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Gutz981
06-10-2005, 10:47 AM
alright in this given link: http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=46 I need some clarifycation on some of the lifts like on ME bench when it says Close grip incline bench does it accually mean close close grip like hand 6 inches apart or does it mean that don't have an abnormally wide grip? I'm thinking about getting into westside for the summer and thought I'd try to get some things straighted out first

drew
06-10-2005, 10:49 AM
Close grip is with your hands on the smooth part of the bar. bend your elbows and put them at your sides, wherever your hands are in relation is about where your grip should be.

Sensei
06-10-2005, 04:00 PM
Close grip doesn't have to be on or at the smooth part of the bar necessarily. If it puts a lot of stress on your wrists, for example, don't feel like moving your hands out would destroy the movement. Just make sure that your hands are reasonably close and you'll be putting more stress on your triceps which is the objective of doing the exercise.

Gutz981
06-10-2005, 06:03 PM
Yeah see I was wondering about that...but then are you saying that there is no accually regular grip benching when doing westside? I understand on Speed bench day there is a flat bench -Speed Bench - 8 sets of 3 reps at 60% of your one rep max...but other than that just doing the given excercise Im supposed to have good result on my max bench? I've heard alot of stoires raving aboout Westside style upping your maxes are these accurate?

Sensei
06-10-2005, 06:13 PM
You generally won't do regular bench pressing as your Maximum Effort exercise if that's what you mean... You will vary your grip on your dynamic effort work, so you will get some training w. a regular grip in.

Here's a tip w. Westside - it's ok not to follow everything to the letter. Don't get lazy and don't make things up, but it's ok to add/subtract/replace where you see fit. The main thing is to have a DE day and an ME day and hit those hard.

If you are relatively new to lifting and your SQ/BP/DL are not particularly strong to begin with, I would suggest you spend extra time with them to improve your technique and strength. Here's one of my favorite articles by Dave Tate (Bustin' Ass 101): http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do;jsessionid=4ED85B19CE9A221F948A3D0BBA6E5F3B.ba08?article=288ba2

Gutz981
06-10-2005, 07:33 PM
I wouldnt say my lifts are strong...but for my age I'd say I'm doing all right I just wanna increase those numbers man and I hear people having great results with the westside style so I thought I would give it a shot and thanks

Gutz981
06-10-2005, 07:47 PM
Alright I don't wish to sound demanding or like someone that dont know anything about lifting I hold myself to know a bit (but always looking to learn) but could someone point me in the direction of an already written westside rountine? Please I know that westside you can subsitute things for other things but I am confused I need like percentages like:

Speed bench:
8setsX3reps@ *blank* % of your max

so on and so forth thanks guys and sorry if this seems a bit noobish but I really am stressin here I've never used anything other than the routine I have made and its time for a change and I'd like to go WSB

Sensei
06-10-2005, 08:07 PM
http://elitefts.com/documents/9week-training-program.htm

I think I just said this in another thread, but you really don't NEED to do box squats, so don't stress out if you have to substitute exercises.

drew
06-10-2005, 11:59 PM
I use three grips on DE bench days and almost always close grip on ME days.

Gutz: Read everything that Dave Tate and Louie Simmons have written.

Hazerboy
06-11-2005, 12:32 AM
I have a question: Does averyone always work 60 percent of their max from week to week in westside? I mean lets say I only test my max every nine weeks (directly; Usually you are not doing a regular bench/squat on an ME days) and it jumps like 20 or 30 pounds or something crazy. Wouldn't it be kind of silly then work 60 percent of your old max from week to week?

I guess what I'm saying is, do you add weight on dynamic effort excercies or can you see results staying at the same weight, since you are working with your explosions?

debussy
06-11-2005, 01:54 AM
this is crazy guys. anyone notice that this kid is only 15 years old and his lifts are nowhere near intermediate yet. theres no reason for him to do speed bench/squat days. theres no reason for the conjugate method, because chances are his technique is pretty bad (relatively) and he needs a lot more practice with the actual lifts. im just saying this from experience... because im still pretty damn weak. i found that my best gains came from doing simple periodization.

gutz, no offense man... but i really dont think you should be worrying about grip spacing on close grip incline presses. that **** is way too fancy. just get your basics down and then move onto something more advanced.... itll be worth it.

ok im done with my rant. im just sick of seeing people seeing westside as the be all and end all of powerlifting. plenty of people have gotten strong on old school training. you dont need to be slapping on chains and bands when youre struggling to bench 135.

Sensei
06-11-2005, 02:52 AM
I agree and that's why I recommended Dave's Tate's "Bustin' Ass 101" article... Most kids his age would do just as well to stick w. basic exercises and work on rep and weight PRs and form technique. But, if he's hell-bent on doing WS right away then it's not the worst routine he could do. I just hope he'll take my and your advice to heart about working on technique...

Gutz981
06-11-2005, 07:06 AM
Alright if you guys are talking about form I have that down I know I'm 15 but don't put me in the catagory with other highschool kids that rack 240 and go down half way I know proper form on most things...if I don't I ask my mentor Bill (beast that runs the gym I go to) and he is always more than happy to help so my form is on the good side of things and I don't struggle with 135!

Gutz981
06-11-2005, 07:22 AM
Board Press: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max.
^^^ but what exactly does that mean? sorry I just don't get it

KevinStarke
06-11-2005, 09:00 AM
It says what it means. Do sets of 3 till you can do them no longer then keep doing sets of as much as you can do for 1

debussy
06-11-2005, 11:48 AM
gutz, i wasnt referring to you struggling with 135... just referring to beginners who want to do all this fancy stuff. when i said your form is bad... its relative to people who bench 400+. these people have the movement hardwired into their brains. their muscles know exactly and how hard to contract... that only comes from years and years of practice.

Sensei
06-11-2005, 12:00 PM
It says what it means. Do sets of 3 till you can do them no longer then keep doing sets of as much as you can do for 1

NO! Working up to a one rep maximum means working up to the most weight you can do for one rep - NOT doing heavy sets of three to failure and then taking a one rep max! The sets of three are a gauge.
You need to pace yourself on the warm-up sets so that you are still fresh for your maximum attempt. If you blow your wad getting there, you won't be able to give the 1 rep max a "maximum effort".

Gutz,
I know it's not what you want to hear, but Debussey is right. Did you read the "Bustin' Ass 101" article? If you haven't, READ IT.
Here's the link again: http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do;jsessionid=4ED85B19CE9A221F948A3D0BBA6E5F3B.ba08?article=288ba2
I'm not saying "Don't do Westside.". What I'm saying is that if you haven't been doing hard training in the powerlifts for a few years, you probably won't benefit as much. Also, you really need to do a lot of basic, heavy work in the powerlifts. Speed work won't hurt you, but I'm pretty sure it's not the key for you right now either.
My personal opinion is that WS is not a bad program for high school students, but they will gain on just about anything anyway. If you are in this for the long haul, focus on the big three and the rest will fall into place.

WBBIRL
06-11-2005, 01:16 PM
I dont know, Ive heard people say that with your pinky on the ring of the bar that would be considered a medium grip.... which is pretty wide for me. My normal benching grip is I put my hands one thumb lenght away from the smooth area on the bar. Close grip is with my hands on the smooth parts and wide for me is with my pinky on the ring.

KevinStarke
06-11-2005, 01:30 PM
I always bench with my ring finger on the ring, but im a fan of wider grip, thats just me. For close grip i do middle finger right where the smooth part starts, further in and its very hard on my wrists.

Hazerboy
06-12-2005, 12:42 AM
All right, you have my attention, now I would like to know your reasoning; why would you consider a basic routine centered around perodization better for begginers than westside? What is it that sets one better for beginners and one better for more advanced lifters?

Sensei
06-12-2005, 01:48 AM
All right, you have my attention, now I would like to know your reasoning; why would you consider a basic routine centered around perodization better for begginers than westside? What is it that sets one better for beginners and one better for more advanced lifters?

The main reason, IMHO, is that if you are doing a basic 5x5 program (or some other straight periodization program), you are spending more time with the basic lifts. With WS, you rotate exercises frequently and, unless you are doing some hybrid, rarely do straight squatting or deadlifting.

While it's true that the powerlifts are not as difficult to master as the olympic lifts, powerlifting maximal weights with perfect technique is not something just any lug can do.

Most beginners, and probably most "intermediates", would do better to dump all the chains, bands, boxes, boards, and good mornings and just concentrate on the basic, full-range movements with variations in rep ranges, tempo, and intensity.

For the record, I am a HUGE Westside fan. I think it is a great program and beginners can also benefit from it if they use it wisely w. modifications.

WBBIRL
06-12-2005, 07:34 AM
I would like to think that you dont need some cookie cutter "routine" to get big. I structured a workout and then fashioned it again around how my body was responding. I know my program works for me and I know that its quite unique. You dont need a new routine to get through a platue... or at least I dont.

KevinStarke
06-12-2005, 08:30 AM
I never really had a strict routine, i would just go an put 100% in to whatever lifting i was doing. Just kill yourself in the gym and youll get results, you get what you put in to it i say. Some people feel more comfortable with a routine though and like things in there life very structured and what have you, if thats you go for it.

PowerManDL
06-12-2005, 10:43 AM
The main things I'd change for a non-elite lifter would be to use more rep work in place of DE work and more overall time spent with all three lifts. WSB as stated tends to neglect a lot of that, esp. the pull.

Paul Stagg
06-13-2005, 06:44 AM
A couple of suggestions/comments if the OP wants to stick with something like westside training:
Close grip = closer than competition grip. My 'close grip' is index finger on smooth, for example.

Instead of the variations of lifts on ME day, do more regular old squatting and deadlifting. Don't be afraid to take some liberties with the templates - the whole idea is to figure out what you need to do to get stronger. For example, you might want to rotate your ME lifts like this:
Squat to 1RM
Deadlift to 1RM
good morning to 3 RM
Squat to 3RM
Deadlift off boxes to 1RM
and repeat. Or something. Also, don't be afraid to add in some additional sets of higher repetitions - and spend some time working up, don't just warm up and jump to trying a PR. Work up to about 85% using triples, then try for 3 lifts over 90%. There are any number of ways to do this.

I wouldn't mess with the DE stuff - I think that tends to be more important, as well as being important for perfecting form.

The biggest things with this type of training is knowing your body AND knowing how to find your weaknesses and bring them up. That would be the main argument against jumping right into this at an inexperienced level - but that also doesn't mean you toss the whole template away - you just change it a little to get more work in on the basics.

Gutz981
06-13-2005, 10:35 AM
I have read alot about this and decided as of the moment I am not going to do westside I beleive I was over training and that is why I was not seeing the gains I desired I have a new routine and Im back fresh and more confident than ever...Althought I wouldnt count WS out yet its in the near future thanks guys