African infection rate.

the aliens remark was not meant to be serious, btw.

[Praetorian]

most deadly - as in kill rate or no of people killed so far?

Isn't Ebola the deadliest virus with a kill rate around 80+%?

edit. ebola = haemorrhagic fever

edit II. lol@ http://www.mindspring.com/~cinque/ebolover.html

[galileo]

i really hate it when people see like the nazca desert drawings or the pyramids and think aliens built them. its not like its that hard people.

Yeah, those pyramids were super easy to build. I mean, all they had to do was load up a few trucks and bring in the crane and BAM - pyramids.

[Dirt]

Yeah, those pyramids were super easy to build. I mean, all they had to do was load up a few trucks and bring in the crane and BAM - pyramids.

lol. I have to agree though, the pyramids are a pretty bad example. They still don't know for certain how they were bult.

[jack_of_all]

well we dont know for certain how they were built, but we do know how to build pyramids with only their technology and no high level math that they werent capable of.

[Manveet]

lol. I have to agree though, the pyramids are a pretty bad example. They still don't know for certain how they were bult.

We actually have a pretty good understanding of how they could have been built. Obviously we don't have any conclusive evidence, so it's not a surprise that many "archaeologists" have come up with their own ridiculous theories, and have written countless books about them.

[Dirt]

We actually have a pretty good understanding of how they could have been built. Obviously we don't have any conclusive evidence, so it's not a surprise that many "archaeologists" have come up with their own ridiculous theories, and have written countless books about them.

Fair enough. They obviously have more than a guess how they were built, but there still are a lot of unanswered questions. That was sort of my point. I generally agreed w/ what jack_of_all had to say though.

Anyway from one epidemic to another?
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050413/D89EI33O0.html

[Manveet]

Anyway from one epidemic to another?
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050413/D89EI33O0.html

Heard about that yesterday. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the avian flu yet.

[Bravo]

A good one to worry about. Nobody remembers it because the last time it came around was during WWI. It seems to mutate into a form transmissable from aquatic birds ---> pigs ---> humans every 100 years or so. So, it seems that we're just about due for another round. The strange thing about this influenza strain is that it's main targets are young, healthy adults as opposed to the elderly and children. Some links :

http://www.stanford.edu/group/virus/uda/
www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/1918flu.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Flu

www.ninthday.com/spanish_flu.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/597646.stm