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Fitnessfreak
08-28-2005, 10:32 PM
Okay I'm gonna but my training notes and stuff in here, I guess it helps to see it written down and to recieve any tips to keep me going.

I'll post my diet and then my training and see where it goes from there.

Again goal is to go 100% towards leaness while maintaining LBM on my cut.

Fitnessfreak
08-28-2005, 10:35 PM
My diet is pretty strict. I follow a calorie restricted diet that has no white sugar, no white flour. I do not keep track of protein, carbs, fats because I do not eat certain food (no High GI except post - workout, no sat fats etc). This is the only thing that has ever worked for me and I've lost 60 lbs on it and its very healthy I can stay on it for long periods of time. Its something like this:

Breakfast:
- oatmeal 120 cals
- yogurt (NSA and FF) 100 cals
- One pce fruit (apple) 80 cals
- 3 cooked egg whites 60 cals

Meal 2 (usually postworkout)
- 1 cup corn or peas (80 cals)
- 1/2 baked potatoe

Meal 3 (lunch)
- 2 pce WW bread 140 cals
- 3 slices turkey breast 60 cals
- saled
- 1 pce fruit 80 - 100 cals

Meal 4 (snack)
- 1 pce fruit 80 - 100 cals

Meal 5 (Dinner)
- either a stir fry of vegtables with 150g cooked chicken (320 cals) or a homemade pizza (1/2 ww pita with veggies and 30 g of FF cheese) with a saled (390 cals)
- 1 pce fruit 80 - 100 cals

Snack
- 3 cups popcorn 100 cals Total: 1560 cals

I usually have green tea throughout the day and eat more fruit and veggies if I'm still hungry. Now this diet works really well for me its well balanced out and I have to be careful about eating too much due to the hypothyroid thing.

I know there will be critics but be aware that it took me long to get here and I've gone through hell and back with thousands of diets. What works for you may not so much work for me; I learned this the hard way!!

Fitnessfreak
08-28-2005, 10:40 PM
Okay I'm thinking of changing meal 4 to 150 gram protein and 1 cup of brown rice. I also forgot to state that I take calcium and protein supplements as well as an EC stack before each workout.


I'm not sure about my macros because I hate focusing on that, I'm one of those people who can't stand to follow a diet based on friggin macros. I think its something like 90 g protein, 20g fat, and 260 g Carbs.

Matt04
08-28-2005, 10:42 PM
hey, good luck with your goals. look forward to seeing workouts.

Fitnessfreak
08-28-2005, 11:09 PM
Thanks Matt appreciate it!!

As for training /workouts please note that I've put them together based on my time schedule, heres my summer program then I'm changing it for school and will post my new program later:

sunday Legs:
Hip adductor - 3 sets x 15, 12, 10
Hip abductor - 3 sets X 15, 12, 10
Leg Extension - 3 sets x 15, 12 10
Leg curls - 3 sets x 15, 12, 10
Squats - 2 sets x 15 (145 lbs), 12 (185 lbs) or Lunges - 2 sets 15, 12
Machine Calf Raises - 3 sets 15 (280 lb), 12 (300lb), 10 (320lb)
Cardio - 30 mins on bike

Monday: Chest/ Triceps
Incline DB press - 15 (37.5lb / hand), 12 (37.5/hand), 10(40lb /hand)
Chest flys - 15, 12, 10 (alternate between DB and machine each week)
Rope pulldowns - 15, 12, 10
Skullcrushers - 15, 12, 10
Cardio - 45 - 60 min run or on X trainer

Tuesday: Cardio only or off day
60 mins Low intensity cardio or go for a swim

Wednesday: Shouldars
DB Shouldar press - 15, 12, 10
DB shouldar raises - 15, 12, 10
Rear delt machine - 15, 12, 10
DB Shrugs- 15, 12, 10
Cardio - 60 - 90 minutes

Thursday: Off day, but usually do abs with 30 - 45 minutes cardio

Friday: Back and Biceps
Lat pulldown - 15, 12, 10
Cable row - 15, 12, 10
Back extension - 15 x 3 sets
Cable curls - 15, 12, 10
DB seated curls (alternate) - 15, 12, 10

Saturdays - Off but again I sometimes do cardio 30 - 45 minutes

As for university time program it will be only 4 times a week and the volume goes down a great deal (Usually 2 sets with less exercises).

*Hides behind desk waiting for the critics to lash out*

Built
08-28-2005, 11:51 PM
I could not feel comfortable or get lean on such low calories and protein. If you can, you're very unusual. I do notice you do insane amounts of cardio, and that you're adding ephedrine into your workouts. This, to me, would be an indication that the diet is inappropriate.

Anything more than 20 minutes of cardio after a lifting workout is inadvisable. And if you can do an hour of cardio after lifting, well, you can't have been working very hard on the weights.

Are you doing full free squats, or is this on a machine/smith?

The adductor abductor thingie is pretty much useless as an exercise. About the only thing I could see it building is wider legs or hurting your hips. I avoid it like the plague. I don't want my legs any wider than they already are, but you may have skinny little legs that you're trying to widen up? Dunno. Even if this is the case, there are far more appropriate exercises to do.

Not seeing any chins. Not seeing any deadlifts. Not seeing a whole lot of posterior chain work, period.

And you appear to rely heavily on machines. You also appear to use rather high rep ranges. If you're trying to lean out, I would urge you to reconsider this strategy - you'll get stronger and harder using strength rather than hypertrophy ranges for your lifts.

But hey, if you're happy with your progress and getting lean and ripped, then ignore my post. I'm a big fan of not fixing non-broken things, no matter how little sense they make to me.

Built
08-29-2005, 12:02 AM
Okay I'm thinking of changing meal 4 to 150 gram protein and 1 cup of brown rice. I also forgot to state that I take calcium and protein supplements as well as an EC stack before each workout.
150g of protein all at once might be a bit of overkill. Or perhaps you meant 150 calories worth of protein - about 38g?


I'm not sure about my macros because I hate focusing on that, I'm one of those people who can't stand to follow a diet based on friggin macros. I think its something like 90 g protein, 20g fat, and 260 g Carbs.

20g of fat is about a third the minimum amount you should have to support proper endocrine function. 90g of protein with such low fats and such high carbs on a cut is a recipe for LBM loss.

You'd be safer raising your protein to 1.0-1.5g protein per pound LBM, fats should be a minimum of 0.5g/lb LBM (click the link in my sig for the journal reference for this guideline for fats).

So, for example, on your 1580 daily calories, a minimal mix (assuming your LBM is 110 lbs, which it may not be. I don't know and I'm guessing) could look like this:

Protein: 110g
Fat: 55g
Carbohydrate: 102g

You may not like looking at your macros, and I might not like it either, but the fact remains that your body will respond differently to different mixes. If your focus is on holding on to LBM and getting as lean as possible, I guarantee that you will have to become more anal about exactly what it is that you are putting into your body.

You don't have to like it to do it.

Fitnessfreak
08-29-2005, 01:32 AM
Built - As I told you before that I've had some struggles in the past, and one thing I'm quite aware of is that the recommendation in most articles that fat intake should not drop below 30% of total dialy calories for individuals doing intense physical activity (20 - 30 % for sedentary individuals) which is like 55g a day for me. The problem is that I have some trouble ingesting fat I think its possibly the mental aspect of it I'm trying to overcome, it might sound weird but fat (oil, margarine etc) basically makes me nauseous. Also the recommended amount of protein for active individuals is actually 1.5 - 2 g/ kg for active individuals based on what I have read (they are pretty close to your numbers) and I think that 90g in well in that range. The carbohydrates are extremely important for individuals I am (from personal experience) completely against low carbs diets they NEVER have worked for me; enough said. The recommended amount of carbohydrates for sedentary individuals is 4.5 g/ kg a day and for active individuals it may reach up to 8 g / kg per day (Pascoe and Gladden: 1996) at 260 g a day I barely meet this amount. 102 g as you stated is completly something that I would NEVER recommend to someone my age its quite misleading!!

Typo - I meant 150 grams of meat (like chicken) not protein, its like 30 g oops

- The hip adductor and abductor machines are actually awesome for leg definition, I used to avoid them at all costs and if you do heavy amounts of course your hips will get bigger. but if you use appropiate low weights witrh high reps it gives this sleek muscle curve which looks quite nice, I believe that with the heavy amounts and low reps you have been doing with this it may of course increase the size of your hips.

My squats are full free and brutal even my lunges have me completly exhausted when I'm done!! My weights are all towards fatigue and I don't lift baby size weights I do the heaviest weights I can lift appropiatly. Also I have changed my program for the summer and these do not include deadlifts or chin ups like my previous program but once I change it for school I will probably be doing the deadlifts again. I use machines combined with DB's. When I switch programs I might do something like switch the rear delt bench to rear delt machine and it works just as good. Plus I can't imagine my leg day without my leg ext/curls.

Again my pyramid program is for endurance it is carefully devised so that I am in 12-15 range for endurance while at the same time I go down to 10 reps for the final set which is usually for hypertrophy. This type of pyramid program is quite excellent for maintenance, I believe that (based on experience) using lower reps with high weights do not lean me out as much as this range does!!

Thanks for your feedback Built, its nice to know someones is there to help me out!!

Built
08-29-2005, 02:13 AM
Built - As I told you before that I've had some struggles in the past, and one thing I'm quite aware of is that the recommendation in most articles that fat intake should not drop below 30% of total dialy calories for individuals doing intense physical activity (20 - 30 % for sedentary individuals) which is like 55g a day for me.

The ratios are utterly meaningless. Think of protein and fat in terms of macronutrient dosing.

Extremely low fat is only really appropriate for someone taking anabolics - but without this assistance, your endocrine function needs support. 20g a day is far from sufficient to serve this task.

Sorry.


The problem is that I have some trouble ingesting fat I think its possibly the mental aspect of it I'm trying to overcome, it might sound weird but fat (oil, margarine etc) basically makes me nauseous.
Nobody should be eating margarine, ever.

I get most of my fats from foods, not oils. I consume a tablespoon of butter daily for the saturated fats, and usually two ounces of nuts and an egg yolk, in addition to whatever residual fats come along from the meat and cottage cheese that I consume.

In practice, I get in about 0.7g/lb LBM, which is higher than the 0.5g/lb LBM minimum. I find this comfortable; I realize not everybody needs it this high. But what PERCENTAGE of my calories this constitutes means about as much as the ratio of my thumb diameter to my head diameter. Just because you can measure something doesn't make it meaningful.


Also the recommended amount of protein for active individuals is actually 1.5 - 2 g/ kg for active individuals based on what I have read (they are pretty close to your numbers)

No, these are lower than the typical recommendations you'll see listed here. I don't think they're high enough, and most people here would probably agree.


and I think that 90g in well in that range. The carbohydrates are extremely important for individuals I am (from personal experience) completely against low carbs diets they NEVER have worked for me; enough said.
There are essential fatty acids and essential amino acids. There are NO essential carbohydrates. I have no idea what you are basing this statement on. And no idea why you feel that obtaining over a thousand calories a day of your 1580 daily calories from the one non-essential macronutrient is so important.

I did not suggest anywhere that you consume a low carbohydrate diet.

I find that controlling my carbohydrate consumption and targeting it to my lifts works well for me in terms of appetite control, and is protective of LBM on a cut. A hypocaloric, high carbohydrate diet is not.


The recommended amount of carbohydrates for sedentary individuals is 4.5 g/ kg a day and for active individuals it may reach up to 8 g / kg per day (Pascoe and Gladden: 1996) at 260 g a day I barely meet this amount. 102 g as you stated is completly something that I would NEVER recommend to someone my age its quite misleading!!
Again, this makes no sense. And the research you cite is almost 10 years out of date. There are no essential carbohydrates. Why anyone would WANT to eat this many on a cut is beyond me. On a bulk, sure. You still have room in your calories to spare for the protein and fat. On a cut ... you clearly don't.


- The hip adductor and abductor machines are actually awesome for leg definition, I used to avoid them at all costs and if you do heavy amounts of course your hips will get bigger. but if you use appropiate low weights witrh high reps it gives this sleek muscle curve which looks quite nice, I believe that with the heavy amounts and low reps you have been doing with this it may of course increase the size of your hips.

I've never seen anyone get good results from this machine. And if low weight with high reps worked, you'd see lots of ripped soccer moms getting out of toning class at the community center. This type of training is at least 20 years out of date.

Hypertrophy ranges for women often reach into the 12 rep range. I tend to train in the 5-8 rep range. For cutting, I stick to the lower rep ranges. This helps the muscles get harder and protects LBM. Higher rep ranges do nothing to protect your LBM.

And I don't for a second delude myself that working even in the hypertrophy ranges on a cut will make ANY part of me bigger.

I wish it would, but alas, that is simply not to be.

As a final note, you cannot change the shape of a muscle, and you cannot spot reduce. Sorry.



My squats are full free and brutal even my lunges have me completly exhausted when I'm done!! My weights are all towards fatigue and I don't lift baby size weights I do the heaviest weights I can lift appropiatly. Also I have changed my program for the summer and these do not include deadlifts or chin ups like my previous program but once I change it for school I will probably be doing the deadlifts again. I use machines combined with DB's. When I switch programs I might do something like switch the rear delt bench to rear delt machine and it works just as good. Plus I can't imagine my leg day without my leg ext/curls.
Machines have their place. I'm not sure of the order of your workouts - you may not have them listed in order. If they are, you might reconsider the structure.



Again my pyramid program is for endurance it is carefully devised so that I am in 12-15 range for endurance while at the same time I go down to 10 reps for the final set which is usually for hypertrophy. This type of pyramid program is quite excellent for maintenance, I believe that (based on experience) using lower reps with high weights do not lean me out as much as this range does!!

Then you are a genetic freak. There is no science to back you up. But there is plenty to support using low rep ranges for cutting.

Here's an article for you: http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do;jsessionid=716538E9B8C780A4F456BF8396439FC5.titan?article=214rip


Thanks for your feedback Built, its nice to know someones is there to help me out!!

You are most welcome. I don't see you being particularly receptive to the ideas I've presented, but I think you'll find they're pretty standard on this board. We've all tried them in various combinations, and we use them because they work better than anything else.

dissipate
08-29-2005, 05:56 AM
welcome to journal land fitnessfreak :)


The problem is that I have some trouble ingesting fat I think its possibly the mental aspect of it I'm trying to overcome, it might sound weird but fat (oil, margarine etc) basically makes me nauseous.

hmmm how'd you feel about almonds.. walnuts... avocado... natty PB? these things don't taste and look so 'fatty'....

Isaac Wilkins
08-29-2005, 06:13 AM
I'm a 255 lb 25 year-old guy and I lean out much better on under 200g of carbs a day. I've done keto diets which usually end up being under 50 or 60g of carbs per day for me, and they work, but they're not what I prefer. Assuming I'm not doing some sort of carbohydrate cycling (which I like), I usually shoot for around 150g of net carbs when dieting. Remember that I'm a lot bigger and testosterone-capable.

I agree with Built on most of what she's saying here. Up your fats significantly, up your protein slightly, and moderate your carbs a bit. Other than your fat intake your diet is relatively healthy. Your food choices are pretty good for health. They're not ideal for getting very lean. You've done a fantastic job losing 60 pounds! After losing so much weight it's unlikely that simply dropping calories like you have been is going to keep you going. 1200-1400 is the bare minimum of calories most women should take in and you're skirting close to that, especially with all of your cardio.

Your meal #2 is essentially starch. That should have some protein to it.

Swap out a cup or two of popcorn for a serving or two of cottage cheese in your last meal. This will help evening satiety and help against muscle wasting.

Congratulations again on your fat loss. That is a terrific accomplishment.

Fitnessfreak
08-29-2005, 10:58 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys. I've just added some natty peanut butter which was in storage so long, I'm going to keep the carbohydrates the same, when you see your plan laid out like above its so easy to add changes.

I don't follow the traditional cut and bulk that most people on this board follow and I recommend lower carb, higher then protein diets only to people who cut and bulk. I wanna lose 3 - 4% more BF and then maintain it from there by only increasing calories of these types of food not by changing my macronutrients. 260g / day is really low in carbs then should usually should be for my type of lifestyle (lots of Cardio etc...) and the way I want to change my diet after I lose that weight.

Built your right I don't touch margarine, all I think of clogged arteries when I see that stuff (even the low cal ones). But I think 30 g of trail mix or nuts will be easy to add on (I'll try)!!

Borris - I'm going to keep my intake the same with no extra protein, the nuts and natty PB I add on will give me about 10 g more protein which will bring it up to 100g. I'm very health orientated which is a major focus in my diet. Also my starch meal includes protein supplements that I take directly post - workout (about 30 g).

By the way I'm not particularly receptive because I've tried everything BodyBuilders have thrown in suggestions and for one year I never lost a single pound on the screwed up diets. As a result, I'm extremely cautious. Also, what you guys mention is actually completely different then what most educational journals and articles that I have covered state. The only people who should eat like that are bodybuilders. Not girls who want to lose the last 10 pounds. Also genetics and body types play a large role on what may work for one person and not for others!!

Hatred
08-29-2005, 11:08 AM
LURKER!!!!!!! :lurk:

Built
08-29-2005, 11:51 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys. I've just added some natty peanut butter which was in storage so long, I'm going to keep the carbohydrates the same, when you see your plan laid out like above its so easy to add changes.

I don't follow the traditional cut and bulk that most people on this board follow and I recommend lower carb, higher then protein diets only to people who cut and bulk. I wanna lose 3 - 4% more BF and then maintain it from there by only increasing calories of these types of food not by changing my macronutrients.

Bad idea.

260g / day is really low in carbs then should usually should be for my type of lifestyle (lots of Cardio etc...) and the way I want to change my diet after I lose that weight.
At your size, 260g a day for someone doing lots of cardio is really, REALLY high. Unless the goal is to carefully maintain bodyfat levels (ie marathon runners who need to keep their bodyfat for race-day). Endurance athletes have very different goals than physique athletes. If your goal is to run as far as possible, use the high-carb approach. If your goal is to get lean, I would strongly urge you to reconsider what you "know" to be "true".

It simply isn't.


Built your right I don't touch margarine, all I think of clogged arteries when I see that stuff (even the low cal ones). But I think 30 g of trail mix or nuts will be easy to add on (I'll try)!!

I don't recommend trail mix. If you're going to bother putting in nuts for the healthy fats, stick to raw. Walnuts are very high in Omega-3. Butter is also an excellent source of healthy, naturally saturated fat, in small quantities. That's why I make sure to consume a tablespoon of it every day.


Borris - I'm going to keep my intake the same with no extra protein, the nuts and natty PB I add on will give me about 10 g more protein which will bring it up to 100g.
Think of peanut butter as a fat source, not a protein source. To get 10g of protein from peanut butter, you'll need about 2.5 tablespoons, which will give you 20g if fat that you sorely need, but will also raise your calories by about 240. If you add in this much peanut butter but do not reduce your calories from elsewhere, you'll likely see an increase in your weight. Probably not what you want right now.

I would urge you to drop your carbs by this many calories to avoid sudden weight gain. This will still give you a VERY high carbohydrate diet, just not quite AS high. The peanut butter will only "cost" you 60g of carbohydrate. 200g of carbohydrate is still a LOT of carbohydrate on such low calories. About DOUBLE what I generally consume, and my calories are higher than yours. I'm also the leanest I've ever been in my life right now.

I don't know where your fear of lowering carbohydrates comes from, but anything over a hundred grams of carb a day hardly qualifies as a low carb diet.

And there's nothing unhealthy about lower carbohydrate approaches to diet anyway. Your information sounds like it comes from textbooks. And is very out of date.




I'm very health orientated which is a major focus in my diet. Also my starch meal includes protein supplements that I take directly post - workout (about 30 g).

By the way I'm not particularly receptive because I've tried everything BodyBuilders have thrown in suggestions and for one year I never lost a single pound on the screwed up diets.
Then why are you posting on a bodybuilding board?
As a result, I'm extremely cautious. Also, what you guys mention is actually completely different then what most educational journals and articles that I have covered state.
DING DING DING DING DING we have a winner! That's right! We share information here on what ACTUALLY WORKS. I don't know what you've tried already, but if you didn't lose weight, you didn't tweak it sufficiently to work for you.

If I followed standard nutritional guidelines, I'd still be 170 lbs with high cholesterol and on type II diabetes medication.

Actually, I lie. I was gaining 10-20 pounds a year then.

I'd be morbidly obese by now.

Yes, that's what my low-fat, low-protein, high-complex-carbohydrate diet got me to after carefully sticking to it with tons of cardio for about 20 years.

Good times. Thank God I don't follow their advise anymore. I eat more and exercise less than I did then. And I am hovering around 15% bodyfat right now. Instead of 40%. Cholesterol enviably low. No more migraines, no more constant colds. Pursuing my physique goals has given me astonishingly good health.


The only people who should eat like that are bodybuilders. Not girls who want to lose the last 10 pounds. Also genetics and body types play a large role on what may work for one person and not for others!!

We are all waaaay more similar than we are different.

I only got this lean by eating and training like a bodybuilder. But I sure see a lot of fat chicks at the gym using your approach.

If you manage to get it to work for you, great.

But I'll be REALLY surprised.

dissipate
08-29-2005, 10:42 PM
By the way I'm not particularly receptive because I've tried everything BodyBuilders have thrown in suggestions and for one year I never lost a single pound on the screwed up diets. As a result, I'm extremely cautious. Also, what you guys mention is actually completely different then what most educational journals and articles that I have covered state. The only people who should eat like that are bodybuilders. Not girls who want to lose the last 10 pounds. Also genetics and body types play a large role on what may work for one person and not for others!!

i reckon everyone who wants to lose weight should eat and train like bodybuilders actually... maybe not like the pros but at least like beginners. i was at around 30% bodyfat 2 years ago.. started eating and training like a bodybuilder.. dropped to around 17% in about 8 months with good advice from this board.

it's true that what works for one may not work for another, so it _is_ good to experiment. you might find something that works for you.. but there could be something else out there that works 10x better and helps you lose the last bits of stubborn fat.. and you'll never know till you try :P

i'm sorry you've had yuk advice for a year that didn't help.... lots of people on this board like built and borris know what they're talking about though, and i hope you'll give their advice a shot :)

Fitnessfreak
08-30-2005, 12:03 AM
.
At your size, 60g a day for someone doing lots of cardio is really, REALLY high. Unless the goal is to carefully maintain bodyfat levels (ie marathon runners who need to keep their bodyfat for race-day). Endurance athletes have very different goals than physique athletes. If your goal is to run as far as possible, use the high-carb approach. If your goal is to get lean, I would strongly urge you to reconsider what you "know" to be "true".

Built, actually there are various things to consider depending on your long term goals. The reason that low-carb gets a bad rap is because it is hard to maintain the weight loss when you go back to eating "normal". I did not say they didn't work but I'm trying to follow a diet that I can maintain the loss of fat when I'm done since I'm planning not to bulk afterward!! This diet seems to be working just fine.


.I don't recommend trail mix. If you're going to bother putting in nuts for the healthy fats, stick to raw. Walnuts are very high in Omega-3. Butter is also an excellent source of healthy, naturally saturated fat, in small quantities. That's why I make sure to consume a tablespoon of it every day.

Yes thats what I mean't I'll be adding healthy fats into my diet like olive oil, or nuts good monosaturated and polysaturated fats. But why you eat butter, I have no idea, saturated fats are actually the artery clogging stuff that it is better to avoid. Is there any particular reason you eat that?


Think of peanut butter as a fat source, not a protein source. To get 10g of protein from peanut butter, you'll need about 2.5 tablespoons, which will give you 20g if fat that you sorely need, but will also raise your calories by about 240. If you add in this much peanut butter but do not reduce your calories from elsewhere, you'll likely see an increase in your weight. Probably not what you want right now.

I stated that I'm trying to increase the fat intake which is more important which is why I'll add 1 tbs of peanut butter to my overall intake. I'm planning to increase my calories in specific required areas and thats one of them.


I would urge you to drop your carbs by this many calories to avoid sudden weight gain. This will still give you a VERY high carbohydrate diet, just not quite AS high. The peanut butter will only "cost" you 60g of carbohydrate. 200g of carbohydrate is still a LOT of carbohydrate on such low calories. About DOUBLE what I generally consume, and my calories are higher than yours. I'm also the leanest I've ever been in my life right now.
No 200g I still find to low based on my long term goals. I can very easily switch to 150 g of carbohydrates a day which has made me nauseous in the past and. It will possibly work (based on your oversureness). Yet when I'm done I'll probably gain it all back. How do I know? BECAUSE IT HAPPENED TO ME IN THE PAST.


I don't know where your fear of lowering carbohydrates comes from, but anything over a hundred grams of carb a day hardly qualifies as a low carb diet.

The fact that I gain EVERYTHING back and crave food so bad at merely 175 g carbohydrates no matter how balanced my diet is, is one reason


And there's nothing unhealthy about lower carbohydrate approaches to diet anyway. Your information sounds like it comes from textbooks. And is very out of date.

Actually, it comes from dozens of articles I keep in my filing cabinet, notes from university, online articles, research articles, professional bodybuilders and on and on. I'm not some idiot who makes up crap. I'm well-educated in different perspectives. I never once said your diet is wrong or crappy actually I think your diet suites you and is excellent, I know many people who follow various types of diets that I support. there is no one size fits all, it all comes down to whether they work for you individually. I'm saying that for me as an individual this works for me


Then why are you posting on a bodybuilding board?

I have a great respect for bodybuilders. There are no other people who understand their body better then them. I learn stuff here I can never read in any physical education, science or medical course at the most advanced levels of education. Only here can you figure out the right dosage of supplements, the right way to put together a program or any other little stuff. I also came here originally to read the articles on strength training which were very well-written. Nutrition to me is sensitive so what works works even if bodybuilders don't agree with it


DING DING DING DING DING we have a winner! That's right! We share information here on what ACTUALLY WORKS. I don't know what you've tried already, but if you didn't lose weight, you didn't tweak it sufficiently to work for you.

Well, this works for me!!


Good times. Thank God I don't follow their advise anymore. I eat more and exercise less than I did then. And I am hovering around 15% bodyfat right now. Instead of 40%. Cholesterol enviably low. No more migraines, no more constant colds. Pursuing my physique goals has given me astonishingly good health.

Good for you built, I admire you for that. I know it was a long jouney for you but at least you are there now.


I only got this lean by eating and training like a bodybuilder. But I sure see a lot of fat chicks at the gym using your approach.

I never got this lean by training like a bodybuilder. I got it by following a health orientated diet combined with cardio and weights. I'm no fat chick built, I'm actually quite slim, I've lost 60 lbs. If those fat chicks don't lose weight then maybe they should train like what you consider a bodybuilder eats, maybe it might worrk for them. It sure hasn't worked for me!!

Built
08-30-2005, 01:50 PM
Built, actually there are various things to consider depending on your long term goals. The reason that low-carb gets a bad rap is because it is hard to maintain the weight loss when you go back to eating "normal". I did not say they didn't work but I'm trying to follow a diet that I can maintain the loss of fat when I'm done since I'm planning not to bulk afterward!! This diet seems to be working just fine.

Two problems here.
1. I didnít say you should eat low carb. 100+ g of carb a day hardly qualifies as low carb.
2. Why on EARTH would someone go back to a diet that made them sick and fat?

Not everybody bulks and cuts. But it is worth letting your weight creep up 5 pounds for a bit every once in a while, then dropping it off again. Good for your metabolism, and you get a bit of a break from dieting and some killer strength gains without your clothes fitting significantly differently.



Yes thats what I mean't I'll be adding healthy fats into my diet like olive oil, or nuts good monosaturated and polysaturated fats. But why you eat butter, I have no idea, saturated fats are actually the artery clogging stuff that it is better to avoid. Is there any particular reason you eat that?
As Iím sure you know from your studies, small amounts of naturally saturated fats are necessary and beneficial to your health.

There is scientific evidence that small amounts of naturally saturated fats are necessary for proper endocrine function, in particular, for testosterone production. I happen to like the taste of butter and egg yolks, so I get my saturated fats from them. I also consume coconut milk from time to time for the same reason.

Both butter and coconut oil are excellent sources of MCT Ė butter containing about an eighth of itís fat in this form; coconut oil, about half.

I also consume olive oil, avocados, or raw nuts daily, as well as 10g of fish oil every day. I keep my protein sources lean so that I can add in fats as I require them.




I stated that I'm trying to increase the fat intake which is more important which is why I'll add 1 tbs of peanut butter to my overall intake. I'm planning to increase my calories in specific required areas and thats one of them.
I donít know what brand of pb you eat that has 10g of protein in a tablespoon Ö my Adams Crunchy natural peanut butter has 4.5g of protein in a 15g (one tablespoon) serving.



No 200g I still find to low based on my long term goals. I can very easily switch to 150 g of carbohydrates a day which has made me nauseous in the past and. It will possibly work (based on your oversureness). Yet when I'm done I'll probably gain it all back. How do I know? BECAUSE IT HAPPENED TO ME IN THE PAST.
It will, if you overeat.

Itís not ALL about macronutrients. Itís also about calories. But since there are NO essential carbohydrates, why centre your diet on them? 200 g of carb on your level of calories is a BOATLOAD of carbohydrates.



The fact that I gain EVERYTHING back and crave food so bad at merely 175 g carbohydrates no matter how balanced my diet is, is one reason

My bet is that you tried to do this on low levels of dietary fat. Not only is low fat not particularly good for you on lower carbohydrates (you risk going into a protein-oxidative state, as Iím sure youíre aware), itís not satisfying. Youíll be freakishly hungry. And unless youíre weighing your food, you wonít know youíre overeating. Itís unbelievably easy to get in an extra hundred calories if youíre not paying attention, and when you start tweaking macronutrients, as annoying as this is, itís really the only way to know. Itís like running a business Ė you need accounting, no matter how much you hate it.



Actually, it comes from dozens of articles I keep in my filing cabinet, notes from university, online articles, research articles, professional bodybuilders and on and on. I'm not some idiot who makes up crap. I'm well-educated in different perspectives. I never once said your diet is wrong or crappy actually I think your diet suites you and is excellent, I know many people who follow various types of diets that I support. there is no one size fits all, it all comes down to whether they work for you individually. I'm saying that for me as an individual this works for me.



I have a great respect for bodybuilders. There are no other people who understand their body better then them. I learn stuff here I can never read in any physical education, science or medical course at the most advanced levels of education. Only here can you figure out the right dosage of supplements, the right way to put together a program or any other little stuff. I also came here originally to read the articles on strength training which were very well-written. Nutrition to me is sensitive so what works works even if bodybuilders don't agree with it



Well, this works for me!!



Good for you built, I admire you for that. I know it was a long jouney for you but at least you are there now.



I never got this lean by training like a bodybuilder. I got it by following a health orientated diet combined with cardio and weights. I'm no fat chick built, I'm actually quite slim, I've lost 60 lbs. If those fat chicks don't lose weight then maybe they should train like what you consider a bodybuilder eats, maybe it might worrk for them. It sure hasn't worked for me!!

Youíre twenty. Lemme know how youíre doing when youíre my age.

I lost the first 30 pounds the way youíre doing it when I was 23.

Iím 5í8Ē tall. At 22, I weighed 123 pounds. At 23, I weighed 153 lbs. I lost those 30 pounds doing low-fat, low-calorie dieting with lots of cardio and light weights.

It all came back, and it brought friends: I spent the next 15 years struggling with my weight, dieting and training myself UP to 170 lbs and probably 40% bodyfat.

At thirty EIGHT, I changed my diet to higher protein and fat, and controlled carbohydrates, while limiting cardio and focussing on heavy lifting.

In one year, I dropped over thirty pounds, and kept it off.

I have gone from a size 14 to a size 2-4 since the fall of 2001. And at 42, I have NO trouble keeping it off.

I currently hover at around 15% bodyfat, where I will remain until I start my bulk this winter. At 130 lbs, I maintain this level of bodyfat on just under 2000 calories a day with very little cardio.

I wish you every success in achieving your physique goals. But everything youíre doing reminds me of the failed attempts I had in losing weight at a similar age. It took me a LONG time to ignore the advise of so-called experts who would have had me focus on ďmy healthĒ while consuming 55% of my calories from carbohydrate, 15% from protein and 30% from fat, as if these ratios were meaningful.

Carefully sticking to these protocols got me up to 170 lbs with high cholesterol and on type II diabetes medication. At 38. WAAAAAY too young for an active woman to be having these problems.

When I changed my focus to physique goals, the astonishingly good health fell out as a side effect: cholesterol went from 232 (age 33) to 138 (age 41). The weight came off, and stayed off. My migraines stopped. I no longer seem to get colds ( I think I almost had the sniffles once in the last four years).

The way youíre going about your training and your diet reminds me of the worst things about the fitness industry. The fact that youíre so earnest and so adament about what you believe just makes me sad. Nobody should have to go so low in calories and do so many hours of training to achieve their physique goals. Youíre going to be part of an industry that shouldnít promote this type of harmful misinformation. Iíve been harmed by it, and it makes me angry to think that it continues. I donít know why the stuff they teach in kinesiology programmes is so out of date, but it appears old myths die hard.

Youíre a puzzle, fitnessfreak.

You claim to want help, but then you stick by your research articles that support your point of view.

You claim to be winning the battle of the bulge, but you are trying to track down ephedra and are, quite frankly, overtraining to achieve your goals. These both indicate to me that your diet is ineffective.

If it was just you, well, that would be your problem.

But youíre going to be working as a personal trainer, and later, in sports medicine. Youíll be in a position of authority. People who need help will trust you.

And that scares me.

Fitnessfreak
08-30-2005, 03:06 PM
Is that what you see me as built. I think you see me to represent a future professional who will end up giving people bad advise. You seem to be taking out your anger at me because of other professionals with my background who have let you down.

Well how about this, I have tried advise exactly like yours before me and my sister went on the same diet she lost weight I didn't, when I upped my carbs and lowered the protein I actually lost more weight. This made me aware that there are thousands of diets out there that work. I don't follow articles to the point, I'm trying to rely more on individual goals and personal experience rather then using a meltng pot of a diet that is stated in dozens of articles and textbooks, I've even had a large argument with professors about information I find pathetic and irrational and useless which they suggest in class. I had one professor state that 65% of diets should be Carbohydrates for everyone and that protein is useless. This made me angry for him to say that to various future training professionals in my class and yes like you said it scares me too.

Some things I am changing your advise on fats is excellent and something that I should be aware of. You really know your stuff I never said you were wrong, in fact I give advise everyday to bodybuilders on suggestions to improve their diet, on things you mention. Some things I am cautious about such as larger protein intakes (over 200 g) because I don't think they work for everyone. Yet if someone says to me they are on a High protein diet, moderate carb the first thing I say is not "thats not right" but "is it working for you?"

I'm taking a personal risk and following a 40% Carb/ 30% protein/ and 30% fat diet in order to ensure it goes well balanced with epehdrine HCL. I'm also increasing my calories to 1900 which is still below maintenance. I will be taking 200 g carbs, 140g protein and 63 g fats. I want my BF to be 14-15% I am currently at 18% and extremely lean in my upper body. The reason I'm taking ephedrine is to help mobilize the stubborn fat in my lower body. I'm a size 6 - 7 and everyone says I shouldn't lose any more weight. I have been at this weight and maintained it for 2 years. I'm going on a cut to lose 3 - 4% more and thats my final goal.

BTW I'm not sticking to research articles most of my current diet information has come from a female bodybuilder who has just finished her competition at 8% BF which is quite impressive. I also included advise from other bodybuilder websites and such.

Don't see me as a threat built, try to see that you are stubborn too and that there are diets out there other then yours that work just as good. Try not to follow a one size fits all path be more open-minded, even I am working at this to ensure in the future I provide the best possible health advise to people and help keep them on track. Who knows, maybe when I'm your age I might have to switch to a diet like yours but for now I'm trying something slightly different that I think might work.

Fitnessfreak
08-30-2005, 03:20 PM
As Iím sure you know from your studies, small amounts of naturally saturated fats are necessary and beneficial to your health.

There is scientific evidence that small amounts of naturally saturated fats are necessary for proper endocrine function, in particular, for testosterone production. I happen to like the taste of butter and egg yolks, so I get my saturated fats from them. I also consume coconut milk from time to time for the same reason.

Both butter and coconut oil are excellent sources of MCT Ė butter containing about an eighth of itís fat in this form; coconut oil, about half.

Thats so interesting I had no idea, I always heard that to make sure less then 10% of your dialy intake be saturated fat. Do you have the article for this? its something I'd like to read more about.



I donít know what brand of pb you eat that has 10g of protein in a tablespoon Ö my Adams Crunchy natural peanut butter has 4.5g of protein in a 15g (one tablespoon) serving.
Yep my natty PB has 5g Tbs but 30 grams of peanuts/nuts has like 14 g of fat and 10 g of protein. I mean't that combined with nuts not individually.



Itís not ALL about macronutrients. Itís also about calories. But since there are NO essential carbohydrates, why centre your diet on them? 200 g of carb on your level of calories is a BOATLOAD of carbohydrates.

I'm upping my calories Built I think they are a bit low and I need more energy once university starts anyway.



When I changed my focus to physique goals, the astonishingly good health fell out as a side effect: cholesterol went from 232 (age 33) to 138 (age 41). The weight came off, and stayed off. My migraines stopped. I no longer seem to get colds ( I think I almost had the sniffles once in the last four years).
Built I can totally relate I never get sick I haven't had a cold in 3 years. Even my blood pressure is known to be "perfect." I always feel awesome.

Built
08-30-2005, 03:27 PM
Is that what you see me as built. I think you see me to represent a future professional who will end up giving people bad advise. You seem to be taking out your anger at me because of other professionals with my background who have let you down.
Only because they suggested doing massive amounts of cardio and eating low fat and high carb. Like you are.



Well how about this, I have tried advise exactly like yours before me and my sister went on the same diet she lost weight I didn't, when I upped my carbs and lowered the protein I actually lost more weight.
Of course you would. Lower protein means more loss of muscle.



This made me aware that there are thousands of diets out there that work. I don't follow articles to the point, I'm trying to rely more on individual goals and personal experience rather then using a meltng pot of a diet that is stated in dozens of articles and textbooks, I've even had a large argument with professors about information I find pathetic and irrational and useless which they suggest in class. I had one professor state that 65% of diets should be Carbohydrates for everyone and that protein is useless. This made me angry for him to say that to various future training professionals in my class and yes like you said it scares me too.

<sigh>

65%, 55%, 10% - I wish people would learn to let go of the ratios. The ratio approach is truly meaningless.



Some things I am changing your advise on fats is excellent and something that I should be aware of. You really know your stuff I never said you were wrong, in fact I give advise everyday to bodybuilders on suggestions to improve their diet, on things you mention. Some things I am cautious about such as larger protein intakes (over 200 g) because I don't think they work for everyone. Yet if someone says to me they are on a High protein diet, moderate carb the first thing I say is not "thats not right" but "is it working for you?"

200g of protein is perfectly appropriate for larger people. It's sometimes what I like, but I don't for a minute think it's all being utilized as protein. After a point, it becomes expensive glucose. But it IS very satisfying, and appetite control is a huge part of any successful diet plan.



I'm taking a personal risk and following a 40% Carb/ 30% protein/ and 30% fat diet in order to ensure it goes well balanced with epehdrine HCL.

I don't see why anyone would feel that these, or any other ratios are in any way meaningful. They are not.

Just make sure you get in the protein and fats you require. Fill up the rest of your calories with carbs if you like.

For you, this could easily mean on 1600 calories that you consume 110g protein, 55g of fat and 166g carbohydrate.

Increase your calories suddenly to 1900, ON ANY MIX YOU LIKE, and I can virtually guarantee you that you will gain weight. I don't recommend this.

If you would like to switch your mix at 1600 calories for a while, this might be a good place to start.

I plan to bulk in October. I will be slowly increasing my calories, an extra daily one hundred for a few weeks, then another Ö carefully watching my fat gain. I don't want to go above 20% bodyfat on my bulk.

If I increased calories quickly in the way you suggest, I would get too fat, too quickly. I would urge you to reconsider your strategy, unless what you're planning is a bit of a dirty bulk. Which I don't think you are. ;)


I'm also increasing my calories to 1900 which is still below maintenance. I will be taking 200 g carbs, 140g protein and 63 g fats. I want my BF to be 14-15% I am currently at 18% and extremely lean in my upper body. The reason I'm taking ephedrine is to help mobilize the stubborn fat in my lower body. I'm a size 6 - 7 and everyone says I shouldn't lose any more weight. I have been at this weight and maintained it for 2 years. I'm going on a cut to lose 3 - 4% more and thats my final goal.

Be careful with the Ephedrine. I've actually read research that suggests Ephedrine is contra-indicated in mobilizing lower body fat. Just FYI.

BTW I'm not sticking to research articles most of my current diet information has come from a female bodybuilder who has just finished her competition at 8% BF which is quite impressive. I also included advise from other bodybuilder websites and such.
8% is required. They all compete at 8% or lower.

And many use very weird drugs and extremely unnecessarily extreme dieting strategies to achieve this end. I grew up around this lifestyle, and it often ain't very pretty. I wouldn't be looking to how competitive BB diet down for contests to get advise on how to become lean as a lifestyle. Lifestyle physique goals and competitive bodybuilding are actually quite different from each other. You've noted this yourself earlier, in stating that you don't want to bulk.


Don't see me as a threat built, try to see that you are stubborn too and that there are diets out there other then yours that work just as good. Try not to follow a one size fits all path be more open-minded, even I am working at this to ensure in the future I provide the best possible health advise to people and help keep them on track. Who knows, maybe when I'm your age I might have to switch to a diet like yours but for now I'm trying something slightly different that I think might work.

My diet is not a structure, but an algorithm. It's based on obtaining sufficient, lbm-dependent doses of the essential macronutrients and appetite control. The mix from person to person will vary tremendously on this paradigm. That's why it bears repeating that the ratios of macronutrients are truly meaningless. You have to find your own mix (while satisfying the minimums of essential macronutrients), and the tweaking involved in doing so can be maddening. That's why there's no one diet that works for all. But there are necessary minimums, so as annoying as it is, you sooner or later have to pay attention to the macronutrients.

Patz
08-30-2005, 04:13 PM
Sorry FF, but you're way off base..

Common sense tells us that if the body is running on lots of carbs all day, it won't be forced to switch to reserve fuel (bodyfat) at ANY time. You're only losing weight due to an overall caloric deficit from insane amounts of cardio, along with the ephedra (and I hope you're drinking craploads of water, while staying out of the sun?). The diet is way off balance, and as you get thinner your body will rely on muslce mass for fuel before the fat stores--it's survial at its most primitive function. You'll get discouraged as the weight continues to slowly drop, while your bodyshape and bodyfat don't improve.

Fitnessfreak
08-31-2005, 02:53 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys. Heres an updated cut diet I will start on next week when school starts. As you can see I upped the calories slightly (from 1600). I also brought down my carb, upped the fat, and upped the protein. This is a start I can't do anything too drastic yet. Its designed for me, my lifestyle and includes things I cannot survive without (nectarines and light hot chocolate). I know I can stay on this, it won't be exact this day to day (For example, I might change the ww bread to ww pasta sometimes or have 2 egg whites in the morning when I have time to cook them)

I used alot of different suggestions including some research articles, some information from build and other bodybuilders to personally design this. Feel free to offer suggestions because I haven't started it yet I can still tweak it a bit. I showed it to me strength training pofessor and all he said was up the carbs, I'm not listening for once, I might lower them a bit more but not until I see where this gets me.

Meal 1 Ė
Oatmeal Ė 120
Banana Ė Small (93)
Yogurt Ė 1 (50)

Meal 2 Ė
1 medium Apple (80)
2 stalks celery (20)
1 Tbs natty peanut Butter (94)

Meal 3 Ė(usually post workout)
Whey supplement (25 g) protein (100)
1 nectarine (66) Ė (to wash down the nasty whey)

Meal 4 Ė
- 3 slices turkey breast on 2 pieces ww bread (232) (includes lettuce and 1 Tbs light miracle whip dressing (32)
- 1 serving corn (80 cals) (or peas)

Meal 5 Ė
- Nuts 25 pieces (mixed - peanuts, walnuts etc..) (207)
- 1 nectarine (66)

Meal 6 Ė
- 200 g cooked chicken (225)
- 1 cup mixed vegetables (100 cals) (stirred in with chicken)
- 4 cups lettuce (22), with 0.5 Tbs olive oil (60) and 1 Tbs lemon juice (5)

Evening snack Ė
- 1 cup carnation Hot chocolate light (45 Cals) Ė This is the only thing that keeps me sane. Or I might have 1 cup of cocoa with hot water (16 cals) - During exam week I tend to add coffeee to this, and I tend to drink alot of green tea.

Total Calories: 1790,
30% Fat 58g (11g sat, 14 poly, 26 mono), 30% protein (129g), 40% carbs 211g (38g fiber).

Sweetner I'll use is splenda. I'll be Drinking 12-15 cups water a day.

I'm happy with this because its something I can follow without thinking about. I'm a little upset I had to cut out some food I really like (raisens and popcorn) Hopefully it will be worth it.

Current weight 142 lbs, goal weight 134lbs.
Current BF: 18.5% Goal: 14-15%

My cardio will be drastically cut down (30 minutes - 4 times a week). Since I will have much less time to workout. If this works out I'm giving my professors a large overhaul on their information!!

I'll post my new training program when I'm finished designing it.

Built
08-31-2005, 03:15 PM
Please do yourself a favour and stop thinking of your macronutrients in terms of their ratios. At best they mean nothing; at worst, they're misleading.

Your current macronutrient breakdown looks minimally sufficient - roughly 1g/lb of what I assume your LBM to be for protein (I'm thinking your LBM is about the same as mine - 115), roughly half a gram of fat per pound LBM, calories look fine, but I might suggest knocking them closer to 1700 for a week or two before ramping them up to 1800 since you've been below 1600 for a bit. You may be fine. But you're cutting back on your caloric expenditure AND increasing daily calories by 200. This would mean fat gain on my body. Maybe you're different somehow? Dunno. Just watch it. I'm currently ramping up my calories and dropping back cardio, and I'm only increasing my daily calories by a hundred for this week and probably next. I'll add in another hundred the following week if my weight remains stable.

If I was micromanaging your food, I'd ditch the banana from breakfast for the next week.

My .02

I would suggest you rethink what a "meal" is. A meal is 1/6 of your daily protein, plus other stuff. So … Meals 1, 2 and 5 aren't meals - not enough protein to qualify. But toss in a half cup cottage cheese with any of these, and you're cooking with gas.

I don't like whey for cutting, personally. I rely heavily on lowfat or fat free cottage cheese for my supplemental protein. For one, I prefer to chew my food on a cut. For another, the casein is slower to digest, so I'm full longer. Whey has very tiny molecules and it's essentially pre-chewed, so it digests VERY quickly. If your pre-workout nutrition is in order, you don't need to worry about fast protein and carbs for post workout. Fruit isn't ideal for post workout anyway. Too much fructose.

I'd suggest having your oats with some cottage cheese pre and or post workout. I make protein waffles from cottage cheese, oats and eggwhites that I eat pre and post workout and it's really working well for me.

I've been eating half a waffle with about a quarter cup of cottage cheese and a few berries about an hour before I lift, and the same right after. Really hits the spot.

There's nothing wrong with keeping your light hot chocolate if it fits with your macros.

I'm hungriest at night (I train in the evening, after work), so I save my last meal (cottage cheese, handful of raw nuts, peach and or berries) for just before I go to sleep so I get to go to sleep on a full stomach. I can go peckish in the daytime, but it's IMPOSSIBLE in the evening. If I save some of my daytime calories for the evening, I'm fine.

Figure out when you're at your hungriest, and feed yourself accordingly.

Fitnessfreak
08-31-2005, 08:11 PM
Thanks for your advise Built. I'm aware of most of what your saying. Only thing is I usually add egg whites to my breakfast, but I usually have zero time to cook them before class so I want something quick and on the go. I was thinking of adding fibre cereal with half a cup milk. But I'm not so sure!!

I was going to eventually add in cottage cheese (thats where I might get my other 100 calories if I need to up my calories). However I was thinking of lowering the protein content of meal 6 (eg. take 175g of chicken instead) and adding half a cup cottage cheese to meal 5. Good idea??

I will try to cottage cheese idea once I finish up my whey supplement (don't want to waste it)

Once classes start I will be on the go 99% of the time, my activity level actually goes up because I tend to be awake longer and need more calories for brain power. My workouts are in the early mornings before classes I also will be working 20 hours a week and volunteering 12 hours a week and I have a fulltime 15 credit schedule. My work is a workout I probably burn 600-700 calories in one regular shift. Meals 2, and 5 are inbetween snacks I put them there to ensure I can get in food between classes I kind of designed it around my school, work and volunteer schedule.

Also definetly hungriest in the early afternoon, if it changes during school I will tweak my diet as required!!

Built
09-01-2005, 12:00 AM
The whey WON'T go bad. Ditch it for now and go with the cottage cheese - you can add the whey back in when you're eating more calories.

And I think your idea about spreading the protein around is sound. On the protein you're intending to eat, get in about 20g per meal for your six meals.

For breakfast, as boring as it sounds, I always eat exactly the same thing: 6 extra large or 5 jumbo eggs, hard-boiled, tossing all but one yolk, with a pat of butter and lots of salt (salt is anabolic, and helps you hold LBM when you're dieting)

I boil 'em the night before so they're ready for me in the morning.

Fitnessfreak
09-01-2005, 12:34 AM
The whey WON'T go bad. Ditch it for now and go with the cottage cheese - you can add the whey back in when you're eating more calories.

Okay I'll try that!!


For breakfast, as boring as it sounds, I always eat exactly the same thing: 6 extra large or 5 jumbo eggs, hard-boiled, tossing all but one yolk, with a pat of butter and lots of salt (salt is anabolic, and helps you hold LBM when you're dieting)

I boil 'em the night before so they're ready for me in the morning.Good Idea!! So theres good news about getting salt in on a cut, I always thought it was just good for holding some water and getting me bloated.

Fitnessfreak
09-01-2005, 01:30 AM
Alright heres my brand new workout plan, personally designed around my hectic schedule:

Day 1 - Sunday - Chest/Back
- Flat bench DB chest press, 2 sets x 10 - 12
- Db Chest Flys, 2 sets x 10 - 12
- Cable Lat Pulldown 2 sets x 10 - 12
- Cable Row 2 sets x 10 - 12
- Deadlifts 2 sets x 10 - 12
- Back Extension, 2 sets x 10 - 12 (Might change this)
Cardio: 5 mins pre workout warm up and 25 mins post workout HIITon cross trainer (1 min HI alteranted with 1 min low intensity)

Day 2 Monday-Cardio 30 min on treadmill and abs: - Decline crunches 2 x 10 - 12 (with weights)
- Cable Pulldowns 2 x 10 - 12
- Bicycle 2 sets x 1 min
Day 3 Tuesday - Rest

Day 4 Wednesday - Arms (Bicep/Triceps and shouldars)
- Seates DB shouldar Press 2 x 10 - 12
- Lateral DB Raises 2 x 10 - 12
- Rear Delt on Machine 2 x 10 - 12
Bicep/ Tricep supersets:
- Skullcrushers 2 x 10 - 12
- seated Bicep DB Curls 2 x 10 - 12
- Rope Pulldown 2 x 10 - 12
- Cable Curls 2 x 10 - 12
Cardio: 30 mins on bike HIIT

Day 5 Thurday - Rest

Day 6 Friday - Legs
- Squats 2 x 10 - 12
- Deadlifts 2 x 10 - 12
- Leg Curls 2 x 10 - 12
- Leg Extension 2 x 10 - 12
- Calf raises (alterante weekly btwn standing and seated) 2 x 10 - 12
Cardio - 30 mins on cross-trainer

Day 7 Saturday Rest - possible 20 - 30 mins cardio if I feel like it and have time.

Alright now heres the thing. Should I add leg press to my leg workouts I think the squats take enough out of them as it is? Also I think the 10 - 12 with very heavy weights (fatigue at that number) has worked really well for me before on a cut so I will use it again? Cardio has gone down but my general activity will be going up.
Any suggestions tips etc.

Fitnessfreak
09-01-2005, 01:38 AM
Hmm I think I should add in some shrugs and maybe chins I think thats better balance

Built
09-01-2005, 02:00 AM
Alright heres my brand new workout plan, personally designed around my hectic schedule:

Day 1 - Sunday - Chest/Back
- Flat bench DB chest press, 2 sets x 10 - 12
- Db Chest Flys, 2 sets x 10 - 12
- Cable Lat Pulldown 2 sets x 10 - 12
- Cable Row 2 sets x 10 - 12
- Deadlifts 2 sets x 10 - 12
- Back Extension, 2 sets x 10 - 12 (Might change this)

Start with the deads. Then the chins. These are the heaviest compound lifts.

Also, for deads, never do long sets. Your lower back will fatigue. You'll do better with sets of no more than 5 reps for deads.



Cardio: 5 mins pre workout warm up and 25 mins post workout HIITon cross trainer (1 min HI alteranted with 1 min low intensity)

If you can do 25 minutes of HIIT, I'll be SHOCKED. I can do 8 minutes of alternating 30 second sprints with 30 second walks, and I'm ready to PUKE. And I'm in VERY good shape.

5 minutes of warmup, 6-8 minutes of 30-second intervals, and 8 minutes of fast incline walking at the end to burn off the mobilized FFAs is ALL you need to do for HIIT. The sprints should be flat-out HAMMERS - somewhere around 80% of your fastest sprint you can manage.



Day 2 Monday-Cardio 30 min on treadmill and abs: - Decline crunches 2 x 10 - 12 (with weights)
- Cable Pulldowns 2 x 10 - 12
- Bicycle 2 sets x 1 min
Always do your work BEFORE your cardio. Abs are no exception.

Day 3 Tuesday - Rest

Day 4 Wednesday - Arms (Bicep/Triceps and shouldars)
- Seates DB shouldar Press 2 x 10 - 12
- Lateral DB Raises 2 x 10 - 12
- Rear Delt on Machine 2 x 10 - 12
Bicep/ Tricep supersets:
- Skullcrushers 2 x 10 - 12
- seated Bicep DB Curls 2 x 10 - 12
- Rope Pulldown 2 x 10 - 12
- Cable Curls 2 x 10 - 12
Cardio: 30 mins on bike HIITsee earlier note on HIIT


Day 5 Thurday - Rest

Day 6 Friday - Legs
- Squats 2 x 10 - 12
- Deadlifts 2 x 10 - 12what kind of deadlifts are you doing here? You just did deadlifts for back. Do you mean RDLs here? (say yes :) )

- Leg Curls 2 x 10 - 12
- Leg Extension 2 x 10 - 12
- Calf raises (alterante weekly btwn standing and seated) 2 x 10 - 12
Seated hits soleus. This is a slow-twitch muscle, and needs longer rep ranges - 15-20 reps is fine. Be sure to pause for at least 2 seconds at the bottom of EACH rep. The achilles tendon is extremely elastic, and will absorb too much of the work to let the calf do the job.

Standing hits gastrocs - fast twitch. Lower rep ranges here, short and HEAVY. Again, pause for several seconds at the bottom of EACH REP.


Cardio - 30 mins on cross-trainer cut this down to 20 minutes. Leg day should be hard enough to leave you WIPED. 3.5 MPH walk at a fast incline will do you good, especially after working the calves.


Day 7 Saturday Rest - possible 20 - 30 mins cardio if I feel like it and have time.

Alright now heres the thing. Should I add leg press to my leg workouts I think the squats take enough out of them as it is? Also I think the 10 - 12 with very heavy weights (fatigue at that number) has worked really well for me before on a cut so I will use it again? Cardio has gone down but my general activity will be going up.
Any suggestions tips etc.

10-12 rep ranges are inappropriate for cutting. These are HYPERTROPHY ranges. You will do better in this rep range on a BULK.

If you can do this many reps on a cut, you aren't working hard enough to hold LBM. You'll more likely catabolize it.

If you haven't read the article by Joel Marion, read it again. Low reps with high weight are less likely to build size, and more likely to create that mythical "toned" appearance: http://www.ruggedmag.com/index.php?type=Article&i=3&a=8

You are unlikely to get this effect by continuing to lift in the hypertrophy ranges you mention. Those are for packing on size.

Don't think of weight training as a fat-burning activity. If you do, you'll have to think of it as a muscle-burning activity as well.

Let your diet create the caloric deficit. You really DO need the heavy weight-llifting protect your LBM (unless you're taking anabolics, at which point, you're ingesting your protection).

Oh, and the benefits of salt: http://chemo.net/sodium-.htm

I suggest creatine for cutting also, for the same reason. I take 5g post workout, 5g in the AM empty if it's a non-lifting day.

Built
09-01-2005, 02:02 AM
And you could toss in a few sets of low-foot-placement leg press after squats if you like.

dissipate
09-01-2005, 06:33 AM
your patience, determination and willingness to change impresses me FF.

cardio down and lifting 4x a week - i like!

Fitnessfreak
09-01-2005, 12:14 PM
Thanks for the info Built.

Dissipate - Thanks for the feedback. I'm just trying to stay open- minded and adjust as required.



Okay Heres my altered and updated diet. I need to have this down pat so I can get my stuff and shopping done before school!!

Meal 1 -
- 1 whole large Egg and 1 egg white (105)
- 1 yogurt (50)
- 1 serving oatmeal (120)
- 1 small Banana
Total protein 20g, 375 cals

Snack (btwn class)
- celery (20)
- 1.5 tbs natural peanut Butter (148)
- 1 apple (80)

Meal 2
- Nectarine (66)
- 2/3 cup low fat Cottage Cheese (98)

Meal 3
- 3 slices turkey breast on 2 pieces ww bread (232) (includes lettuce and 1 Tbs light miracle whip dressing (32)
- 1 serving corn (80 cals) (or peas)

Meal 4
- 25 pces mixed nuts (207)
- 1 nectarine (66)
- 0.5 cup cottage cheese (80)

Meal 5
- 150 g cooked chicken (200 cals)
- 1 cup mixed vegtables (100)
- 4 cups lettuce (22), with 1/2 tbs olive oil (60) and 1 tbs lemon juice (5)

Evening Snack:
- 1 cup light carnation hot chocolate (45) or one cup of hot cocoa with water (16)
- Constant cups of green tea.

Total calories: 1794, Fat 64g (32%:7g TF, 13 sat, 14 poly, 30 mono), Protein 126g(30%), Carbs 194g 38% (30g Fibre)


Might adjust location of my morning snack to night time, it depends on how hungry I am at night once school starts.

Built
09-01-2005, 12:18 PM
This looks much, MUCH better.

:)

Fitnessfreak
09-01-2005, 01:15 PM
Thanks for your help built. The fact that I got your approval is awesome.

Built my exercises are all compound to isolated, they are not completly organized yet. I really like that article you gave me so much goody information and well backed up. I'm moving down to 8 - 10 reps better then the 12- 15 I'm doing now, I'll go lower if I need more tweaking later on!!
I also still need to adjust individual exercises to different repititions, my gym does not have a seated calf raises right now do you know of other calf exercises I can do to hit the soleus muscle(I was thinking of sitting on a chair with a couple plates on my lap). I'll do 15 - 20 for standing (I usually do in this range right now with great results)


Always do your work BEFORE your cardio. Abs are no exception.

Yes this is something I recommend to everyone as well, I've heard tons of arguuments about this and it varies depending on goals, but I'm glad you back me up here.

As for the cardio, I usually can do about 20 minutes (sometimes less) at the track or on the treadmill. But on things like the bike and the cross trainer I am able to go on longer (30 - 40 mins). The time varies depending on the equipment I'm using. Sometimes if I'm exhausted (post legs) I just do a low intensity cardio level (no HIIT on leg days, I can't walk the next day).


Okay heres a updated exercise plan:

Day 1 - Sunday - Chest/Back
- Deadlifts 2 sets x 6 - 8
- Chins 2 sets x 4 - 6 (1 set on cable and other set is body - grip)
- Flat bench DB chest press, 2 sets x 6 - 8
- Cable Lat Pulldown 2 sets x 8 - 10
- Cable Row 2 sets x 8 - 10
- Back Extension, 2 sets x 8 - 10
- Db Chest Flys, 2 sets x 8 - 10
Cardio: 25 mins on cross trainer

Day 2 Monday- Cardio/Abs

Abs
- Decline crunches 2 x 10 - 12 (with weights)
- Cable Pulldowns 2 x 10 - 12
- Bicycle 2 sets x 1 min
- Cardio 20 - 30 min at the track or on bike

Day 3 Tuesday Rest

Day 4 Wednesday - Arms (Bicep/Triceps and shouldars)
- Seates DB shouldar Press 2 x 8 - 10
- Lateral DB Raises 2 x 8 - 10
- Rear Delt on Machine 2 x 8 - 10
Bicep/ Tricep supersets:
- Skullcrushers 2 x 8 - 10
- seated Bicep DB Curls 2 x 8 - 10
- Rope Pulldown 2 x 8 - 10
- Cable Curls 2 x 8 - 10
Cardio: 30 mins on bike HIIT

Day 5 - Thursday: Rest

Day 6 - Friday: Legs
- Squats 2 x 8 - 10
- Romanion Deadlifts 2 x 6 - 12 ;) (Built I need to know how to properly do these)
- Leg Curls 2 x 8 - 10
- Leg Extension 2 x 8 - 10
- Calf raises Standing 1 x 15 - 20, seated( If possible) 1 set x 6 - 8
Cardio - 30 mins on cross-trainer

Day 7 - Rest: I might do 20 - 30 mins cardio at the track if I have time and feel like it.

Built
09-01-2005, 01:30 PM
6-8 for standing.

15-20 for SEATED.

Cylint
09-01-2005, 03:49 PM
Fitnessfreak-

I'm a little late but I have a thought about why you feel sick when on low carbs. I have tried on and off to use ephedra based products and without fail they make me feel bad. But, the last time I tried to take ephedra regularly I was also on a lower carb-ish diet. It made me dizzy, naseaus, and generally felt like total crap. When I upped my carbs it evened me out and made me feel better. But then I got to thinking if I needed to up my carbs(and calories) that much just to take ephedra(to try and lose weight) then I might as well quit taking the ephedra and eat normally. Was a good decision for me. So the gist of it is that it could be the ephedra that messes with you when you go 'low carb'.

Built
09-01-2005, 07:40 PM
I do lower carbs with ephedrine with no problems.

Not saying this ISN'T it, but it isn't NECESSARILY it.

I think a LOT of people run into problems on lower carbs because they leave their fats too low.

It seems to be a very common error.

Fitnessfreak
09-03-2005, 04:58 PM
Wow!!

Heres my training today I started the program and diet and boy do I feel good:

Day 1- Chest/Back
- Deadlifts: 135 x 8, 145 x 6
- Chin ups: I was only able to do 2.5 bodywt chin ups (1 set, I'm 142 lbs), Also did 4.5 x 135lbs cable pulldown chins. Hopefully I can do more once my weight goes down.
- DB Chest press flat Bench, 40lb/side x 10, 42.5 x 8
- Lat pulldown, 90lbs x 10, 95lbs x 8
- Back cable Row, 90lbs x 10, 100lbs x 8.
- Chest Flys(cable machine), 110 x 10, 112.5 x 8.
- Back Extension (OMIT) - I don't need this the deadlifts completly hammered the heck of my back and this is just no longer required in my back workout.

- Cardio HIIT Cross- Trainer. 1 min high intensity, 1 min rest x 10, + 10 min low intensity. Total 30 mins cardio.

Diet was right on track I never realized how good cottage cheese tastes after a hardcore workout. I also got the attention of every single guy in the gym, they were gathering around to watch me (there were only about 10 ppl there), How weird. Now I have to go back to the same gym to work!!

TTT
09-03-2005, 05:08 PM
They were probably watching because..... You're pretty strong. Very nice work.

Built
09-03-2005, 05:12 PM
There are NOT a whole lot of women who use free weights and train hard in a weight room.

Nice work.

:)

PowerManDL
09-03-2005, 06:08 PM
6-8 for standing.

15-20 for SEATED.

This isn't necessarily a set-in-stone rule. True it can be effective, but as long as you're getting something in each rep range for the calves overall, and making sure to hit some work with the knee both flexed and extended, it's not that big a deal.

Making sure to include the 2-count pause is really *the* key when it comes to calf training.

Built
09-03-2005, 06:46 PM
Agreed - it's not set in stone.

But I was offering guidelines based on fast vs slow twitch predominance. fitnessfreak got it backward from my earlier suggestion, and I don't think she meant to.

PowerManDL
09-03-2005, 06:57 PM
Ah.

Then again, as I always say....train for goals, not for fibers.

;)

Built
09-03-2005, 07:01 PM
I say we start a campaign for the rights of fibers.

Stand up for the fibers, I say!