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eric1214
05-23-2005, 02:00 AM
Should I be counting protein from my oatmeal, bread, rice, pb,etc.???
Or just my eggs,whey,meats, etc.???

If i wanted to consume 1-1.5 g of protein should i not count the proteins from other foods???

thanks!

thajeepster
05-23-2005, 02:13 AM
good question... i was wondering the same, bump.

HILL
05-23-2005, 02:43 AM
As far as im aware you should count protein from everything i include it even from milk as your counting your calories from everything im having between 300g and 400 at the moment and could never reach that unless i was counting it from everything

TheGimp
05-23-2005, 06:17 AM
Count it. It's not going to waste.

eddie500
05-23-2005, 06:40 AM
Thats the unfortunate thinig, with the 1 gram of protein per body weight you have to only count "HIGH quality protein".

This is plant protein that has already been synthsized by animals. So you must only count protein from meats, eggs, milk for the 1 gream per pound.

If it was only that easy to count the protein from breads,pasta, potatoes etc.

Shao-LiN
05-23-2005, 07:01 AM
Count from everything.

getfit
05-23-2005, 07:27 AM
i agree i count everything!

TheGimp
05-23-2005, 08:23 AM
Thats the unfortunate thinig, with the 1 gram of protein per body weight you have to only count "HIGH quality protein".

Says who?

ReelBigFish
05-23-2005, 10:55 AM
i would just make sure you get your 1 to 1.5g/lb from complete protein sources and then consider everything else extra, because you do not know that your body will utilize the incomplete proteins becuase you may not have eaten the right foods to make a "match" so to say.

TheGimp
05-23-2005, 11:05 AM
because you do not know that your body will utilize the incomplete proteins becuase you may not have eaten the right foods to make a "match" so to say.

Very few foods are incomplete proteins (only gelatin comes to mind right now).

Given that amino acids will remain in the bloodstream for around four hours, if you have anything resembling a sensible diet then your eating frequency will ensure that low quality proteins are not a problem.

The 1g / lb of bodyweight in protein is a value that has been rounded up from 0.8 g / lb and is intended that one is absolutely sure they are consuming enough protein for maximum muscle building. Once you have reached this level the limiting factor is no longer protein but calorie intake, and given that 20% of protein's energy content must be expended in order to digest it, you are simply making life difficult for yourself by forcing yourself to eat more protein.

JeffWillConquer
05-23-2005, 02:11 PM
protein is protein is protein.

ReelBigFish
05-23-2005, 03:10 PM
Very few foods are incomplete proteins (only gelatin comes to mind right now).

.
You may want to think a little harder. All vegetable proteins are imcomplete. i.e. legumes, grains, nuts and seeds are all incomplete.

boxingtigger
05-23-2005, 03:24 PM
All protein should be counted. Unless it comes from a liquid state. The body treats this type of protein different. You want good clean solid food protein to count. Only a small amount of liquid protein is actually used, the rest is pasted through. Any more than 50 grams of liquid protein is wasted. So I would caution you on counting liquid protein.

HILL
05-23-2005, 04:03 PM
so you are saying that its best to get your cals than from shakes you make at home is their a difference from getting protein from say tuna or chicken than getting it from a shake i make up with oats pb whey and milk
just out if curiousity as im bulking and getting most if not all of my 5000 cals from shakes which are
300ml milk
2 scoop whey
100g oats
20g natty pb

Rik-s
05-23-2005, 04:33 PM
Thats the unfortunate thinig, with the 1 gram of protein per body weight you have to only count "HIGH quality protein".

This is plant protein that has already been synthsized by animals. So you must only count protein from meats, eggs, milk for the 1 gream per pound.

If it was only that easy to count the protein from breads,pasta, potatoes etc.
May be someone can correct me if i'm wrong, but i've read that if you consume some Complete protiens with Incomplete protiens it completes the amino acid chain giving it useablity?

TheGimp
05-23-2005, 04:33 PM
You may want to think a little harder. All vegetable proteins are imcomplete. i.e. legumes, grains, nuts and seeds are all incomplete.

You may want to get your information from a more up to date source. Calling these proteins incomplete is a misnomer as they contain all amino acids, simply some in limited quantities.

TheGimp
05-23-2005, 04:37 PM
All protein should be counted. Unless it comes from a liquid state. The body treats this type of protein different. You want good clean solid food protein to count. Only a small amount of liquid protein is actually used, the rest is pasted through. Any more than 50 grams of liquid protein is wasted. So I would caution you on counting liquid protein.

Where do you get this stuff from? :(

TheGimp
05-23-2005, 04:43 PM
May be someone can correct me if i'm wrong, but i've read that if you consume some Complete protiens with Incomplete protiens it completes the amino acid chain giving it useablity?

It is correct that proteins are complimentary. Furthermore eating a high quality protein with lower quality ones essentially makes up for the low quality. That is what I was alluding to in my earlier post.

spencerjrus
05-23-2005, 05:46 PM
Any more than 50 grams of liquid protein is wasted. So I would caution you on counting liquid protein.


I would caution you on posting things that ridiculous on these forums.

Built
05-23-2005, 05:49 PM
I just throw it all into fitday and let it work its magic.

I eat so damned much protein, I don't really care which parts "count" and which parts don't. It's still calories.

body
05-23-2005, 06:15 PM
count it

body
05-23-2005, 06:17 PM
It is correct that proteins are complimentary. Furthermore eating a high quality protein with lower quality ones essentially makes up for the low quality. That is what I was alluding to in my earlier post.

even eating two low quality protien source, that have a differing amino acid in a low ratio. can be added togther to get a high quailty protien as well.

otherwise vegeterians would not get muscley. eg bill pearl

Shao-LiN
05-23-2005, 06:36 PM
Your diet should be varied enough in protein sources where you don't have to worry about "incomplete proteins". If you were relying on wheat bread as your sole source of protein, then I would worry, but as long as you have a good diet including protein from various sources (beef, poultry, dairy, etc. etc.), then the rationale that you should not count protein from "incomplete sources" does not matter much, if at all.

Also, more than 50g of liquid protein goes to waste? What newbie message board did you read that from?

TheGimp
05-23-2005, 06:57 PM
even eating two low quality protien source, that have a differing amino acid in a low ratio. can be added togther to get a high quailty protien as well.

otherwise vegeterians would not get muscley. eg bill pearl

Absolutely. I was merely saying that not only do two low quality complementary proteins result in a high quality protein source, which is what people often refer to when talking about combining proteins, but also (obviously) high quality proteins make up for lower quality ones.

And like Shao-LiN says, one is (should be) eating high quality proteins (including vegetarian sources like eggs and dairy) with such a frequency that low quality proteins are simply not an issue.

getfit
05-23-2005, 07:13 PM
Absolutely. I was merely saying that not only do two low quality complementary proteins result in a high quality protein source, which is what people often refer to when talking about combining proteins, but also (obviously) high quality proteins make up for lower quality ones.

And like Shao-LiN says, one is (should be) eating high quality proteins (including vegetarian sources like eggs and dairy) with such a frequency that low quality proteins are simply not an issue.
sorry gimp a little off topic but do you eat eggs and consume dairy at all i also posted in your journal and asked you the same question :)

TheGimp
05-23-2005, 07:37 PM
sorry gimp a little off topic but do you eat eggs and consume dairy at all i also posted in your journal and asked you the same question :)

You've got mail!

getfit
05-23-2005, 07:42 PM
You've got mail!
i do and read ;)

body
05-24-2005, 03:33 AM
Absolutely. I was merely saying that not only do two low quality complementary proteins result in a high quality protein source, which is what people often refer to when talking about combining proteins, but also (obviously) high quality proteins make up for lower quality ones.

.

I was just adding on to you. to help show that some people worry to much about protien intakes when not need.

chris mason
05-24-2005, 05:53 AM
Count all protein. Many plant derived proteins are incomplete in that they are lacking in some essential amino acid(s) or have all of the essential amino acids but too little of one or more of them.

You should still count the protein from them because of the fact that other foods are complementary. So, a food lacking in one amino acid but combined with another which has an excess of that amino acid still ends up making a complete protein source.

There are complicating circumstances but you should count all protein in your diet when trying to reach your ingestion goal.

boxingtigger
05-25-2005, 07:28 AM
As far as some of you cautioning me about posting my take on liquid protein. You may not agree with me, but consider the following. Over the last month I have spent many hours with sport med doctors, nutrition people and have spoken to several people on this very topic. So when you actually put in the research and not just some article that you read on line or some one elses option. Then you can talk. Out of the 5 doctors and nutrition people I've seen, they all support not counting over 50 grams of liquid proteins. Go see your doctor, they will tell you the same. Your body treats liquid protein different and it doesn't all get used. In fact a high amount of liquid proteins is very hard on the kidneys.

Anthony
05-25-2005, 07:52 AM
boxingtigger, can you provide some medical references to back up your claims?

boxingtigger
05-25-2005, 08:37 AM
Other than actually having the sport med doctors and nutrition people put something in writting, no. You want solid proof, go see your own doctor. They will support what I am saying. Or better yet, you can prove it to yourself. Consume your liquid protein then wait about 30-45 mins. and when you take a piss, dip it. They sell protein dip sticks to show if your body is handling the amount of protein you are consuming. You will find that your body can not process that much liquid protein at one time. Thus, this can lead to kidney problems. The dips aren't cheap, but if you want proof, spend the money.

boxingtigger
05-25-2005, 09:03 AM
Also, if you are willing to take the time read some medical articles, goto wedmd.com and type in excess protein. You will find 100's of articles. Sum it up - You do what you want or need to do. I'll do what I need to do. What works for one may not be the answer for some. To hang someone out because they responded to a thread is stupid. I do believe this is a FORUM. FORUM - meeting, debate, discussin, round table. So stop the finger pointing...do your homework and not just on bodybuilding forums.

Anthony
05-25-2005, 09:24 AM
I never insulted you or your statement. I asked for medical references out of curiousity. If all doctors are aware of liquid protein causing problems, it should be easily referenced. Even the name of a text with a page number would be a start. Making claims that are out of the ordinary puts the burden of proof on you, not us. Don't be insulted by it.

Second, the excessive protein causing kidney problems has been debated by people much smarter than us, and there's still no evidence to prove or disprove. The best they have (to my knowledge) is a study on rats with kidney disease that consumed tremendous amounts of protein.

And lastly, I did a search on webmd like you suggested and found this article: http://my.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/hw6580.asp


Protein in the urine usually indicates kidney damage or disease that can be caused by conditions such as an infection, cancer, high blood pressure, diabetes, systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE), or glomerulonephritis.

Protein in the urine can also be caused by heart failure, leukemia, poison (lead or mercury poisoning), or a condition during pregnancy that results in high blood pressure (preeclampsia).



Oh, I had a question. What is liquid protein?

boxingtigger
05-25-2005, 09:33 AM
Yes, I will agree to the one article that you found. I too have read this. There are many more that go into depth about protein. To answer your question, liquid protein that I am referring to would be mainly protein supplements, powders. Also, any excess use of milk, exceeding more than 1/2 gallon a day. I wasn't taking the insult from you direct. There was another post by some one else that I was responding to.

chris mason
05-25-2005, 09:38 AM
Protein digestion rate has been shown to be an independent factor in net protein retention. So, to that end it might be that protein in a liquid form (milk, etc.) consumed with nothing else (no solids) MIGHT result in a slightly lower net retention relative to the same amount of protein consumed in a solid food form. The difference would be small.

With respect to doctors, quite frankly, most of them don't know much about nutrition. Their education involves very little about nutrition and unless they do their own indepedent study they are not likely to know more than the average Joe.

Anthony
05-25-2005, 09:41 AM
I'd be very interested in seeing any studies you can find on "liquid protein." Specifically, studies that reference the numbers you have mentioned. Ie, 50 grams per meal and 1/2 gallon per day. Those numbers had to come from some where.

boxingtigger
05-25-2005, 09:46 AM
Yes, these numbers come from the doctors that I've seen. I will have to ask them for medical reference.

chris mason
05-25-2005, 09:50 AM
Lol, you won't find any.

TheGimp
05-25-2005, 10:00 AM
Also, any excess use of milk, exceeding more than 1/2 gallon a day.

Perhaps you would care to explain the mechanics as to why milk in excess of this quantity cannot be digested. As I am sure you are well aware, casein forms a clot in the stomach causing it to be digested over a period of around 7 hours.

body
05-25-2005, 12:44 PM
Also, if you are willing to take the time read some medical articles, goto wedmd.com and type in excess protein. .

see the word "EXCESS". why when you comsume 50grams or more of liquid protien does it become excess. why not 49 or 51 grams or even 100 grams?

and as other said like gimp with milk digestion taking up to 7 hours.

the people I know with nutrition degree have never said that consuming more than 50gram of liquid protein in a meal will not be counted.

Built
05-25-2005, 01:54 PM
A whey shake isn't liquid protein.

Whey is a solid that's suspended in liquid.
http://www.americanchemistry.com/chemmag.nsf/WebMagazineArticle?ReadForm&mfpk-543mut

And I would LOVE to see some of the research your seem to think your doctors relied upon.

Rik-s
05-26-2005, 12:13 PM
Thanks for the info peoples, seems i've been miscounting my protien intake by about 40-70g per day :rolleyes: :D