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Shark
05-06-2005, 02:31 PM
I'm confused about something and I think maybe someone here can explain this to me a little better.

Itís my understanding that the human body uses carbohydrate energy in order to fuel its daily tasks. When we lift weights, we use carb energy to break down muscle tissue, and then our body repairs that tissue and increases its size and density. So, the idea behind eating more protein is that you body always has a steady source of material with which to repair muscles.

Ok, this is where I have problems. If a person starts to eat low/no carb then their body switches over to using Ketones to fuel its daily tasks. Now, everyone says that low carb is not good for a bodybuilder because you can't really gain muscle when eating a lot, and if you're cutting using a low carb approach then you will lose lots of muscle. That's what I don't get.

If I want to diet low carb, my protein is really high. As long as I keep hitting the gym and breaking down muscle tissue, my body is still going to have a huge source of protein from which it can pull what it needs to repair muscle tissue.

So then people say you're not going to have any energy if you're going low carb. What about taking 2 fat burners before you hit the gym and or using something like Clen which aids in fat loss and has anti-catabolic properties.

I guess I just don't understand why low carb is a bad approach to dieting while trying to maintain muscle.

Thanks in advance for anyone who can shed some light on this.

YungLifter
05-06-2005, 02:57 PM
I'd rather eat real food then take pills or w/e, thats just me though.

Slim Schaedle
05-06-2005, 03:00 PM
I guess I just don't understand why low carb is a bad approach to dieting while trying to maintain muscle.

To be very, very simple about it, your body does not break down only fat in the absensce of carbohydrates. Muscle tissue can be used as well.

Carboydrates have been dubbed as "protein sparing" b/c they allow amino acids (from the foods you eat) to be used for muscle repair, and may many other things. You could also call carbohydrates "muscle sparing" as well.

There are much more details into your rather wide topic, but I am only addressing the vague role of carbohydrates in "muscle retention" and anabolism.

ReelBigFish
05-06-2005, 03:20 PM
its because your body will break down more of the protein you eat for the necessary glucose you need instead of using it for muscle growth becuase of the absence of carbs.

Severed Ties
05-06-2005, 03:37 PM
The short answer is no insulin leads to less amino acid transport into the muscle cell and greater amino acid loss from the muscle cell.

ST

Built
05-06-2005, 03:48 PM
I used keto dieting to lose most of the weight when I was fat.

You've seen the muscle I carry.

I'm natural.

In my experience, if the fats stay high, low carb has been very muscle-sparing.

I continue to rely upon low carb, with carb cycling and lifting, as the mainstay of my dieting because of how effective it is for appetite control.

Shark
05-09-2005, 11:11 AM
What do you guys think about a low carb cutting diet with Clen for its muscle sparing properties and energy boost? Wouldn't that combineds with the appetite suppressing effects of the low carb diet be an effective cutting cycle? Isn't the PSMF just an extremely low calorie low carb diet anyway?

Unholy
05-09-2005, 11:51 AM
Yeah but you need refeeds, I seriously suggest getting the book UD 2.0, you will me a master of butrition after reading it. It describes in detail exactly what process's your body goes through when you go low carb, and why it is necasery to cycle in refeeds. Also Clen will definatly help with nutrition partitioning.

Built
05-09-2005, 12:04 PM
PSMF is low carb and low fat, which can be a recipe for putting the body into a protein-oxidative state. As I understand it, you'll chew through muscle if you're not real careful with the refeeds on that one. Seems to be safer for those with more adipose tissue. Perhaps that protects the muscle somehow? Not sure. I don't know enough about endocrinology, although I'd like to.

In general, low carb means "keep the fats higher".

I don't like my fats lower than about 40% of total cals on my low carb days.

Drai's
05-09-2005, 02:44 PM
I think people are overly concerned with muscle loss. Granted it is a big issue when cutting, but if you incorporate proper refeeding techniques (and at the right times) you will see the best results using a UD2 or PSMF-style diet. Muscle loss doesn't happen in a day, it takes time. It's only when you go too long between refeeds, (or even worse, don't refeed at all) that you risk losing much muscle. Aside from that, the negligible amount of muscle you may lose on one of the aforementioned diets pales in comparison to the large amount of fat you're losing.

Note: UD2 is a better example of a muscle-sparing cutting diet. For PSMF to be muscle-sparing, I would recommend much more frequent carb-ups than Lyle says, thus making it more like UD2.

Built
05-09-2005, 02:49 PM
I think it comes down to how precious your muscle is to you.

I'm a chick, natural, and over forty.

It's BRUTALLY hard packing on muscle. I am VERY careful when I cut. Probably a lot more careful than most guys, especially YOUNG guys, need to be.

Drai's
05-09-2005, 03:20 PM
UD2 was designed SPECIFICALLY to prevent muscle loss. That's more than can be said for your basic calorie restricted diet.

It's important to differentiate muscle loss and "feeling" smaller. Of course, on a low-carb, low-cal diet you're going to feel flat. However, after a successful carb-up you should feel full and leaner than the last week.

EviscerationX
05-10-2005, 03:27 AM
Healthy carbs actually help to burn fat. Carbs aren't bad for you...bad carbs are bad for you. Carbs aren't fattening, it's the crap you put on top of your carbs that's bad...like butter and whatnot. If you eat 5-6 small meals a day, you can keep your body in thermogenesis...which makes your metabolism burn like a furnace. Also, if you drink extra water during the day, it will also activate thermogenesis.

Carbs give you much more energy than if you went without them. There's no reason to make your body suffer. Taking in extra fat to save your muscle tissue from being burned for energy is an unhealthy approach, and will hurt you in the long run.

Low carb dieting can cause permanent, irreversible damage to your nerve tissues. Your brain needs an average of 60 carbs a day [low and medium glycemic] to perform basic neurological functions. Ketones are very unefficient compared to carbs in creating energy for your body. Low-carb dieting does more harm than good.

Drai's
05-10-2005, 12:14 PM
:rolleyes: to basically the entire post above.

Unholy
05-10-2005, 01:12 PM
Most people here will disagree with his post so dont worry about it.

Built
05-10-2005, 01:43 PM
Healthy carbs actually help to burn fat. Carbs aren't bad for you...bad carbs are bad for you. Carbs aren't fattening, it's the crap you put on top of your carbs that's bad...like butter and whatnot. If you eat 5-6 small meals a day, you can keep your body in thermogenesis...which makes your metabolism burn like a furnace. Also, if you drink extra water during the day, it will also activate thermogenesis.

Carbs give you much more energy than if you went without them. There's no reason to make your body suffer. Taking in extra fat to save your muscle tissue from being burned for energy is an unhealthy approach, and will hurt you in the long run.

Low carb dieting can cause permanent, irreversible damage to your nerve tissues. Your brain needs an average of 60 carbs a day [low and medium glycemic] to perform basic neurological functions. Ketones are very unefficient compared to carbs in creating energy for your body. Low-carb dieting does more harm than good.


OH - MY - GOD.


How did this post from my 1974 Health Class get in here? The one from the overweight school nurse who smoked...?




Bwahahahahahahahahaha!




Oh, that was so good it has GOT to be fattening!



Thanks for that.

*snort*

Unholy
05-10-2005, 01:50 PM
OH - MY - GOD.


How did this post from my 1974 Health Class get in here? The one from the overweight school nurse who smoked...?




Bwahahahahahahahahaha!




Oh, that was so good it has GOT to be fattening!



Thanks for that.

*snort*

Built you are my Hero.

Built
05-10-2005, 01:51 PM
And right now, you are mine.

:kiss:

Unholy
05-10-2005, 01:57 PM
I guess ignorance is bliss, atleast for some people.

Shao-LiN
05-10-2005, 07:48 PM
I guess ignorance is bliss, atleast for some people.

Carbs aren't fattening, though. You can lose weight on a balanced diet, lots of people do. It may not be the most optimal way to go about it, but carbs aren't the enemy per se. I find cyclical diets to be the best way to lose fat quickly, but that's not to say that one can't be successful with an isocaloric diet.

Unholy
05-10-2005, 08:02 PM
Cyclical diets are definatly the quickest way to burn fat. The shock value is awesome for gettin rid of fat quickly. That Sense was aimed at EviscerationX and his dated mentality from the 70's

EviscerationX
05-10-2005, 11:11 PM
Or not...

Drai's
05-11-2005, 08:52 AM
You can lose weight on a balanced diet, lots of people do. It may not be the most optimal way to go about it, but carbs aren't the enemy per se. I find cyclical diets to be the best way to lose fat quickly, but that's not to say that one can't be successful with an isocaloric diet.

The biggest problem with an isocaloric diet is that means you're doing your basic calorie restricted diet (500 cals below maintenance or whatever), which almost always inevitably leads to a loss in strength.

Shark
05-11-2005, 10:56 AM
Cyclical diets produce a larger loss in strength bro. At least with isocaloric you're still putting in carbs and you have that energy in the gym.

Built
05-11-2005, 11:00 AM
That's why I target my carbs around my lifts.

Best of both worlds, for me anyway.

Drai's
05-11-2005, 11:13 AM
Cyclical diets produce a larger loss in strength bro. At least with isocaloric you're still putting in carbs and you have that energy in the gym.

Only if you train like an idiot.

Sorry, but this misconception angers me. It's not rocket science, do your workouts around your carb-ups. Of course you're going to lose strength on low cals and low carbs, that's why you DON'T train these days.

TheGimp
05-11-2005, 11:28 AM
Only if you train like an idiot.

Sorry, but this misconception angers me. It's not rocket science, do your workouts around your carb-ups. Of course you're going to lose strength on low cals and low carbs, that's why you DON'T train these days.

What about UD2 glycogen depletion workouts? :scratch:

Drai's
05-11-2005, 11:33 AM
What about UD2 glycogen depletion workouts? :scratch:

Ok, let me re-phrase what I said to make it abundantly clear:

Plan your HEAVY workouts around your carb-ups. Save the other days for depletion workouts and cardio, cardio, and more cardio.

UD2 is a perfect example of a cyclical diet, where you train heavy only once/week, and you do not lose any (or very little) strength.

One goal of a cut should be maintaining strength. A single, heavy workout/week is plenty to accomplish this goal. Trying to train heavy throughout the week while on low carbs is counterproductive.

TheGimp
05-11-2005, 11:36 AM
Better :)