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noahfor123
09-22-2005, 11:09 PM
I just started doing a westside style routine this week, and I just had a question about Squat/Deadlift day.

I picked deadlifts for my first max effort exercise because I am comfortable with them, and like them. For the accessory exercise I am doing 3x6 SLDL. For the ab work 3x6 kneeling cable cruches. I've substituted pull throughs for reverse hypers due to lack of equipment, 3x6.

Between the deadlifts, SLDL, and pull throughs it seems like the same motion is being done alot. Is this a problem?

Should the crunches be done facing towards or away from the pulley, or doesn't it matter?

My Max Effort sets looked like this.

135x3
155x3
185x3
205x3
225x1
245x1
255x1

Are there any problems with any of that? Are quads ever targeted in the accessory excercise. I also am doing calf raises. My max effort bench day comes before max effort squat day, not the other way around like in Dave Tate's periodization bible. Is that a problem? I am trying to build some size too. Will this work?

Thanks for your help.

PowerManDL
09-22-2005, 11:17 PM
Why are you doing Westside when your max deadlift is only 255?

noahfor123
09-22-2005, 11:34 PM
I like the idea of working on a one rep max every week. I like the fact that its constantly changing. I like the idea of following a routine designed by someone who knows what they are doing. It's something fun that keeps me going to the gym. Is there a reason not to do it. Will I not make gains. Would I make better gains using a different routine.

drew
09-23-2005, 07:06 AM
What do you weigh, how long have you been training, what are your goals?

noahfor123
09-23-2005, 09:39 AM
150 lbs. On and off for three years, but probably only 8 months of training throughout those three years. My goal is to be stronger every week, and to keep going to the gym for a long period of time. If there is some other program with which I will make better gains then I'll do that.

drew
09-23-2005, 12:28 PM
Try the WBB routine #1 on the main page of this site. Eat a ton. You'll get plenty stronger plenty fast.

Because you're relatively new to this, you'll be very likely to get hurt doing a Westside style program. Westside is also based on really knowing your own body and adapting the training to accommodate for your weaknesses. If you haven't been trainnig seriously for a long time, you won't be able to figure this out.

Your best bet is to train hard, eat a lot, learn a lot and get as big and strong as you can.

noahfor123
09-23-2005, 03:39 PM
I did wbb1 for the 8 months that I worked out, and I was going to start doing this for a change of pace. What if instead of working up to a one rep max I work up to a 3 rep max? Would that lower the chances of me hurting myself? Then, instead of picking different areas to work on with accessory exercises, I just work quads hams and lower back every squat day, and lats delts triceps every bench day?

PowerManDL
09-23-2005, 05:14 PM
It's not about hurting yourself as much as you jumping into a program that's not designed for novice lifters.

jack_of_all
09-23-2005, 06:05 PM
It's not about hurting yourself as much as you jumping into a program that's not designed for novice lifters.


playing with westside never did anything but make my lifts go down, listen to powerman on this one, he's right.

some day i intend to go back to it, but not until ive overcome a lot more of my strength defecit.

noahfor123
09-23-2005, 06:22 PM
It's not about hurting yourself as much as you jumping into a program that's not designed for novice lifters.

Are you saying it won't work for novice lifters, or that it won't work as well for novice lifters as something else, or that it will work for novice lifters, but they shouldn't use it because it wasn't designed with them in mind?

What about westside for skinny bastards?

PowerManDL
09-23-2005, 06:23 PM
I'm saying it's pointless for a novice lifter. How can you actually misconstrue a statement like that?

PowerManDL
09-23-2005, 06:26 PM
For more context:

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do;jsessionid=4ED85B19CE9A221F948A3D0BBA6E5F3B.ba08?article=288ba2

The relevant points from this:



Stick to the Basics and Bust Ass!

You've just read about the dynamic and max effort methods and are excited to get rolling. Problem is you just began training six months ago and look like a beanpole. Still, you feel this is the best way to train for strength and have heard many other people say the same. Well, you've done the research and have read all the articles, but you've still missed the boat.

Yes, you can use these methods, but only when they're implemented into a program based around your weaknesses. Now follow me here for a minute. What really is your weakness? Is it your hamstrings? Triceps? Or could it be that your entire body needs to be built up?

A beginner doesn't need to start with advanced training principles. He needs to first build a solid foundation with basic movements.


Need to Gain Weight? Eat!

I know I'll catch hell for this, but you need to have walked in my shoes to know where I'm going with this one. You have to have seen what I've seen over the past few years.

How many times have I looked at someone and said, "You have to get bigger because you canít flex bone." If you can feel bone in your upper arms, shoulders, upper legs and lats, then yes, you need to gain some fast mass!

I'm not a nutritional guru by any stretch, but I do know when someone needs to freakin' eat! I donít care what it is, just eat it and keep eating until you begin to grow. There are tons of articles here at T-mag. Read them and get to eating.

But Dave, you may say, if I gain weight I wonít be as strong in the next weight class! Listen man, you're 6'2" and 145 pounds. Just how many lifters are 6'2" in any weight class under 275? What came first, the muscle or the strength? I'll agree a huge amount of muscle mass my not be needed to lift huge weights, but come on, 6'2", 145 pounds? Eat something!

noahfor123
09-23-2005, 06:53 PM
I'm saying it's pointless for a novice lifter. How can you actually misconstrue a statement like that?

I didn't misconstrue that statement. There is a difference between misunderstanding a statement and wanting to know what makes the statement true. Thanks for the article though. I'll try something else.

Sensei
09-23-2005, 11:09 PM
WS is a great program. Dave Tate's article about beginners is a classic. Read it, read it again, then reread it one more time.

My thoughts: You will probably gain off of WS, but if you are a novice (or even an intermediate), and your goals center around increasing the big three, then you would probably be much better off sticking with something that will have you doing the three lifts more. Bands are great, but they really aren't necessary or preferable for beginning to intermediate lifters. A speed day (DE day) is probably not what you need right now.

Will it hurt you? Probably not. Is it the best approach for you? Probably not.

To address some of your original questions: I would add some variety at least to your exercises, instead of doing three different kinds of deadlifts in one workout. Quads will get more work w. different kinds of squats (high bar, front, narrow stance, etc.).

I think you will find that doing the bench ME workout before the squat ME workout will (at least seem to be) harder on your shoulders and elbows - also, if I do bench then squatting, it will affect my squatting performance a lot more than the opposite case. A tired upper body will make it harder for me to maintain proper upper body tightness when squatting heavy weights.

Westside Made Easy: http://johnnymnemonic.proboards44.com/index.cgi?board=Articles&action=display&thread=1117919547

noahfor123
09-24-2005, 01:16 AM
Thanks for the help. Do you have a link to the article on beginners or know where I could find it? If anyone feels like it, posting suggestion for a better routine focusing on power for a beginner or directing me to such a routine would be greatly appreciated, but if not then I stil appreciate all your help.

Sensei
09-24-2005, 07:27 AM
I was referring to the article that PowerManDL posted a link to. It's a great one.

Paul Stagg
09-24-2005, 07:34 AM
I think you can take the basic idea of training squat/dead twice a week and training bench twice a week, and go from there.

Conjugated periodization is all about finding your weaknesses and fixing them. As a beginner, your weakness is... weakness. :)

You need to work on your form, you need to gain weight, you need to get stronger all over.

I would do something like this:

Monday:
'ME' squat/dead
Alternate squats and deadlifts (variations if you want, but I wouldn't bother), working up to 5s, 3s and singles, keeping records for each.
Front squat, zercher squat, leg press, something like that
Direct hamstring work (leg curl, GHR, etc)
Low back
abs

Weds:
'ME' Bench
Bench (or variant if you want) work up to 5s, 3s, singles, keep records.
DB bench or incline bench
Row
shoulders (press or raise)

Friday
'DE' squat (not really)
10 sets of 2 at 70% of max or so (add a couple pounds each week in 3 or 4 week waves). (Lots of first reps, work on form) You can use a box if you want, but I would not to start - make sure you learn how to squat well.
Deadlifts 6 singles @ 70%.
Heavy hamstrings (good morning, SLDL, RDL)
Shrug
Low back
abs

Sunday:
'DE' Bench
5x5 using submaximal weights
close grips or lockouts or high board press
Pullup or chin
rear delts

Add in and take out stuff as you go - you may want to do some curls on Wednesday or Sunday, you may want to do calf raises on Monday - whatever. The key is that you try to break a record on your 'ME' Days, and learn how to perform the lifts.

Do this for 6 months (changing things enough to keep from getting bored), and see where you stand. You'd probably then be ready to consider the WSB 9 week beginner program, and you'll certainly be in a better position to determine what you need to work on. This is just one option, though - there are lots of ways to train to get where you need to go.

noahfor123
09-25-2005, 10:17 PM
Thanks alot. I will try that out. Just one question: On ME lift do I work up to a 5 then 3 then 1 all in one day, or a 5 one day, 3 some other day, 1 some other day?

Paul Stagg
09-26-2005, 07:54 AM
Separate days.

Stick with 5's at first.