Free Squats

[IronKidd]

Someone told me they haven't worked their legs in the gym for years and they're leg routine consists of lots and lots of free squats/Hindu squats etc. They usually do about 500 at a time without stopping.

How would a leg routine with hundreds of free squats hold up against 30-40 weighted squats?

I personally quite enjoy Hindu squats more than squatting at the gym with weight. I'd like to switch over totally but I'm not sure how it would hold up; I mean, my goal isn't to attain 45 inch legs or anything; I just don't want to lose what muscle my legs do have or not be able to make gains with free squats only.

And by the way, I would still do deadlifts for my hamstrings.

[Doobs]

For endurance, 100s of squats would be better, but for strength or hypertrophy (building or maintaining muscle) 100s would do barely anything for you. It's like doing 200 crunches - people who know what they're doing and don't have endurance issues would not do it.

[smalls]

Well what are your goals exactly, and why would you continue to deadlifts for hams? Higher rep ranges are going to bring on adaptation in slow twitch muscle fibers vs fast twitch. Which means far less to zero strength gains and no size gains. Dependend on the amount of muscle your legs have now, I would assume you would lose size and strength by switching to an extremely high rep range.

[wrestlemaniac]

We're both training to be wrestlers (I know IronKidd) the guy he mentioned is a successfull pro that works in japan and one day told us to try this out. He needs hip strength to lift heavy guys etc. I don't think I'm going to switch personally, I know we need the endurance but we also need the strength. Anyone know a good way to do both? How many hindu squats can we do to improve indurance before we're cutting into strength gains? maybe stop before failure? (I just thought I'd help since IronKidd is in bed now lol).

[WBBIRL]

Well to be honest, free weights are just about the most superior tools for strenght gains. If your worried about endurance then Id suggest something like a cycle... do heavy weight low reps for 2 weeks to a month and then do light weight high reps for 2 weeks to a months. I dont suggest using no weights at all, there are better means for things like that... such as jumping rope or doing apple jacks.

[Canadian Crippler]

We're both training to be wrestlers (I know IronKidd) the guy he mentioned is a successfull pro that works in japan and one day told us to try this out. He needs hip strength to lift heavy guys etc. I don't think I'm going to switch personally, I know we need the endurance but we also need the strength. Anyone know a good way to do both? How many hindu squats can we do to improve indurance before we're cutting into strength gains? maybe stop before failure? (I just thought I'd help since IronKidd is in bed now lol).
Good job on getting started with that; where are you guys training at?

Anyways, as you mentioned hip strength is freakin' important in wrestling (try giving a headlock takeover to a stiff; you really gotta throw them over). Doing hundreds of squats won't build this strength. Stick to heavy squats, preferebly with a wider stance. Core strength is important as well so make sure to hit your abs and lower back heavy.

Theres other ways to improve endurance besides hitting hundreds of squats. Think about a wrestling match; do you EVER do any regular squats? Is there one hold or move that involves you to do squat hundreds of times in a row? Stick to a plyometrical routine instead, as it mimics a wrestling match FAR greater than calisthenics(sp?), and will also help improve your vert.

No reason to copy what the wrestler do. There are some guys at my gym who are very good and very succesful but know **** all about training. Being BIG and STRONG are important as hell in wrestling unless you plan to be an indy cruiserweigther for your whole career. Don't let your endurance training get in the way of that.

[wrestlemaniac]

Brandon's training at BJ's Gym in Calgary. I'm saving to move out there this summer. To be honest (and I can't speak for Brandon but I'm sure he'd agree) our long term goals are geared more towards japan than mainstream wrestling. With that said of course we want to succeed there too (who gets in the industry that honestly can say they don't want to work for the WWE one day) but I realize with my "verticle disadvantages" I'm almost doomed to the "indy cruiserweight" devision that you mentioned.

Anyway, what are some plyomtreics you suggest. I'm very interested in hearing your advice in perticular because you recognize the need for a good squat and train for wrestling. The person who told us to do 500 hindu squats a day I recently found out doesn't lift heavy. Even though I admire him and want to be where he is one day and would hate to ignore any advice he would give I personally don't really think throwing out heavy squats is good advice in any situation (unless, of course, it has to do with an injury).

[Canadian Crippler]

a) Different things work for different people.
b) Most big guys know less than little guys, since they usually get big just be looking at a weight hence have no reason to conduct any valuable research.

I am saving up to purchase a book from a store that explains plyometrics and plyometrical routines, and includes sections on how to incorporate plyometrics without it disruping other goals such as size and strength. When I get the book (some day) I'll give you a PM which would suit our goal in wrestling. Until then, you can do a google search with "plyometrics routine" and follow something you find there, or make your own. Plyometrics = jumping. Whether this be done solely off your ankles, deep into a squat, off a box, side ways, forwards.... mimic jumping and you are doing plyometrics.

Do a lot of cardio. Treadmill, elliptical, track, rower... whatever the hell you want. They all accomplish the same goal.

To conclude, In my opinion cardiovascular endurance, balance, flexibility, certain strengths and size (what heavy lifting + eating + plyometrics + cardio + stretching offer) are far, far more important that muscular endurance (what calisthenics offers).

One more thing; if you are dead out of breathe during a plyometrical routine everytime you do it, that can count as cardio.

[wrestlemaniac]

Awesome, thanks for the advice. Whats the book you're purchasing? maybe I might pick up a copy somewhere too.

[Canadian Crippler]

This is the book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0944831281/qid=1118466341/sr=8-3/ref=pd_csp_3/103-2682524-7957413?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) however it's going for $36.99 @ Coles if I am not mistaken. I'm also going to be buying this book. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0940149451/qid=1118466487/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-2682524-7957413?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

Just wanted to re-conclude something. Let's think of a wrestling match.
- You are supposed to look good (size).
- You run around the ring taking bumps and doing moves, it gets tiresome (cardio).
- You pick up guys and use your power to complete each move safely and effectively (strength).
- Most people use kicks, and you as well put a guy in holds, you get put in holds, and they are supposed to look like they hurt (flexibility).
- You springboard, you go to the top rope, you fly around, and you hold up heavy weight at peculiar angles (balance)

No where in a wrestling match does muscular endurance alone actually play a vital role, so why train for it?

[wrestlemaniac]

I dunno, but thats what they all do in japan so...

[WBBIRL]

I dont agree, is there any kind of scientific research that would indicate that bigger, heavier people are naturally stronger and have an easier time getting bigger/stronger??? Now I mean can the strength they have before training be directly correlated with body size/mass, further more can it be proven that strength and size are gained faster/easier by people who are already bigger and stronger (before starting any training of course).

Now Im not half the 14-15 yr olds on here that can bench 365 but im fairly strong for my age. I've been told (espically by this kid who wrestles in the 135lb weight class at our school) that my size is what makes me strong and that if I didn't weigh so much I wouldn't be able to put up anywhere near the numbers I can. I know this kid works much harder then I do and his numbers dont show that but I mean comon just because I weigh 300lbs I should be benching that much?!?!?!?! I know people who are 210-270 that aren't strong at all... in fact the weakest being the 270lb kid. Can anyone fill me in here.

[Sensei]

a) Different things work for different people.
b) Most big guys know less than little guys, since they usually get big just be looking at a weight hence have no reason to conduct any valuable research.

To conclude, In my opinion cardiovascular endurance, balance, flexibility, certain strengths and size (what heavy lifting + eating + plyometrics + cardio + stretching offer) are far, far more important that muscular endurance (what calisthenics offers).

One more thing; if you are dead out of breathe during a plyometrical routine everytime you do it, that can count as cardio.

Geez Crippler... I realize you've qualified your statement w. "most" to give you an out here, but you're way off. Ever think that maybe the bigger guy got that way through trial and error?

If you are doing 100s of reps, it's cardio and NOT muscular endurance. Doing 20 reps squats would be muscular endurance and not a bad idea for mixed martial artists, wrestlers, etc.

If you are out of breath during a plyometric workout, you are doing it wrong and need to stop and reevaluate before you get injured!

WrestleManiac,
This board might be able to give you some good general training advice, but you really should seek out wrestling coaches and athletes that can give you more specific suggestions and have actually been through what you need rather than base their advice on speculation, point you in some general direction and say "go".
You might get less dialogue at those places, but the advice will probably be more tested... Just a thought.

[Canadian Crippler]

Geez Crippler... I realize you've qualified your statement w. "most" to give you an out here, but you're way off. Ever think that maybe the bigger guy got that way through trial and error?90% of the big guys I have talked to are absolute morons when it comes to training. Most in pro wrestling are like this.


If you are doing 100s of reps, it's cardio and NOT muscular endurance. Doing 20 reps squats would be muscular endurance and not a bad idea for mixed martial artists, wrestlers, etc.I would classify hindu squats, independant of the rep range, muscular endurance. Maybe I have my definition wrong here though. Either way, what I mean is training for hundreds of reps in anything really has no correlation with pro wrestling.

to wrestlemaniac: On that note, strengths are very transferrable. I remember when I first started training I would die out doing all the ab/hip warmups; all us new guys would. I'm the only new guy who decided to train in the ways I have explained as opposed to doing 500 hindu squats a night, and while we can now complete this warmup with ease I'm the only new guy who doesn't get blown up in the ring after 5 minutes. I've also increased my size drastically as well as my vertical jump, meanwhile they haven't. Yet they still swear by there methods. I'm not saying they haven't improved, just not as drastically as I have. I'm also not saying to follow my methods exactly how I do; you don't need to follow them one bit. I'm just saying rather than doing 200 pushups a night just because some succesful worker from Japan does it, take a look at what aspects you ACTUALLY need for pro wrestling and apply each of them without them interfering with one another. Hope I have helped :).


If you are out of breath during a plyometric workout, you are doing it wrong and need to stop and reevaluate before you get injured!This isn't true at all. For example Pylon Jumps, an exercise performed by MANY sports athletes (specifically football and basketball) will leave most fully out of breathe.


This board might be able to give you some good general training advice, but you really should seek out wrestling coaches and athletes that can give you more specific suggestions and have actually been through what you need rather than base their advice on speculation, point you in some general direction and say "go".
You might get less dialogue at those places, but the advice will probably be more tested... Just a thought.wrestlemaniac is training for Pro Wrestling not amateur. The "coaches" usually have no professional experience in regards to fitness in any form.

[Sensei]

90% of the big guys I have talked to are absolute morons when it comes to training. Most in pro wrestling are like this.

99% of most people, regardless of size, are morons when it comes to training - period. So what? How many pro wrestlers do you know??


I would classify hindu squats, independant of the rep range, muscular endurance. Maybe I have my definition wrong here though. Either way, what I mean is training for hundreds of reps in anything really has no correlation with pro wrestling.

You have your defintion wrong. Like I said, a 20 rep squat would be muscular endurance & anaerobic threshold training. It would be very applicable to wrestling and "pro" wrestling. You are correct that Hindu squats would have no application to either wrestling or pro wrestling.


to wrestlemaniac: On that note, strengths are very transferrable... I'm just saying rather than doing 200 pushups a night just because some succesful worker from Japan does it, take a look at what aspects you ACTUALLY need for pro wrestling and apply each of them without them interfering with one another. Hope I have helped :).

Well, now you're jumping fences!


For example Pylon Jumps, an exercise performed by MANY sports athletes (specifically football and basketball) will leave most fully out of breathe.

Plyometric training is abused by many coaches who know nothing about power development and conditioning - football coaches are among the worst offenders because many of them think because they used to lift that they are qualified.
Read this:http://inno-sport.net/HS%20Training%20Problems%204.htm


wrestlemaniac is training for Pro Wrestling not amateur. The "coaches" usually have no professional experience in regards to fitness in any form.

I was referring to coaches w. expertise in the fields of strength/conditioning and wrestling (amateur or "pro"). I have a feeling that many "pro" wrestling coaches probably know more than you think. Even if they have no academic knowledge, they will at least have personal experience in the field and probably have more resources than someone like yourself...

[Canadian Crippler]

99% of most people, regardless of size, are morons when it comes to training - period. So what? How many pro wrestlers do you know??All I meant was don't believe every word out of that guys mouth just because he is big and fit.


You have your defintion wrong. Like I said, a 20 rep squat would be muscular endurance & anaerobic threshold training. It would be very applicable to wrestling and "pro" wrestling. You are correct that Hindu squats would have no application to either wrestling or pro wrestling.I agree with this.


Plyometric training is abused by many coaches who know nothing about power development and conditioning - football coaches are among the worst offenders because many of them think because they used to lift that they are qualified.
Read this:http://inno-sport.net/HS%20Training%20Problems%204.htmI'm getting out of breathe even looking at those videos! ;), honestly though thanks for the link. I've obviously been misinformed by the common trend of "strengh and power" coaches.


I was referring to coaches w. expertise in the fields of strength/conditioning and wrestling (amateur or "pro"). I have a feeling that many "pro" wrestling coaches probably know more than you think. Even if they have no academic knowledge, they will at least have personal experience in the field and probably have more resources than someone like yourself...Hmm, well since I'm in the field + do more research than 99% of them I would say that I, in most cases, am more knowledgable then them.