PDA

View Full Version : Bulking without eating alot of food theory



Twist
05-21-2005, 01:32 AM
I know when u bulk you want to intake as much calories u can from food. But i also know that eating a lot of protien will make muscles get bigger. So with that being said could this be done?

Just up your protien intake? I weight around 130lbs So if i take in about 200 grams of protien would i still gain muscle mass. I just dont like the idea of eating a lot and having excess fat. Id like to hear what everyone has to say about this subject.

smalls
05-21-2005, 01:56 AM
You dont have to gain tons of excess fat when you bulk, just gain slower and eat clean. But you do have to be in a caloric excess, if increasing your cals gets you there then yes you can bulk that way. But If you not gaining now, increasing your protein probably isnt going to be enough, for most people. Protein is not the key, calories are, there is no way around it.

Twist
05-21-2005, 02:03 AM
How do calories have an effect on gaining muscle. Maybe they give energy but im not sure how they work in making my muscles bigger.

smalls
05-21-2005, 02:15 AM
Your statement about energy pretty much gives you the basic answer to that question. Your body needs a certain amount of cals to function, once you meet that then your body can use excess cals to do good, or bad things. So without adaquate calories what is your body going to be doing with that extra protein? Not using it to build muscle. You need excess material for your body to build excess material.

Eric_Yager
05-21-2005, 02:18 PM
This is my first post over here, I should be a pretty frequent member.

In order to gain muscle you need to know the makeup of muscles and how the body builds the muscles. A natural preconcieved notion that many people have is that muscles are only made up of protein, and that isn't true. There are tons of things in muscles but the 4 main ones (in certain ratios) are protein, fat, carbohydrates, and water. Since our calories only come from 3 sources (protein, fat, carbohydrates) then in order to gain muscle you need a caloric excess (intaking more calories than the body uses in a day for your normal functions) in all three of those areas. Another notion that people generally have is that body fat is only made up of fat when in reality it is made up of 4 main "ingredients" which are water, protein, fat, and carbohydrates (in slightly different ratios than muscle). If you have a calorie excess, just upping your protein isn't going to automatically up your muscle mass only. There are a lot of tricks to working with partitioning (where your excess calories go) but the best way to do it is to start with a good starting point with your food intake and a good lifting program and track your progress very regularly. Start with, maybe, a 500 calorie excess in your diet with a large focus on carbohydrates (which have a massive role in partitioning because of its affects on..well its very complicated). Take in at <i>most</i> 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight (2.2 per kilo) and work out the other numbers from there. Example:

You have a 165 pound individual with 14% bodyfat looking to gain lean body mass. (male). If I were to set up a diet I would first take a 2 week effort to have him consume just enough food to where he doesn't gain nor lose weight in this time (this is called maintenance). After this I would take what he was eating for those 2 weeks (which for this example we'll say was 2500 calories a day with 165g of protein giving him 660 calories, 100g of fat giving him 900 calories, and 235g of carbohydrates giving him 940 calories) and add 500 calories. Since he is already getting adequete protein (excess protein causes health problems and protein plays less of a role in muscle building for the most part than carbohydrates) those 500 calories will be split up in an addition of 100g of carbohydrates (400 calories) and about a hundred calories from other sources, either a teeny bit of fat (9ish grams) or a combination of fat and protein. From this point I would track his weight gain and his body fat gain. I would aim for 1-1.5 pounds of weight gain a week (which should be done with 500 calories over maintenance figuring that it takes ~2800 calories per pound of muscle and 3500 calories per pound of fat) and I would aim for 1% of bodyfat gain per month (which is hard, but a good number to aim for..when I bulked I would generally hit the 1.5% mark).

smalls
05-21-2005, 02:35 PM
Please go into these health problems that protein causes. Detail. Does water intake come into play? What about total caloric intake. Please give examples and post references if possible. I dont want you opinion. I want fact.

Eric_Yager
05-21-2005, 02:45 PM
Please go into these health problems that protein causes. Detail. Does water intake come into play? What about total caloric intake. Please give examples and post references if possible. I dont want you opinion. I want fact.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8137607&query_hl=2

"Findings on the efficacy of nutritional supplements used by athletes are reviewed. Many athletes have turned away from anabolic steroids and toward nutritional supplements in the hope of gaining a competitive edge without threatening their health. Athletes may require slightly more protein than sedentary people do to maintain positive nitrogen balance, but it is dubious whether extra dietary protein will help someone to achieve athletic goals. Purified amino acids have become a popular if expensive form of protein supplementation; there is no scientific evidence, however, to support their use. Excessive protein supplementation can lead to dehydration, gout, liver and kidney damage, calcium loss, and gastrointestinal Supplementation with vitamins and minerals in excess of recommended daily allowances appears to have no effect on muscle mass or athletic performance. Other substances touted as having ergogenic properties are carnitine, cobamamide, growth hormone releasers, octacosanol, and ginseng; again, there is no reliable scientific evidence to support claims that products containing these compounds have ergogenic potential, and heavy supplementation may lead to adverse effects. Nutritional supplements are promoted through unsubstantiated claims by magazine advertisements, health food stores, coaches, and other sources. The FDA considers nutritional supplements to be foodstuffs, not drugs, and therefore has not required that they be proved safe and effective. Dosage guidelines are inadequate, and quality control is poor. The FDA has begun to revise regulations governing labeling and health claims for these products. There is little if any evidence that nutritional supplements have ergogenic effects in athletes consuming a balanced diet, and some products have the potential for harm."

Most of what I have learned I have learned through forums such as the bodyrecomp forum. Sources are easy to come by ftmp it just takes time to dig them up. I didn't go too in-depth about what carbohydrates to focus when, post workout effects, heres a good source on the latter:
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/scientific.php
provided it goes to the abcbodybuilding article on pwo carbohydrates. I always have followed the published medical research standpoint that excessive protein consumption (even with water intake, though this does play a role) is a negative thing and that unless you are on special supplementation (ie. steroids) that increase protein synthesis ridiculously (not like supposed supplements do) there is no reason to intake excessive protein where its not needed.

smalls
05-21-2005, 03:00 PM
[url] there is no reason to intake excessive protein where its not needed.


This is one thing we can agree on. But what is excessive for each person, when does it become "not needed". The 1gram per lb is more than enough for most people, but telling people that taking in more is dangerous is just too broad.
I didnt want a review of literature which restates what you did. I wanted a scientific explenation on how this damage occurs and at what intake level. Also I love it how you say there is damage "even with water intake" so dehydration is still a risk factor regardless of water intake?
Sorry to be a prick, but you'll get used to it. It seems everyone else here has. Dont state things as fact unless you can back it up. I would especially like info on the damage done on healthy liver and kidneys and if water intake will effect it. Thanks.

jack_of_all
05-21-2005, 03:07 PM
water intake is a major factor, and if you eat around 1gram per pound of bodyweight you have to have really crappy organs to have a problem with them as a result. so whatever studies you have, if they disagree with this they are wrong :micro: :spam: :zipit: :ninja: :lurk: :evillaugh :evillaugh

Eric_Yager
05-21-2005, 03:44 PM
This is one thing we can agree on. But what is excessive for each person, when does it become "not needed". The 1gram per lb is more than enough for most people, but telling people that taking in more is dangerous is just too broad.
I didnt want a review of literature which restates what you did. I wanted a scientific explenation on how this damage occurs and at what intake level. Also I love it how you say there is damage "even with water intake" so dehydration is still a risk factor regardless of water intake?
Sorry to be a prick, but you'll get used to it. It seems everyone else here has. Dont state things as fact unless you can back it up. I would especially like info on the damage done on healthy liver and kidneys and if water intake will effect it. Thanks.


I'll look for a good source. I guess I didn't iterate enough about the difference between people. My best advice is to play it safe and go for 1g/lb of body weight. Hell, I'm not even sure if I'll find a study explaining an exact level because its impossible to tell. My main point I guess is that nobody needs 5x (just to throw a level out there) their bodyweight in protein as a raw athlete regardless and that a *good* number is 1g/lb of bodyweight just like 500 calories over maintenance is a *good* number to aim for with weight gain. A lot of times the effects of excess protein on the body is overexaggerated. I'll grab a study on carbohydrate's effects on gaining weight too.

As for the prickedness..haha your definitly not being a prick, i'm not proving my point enough.

PowerManDL
05-21-2005, 03:59 PM
If I wanted to play it safe, I'd eat what the RDA recommends, I'd not take creatine, and I'd probably not shoot test in my ass.

Let's see numbers, or consider the "too much protein is dangerous LOL!!11" argument to be invalid.

MixmasterNash
05-21-2005, 04:04 PM
Let's see numbers, or consider the "too much protein is dangerous LOL!!11" argument to be invalid.

Too much protein is definately dangerous.

Too many carbs are probably more dangerous.

And to get too much protein, you'd probably have be mainlining entire salmon into your kidneys.

Eric_Yager
05-21-2005, 04:17 PM
If I wanted to play it safe, I'd eat what the RDA recommends, I'd not take creatine, and I'd probably not shoot test in my ass.

Let's see numbers, or consider the "too much protein is dangerous LOL!!11" argument to be invalid.


Aren't you in bodyrecomp?

Eric_Yager
05-21-2005, 04:24 PM
If I wanted to play it safe, I'd eat what the RDA recommends, I'd not take creatine, and I'd probably not shoot test in my ass.

Let's see numbers, or consider the "too much protein is dangerous LOL!!11" argument to be invalid.

Wasn't my point that there isn't a set number and the "play it safe" arguement is the best bet?

Twist
05-21-2005, 05:40 PM
So without adaquate calories what is your body going to be doing with that extra protein? Not using it to build muscle.

So if u dont have enough calories to burn while working out it will start to burn off protien or muscle?


If I were to set up a diet I would first take a 2 week effort to have him consume just enough food to where he doesn't gain nor lose weight in this time (this is called maintenance).

How would one do this?

So is it safe to consume more 1g of protien per 1lb bodyweight if one consumes a lot of water...

im already learning a great deal from this thread thanks...

Eric_Yager
05-21-2005, 05:46 PM
So without adaquate calories what is your body going to be doing with that extra protein? Not using it to build muscle.QUOTE]

So if u dont have enough calories to burn while working out it will start to burn off protien or muscle?

[QUOTE=Eric_Yager]If I were to set up a diet I would first take a 2 week effort to have him consume just enough food to where he doesn't gain nor lose weight in this time (this is called maintenance).

How would one do this?

So is it safe to consume more 1g of protien per 1lb bodyweight if one consumes a lot of water...

im already learning a great deal from this thread thanks...


Easiest way to figure out maintenance is to start with some number of calories (like 14x the bodyweight in pounds) and keep a daily weight of one's self (i like to go morning after the bathroom and before food) to make sure that they weight doesn't go up or down. The problem would come up with water retention depending on what kind of diet the person had beforehand, but if you go for a week or so you can figure out if you have maintenance or not. 2 weeks is a kinda short time to figure out maintenance though if you don't already have a good idea of what yours is. Maybe 3 weeks with the first week as somewhat of an adjustment week. The next two weeks eat the same amount of calories and carbohydrates each day (carbohydrates play a large role in water retention and can play with your weight) and track whatever weight gain or loss you have in those 2 weeks and from there you can adjust as necessary to figure out maintenance.

Built
05-21-2005, 05:49 PM
I regularly consume about 1.5g protein per pound bodyweight.

So far, so good.

And I get my kidney function checked every year with my checkups.

YungLifter
05-22-2005, 03:42 PM
hey im not even working out right now b/c of an injury and im gettin 200g+ of protein daily. I only weigh about 125 atm. Hate being so damn skinny=(

HahnB
05-22-2005, 03:50 PM
If I wanted to play it safe, I'd eat what the RDA recommends, I'd not take creatine, and I'd probably not shoot test in my ass.

Let's see numbers, or consider the "too much protein is dangerous LOL!!11" argument to be invalid.

I think your quotes get better with age like a fine wine. Anyways, almost every exsessive eating habit can be called dangerous. Compare for instance a bodybuilder who eats exsessive protein, and compare that to a fat ass that eats fast food 3 times a day and is 100lbs overweight. Which is worse-assuming that eating all this protein is even linked to health problems. I think the "exsessive protein" people on this planet have the least to worry about diet/health wise-because most of them are in good shape.

Wild Cat McCane
05-22-2005, 08:19 PM
that abc website is great.

Check it out, its very comprehensive. There has been serveral times where I have read some stuff on this site that has been created purely by people who think they know what they are talking about.

Slim Schaedle
05-22-2005, 08:58 PM
Since our calories only come from 3 sources (protein, fat, carbohydrates) then in order to gain muscle you need a caloric excess (intaking more calories than the body uses in a day for your normal functions) in all three of those areas.
While the relation to bodybuilding and, in particular, this thread topic is minimal, there are not only 3 sources of calories. The fourth macronutrient you did not mention is alcohol. One gram has 7 kCal/gram.


(excess protein causes health problems and protein plays less of a role in muscle building for the most part than carbohydrates)
Are you saying that if you have excess protein, then the excess is not as important as the carbohydrate, or simply that carbohydrate is more important in muscle building than protein?

Twist
05-22-2005, 10:27 PM
thats a good question... So if u have more than enough protien to use.. thencarbs are more dominate in muscle building role play?

TheGimp
05-23-2005, 06:22 AM
thats a good question... So if u have more than enough protien to use.. thencarbs are more dominate in muscle building role play?

Once you are eating at least 1g / lb of bodyweight in protein a day, calorie intake is going to be the limiting factor. Given that approximately 20% of protein's energy content must be expended in order to digest it, carbs and fats would be the superior choice.