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ryuage
08-25-2005, 11:32 AM
After a long hard cut its time to put that strength back on and then some, Ill be placing most of my emphasis on strength with hypertrophy coming in a close second... uh duh ? ok so just wanted to get the opinions on my template I plan on starting this weekend.. also I throw in a little cardio after each training session about 15-20 minutes nothing to strenuous. Off days maybe a little longer jogging sessions or cardio equipment rotated with intervals on some days usually about 10 100m sprints, will try and incorporate different sled dragging techniques soon... I know cardio is kind of counterproductive but I will compensate with enough food and will limit it if I feel that it is halting my progress...

Day 1 Max effort upper body

Close Grip Bench Press: (using the maximal effort method): Start with a light weight and work up in weight using sets of three reps. When three reps become difficult drop the reps to one and keep increasing the weight until a one rep max is reached.

Barbell Triceps Extensions: 6 sets of 5 to 8 reps

One Arm Dumbbell Presses: 4 sets of 10 reps

Barbell Rows: 4 sets of 6 reps

Day 2 Max effort Lower body

Good mornings/ or possibly front squats (using the maximal effort method): Start with a light weight and work up in weight using sets of three reps. When three reps becomes difficult drop the reps to one and keep increasing the weight until a one rep max is reached.

Close stance low box squats: 4 to 5 sets of 5 reps

Pull throughs: 4 to 5 sets of 8 reps

Hanging Leg Raises: 6 sets of 6 to 8 reps

Day 3 Dynamic effort upper body

Bench Press: (using the dynamic effort method): warm up to a weight that is 60 to 70 percent of your current one rep max. Perform 8 sets of 3 reps in an explosive fashion using three different grips. Rest only 1 minute between sets)

Dumbbell Triceps Extensions: 6 to 8 sets of 10 reps

Pushdowns: 3 sets of 10 reps

Rear Deltoid Dumbbell Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps

Dumbbell Rows: 5 sets of 8 reps

Day 4 Dyanmic effort lower body

Box Squats: (using the dynamic effort method): warm up to a weight that is 60 to 70 percent of your current one rep max. Perform 8 sets of 2 reps in an explosive fashion. Rest only 1 minute between sets)

Lunges: 5 sets of 5 reps each leg

Pull throughs: 5 sets of 5 to 8 reps

Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 6 to 8 reps

thoughts.... changes?

WBBIRL
08-25-2005, 02:24 PM
I really dont see any back work in there, I would suggest deadlifting and or SLDLing. I would also can the cardio, up your protein intake to about 2g per lb of bodyweight and increase cals to about 120-125% of your maintance calories.

Sensei
08-25-2005, 02:34 PM
I think what you have looks fine. You may find that you need to cut some of the volume (I would...).


I really dont see any back work in there, I would suggest deadlifting and or SLDLing.

He's doing rows and good mornings. Where are you looking?

debussy
08-25-2005, 07:10 PM
Yeah looks pretty solid. Volume might be too high... but thats individual. The ME exercise usually takes a lot out of you, I'm only able to do 2 assistance exercises afterwards. Back work looks ok. Are you going to be rotating ME exercises? Either you didn't mention that or maybe I don't know how to read.

Oh yeah... I would do deadlifts once in a while just for practice (nothing too heavy).

Paul Stagg
08-25-2005, 07:15 PM
Do you know your weak points?

ryuage
08-25-2005, 09:51 PM
Yeah looks pretty solid. Volume might be too high... but thats individual. The ME exercise usually takes a lot out of you, I'm only able to do 2 assistance exercises afterwards. Back work looks ok. Are you going to be rotating ME exercises? Either you didn't mention that or maybe I don't know how to read.

Oh yeah... I would do deadlifts once in a while just for practice (nothing too heavy).

rotating me every 3-4 weeks ya thinking about lowering volume a bit...

ryuage
08-25-2005, 09:52 PM
Do you know your weak points?

weak points = hammies and triceps... well biceps to

PowerManDL
08-26-2005, 02:28 AM
Are you peaking for a meet? Otherwise I'm not so sure I'd be working with triples and singles for maxes. 4-6 might be a better working rep range for long-term strength development.

Paul Stagg
08-26-2005, 07:25 AM
Well - I can share what I've learned trainig this way. You have to take it with a bit of a grain of salt, since I've not been as consistant as I should have been over the last few years, but I think I've figured a couple of things out.

Don't get too hung up on the ME day being to a 1RM. As PMDL says, it might be a good idea to do 4-6RMs (or not even RMs). Personally, I like going over 90%, so I don't do much in that range, but I do think it might be right for you. Play around with it.

Deadlift. Trust me. Not deadlifting to improve my deadlift had the opposite effect. At a minimum, do cycles of speed/form work on your DE squat days, and I would do at least 25% of my ME work on deads.

Volume looks OK. You'll need to play around with what works for you, but I've found more volume = good. When I'm in condition to get more volume in, I tend to be making better progress on my main lifts. I'm sure there is a point of diminishing returns.

I would not do low box squats as supplemental or assistance work. If you want to do squats in that spot, ditch the box. I also think you'll have a tough time doing a 1RM on a front squat, then trying to squat for several sets of 5 - you may want to rethink that. Your supplemental and assistance stuff should be to bring up what's weak. if that's your hamstrings or PC, then do SLDL, RDL, good mornings, etc.

Listen to your body. If you feel beat down, don't want to train, etc. on an ME day - go to the gym, but don't do the primary lift. Do some light assistance/supplemental stuff, maybe something new, make it fun - but back it down a notch. Not doing that ended up with me taking long periods of time off because I get burned out from training.

Have fun and experiment. That's a big key, along with working hard.

ryuage
08-26-2005, 05:52 PM
so instead of working up in tripples and singles you guys would reccomend working with reps of 4-6? so do you recommend just working with a percentage of my max and hitting x amount of sets lets just say maybe 3 sets of 4-6 until I hit the top end of the rep range with all 3 sets of 6 then increase in weight.... and would you still recommend rotating the max effort lifts every so often?

Paul Stagg
08-26-2005, 08:33 PM
Play around with it. Maybe work up to a set of 5 week one, 3 week 2, then a single week 3, then change the lift and do it again. Or do sets of 4-6 for 3 weeks, then change the lift and do triples for three weeks. Or you could work up to a max single, then do a couple of down sets at a lower percentage. You'll learn what works best for you.

If you are working up close to a 1 or 3RM then yes, rotate the lifts at least every 3 weeks. Higher reps you can probably keep the same lift for longer, but you might want to change it anyway.

Manveet
08-26-2005, 09:44 PM
Just to add in my .02$

A very good link on 5X5
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215

Here's the program (more info on it can be obtained through the link)

CORE DESCRIPTION

Volume Phase 4 weeks
Deloading Period 1 week
Intensity Phase 4 weeks

Mon......Volume Phase...........................................De load/Intensity Phase
Squat.......5x5................................... ..............................3x3
Bench.......1x5................................... ..............................1x3
Row.........1x5................................... ...............................1x3

Wed......Volume Phase...........................................De load/Intensity Phase
Squat.......5x5 with 15-20% less than Monday.................drop this lift
Deadlift.....5x5.................................. ...............................3x3
Military......5x5................................. ................................3x3
Pullups.......5x5................................. ...............................3x3

Fri.........Volume Phase...........................................De load/Intensity Phase
Squat........1x5.................................. ..............................1x3
Bench........5x5.................................. .............................3x3
Row...........5x5................................. ..............................3x3

*5x5 & 3x3 = warm up to working set weight
**1x5 & 1x3 = pyramid weights through 5x5 or 3x3 with the final set being target set weight


I even have a copy of the original program outlined by Bill Starr. It's so ridiculously simple it's not even funny.

Isaac Wilkins
08-27-2005, 07:02 AM
I even have a copy of the original program outlined by Bill Starr. It's so ridiculously simple it's not even funny.


Usually that's the case when it comes to old school power training.

Too many people jump into Westside/conjugate stuff before they're ready. They're simply not strong enough to utilize the speed stuff, which I've discovered myself in regards to squatting, and I'm nearing a 500 raw squat.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with you, Stephen, you're a fairly experienced lifter. I would spend at least 12 or 24 weeks doing a 5x5 or something similar, though. Get used to heavy weights regularly. Start working on speed in that you focus on fast concentric phases of lifts. Determine whether or not speed is a weakness.

I had a client who was a fairly experienced lifter, and naturally very fast, although not particularly strong. After a while it became clear that he wasn't going to get much faster. When we switched over to doing a rep day instead of a dynamic effort day three weeks out of four he started gaining better.

ryuage
08-28-2005, 10:16 AM
thanks for the advice, taking all things into consideration I'm expirimenting and wil see what works for me, instead of working up to 3rm 1rm I figure id make the core max exercises some variation and just fo 5x5 for example bench 5x5, low box squat 5x5, etc.... took the intensity down and will load back up, then using supplemental exercises to bring up the weak points so will hit the tricep extensions and cgbp hard and will work on the posterior chain with some gm's (still working on getting the weights with this) and pull throughs. As far as speed goes I think that is something I lack so I will do some speed work on the lighter/dynamic days with box squats and benching, and up the reps on the supplemental/accessory work.

GoHeavyLifter
08-29-2005, 04:49 AM
weak points = hammies and triceps... well biceps to

one advice:

in PL'ing never think in terms of musclegroups. you always have to think in lifts. so weak points can be technique/ sticking points/ grip problems/ lack of core-strength...
for a beginner in PL'ing that's the biggest problem, to detect your weak points and correctly work on them.


hope it helps, GHL

AKraut
08-29-2005, 09:17 AM
I definitely suggest adding in a glute ham raise. My deadlift went right up as I got stronger doing GHRs as my hamstrings were not nearly as strong as I thought they were.

I would also look to do some shrugs or some type of grip work since you aren't deadlifting, I know when I did Westside for 8-weeks and didn't deadlift my grip wasn't where I wanted it.

ryuage
08-29-2005, 10:56 AM
my grip isnt really a problem although I will be incorporating deads and rack deads also I am looking for a viable way to do ghr's in my gym using some type of ghetto setup as I dont have access to the actual machine.. for now Im using cable pull throughs

PowerManDL
08-29-2005, 09:44 PM
I'm doing something based on the Starr/Pendlay/MadCow 5x5 myself, pretty much after coming to the same conclusions as Borris...I was benefitting more from basic progressive-overload rep work than I was from either speed-type work or typical ME work.

Not to say that those methods weren't working, but the gains at this point are noticable more pronounced.

ryuage
08-29-2005, 10:42 PM
when you guys say rep work are you referring to repetition method rather then speed/dynamic type work?

Isaac Wilkins
08-30-2005, 06:15 AM
Not quite. I was referring to more of a Westside repetition method, as it is thought of, PowerMajt was referring to a different style of lifting (non-Westside), although they're not all that different. The repetition could also be thought of as using quite light weight and just totally repping out, trying for 10-15 reps.

Here's what I've been doing on my bench: I do my normal ME work to a heavy single or triple. Then on my DE it looks like this (all with a flat BB Bench Press):

Week 1: 225x10, 225x10, 225x10
Week 2: 225x11, 225x11, 225x11
Week 3: 225x12, 225x12, 225x12
Week 4: Traditional DE Benching: 8x3 @ 50-60% (whatever I feel like, with bands/chains if I feel like it)
Week 5: 235x10, 235x10, 235x10
Week 6: 235x11, 235x11, 235x11
And so on...

PowerMajt is looking at something more like this (assuming he hits a lift once per week, some of these protocols are a little more complicated):

Week 1: 225x5, 225x5, 225x5, 225x5, 225x5
Week 2: 230x5, 230x5, 230x5, 230x5, 230x5
Week 3: 235x5, 235x5, 235x5, 235x5, 235x5
And so on...

-Eventually he'd do some other things, but that's the thrust.

I've had a lot of success using entirely that type of program (PowerMajt's) and I'm having success with what I'm doing now. I've also used a 3x5 or 5x5 as one of my accessory exercises. For example, today I'll be doing something like this for my DE Squat Day:

Parallel Box Squats (DE): 8x2 @ 50% <- I haven't done DE Squats in a few months, so this will be an adventure.

Low Box Squats: 275x3 (warm-up), 315x5, 315x5, 315x5 (this will be fairly heavy after so much squatting and given that it's low)

Other accessory work...

Anthony
08-30-2005, 07:52 AM
I'm doing something based on the Starr/Pendlay/MadCow 5x5 myself, pretty much after coming to the same conclusions as Borris...I was benefitting more from basic progressive-overload rep work than I was from either speed-type work or typical ME work.

Not to say that those methods weren't working, but the gains at this point are noticable more pronounced.


Matt, what's your outline look like? I'm going to give 5x5 a try and looking to find some variations.

PowerManDL
08-31-2005, 10:28 PM
It's based on a mod of the typical 5x5 program that I saw from Glenn Pendlay, though I further jury-rigged it for my specific goals.

Manveet posted the workout above, which is how I'd recommend starting it out, but here's how I'm working it:

Monday -

Squats 5x5, flat weight (as Borris noted above)
Row to a 5RM
Press to a 5RM

Wednesday -

DL, periodized (I've got a 6 week cycle including speed work that I'm using)
OH Press, 5x5, flat weight
Pullups, 5x5, flat weight

Friday -

Squats to a 5RM
Row, 5x5, flat weight
Press, 5x5, flat weight

Additionally, I throw in work for arms, shoulders, calves, some cleans and shrugs, and a little cardio either on off days or as extra workouts as time permits.

As noted in the above post, this will eventually move to a 3x3 phase. I don't have any idea when, as that's going to depend entirely on when the progress stops on this phase. I'm also being very liberal with skipping the squat work when the deadlift cycle hits the higher weights and volumes.

It's a little tricky to manage as the deadlift work moves on its own cycle, but so far things are working out nicely.

Manveet
09-01-2005, 10:31 AM
Some good information in this thread, I thought I'd add some more.

Here's Bill Starr's original routine:

Monday (Heavy Day)

Power Clean: 5x5 (work up to 5RM)

Bench: 5X5 (work up to 5RM)

Squat: 5x5 (work up to 5RM)


Wednesday (Light Day 80%)

Power Clean: 5X5 (work up to 80% 5RM)

Squat: 5X5 ""

Bench: 5X5 ""


Friday (Medium Day 90%)

Power Clean: 5X5 (work up to 90%5RM)

Squat: 5X5 ""

Bench: 5X5""


That's pretty much it right there. If anyone cares I can probably even post his advanced routine.

squat it all!
09-01-2005, 10:38 AM
[QUOTE=AKraut]I definitely suggest adding in a glute ham raise. My deadlift went right up as I got stronger doing GHRs as my hamstrings were not nearly as strong as I thought they were.

i'd love to do GHRs too, but my gym doesn't have the apparatus. i know back extensions are similar, but do they add to your squat/dead as much?

Anthony
09-01-2005, 10:57 AM
If anyone cares I can probably even post his advanced routine.

Please do.

Manveet
09-01-2005, 12:08 PM
Advanced Bench Routines


A slight modification in the sets and reps is also in order for the advanced trainee. The modification is slight and enables the trainee to handle heavier weights on the final sets. Instead of performing 5x5, the advanced trainee will do seven sets of the following repetitions; 5,5,5,3,3,3,6-10. The first three sets serve as warm-up sets and by dropping two reps on the next three sets allows the trainee to use more weight in the lift. The final back-off set insures the trainee of sufficient work as he will be doing a minimum of 25 reps per exercise. Any less is not going to be enough total work, regardless of the top weight handled. The 6-10 rep range is allowed because it is not always easy to pick a back-off set exactly on the money on any given day so it's sort of a ballpark figure

Futhermore, Bill even suggests using slightly different exercises.

So for instance, on Monday you can do a regular bench, Wednesday an incline bench, and Friday a Standing Military Press.

Bench Pressing ALA Doug Hepburn


This routine is for the person who wants to improve his bench press, is willing to put in lots of work, and who has plenty of time to train. It is very a prohibitive program for a large group and equally unwise for anyone to attempt who is not ready to spend a solid hour just doing bench presses.

Begin with 3-5 sets of warm-ups, working up to a fairly heavy weight. Now select a poundage that you can comfortably do five singles with and still have a bit of reserve left. This isn't always as easy as it sounds. If you can single, say 325, you should use around 290-300 initially for this program. Do five singles with the selected poundage and then drop back to weight with which you can do five sets of five repetitions.

Sounds quite easy on paper, but most start to run out of gas on their third or fourth back-up set. Most choose too much weight for this back-off poundage. It's usually about 50 pounds less than the top single you worked across. If you are in doubt your first couple of workouts, take the lower poundage. Then if you find that you can handle the five singles and the five sets of five comfortably, add 5 pounds next time around. Just take five-pound jumps as the tonnage really adds up quickly when you are doing ten sets plus five sets of warmups.

A sample program for someone doing 300X5 or 340X1 would look about like this:
Bench Press: 135X5, 175X5, 205X5, 245X3, 275X3, 315X1 (5 sets), 265 (5X5)

..It is quite demanding and should initially be performed once a week. The time factor drags out on most routines because you are doing so many heavy singles and then heavy fives. These cannot be hurried too much as you will not be able to handle enough weight to make the program effective. The other two work-out days should find you doing: behind-the -neck presses, military presses, incline presses, or even light bench presses. It is very easy to overtrain the bench press while doing the Hepburn routine so be very aware of your shoulder girdle during this time. If it gets in a state of fatigue, back off on some of the other pressing movements.

I'll make another couple posts on an advanced power clean program, and an advanced squat program.

PowerManDL
09-01-2005, 08:34 PM
Based on my performance tonight, and looking back over the past two weeks of training logs, I'm thinking it's gonna run like this cycle-wise for me:

Base weeks - Mon - squats 5x5, Weds - DL %s + speed, Fri - squats heavy 5
Loading week - same as above, but heaviest squat and DL weight, no speed work
Taper week 1 - drop heavy squat work, low volume DL sets
Taper week 2-3/4 - drop 5x5 squats, heavier DL sets

This is mainly because 465x2 felt heavy last week on the DL...but after dropping the squats (due to the hurricane, not intentional), I came to the gym tonight and ripped 500x5 which was hard, but not nearly what I'd been anticipating.

Manveet
09-02-2005, 11:08 AM
As promised here's Starr's advanced squat program (again, it's very basic but it works)


Here's how you go about setting up the program. Do the five sets of tens on Monday, counting the warm-ups, as usual. Stagger the sets so that your final set will be the most you can do for ten repetitions. For the first few weeks some trainees find that they can do the highest set of tens on the fourth, rather than fifth set. This is permissible, just so long as you back off and do a final set of ten with a moderate heavy weight. It's rather like skipping the fourth set and then backing off to it, but make sure you get the work in. Until you get used to doing ten reps you may under-shoot or over-shoot the proper poundage rather easily, but after a couple of workouts you should be right on target.

The Wednesday workout will find you doing five sets of three reps, again working to a maximum. The threes take a slightly different toll on the muscles, tendons, and ligaments. This basically, is the purpose of doing threes. The heavier poundage allows you to overload the legs and hips to a much greater degree than the lighter poundages for higher reps. Not as much total work is performed on the three days, but the deep muscles and important attachments are thoroughly stimulated and strengthened.

Firday is the day for the familiar five sets of five. This is the least taxing, speaking from both a mental and physical standpoint. The tens are the buggers physically and the threes zap your mind, but the fives are cool. They seem to keep a healthy balance to the overall program and fully complement the high rep and low rep days. You will be going all-out on this day too for your best five repitions.

Your squat program may look like this:
Monday: 135X10, 155X10, 175X10, 205X10, 225X10
total 8950 pounds
Wednesday: 135X3, 185X3, 245X3, 275X3, 305X3
total 3435 pounds
Friday: 135X5, 175X5, 225X5, 250X5, 275X5
total 5300 pounds



perhaps someone should sticky this as a 5x5 thread?

Anthony
09-02-2005, 11:31 AM
perhaps someone should sticky this as a 5x5 thread?

Done. And thanks for the posts. :)