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CBates
12-19-2001, 10:40 AM
This is probably just B.S., but a lot of people say that calories from fat are harder to burn off than calories from carbs or protein. I was just wondering how much truth is in this.

Tryska
12-19-2001, 10:47 AM
there's more of them to burn, but i'm gonna go with BS. if anything, at least for my constituion..it's a lot harder to burn off calories from carbs.

ElPietro
12-19-2001, 11:23 AM
Aren't carbs the preferred fuel for your body? Followed by fat then protein? I mean doesn't your body at high intensity consume carbs as a fuel source and fat is used when intensity is lower...or below 70%? Leaving protein as what it uses when the other two are too low or exhausted...

Just not sure how you came to yer conclusion tryska...

Tryska
12-19-2001, 11:31 AM
well...yeah and no.

carbs, if they are in your diet, do become the preferred source of energy, because they are there. if they weren't, it would be fat, which is why fat is so calorically dense.

problem with consuming carbs steadily and then expecting carbs to be burned is this.....

carbohydrates enter your body-->they get converted to glucose-->this glucose enters your bloodstream-->insulin is released to take this sugar out of your blood and store it away, first to glycogen stores, second as fat.

now this is all well and good, if your glycogen depleted, or you don't eat excess carbs, but here's the deal....as i said insulin is a "storage" hormone. Cell walls are bidirectional, meaning stuff goes in and out of them. When insulin receptors are triggered, so that sugar gets stored in fat cells, movement in the opposite direction (allowing fat to leave the cell) is shut off.

Glucagon, the opposing hormone to insulin, is what allows fat to leave a cell, or glycogen for that matter.

now..say your eating a diet high in carbs.....and you eat these carbs through your day....and you eat every 2-3 hours. Considering it takes 2-3 hours for this process of ingesting, digesting, converting to glucose, storing said glucose to occur, when does your body actually have time to release fat from fat cells to be used as energy?

ericg
12-19-2001, 12:07 PM
Awesome post for the simple minded!!! Thanks!!:D

Wizard
12-19-2001, 12:07 PM
Carbs are burnt 10-12 times easier than fats.

ElPietro
12-19-2001, 12:16 PM
Tryska...then truly nobody is really burning carbs by your definition...merely they are burning glucose which was converted from carbs....what isn't burned is converted to fat...this is what I believe you are saying...if not please correct me...

If the case above is a correct assessment then you will always be burning glycose first and then fat...glycose comes from carbs as does fat potentially so I'm not sure if your first statement about having trouble burning carbs makes sense...according to your definition...again please clarify if I'm misinterpreting...I always thought I had somewhat of a grasp on this process just don't have as much of the terminology in my vocab...

Tryska
12-19-2001, 12:24 PM
well...if your eating carbs, muscle glycogen (from glucose) gets burned first.

well actually let me back track. I'm looking at this question on a grand scheme, not just which burns faster. Because if that's the case, what blackie said is right, sugar burns much faster then fat.

however, big picture, if your goal is to burn fat, then eating sugar, which will get burned preferentially, won't help you burn fat.

and true...nobody burns carbs. they burn sugar in the form of glycogen. (carbs, simple or complex, get broken down to simple sugars to be assimilated by the body)

did that make it easier?

Wizard
12-19-2001, 12:34 PM
Certainly.You're smart.. ;)

ElPietro
12-19-2001, 12:39 PM
Yeah I guess I was just misunderstanding you...but you're spelling is off...it's constitution...so there! :D

body
12-19-2001, 03:35 PM
carbs are not efficently converted into fat. it take a far bit of energy to be converted, while fat is far more efficently converted into your adipose tissue. the thermic effect of food is important consideration.
you are store carb as adipose tissue if over eating. the body will do the same with fat and protien.

your body more effeciently absorbs fat as well by a couple of %. so if you eat

tryksa wrote "however, big picture, if your goal is to burn fat, then eating sugar, which will get burned preferentially, won't help you burn fat."
if you eat fat, your body may burn fat. but it will not be burning up the adipose tissue which is what you want.

tryksa wrote "now..say your eating a diet high in carbs.....and you eat these carbs through your day....and you eat every 2-3 hours. Considering it takes 2-3 hours for this process of ingesting, digesting, converting to glucose, storing said glucose to occur, when does your body actually have time to release fat from fat cells to be used as energy?"
if you eat lots of small fat meals all day, then when does you body have time to use your adipose tissue as a fuel reserve. If you do not eat enough then glycogen will neve be fully replenished therefore you will start to use up your adipose tissue as fuel.

Tryska
12-19-2001, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by body
if you eat lots of small fat meals all day, then when does you body have time to use your adipose tissue as a fuel reserve. If you do not eat enough then glycogen will neve be fully replenished therefore you will start to use up your adipose tissue as fuel.

which is my key point.


if you are eating carbs....and in excess of what your glycogen stores need, you will store it as adipose tissue, efficient or not.

Maki Riddington
12-19-2001, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Tryska

now..say your eating a diet high in carbs.....and you eat these carbs through your day....and you eat every 2-3 hours. Considering it takes 2-3 hours for this process of ingesting, digesting, converting to glucose, storing said glucose to occur, when does your body actually have time to release fat from fat cells to be used as energy?

*** "Fats burn in the flames of carbohydrates" If the carbohydrate intake exceeds the liver and muscle storage capacity then you will see a spill over and a result in fat storage beggining. A lot of these debates are only looking at one area of a very complex process. Yes, glucagon is good for fat release and insulin can be detrimental but it is only a small piece of the larger puzzle.

Tryska
12-19-2001, 05:54 PM
oh i agree that you require a certain amount of carbs to set off the whole process.....however, your effects will be hindered if you are eating a diet consisting primarily of carbs, spread through your day.....

Wizard
12-20-2001, 03:42 AM
Not always.If you're active you'll burn much more bodyfat if your diet consists primally of carbs.

Tryska
12-20-2001, 04:16 AM
how do you figure that blackie?

the doc
12-20-2001, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Wizard
Not always.If you're active you'll burn much more bodyfat if your diet consists primally of carbs.

:confused:

ok I know you need carbs to replenish intermediates in the citric acid cycle ( which metabolized the acetyl CoA formed from fatty acid b-oxidation) but how can you burn fat when constantly under the effects of insulin?

Wizard
12-20-2001, 07:26 AM
OK,to be more specific,that's when you primally consume low-gi carbs (no sugars).We know that 'slin stops fat burning because it inhibits GH and glucagon release.

Fat helps the body use carbohydrates and proteins more efficiently,so fat is indeed necessary,just not in big quantities.

On the other hand,muscles work more efficiently when they're full of glycogen.Carbohydrates fuel your muscles and brain.

Body fat and not dietary fat,is the primary energy source when you are inactive,and do other light activities such as sitting,reading,lying down,or sleeping.
During this time only small amounts of carbohydrates are used for energy.As soon as you exert energy,your muscles start to use up the stored carbohydrate to power your moving limbs.The harder or more intensely you exercise the more carbohydrates and less body fat you use for energy(again,it's bodyfat and not dietary fat)
Your body fat deposits store energy for use during inactive periods.
Here,the majority of the members is consisted of active people.

Then,carbohydrates break down into glucose more efficiently,which your body then readily converts to energy.If the energy is not used,it is converted to glycogen and stored in your liver and muscles.Only if your glycogen stores are full is it then converted to body fat.

I like the word "balance" and that's the key to succeed.I'm opposite to all the extremists and preachers of very high carb or very high fat diets.

To make it more clear,when you eat a meal, carbohydrates are converted to energy first.Carbohydrates break down into glucose quickly and easily.Of course,as Tryska said,that's not so good for a person who's on a diet and need to satisfy his/her hunger.In fact, simple carbohydrates (like sugar) are converted to glucose almost immediately after they are eaten.
However by comparison,your body only uses a small amount of dietary fat for energy.The rest is converted and stored as fatty tissues.It doesn't mean that must stop consuming some EFA's.You certainly need them but it's not a panacea.(there's always a limit.)

*Fat is high calorie,but not efficient energy.The process to convert food fat directly to body fat is more efficient than converting to energy.All other factors being equal,eating fatty foods can make you gain weight (as body fat) quicker than carbohydrates or proteins.*1
Food fat is not bad and neither is body fat.Your body does need to have fat to function properly.

Low gi carbs-not many sugars-adequate amount of protein(depending on your lifestyle)-adequate amount of Efa's-enough fibre..Good timing,
Balance... :D

1 Sports Fitness and Training
Richard Mangi,MD
Peter Jokl,MD
William O. Dayton,ATC
Random House,New York
ISBN:0-394-54972-4

body
12-20-2001, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Tryska


which is my key point.


if you are eating carbs....and in excess of what your glycogen stores need, you will store it as adipose tissue, efficient or not.

my point is that kcal for kcal ate, your body will increase its level of adipose tissue more from fat than carbs. due to fat being more efficently converted into adipose tissue than carbs.

if you under eat you loose weight, if you over eat you gain weight. but the level of gain and loss is dependant on the macronutrient source.

Wizard
12-20-2001, 02:09 PM
You're totally right.

Thanks for the backup. ;)

Tryska
12-20-2001, 02:17 PM
so then, explain this to me?

using myself as a guinea pig, taking into consideration i have a subclinical metabolic condition, which makes it extremely difficult to lose weight period.

how come kilocal for kilocal, at below maintenance level calories, if on a high protein/med fat/low carb diet, i will lose a pound, to a pound and half a week.

but, using that same caloric deficit, eating high carb/high protein/low fat, i will either a. gain water weight, to the tune of 3-4 lbs, in that same week, or at best, not lose any weight at all?

if your train of thought follows through correctly, kilocal for kilocal, specifically because it is so difficult for me to lose weight, eating a high carb diet should be the easiest way for me to lose at a steady pace, then a medium fat diet, as fat is so much more easily converted to adipose tissue, and it truly is eat less, lose wieght?

Paul Stagg
12-20-2001, 02:31 PM
T -

You gotta measure body composition, not just weight.

Lets say your caloric requirements are 2000 cals a day.

You eat your 2000 cals, and hare holding steady.

You then decide you want a snack.

You want to choose between pork rinds and whole wheat bread.

if you eat 100 cals of pork rinds, more of that will be stored as bodyfat than the 100 cals of bread.

Of course, this is overly simplified. In a caloric defecit, it really doesn't matter, as you are not storing anything. The only difference is the efficiency of fuel utilization, which is going to vary due to a number of things.

Wizard
12-20-2001, 02:34 PM
That's why I said the word balance twice in my previous post.

Btw,you wrote
"i have a subclinical metabolic condition, which makes it extremely difficult to lose weight period. "
while the average healthy individual doesn't face such a problem.

Anyway,you said that "on a high protein/med fat/low carb diet, i will lose a pound, to a pound and half a week."
You didn't said the word "bodyfat".I don't care about the water weight increase.Your glycogen stores will obviously cary more water while being on the second diet.
And finally,our problem here is the comparison of fat
to carbs as an energy source... and hell,I have written a ton of things about it.

Btw,I'm too bad tonight.. (I broke up with my gf.. :cry: )

Anyway.. Feel free to argue about anything :cool:

Wizard
12-20-2001, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Paul Stagg
Of course, this is overly simplified. In a caloric defecit, it really doesn't matter, as you are not storing anything. The only difference is the efficiency of fuel utilization, which is going to vary due to a number of things.

Great. :nod:

The_Chicken_Daddy
12-20-2001, 03:57 PM
I've always been under the impression that carbs can help raise metabolism [and in turn help burn fat].

this is why my cheat days always consist of like 75%+ carbs [and *cough cough* grams of fat *cough*...

Tryska
12-20-2001, 04:52 PM
actually body composition changes. y'all fools don't think i actually use the scale and not the calipers to arrive at my figures do you?

and blackie, i used myself as an example, because worst case scenario if something works, then it will work in a best case scenario as well. ;)

the doc
12-20-2001, 06:27 PM
Wizard, i have read through that lengthy post of yours several times and at first i was thinking out loud "bullsh#t"
Now after rubbing my chin for a half an hour i fully agree with you.

Balance is certainly the key. The high fat/no carb approach results in down regultation of metabolism, especially through the loss of citric acid intermediates- indeed dont many adkins diets report plateaus after some time- perhaps due to this down regulation. Indeed fat, both dietary and body fat will be metabolized (although it would be interesting to trace if dietary fat is first coverted to bodyfat before it is metabolized), in an overall sense, and carbohydrates are needed to assist in its metabolism (especially through replenishment of the biosynthetic pathways). Your glycogen doesn't have to be maxed out though all the time... Personally i haven't noticed much difference in workout performance being partially depleted vs full (and bloated)
But carbohydrates certainly shouldn't be in excess either. I speak from my own experience when i switched from high carb eating to more of an isocaloric type (well NHE anyway). High carbs left me so damn bloated all the time. Blah. I was always hungry also. Also, there is the diabetis concerns. When i was at gnc a while back they has this weight gainer 2200. 1 serving was 400 g carbs (maltodextrin and dextrose) and 40 g protein and 2 g fat. They ought to rename that "destroy my pancreas-2200"

Anyhow a little protein with a few low GI carbs with some fat in there and presto-tastey, filling meal... no insulin spike,-satiety, some glycogen replensihment, little fat storage

also within the context of this discussion does every one still agree not to mix carbs with excessive fat (ie french fries...lol)?

unev_en
12-20-2001, 06:33 PM
This has been an extremely interesting thread...

I am now confused, however. Currently, I'm trying to slowly bulk, which means that I would like to gain muscle while minimizing fat gain (I know this is difficult, and I am willing to accept an increase in bf, but still...) My question is this: Of the following two pre-bed meals, assuming they were above my daily caloric needs, would minimize fat gain:

1) low-gi carbs (1/2 cup oatmeal) and protein
2) protein and fat (two omega-3 eggs, four egg whites)

I have been operating under the assumption that fat consumed in the absence of insulin is difficult to store as adipose tissue. Is this incorrect?

Please, I would appreciate any input.

the doc
12-20-2001, 06:38 PM
well i would go for # 2
a couple of reasons
1) during sleep your not needing any carbs except to power your brain (and that only requires ~60/ day)
2) fat slows the digestion of macros and will digest more slowsy over the night
3) There is a growth hormone spike that occurs in the early stages of sleep and insulin suppresses this (although hGH is not a muscle builder primarily, it does promote fat burning and general tissue repair)


hmm hard boiled eggs before bed!

Tryska
12-20-2001, 06:42 PM
you summed it up pretty well doc.

i was of the understanding though...that consumption of dietary fat, allowed for umm..the word is escaping right now....the enzymes (?) necessary to break down fat, to be freely flowing to breakdown adipose fat as well. makig the whole thing easier.


i should also qualify, that my stance on carbs is against cabrs that convert to glucose. ie grains, starches and sugars.

i freely use dairy, fruits and fibrous veggies. because as was mentioned earlier, carbs give the spark.


ps - i hate that bloated feeling too. :(

the doc
12-20-2001, 06:56 PM
facilitate?

well as i understand, the rate of machinery that metabolizes fat (in the mitochondria ) are dependant on the availibilty of substrate (fatty acid). Now there are only two ways that fat will be availible to metabolize, via consumption (dietary) and that liberated from the glucagon stimulation (body).
Continual insulin stimulation wil of couse inhibit fat metabolism...

Another interesting fact about carbs is that they are poisonous! Thank god for insulin!
Yes if we didn't have insulin our blood sugars would rise to such hights that we would die!

Tryska
12-20-2001, 07:12 PM
*lol*

well carbs are definitely not my friend. i've actually found aside from the bloating, that i will break out if i eat the wrong kind. plus i get hyper, and forgetfull. it's interestign the stuff you notice, after you cut something out and then add it back again on occassion.

and yeah..facilitate is the perfect word. :)

Wizard
12-21-2001, 12:29 AM
Doc,I do agree that mixing carbs with fat is a fat storage killa but only if you mix high carbs with high fat and especially,many high gi carbs(mostly sugars) with many saturated fats.

This combination is our enemy... but
But there's always our friend protein there which aids in the release of glucagon and help us create the balance we need.

Also,throwing in some fiber will lower the gi big time!I mean that you can still enjoy a meal that consists of high gi carbs and fat if you have some fibre at the same time.(like psyllium husk or some veggies etc)


Chigs wrote:I've always been under the impression that carbs can help raise metabolism [and in turn help burn fat].
this is why my cheat days always consist of like 75%+ carbs

That's right.You manipulate the hormone leptin.Your aim when a cheat day comes should be the consuption of up to 70-75% of carbs and consume about 500 calories over maintainance.(ok,I know you can eat up to 10,000 calories.. :D )

You can also raise your metabolism by having 1-2 pieces of high fructose fruits(cherries,apples,peaches,stawberries etc) every day because fructose aids in the conversion of T4 to T3 but notice that even while the thyroid may be producing adequate amounts of T4,in the absence of adequate selenium,the conversion to active T3 may not take place effectively.Plant foods are the major dietary sources of selenium.It can also be found in some meats and seafood.


unev_en: Ditto what the doc said and definitaly go for #2 for the reasons he stated above.


Tryska wrote:
i was of the understanding though...that consumption of dietary fat, allowed for umm..the word is escaping right now....the enzymes (?) necessary to break down fat, to be freely flowing to breakdown adipose fat as well. makig the whole thing easier.

In addition to what doc said,dietary fat indeed aids to the fat break down in many ways.Remember that lecithin,which is found in some fat sources like egg yolks contains choline and inositol which are essential for the breakdown of fats and cholesterol.

Finally yes,not all types of carbs are equal for every digestive tract and can cause bloating and other problems..
That's it.Now,kill 'slin

slin--> :bash: <-- tryska

:D

Tryska
12-21-2001, 04:17 AM
hee hee. insulin sucks.

btw...sorry abut your breakup bud. :(

Wizard
12-21-2001, 04:44 AM
Thanks,I appreciate it..

I hope I will survive :cry: :( :D

Tryska
12-21-2001, 04:47 AM
*lol* you'll get over it...all in due time.

Reinier
12-21-2001, 05:42 AM
wows u people are smart.

the doc
12-21-2001, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by Tryska
*lol* you'll get over it...all in due time.

:nod: