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Spartan936
09-29-2005, 08:49 PM
Anyone see any drawbacks in using large amounts of milk during a bulk? Honestly, I've always been paranoid as far as processed food goes (pastuerized in this case), and I'm concerned about the stories of milk being a cause of allergies, asthma, and mucus, as well as being filled with bacteria and pus. I realize these fears are overblown for the most part.

I'm talking a half gallon a day or more. It would seem like a perfectly good idea, because it so loaded nutrient-wise, and I know many others are big fans of the white stuff (chris mason comes to mind.) When I searched wbb I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for.... so I posted.

So, healthwise, is milk yay or nay? Opinions and experiences appreciated. :)

Jorge Sanchez
09-29-2005, 09:17 PM
I drink about 3L of milk everyday. No complaints so far.

ddegroff
09-29-2005, 09:47 PM
I drink SKim like no other. Its awesome cals and goes down nice and easy. I take my vitamins with milk, i drink milk at breakfast, i drink milk at dinner, and any other time i find myself at the fridge. Also i drink some before i go to bed. I love it.

smalls
09-29-2005, 10:11 PM
1.5 gallons of skim a day and have had no problems. Been doing this for years while bulking.

TTT
09-29-2005, 10:28 PM
.....as well as being filled with bacteria and pus. I realize these fears are overblown for the most part.
Pasteurized milk has some bacteria in it, but it's not going to have anything 'bad' in it unless it's a bad batch. As for pus.... if the dairy farm has high cell counts from things like mastitis, the milk's generally either rejected, or it's used for something else anyway.


I'm talking a half gallon a day or more.
This actually isn't that much :D

AzBboy
09-29-2005, 10:43 PM
''Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.'' haha

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
09-29-2005, 11:37 PM
''Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.'' hahaUm...

rhett2go
09-30-2005, 05:27 AM
Anyone see any drawbacks in using large amounts of milk during a bulk? Honestly, I've always been paranoid as far as processed food goes (pastuerized in this case), and I'm concerned about the stories of milk being a cause of allergies, asthma, and mucus, as well as being filled with bacteria and pus. I realize these fears are overblown for the most part.

I'm talking a half gallon a day or more. It would seem like a perfectly good idea, because it so loaded nutrient-wise, and I know many others are big fans of the white stuff (chris mason comes to mind.) When I searched wbb I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for.... so I posted.

So, healthwise, is milk yay or nay? Opinions and experiences appreciated. :)

pastuerization is a "process" but doesnt necessarily make the milk "processed"

it is simply heating the milk to 63 degrees C for 30 minutes or 72 degrees C for 16 seconds. nothing is added like other processed foods (preservitaves and chemicals to enhance flavor and so on) except a little vitamin A and D. i like 2%; 5g fat 12g carb and 8g protein in 1 cup. just cant handle the skim milk taste. (like a flat beer lol)
it also makes a protein shake go down realllll good.

getfit
09-30-2005, 05:58 AM
milk does the body good :)

Guido
09-30-2005, 09:31 AM
''Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.'' hahaThat's it. You're dead. Nobody makes fun of teh MILKZ!!!ONE!1ONE!! :shoot:

ShockBoxer
09-30-2005, 09:49 AM
I'm up to two glasses a day instead of two glasses a week. When I was a teen I'd knock back a liter or more a day (and sit on my ass all day getting fat).

Healthy fat, healthy carbs, and 8 grams of protein a glass. It's an awesome supplement. :)

AzBboy
09-30-2005, 10:40 AM
haha although I do rarely drink milk, I do love the stuff. That was an Arnold quote, I thought at least SOMEONE would catch on!

DannyboyXJ
09-30-2005, 11:05 AM
haha although I do rarely drink milk, I do love the stuff. That was an Arnold quote, I thought at least SOMEONE would catch on!

Ditto w/ the Arnold quote.

CarlP
09-30-2005, 11:52 AM
Anyone see any drawbacks in using large amounts of milk during a bulk? Honestly, I've always been paranoid as far as processed food goes (pastuerized in this case), and I'm concerned about the stories of milk being a cause of allergies, asthma, and mucus, as well as being filled with bacteria and pus. I realize these fears are overblown for the most part.

I'm talking a half gallon a day or more. It would seem like a perfectly good idea, because it so loaded nutrient-wise, and I know many others are big fans of the white stuff (chris mason comes to mind.) When I searched wbb I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for.... so I posted.

So, healthwise, is milk yay or nay? Opinions and experiences appreciated. :)

I drink 3/4 gallon per day. Tell me more about this mucus...

lifter4life
09-30-2005, 12:32 PM
i get wicked loogies (sp?) when i drink lots of milk. is that a bad thing?

spencerjrus
09-30-2005, 02:10 PM
i get wicked loogies (sp?) when i drink lots of milk. is that a bad thing?


Not unless mucus bothers you.


I've been drinking 2+ gallons of whole milk a day since I started lifting, its pretty nice, I've seen absolutely no health problems whatsoever. I do only drink organic milk though, your mileage may vary.

The really great thing about whole milk is its basically liquid meat, it has good carb/fat and protein content, excellent calories, and its delicious.

Spartan936
09-30-2005, 02:12 PM
lol, thanks for the input guys.

Apparently milk actually does thicken the mucus produced by the body for a time, but it doesn't cause more to be produced. I don't see how this could be harmful though. This could explain the loogies, lifter4life.

The bodybuilders of old drank the stuff like water. So I suppose we should too.

I'm drinking some right now. :alcoholic

spencerjrus
10-01-2005, 12:58 AM
The bodybuilders of old drank the stuff like water. So I suppose we should too.



I've actually heard of bodybuilders in other countries that use milk for 80%+ of their total calories.

basix
10-01-2005, 02:50 AM
I love milk, one of the few bulking foods that I enjoy eating. Can drink it all day without getting sick of it.

spencerjrus
10-01-2005, 12:23 PM
I love milk, one of the few bulking foods that I enjoy eating. Can drink it all day without getting sick of it.



Ya this is one thing I have always been sort of curious about, there is no other food I could eat even close to the same amount as milk without wanting to vomit at the mere sight of it. Any ideas on this?

Anthony
10-01-2005, 02:00 PM
I drink 4L/day while bulking - usually 2%, but I have used whole milk in the past. Makes it a lot easier to get all my calories.

CarlP
10-02-2005, 09:31 AM
I drink 4L/day while bulking - usually 2%, but I have used whole milk in the past. Makes it a lot easier to get all my calories.

Does whole milk taste any different than 1 or 2%? I'm sure you couldn't tell the difference with whey powder in it anyway right?

Anthony
10-02-2005, 09:40 AM
It's a bit thicker, but it's still good. And yeah, you can barely tell a diff with nitrean + oats in it anyway.

Spartan936
10-02-2005, 10:11 AM
pfft.

Well, if Anthony's drinking, then I have to.

Had a gallon yesterday. Whole.

It was tasty.

spencerjrus
10-02-2005, 12:07 PM
pfft.

Well, if Anthony's drinking, then I have to.

Had a gallon yesterday. Whole.

It was tasty.



Indeed, I've never understood people who drink anything other than whole milk. Lowfat tastes and has the consistency of water to me. To each his own though.

Optimum08
10-02-2005, 05:51 PM
im allergic to whole milk (my body can't digest it, and i get massive stomach cramps and such after i drink it), and i've been brought up on skim so thats all i know, and it tastes delicious to me...

Anthony
10-02-2005, 05:55 PM
Indeed, I've never understood people who drink anything other than whole milk. Lowfat tastes and has the consistency of water to me. To each his own though.

While I think whole milk is perfectly fine, it's easier to control macronutrients by switching to something different.

spencerjrus
10-02-2005, 05:58 PM
While I think whole milk is perfectly fine, it's easier to control macronutrients by switching to something different.


Of course you are right, I was speaking more in terms of people who drink lowfat or skim from a taste perspective, as opposed to people who actually need to drink lowfat/skim for dietary reasons.

Jorge Sanchez
10-02-2005, 06:00 PM
Indeed, I've never understood people who drink anything other than whole milk. Lowfat tastes and has the consistency of water to me. To each his own though.

I don't like whole milk. I think it is too thick and creamy. I prefer 1 or 2%.

spencerjrus
10-02-2005, 06:02 PM
I don't like whole milk. I think it is too thick and creamy. I prefer 1 or 2%.


Haha ya I've heard that from quite a few people, I grew up drinking raw milk though so homogenized/pasteurized whole milk is still the 'lite' version to me lol.

getfit
10-02-2005, 07:22 PM
i actually like drinking goats milk as well, you all might find it gross but it's quite tasty.

fat2fit
10-03-2005, 05:49 AM
I've always drunk lots of milk but i never used to drink skimmed as it tastes so watery, i used to drink semi-skimmed (same as US 2% milk?), but since my local shop started getting organic milk i started drinking skimmed, i find the organic milk tastes creamier and so the skimmed is quite drinkable (and it only costs about 2p more per pint).

And, it's what Ian Rush drinks. (for those of you in the UK)

muscleup
10-03-2005, 10:23 AM
My dad always bought whole milk for as long as I can remember.
I currently switch between 2% and whole every week. The 2% weeks are mainly for my GF so she can eat her cereal. She isn't a big milk person, and she think whole is too thick to use for cereal. (she doesn't drink the milk after eating the cereal either), now that I think about it, she doesn't ever "drink" milk...

The liquid meat comment was funny...and 'oh so true :D

wrestlemaniac
10-04-2005, 01:31 AM
im allergic to whole milk (my body can't digest it, and i get massive stomach cramps and such after i drink it), and i've been brought up on skim so thats all i know, and it tastes delicious to me...


woah, you can drink skim? doesn't it have lactose in it?

Nito
10-04-2005, 11:13 AM
Is the protein in milk denatured? I hear this everywhere.

ddegroff
10-04-2005, 11:48 AM
''Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.'' haha
Ah... good old Arnie, everytime i drink milk i think about that comment. Only a German could pull that off. haha

JeremyHatt
10-04-2005, 10:50 PM
Milk isn't really denatured, in reply to your question. Vitamin D and A aren't added, they're "re-inforced". Basically, when the milk is pasturized it looses some of the vitamins, so they put them back in.

Btw, I drink alot of milk, being a dairy farmer, and I'd say I drink almost 2.5litres a day... which turns out to be around 70+grams of protein. (In 250ml of 2% theres 8 grams of protein) Its great. Drink milk. lol

benfsu03
10-07-2005, 01:50 PM
bro ur a 125lbs i dont think milk alone is gonna help u out

benfsu03
10-07-2005, 01:51 PM
Ah... good old Arnie, everytime i drink milk i think about that comment. Only a German could pull that off. haha

hes not german u ******, hes austrian

spencerjrus
10-07-2005, 03:51 PM
hes not german u ******, hes austrian


Thanks for the info, I had no idea germany and austria were actually different countries.

gettinjackT
10-07-2005, 10:29 PM
Milk is great for bulking, but unfortunately not that good for your health. Raw milk is better, not always easy to get though. If you're gonna drink a lot, I'd definately go with organic, all those hormones and antibiotics can really add up.

Spartan936
10-08-2005, 12:41 PM
Milk is great for bulking, but unfortunately not that good for your health. Raw milk is better, not always easy to get though. If you're gonna drink a lot, I'd definately go with organic, all those hormones and antibiotics can really add up.


That's what I was kind of thinking.


www.notmilk.com :eek: Some good arguments here, some fanaticism.

spencerjrus
10-08-2005, 01:10 PM
That's what I was kind of thinking.


www.notmilk.com :eek: Some good arguments here , some fanaticism.


What, the articles saying that milk causes cancer? I drink 730 gallons a year, according to the site I should have cancer well before the age of 30, I can't wait.

getfit
10-08-2005, 01:18 PM
What, the articles saying that milk causes cancer? I drink 730 gallons a year, according to the site I should have cancer well before the age of 30, I can't wait.
I SHOULD BE DEAD by now then :rolleyes:

russ
10-08-2005, 04:18 PM
"Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or complex carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and cholesterol. They are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart disease, cancer, and other diseases.

The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on child care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, saying it can cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and in the long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, America's number one cause of death."

MMMMMM... milk

Spartan936
10-08-2005, 04:46 PM
I believe most of these stated negative side effects of milk (asthma, heart disease, diabetes, etc...) are simply because it is high in calories and saturated fat. For the majority of lazy, chubby america, milk probably isn't a good idea, and might help cause these things.

I would say most of the concepts on that website don't apply to us, because we exercise and count calories, and we're just plain cooler than everyone else.

cphafner
10-08-2005, 04:57 PM
Nothing wrong with using milk to add some calories to your diet, but there is a lot of sugar in milk, and it will cause (atleast in me) stomach bloat.

smalls
10-08-2005, 05:29 PM
LOL@the notmilk bull****. This and many other "health" concerns have been discussed many times. Lets not get too carried away with a bunch of opinion spouted as fact.

Invain
10-08-2005, 08:22 PM
Milk causing health problems has gotta be on my top ten list of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

I wonder why god created women with the ability to produce milk for babies. It's the only thing they eat for the first few months of their lives, so yeah, it's really bad for us.

gettinjackT
10-08-2005, 10:58 PM
Milk causing health problems has gotta be on my top ten list of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

I wonder why god created women with the ability to produce milk for babies. It's the only thing they eat for the first few months of their lives, so yeah, it's really bad for us.


Um, there is a HUGE difference between human milk and cow's milk. Each species of mammal produces its unique type of milk designed specifically to strengthen the immune system and provide nourishment for their babies. Therefore, human milk is designed for human babies. Cow's milk is designed for calves. It is not natural to drink milk after infancy, especially from another species.

There is NOTHING in pasteurized cow's milk that is good for the human body. Large amounts of difficult to digest proteins(casein), undigestable sugars(lactose), and pasteurization removes all of the healthy enzymes including phosphatase which is necessary for calcium absorbtion. Therefore, believe it or not, milk is not even a good source of calcium.

Again, for bulking, it works well. It has calories. All in all it is a trade-off, I eat foods that are bad for me sometimes when bulking. I just try to keep it to a minimum.

smalls
10-09-2005, 12:14 AM
There is NOTHING in pasteurized cow's milk that is good for the human body. Large amounts of difficult to digest proteins(casein), undigestable sugars(lactose), and pasteurization removes all of the healthy enzymes including phosphatase which is necessary for calcium absorbtion. Therefore, believe it or not, milk is not even a good source of calcium.




You dont even have the slightest grasp of what you are saying. You clearly dont understand nutrition or it's impact on the human body. Please dont restate bull**** you have read on the internet.

russ
10-09-2005, 12:46 AM
You dont even have the slightest grasp of what you are saying. You clearly dont understand nutrition or it's impact on the human body. Please dont restate bull**** you have read on the internet.

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with that one.

smalls
10-09-2005, 01:34 AM
There is NOTHING in pasteurized cow's milk that is good for the human body. Large amounts of difficult to digest proteins(casein), undigestable sugars(lactose), and pasteurization removes all of the healthy enzymes including phosphatase which is necessary for calcium absorbtion. Therefore, believe it or not, milk is not even a good source of calcium.

Again, for bulking, it works well. It has calories. All in all it is a trade-off, I eat foods that are bad for me sometimes when bulking. I just try to keep it to a minimum.

Ok, let me try to be less of a dick about that.
Lactose is not undigestable(not really a word). Some people have a harder time than others digesting it, but even they can take enzymes. Casien is not difficult to digest. More difficult than whey maybe.

Also saying something has NOTHING good for the human body, then stating how good it is for bulking is just plain dumb. I understand what was trying to be said, but it doesnt change the fact that what was said was dumb.

I would doubt there is anyone here who has much to worry about in the way of calium intake, so lets keep it relevant.

Spartan936
10-09-2005, 10:21 AM
http://www.westonaprice.org/men/splendidspecimens.html

Here's a cool article about the history of nutrition in bodybuilding. And I'll tell you, they liked their milk.

gettinjackT
10-09-2005, 11:28 AM
Ok, let me try to be less of a dick about that.
Lactose is not undigestable(not really a word). Some people have a harder time than others digesting it, but even they can take enzymes. Casien is not difficult to digest. More difficult than whey maybe.

Also saying something has NOTHING good for the human body, then stating how good it is for bulking is just plain dumb. I understand what was trying to be said, but it doesnt change the fact that what was said was dumb.

I would doubt there is anyone here who has much to worry about in the way of calium intake, so lets keep it relevant.


Lol, relax.........maybe I meant indigestable, the "i" and the "u" are quite close on the keyboard. Lactose cannot be metabolized without the enzyme lactase, which many people do not produce enough of. Most mammals lose the ability to effectively digest milk sugar after infancy. However, humans have been drinking milk after infancy for some time now. Therefore, some have developed the ability to produce enough lactase, but many still don't. So i stand corrected, there are SOME humans who can effectively metabolize lactose.


I don't think it is dumb at all to say that something is not good for the human body, but at the same time is good for bulking. Overeating to gain weight is not exactly healthy.

The only reason I mentioned calcium is because many people still believe that milk is the best(or only) source of calcium, but because of pasteurization, it is definately not. However, raw milk is a good source of calcium.

And yes, casein is very difficult to digest. It will sit in the intestines far longer than our normal feeding interval. This is why it is a good protein(speaking as a bodybuilder) for before bed. Again, I am not saying it is healthy, but it has a purpose for bodybuilding. Sometimes bodybuilding is not the healthiest lifestyle, however, it IS much healthier than the average persons' lifestyle.

smalls
10-09-2005, 01:06 PM
And yes, casein is very difficult to digest. It will sit in the intestines far longer than our normal feeding interval. This is why it is a good protein(speaking as a bodybuilder) for before bed. Again, I am not saying it is healthy, but it has a purpose for bodybuilding. Sometimes bodybuilding is not the healthiest lifestyle, however, it IS much healthier than the average persons' lifestyle.

You say "many" people cannot digest lactose, define many. And again even those people can supplement with the necassary enzyme. Even then why would this be unhealthy? Saying casein is difficult to digest may lead some to beleive it is iniffectective or that you get less out of it. Length of digestions is quite a different story.

And about your last statement. I highly doubt "real" bodybuilding is healthier than the average persons lifestyles. I'm not arguing health here, I could give a damn about that, I just dont like to see bull**** spewed without anything backing it up. There are a lot of youngsters here.

spencerjrus
10-09-2005, 01:44 PM
You say "many" people cannot digest lactose, define many. And again even those people can supplement with the necassary enzyme. Even then why would this be unhealthy? Saying casein is difficult to digest may lead some to beleive it is iniffectective or that you get less out of it. Length of digestions is quite a different story.

And about your last statement. I highly doubt "real" bodybuilding is healthier than the average persons lifestyles. I'm not arguing health here, I could give a damn about that, I just dont like to see bull**** spewed without anything backing it up. There are a lot of youngsters here.



I gotta agree with smalls here. You cant post opinions as fact and make claims about health risks when in reality there are no conclusive scientific studies linking milk to any real health risks.

gettinjackT
10-09-2005, 03:28 PM
You say "many" people cannot digest lactose, define many. And again even those people can supplement with the necassary enzyme. Even then why would this be unhealthy? Saying casein is difficult to digest may lead some to beleive it is iniffectective or that you get less out of it. Length of digestions is quite a different story.

And about your last statement. I highly doubt "real" bodybuilding is healthier than the average persons lifestyles. I'm not arguing health here, I could give a damn about that, I just dont like to see bull**** spewed without anything backing it up. There are a lot of youngsters here.


By many I mean around 30-50 million Americans do not produce enough lactase and are affected by lactose intolerance. In many other countries this statistic is much higher. You can check out these stats if you want.
Stats (http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/l/lactose_intolerance/stats.htm)
And yes, you can supplement with lactase, so I wouldn't completely rule out milk just because of a lactose intolerance.(for someone trying to bulk)

I never said anything about casein being ineffective for bodybuilding. I said numerous times that it is GOOD for bodybuilding. For someone trying to bulk up and not concerned about any of the health risks, by all means drink up. However, maybe you forgot, but the original question in this thread was asking about the HEALTH concerns of milk. I was answering the question from the original post. I don't give a damn if you care about health or not.

As for your last comment, I guess you agree with me that a bodybuilding lifestyle is not the healthiest. Assuming by "real" BBing you mean drug users, of course I was referring to a natural bodybuilder compared to the average lazy mcdonalds eating joe.



I gotta agree with smalls here. You cant post opinions as fact and make claims about health risks when in reality there are no conclusive scientific studies linking milk to any real health risks.

Numerous studies have been done linking milk to health risks. These include allergies and digestive problems among others.

Bruise Brubaker
10-09-2005, 04:00 PM
Pasteurized milk has a very high potential: become fermented and gain some enzymes back that way. Fermentation has been a very efficient conservation method in many cultures in the past, and is quite healthy in many circumstances.

gettinjackT
10-09-2005, 04:55 PM
Pasteurized milk has a very high potential: become fermented and gain some enzymes back that way. Fermentation has been a very efficient conservation method in many cultures in the past, and is quite healthy in many circumstances.

Well actually pasteurization prevents unwanted fermentation by killing the bateria in the milk. So I am not sure how that can be true. But yes, many cultures have fermented milk in the past and this has been a very sucessful method of preventing spoilage and it is does not damage the milk as pasteurization does. Fermented dairy products also contain beneficial probiotics which is very necessary for a healthy digestive system.

smalls
10-09-2005, 05:43 PM
By many I mean around 30-50 million Americans do not produce enough lactase and are affected by lactose intolerance. In many other countries this statistic is much higher. You can check out these stats if you want.
Stats (http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/l/lactose_intolerance/stats.htm)
And yes, you can supplement with lactase, so I wouldn't completely rule out milk just because of a lactose intolerance.(for someone trying to bulk)

I never said anything about casein being ineffective for bodybuilding. I said numerous times that it is GOOD for bodybuilding. For someone trying to bulk up and not concerned about any of the health risks, by all means drink up. However, maybe you forgot, but the original question in this thread was asking about the HEALTH concerns of milk. I was answering the question from the original post. I don't give a damn if you care about health or not.

As for your last comment, I guess you agree with me that a bodybuilding lifestyle is not the healthiest. Assuming by "real" BBing you mean drug users, of course I was referring to a natural bodybuilder compared to the average lazy mcdonalds eating joe.




Numerous studies have been done linking milk to health risks. These include allergies and digestive problems among others.

When people reduce their dairy intake over time this can lead to problems with the digestion of lactose because the lactase enzyme production is decreased. This problem alleviates itself (for most people) once dairy is consistent in a person diet. Almost anyone who has reduced dairy intake and then started up again understands this. Which is why your number is so rediculously high and unrealistic.

And about the studies you seem to beleive. You do realize the studies are horribly flawed due to the fact that they cannot remove many confounding variables that also effect the outcome. (which was already brought up in this thread)

gettinjackT
10-09-2005, 07:17 PM
When people reduce their dairy intake over time this can lead to problems with the digestion of lactose because the lactase enzyme production is decreased. This problem alleviates itself (for most people) once dairy is consistent in a person diet. Almost anyone who has reduced dairy intake and then started up again understands this. Which is why your number is so rediculously high and unrealistic.

And about the studies you seem to beleive. You do realize the studies are horribly flawed due to the fact that they cannot remove many confounding variables that also effect the outcome. (which was already brought up in this thread)

Yes, the first part of your post is true. Lactase production SHOULD be greater in people who consistently consume dairy. The stats I posted merely show the number of people who were diagnosed with lactose intolerance. So yes, maybe if some of these people consistently ate dairy it would alleviate their symptoms.

Still like I said earlier, the ability to metabolize lactose shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether you are going to drink milk or not. You can drink Lactaid milk(with the lactase enzyme added) or take an enzyme supplement. It doesn't change the fact that there are other components of milk that can be devastating to one's health(casein, hormones, antibiotics, pesticides, lack of enzymes). However, many of these components can be eliminated by drinking organic raw milk or organic raw milk fermented dairy products. If the large amounts of casein are not a problem for you then these types of dairy products may be beneficial to add to your diet.


And I don't know what you are talking about when you say, "You do realize the studies are horribly flawed due to the fact that they cannot remove many confounding variables that also effect the outcome" because I did not post or mention any specific studies. I just said that there are studies. Are you saying that all studies ever done on the nutritional aspects of milk are horribly flawed? Or just the ones that conclude that milk can cause health problems? What studies do you believe? The ones sponsored by the dairy industry?

Invain
10-09-2005, 07:19 PM
Getting jack, you can't seriously argue your whole case based on digestive problems with lactose. From the way you made it sound earlier, people would think that milk was worse than soda, and it should be avoided at all costs, unless your sole purpose for drinking it is to gain mass.

gettinjackT
10-09-2005, 07:27 PM
Getting jack, you can't seriously argue your whole case based on digestive problems with lactose. From the way you made it sound earlier, people would think that milk was worse than soda, and it should be avoided at all costs, unless your sole purpose for drinking it is to gain mass.

I haven't been arguing completely on lactose. As I stated above I think that lactose is the part of milk that you would have to worry about the least.


lol, well I don't think soda and milk can be compared. And soda doesn't even help with a bulk, so it is worse. :D

smalls
10-09-2005, 08:00 PM
Yes, the first part of your post is true. Lactase production SHOULD be greater in people who consistently consume dairy. The stats I posted merely show the number of people who were diagnosed with lactose intolerance. So yes, maybe if some of these people consistently ate dairy it would alleviate their symptoms.

Still like I said earlier, the ability to metabolize lactose shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether you are going to drink milk or not. You can drink Lactaid milk(with the lactase enzyme added) or take an enzyme supplement. It doesn't change the fact that there are other components of milk that can be devastating to one's health(casein, hormones, antibiotics, pesticides, lack of enzymes). However, many of these components can be eliminated by drinking organic raw milk or organic raw milk fermented dairy products. If the large amounts of casein are not a problem for you then these types of dairy products may be beneficial to add to your diet.


And I don't know what you are talking about when you say, "You do realize the studies are horribly flawed due to the fact that they cannot remove many confounding variables that also effect the outcome" because I did not post or mention any specific studies. I just said that there are studies. Are you saying that all studies ever done on the nutritional aspects of milk are horribly flawed? Or just the ones that conclude that milk can cause health problems? What studies do you believe? The ones sponsored by the dairy industry?

Yes, every study done on milks impact on overall nutrition is flawed. If you understood what a confounding variable was or how these studies are quantified you would understand why.


It doesn't change the fact that there are other components of milk that can be devastating to one's health(casein, hormones, antibiotics, pesticides, lack of enzymes).

Devastating? DEVASTATING? Do you even realize what that word implies? Explain to me how casein is devastating to everyones health, or the inactive hormones that dont survive through the digestive system. Again stop repeating the misinformation you have heard and learn something for yourself.

gettinjackT
10-09-2005, 08:45 PM
Yes, every study done on milks impact on overall nutrition is flawed. If you understood what a confounding variable was or how these studies are quantified you would understand why.



Devastating? DEVASTATING? Do you even realize what that word implies? Explain to me how casein is devastating to everyones health, or the inactive hormones that dont survive through the digestive system. Again stop repeating the misinformation you have heard and learn something for yourself.

Actually, I know what a confounding variable is.

I think devastating is an appropriate word. I didn't say it was just the casein, but conventional pasteurized milk as a whole. Large amounts of this or in combination with other enzymeless, unnatural, contaminated foods can definately become a major problem. The colon is a very important organ and what passes through it (or doesn't) can be devastating to one's health. Of course, if someone eats a perfect diet and drinks one glass of milk a day it shouldn't be at all devastating.

There is no point in continuing to argue about this. I think we both sufficiently answered the thread starter's question. Like many things in life, he'll have to decide for himself what to believe. Anyway, this thread is getting old. I'm gonna have a glass of milk and go to bed.

spencerjrus
10-09-2005, 10:41 PM
Actually, I know what a confounding variable is.

I think devastating is an appropriate word. I didn't say it was just the casein, but conventional pasteurized milk as a whole. Large amounts of this or in combination with other enzymeless, unnatural, contaminated foods can definately become a major problem. The colon is a very important organ and what passes through it (or doesn't) can be devastating to one's health. Of course, if someone eats a perfect diet and drinks one glass of milk a day it shouldn't be at all devastating.

There is no point in continuing to argue about this. I think we both sufficiently answered the thread starter's question. Like many things in life, he'll have to decide for himself what to believe. Anyway, this thread is getting old. I'm gonna have a glass of milk and go to bed.


I think you're an idiot.

smalls
10-10-2005, 12:18 AM
LOL.

Ok i'm gonna agree to disagree on this topic. But just to clarify I wasnt arguing just to be a prick. You were using strong and potentially scary words to argue a point which was neither. This site has always prided itself on being based in factual information and advice. We try not to be persuaded by every bit of BS out there. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but your also entitled to ridicule when that opinion is based on hippie propaganda.

fat2fit
10-10-2005, 06:15 AM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but your also entitled to ridicule when that opinion is based on hippie propaganda.

quote of the day imho :)

gettinjackT
10-10-2005, 08:53 AM
LOL.

Ok i'm gonna agree to disagree on this topic. But just to clarify I wasnt arguing just to be a prick. You were using strong and potentially scary words to argue a point which was neither. This site has always prided itself on being based in factual information and advice. We try not to be persuaded by every bit of BS out there. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but your also entitled to ridicule when that opinion is based on hippie propaganda.

I know this site does pride itself being based on factual information, I have been a member for almost as long as you. I am not trying to persuade anyone to believe anything. If everyone believes that what I've stated is complete BS than just ignore it or get a mod to delete my posts.

I just have one question though. If you don't believe any studies ever done on the nutritional aspects of milk, then why would you assume that milk is good for you?

All studies aside, it seems like common sense:
Unnatural food+heat processing+dangerous chemicals=well, it can't be that good

lol@hippie propaganda....come on man, hippies would never agree that raw milk is ok.

gettinjackT
10-10-2005, 08:56 AM
I think you're an idiot.


Relax spence, there is no need for name calling.

spencerjrus
10-10-2005, 10:36 AM
Relax spence, there is no need for name calling.


No I think there is. You have repeatedley demonstrated your willingness to post opinions as facts and use hyperbole to try and make something as benign as milk sound dangerous. All of the examples you have cited have been of people who ALREADY HAVE PREXISTING conditions prior to drinking milk. That is complete rubbish in the context of this site, we are concerned with the health risks assosciated with using it as a caloric supplement, it's impact on people with asthma, lactose intolerant etc. is irrelevant and I don't think its fair or accurate to try and use a small minority of the population as a scare tactic.

Unless you are willing and able to post some hard facts and evidence, something that conclusively links milk to health problems in people without prexisting conditions, I don't see why I should bother to take the time to call you anything other than an idiot.

gettinjackT
10-10-2005, 03:50 PM
No I think there is. You have repeatedley demonstrated your willingness to post opinions as facts and use hyperbole to try and make something as benign as milk sound dangerous. All of the examples you have cited have been of people who ALREADY HAVE PREXISTING conditions prior to drinking milk. That is complete rubbish in the context of this site, we are concerned with the health risks assosciated with using it as a caloric supplement, it's impact on people with asthma, lactose intolerant etc. is irrelevant and I don't think its fair or accurate to try and use a small minority of the population as a scare tactic.

Unless you are willing and able to post some hard facts and evidence, something that conclusively links milk to health problems in people without prexisting conditions, I don't see why I should bother to take the time to call you anything other than an idiot.


Sure, spence. Did you even read the original post in this thread? I know it's a long thread, but I have been trying to stay on topic. Here is part of it:


Anyone see any drawbacks in using large amounts of milk during a bulk? Honestly, I've always been paranoid as far as processed food goes (pastuerized in this case), and I'm concerned about the stories of milk being a cause of allergies, asthma, and mucus, as well as being filled with bacteria and pus.


As you see he specifically asks about the affects of milk on allergies/asthma as well as the drawbacks of consuming large amounts.




So, healthwise, is milk yay or nay? Opinions and experiences appreciated.


And now he is asking for opinions and experiences. So if you believe that everything I've said is pure opinion, well then that's ok. Opinions are welcome in this thread.

Invain
10-10-2005, 07:21 PM
"All studies aside, it seems like common sense:
Unnatural food+heat processing+dangerous chemicals=well, it can't be that good"

First off, how do you classify milk unatural? It comes from the cow? I didn't know milk was grown in a lab.

Secondly, I'd love to hear you try and explain how heat processing is harmful? The milk is heated to a certain temperature to kill any harmful bacteria in it. Explain to me how this makes the milk dangerous?

Thirdly, chemicals? Chemicals? I gotta know what your talking about now? My dad grew up as a dairy farmer, and I've always been around dairy cows. Last time I checked chemicals didn't accidentally find their way into milk?

gettinjackT
10-10-2005, 08:35 PM
"All studies aside, it seems like common sense:
Unnatural food+heat processing+dangerous chemicals=well, it can't be that good"

First off, how do you classify milk unatural? It comes from the cow? I didn't know milk was grown in a lab.

Secondly, I'd love to hear you try and explain how heat processing is harmful? The milk is heated to a certain temperature to kill any harmful bacteria in it. Explain to me how this makes the milk dangerous?

Thirdly, chemicals? Chemicals? I gotta know what your talking about now? My dad grew up as a dairy farmer, and I've always been around dairy cows. Last time I checked chemicals didn't accidentally find their way into milk?

Whats up bud. I hate to be redundant. I already explained all this many times throughout this long post. But one more time.......

When I say unnatural, I'm just saying that milk is not a natural food for human consumption. It is designed for calves. I don't see how anyone could argue with that. Human milk is natural for human consumption (of course you probably wouldn't have many friends if you continued to drink your mother's breast milk after infancy).

Secondly, heat processing destroys all the enzymes that exist in raw milk. By definition milk is pronounced 'pasteurized' only when all the enzymes have been removed by heating. Enzymes are necessary for digestion.

Thirdly, milk today has many harmful chemicals that are indirectly added. These include antibiotics which are given to cows to prevent infections. In addition they are given bovine growth hormones, which are inactive by the time you drink them, but this doesn't mean they are harmless. And cows are often fed plants grown with pesticides/herbicides/synthetic fertilizers. These all can make their way into the milk.

Raw milk from cows living in a natural mineral-rich environment is of course a completely different story.

Again I apologize to everyone for being so redundant, but people keep asking the same questions.

Vitalize
10-10-2005, 09:03 PM
Someones been reading the vegan run www.notmilk.com scaremongering page.
So let me get this straight.... you're banging on about how milk is devil juice and your on a BODYBUILDING site which just happens to be called wannabebig..? Hello!

gettinjackT
10-10-2005, 10:05 PM
Someones been reading the vegan run www.notmilk.com scaremongering page.
So let me get this straight.... you're banging on about how milk is devil juice and your on a BODYBUILDING site which just happens to be called wannabebig..? Hello!


lol........I've never read anything from that particular website. And if it is run by vegans, I don't really want to.

Come on man.......read the thread....I never called milk devil juice and I've repeatedly said that I think milk is great for bulking. Again the thread starter asked about health concerns so I gave him some.

This is getting rediculous. I do not want to continue to repeat myself. Lets end this thread.

Spartan936
10-11-2005, 12:06 AM
I agree gettinjack and smalls. I'd say the advantages of milk far outweight the downfalls. There probably are a few scary things in milk, but you really couldn't get more bang for your buck nutrition wise. So I drink.

And vitalize, I never said I supported vegans or some of the crazy claims on that website. lol. You can check out a woman and not want to marry her you know.

btw, did ANYONE read the link I posted? I thought it was interesting that's all.

http://www.westonaprice.org/men/splendidspecimens.html

fat2fit
10-11-2005, 06:12 AM
ok, so get organic grass-fed milk. Then you have no worries about chems etc. andit tastes better anyway.

btw, by your definition most of the things we eat are "unnatural foods", how is eating deep sea fish any more natural than milk from an animal which shares our own enviroment, and dont even mention protein powder :P .

Anthony
10-11-2005, 07:53 AM
Okay. So I'm going to try to summarize all of the "bad" things about milk and then give my opinion. If I missed one, oh well. If anything is incorrect, feel free to explain, but be prepared to provide facts (preferably backed by studies).

1) Cow milk is bad for humans because we only need human milk during infancy.
- Propoganda.

2) Milk contains pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics.
- More propoganda. Not all dairy cows are exposed to hormones/antibiotics/pesticides. If you want to make an argument against those chemicals, go for it. But they are separate from milk. Furthermore, many of the hormones that have been shown to cause problems (such as rBGH) have been banned and/or boycotted in the majority of the world's dairy farmers.

3) Milk doesn't contain fiber or complex carbs.
- So what? Think big picture.

4) Milk contains cholesterol and saturated fat.
- Again, so what? Dietary cholesterol has little to no effect on cholesterol levels of active/healthy individuals. And while most people say all saturated fat is bad, a lot of studies and dieticians have shown that it can be beneficial ... even up to 50% of our fat intake.

5) Milk contains cow's blood and pus.
- And when you go for a swim at the beach, you're swimming in fish ****. Grow up.

6) Dairy products cause allergies, constipation, obesity, heart disease, cancer, etc.
- Most allergies are inherited. If you have scientific studies that show milk causing allergies, I'd be more than happy to read it. Constipation is related to protein allergies and exists in both cow and soy milk. Obesity and heart disease are primarily results of poor lifestyles. Cancer ... don't you know that everything causes cancer?

7) There's nothing in pasteurized cow milk that is good for humans.
What about protein, fat, vitamin a/d/b6/b12, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, zinc, potassium, etc?

8) Casein is difficult to digest.
- Slower digestion isn't a bad thing.

9) Lactose can't be digested (30-50 americans don't produce enough lactase).
- So 10-15% of americans experience a problem that can be fixed and we care because ... ? Hell, some people are allergic to fish, does that mean I shouldn't eat it? Maybe we should only eat food that causes no problems in 100% of the world population.

10) Not a good source of calcium because there's no phosphatase.
- I'm not a chemist or biologist, but it's my understanding that calcium requires vitamin d to be absorbed efficiently. Either way, I did a quick search and found this ... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10737550&dopt=Abstract

Spartan936
10-11-2005, 12:33 PM
Great post anthony.

As far as lactose intolerence goes, I'd like to add that the best way to begin producing enough of the enzyme lactase is by drinking milk.

And on the concept of milk allergies, it should be noted that children who are introduced to milk early are less much likely to be allergic to it later on. I personally don't know anyone who is allergic to it. Though I do know a guy who will die on the spot if he eats an apple, because he has a severe allergy to them. Now, someone can't make a generalization and say that apples are bad for you, can they?

gettinjackT
10-11-2005, 04:35 PM
I agree gettinjack and smalls. I'd say the advantages of milk far outweight the downfalls. There probably are a few scary things in milk, but you really couldn't get more bang for your buck nutrition wise. So I drink.

And vitalize, I never said I supported vegans or some of the crazy claims on that website. lol. You can check out a woman and not want to marry her you know.

btw, did ANYONE read the link I posted? I thought it was interesting that's all.

http://www.westonaprice.org/men/splendidspecimens.html


I did get a chance to skim through that article. Some very interesting stuff in there. I'll have to take a better look later. Those guys did an excellent job of bulking with the healthiest foods. Lots of raw foods. That's the way to go. A lot of those guys drank raw milk and raw milk yogurts too. Great stuff. :D Thanx for the link.

spencerjrus
10-11-2005, 05:57 PM
When I say unnatural, I'm just saying that milk is not a natural food for human consumption.

Neither is bread.



Secondly, heat processing destroys all the enzymes that exist in raw milk. By definition milk is pronounced 'pasteurized' only when all the enzymes have been removed by heating. Enzymes are necessary for digestion.


Not true, and I quote. ( http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/504_milk.html)

"Raw milk advocates claim that unprocessed milk is healthier because pasteurization destroys nutrients and the enzymes necessary to absorb calcium. It also kills beneficial bacteria and is associated with allergies, arthritis, and other diseases, they say.

This is simply not the case, says Sheehan. Research has shown that there is no significant difference in the nutritional value of pasteurized and unpasteurized milk, he says. The caseins, the major family of milk proteins, are largely unaffected, and any modification in whey protein that might occur is barely perceptible. "



Thirdly, milk today has many harmful chemicals that are indirectly added. These include antibiotics which are given to cows to prevent infections. In addition they are given bovine growth hormones, which are inactive by the time you drink them, but this doesn't mean they are harmless. And cows are often fed plants grown with pesticides/herbicides/synthetic fertilizers. These all can make their way into the milk.

I drink only organic milk, so everything you said here is incorrect and you are completely and utterly wrong.




Raw milk from cows living in a natural mineral-rich environment is of course a completely different story.



The FDA says otherwise. (from the same page)


"Raw milk may harbor a host of disease-causing organisms (pathogens), such as the bacteria campylobacter, escherichia, listeria, salmonella, yersinia, and brucella. Common symptoms of foodborne illness from many of these types of bacteria include diarrhea, stomach cramps, fever, headache, vomiting, and exhaustion.

Most healthy people recover from foodborne illness within a short period of time, but others may have symptoms that are chronic, severe, or life-threatening.

People with weakened immune systems, such as elderly people, children, and those with certain diseases or conditions, are most at risk for severe infections from pathogens that may be present in raw milk. In pregnant women, Listeria monocytogenes-caused illness can result in miscarriage, fetal death, or illness or death of a newborn infant. And Escherichia coli infection has been linked to hemolytic uremic syndrome, a condition that can cause kidney failure and death.

Some of the diseases that pasteurization can prevent are tuberculosis, diphtheria, polio, salmonellosis, strep throat, scarlet fever, and typhoid fever."

CarlP
10-11-2005, 06:40 PM
Great post anthony.

As far as lactose intolerence goes, I'd like to add that the best way to begin producing enough of the enzyme lactase is by drinking milk.

And on the concept of milk allergies, it should be noted that children who are introduced to milk early are less much likely to be allergic to it later on. I personally don't know anyone who is allergic to it. Though I do know a guy who will die on the spot if he eats an apple, because he has a severe allergy to them. Now, someone can't make a generalization and say that apples are bad for you, can they?

Allergic to apples? That's one I've never heard of.

gettinjackT
10-11-2005, 06:48 PM
Many of the ingredients in bread (depending on what type of bread) are very natural. But yes, many breads are highly processed.

I don't know if I would trust everything the FDA says. They don't always make sense. However, it was an interesting read. Thanx. I'll have to do more research on the damage pasteurization plays on phosphatase. I do know that most enzymes become denatured at about 118 degrees F. I believe pasteurization is usually done at about 135. Correct me if I am wrong.

Also, I never said that raw milk did not have harmful bacteria in it. This is obviously the reason they use pasteurization. If one is going to drink raw milk, they should consume it in very small amounts and work their way up. This will allow one to develop the healthy intestinal bacteria to deal with these new bad bacteria. (This is the same reason why a traveller may get sick from drinking the water in a different country but the natives don't). People have drank raw milk for centuries and have been completely fine.
Salmonella, E. Coli, ect. are harmless to those with healthy digestive systems that have the correct intestinal flora.





I drink only organic milk, so everything you said here is incorrect and you are completely and utterly wrong.


lol, how was I to know this? And that doesn't mean that everything I said was "utterly wrong". The discussion was on conventional milk(not organic).

Jorge Sanchez
10-11-2005, 06:56 PM
I like milk.

gettinjackT
10-11-2005, 07:33 PM
5) Milk contains cow's blood and pus.
- And when you go for a swim at the beach, you're swimming in fish ****. Grow up.


lol, Who doesn't like cow's blood anyway? I love my steaks rare. :drooling:

Invain
10-11-2005, 07:56 PM
Thank's Anthony, that cleared a lot of stuff up.

ReelBigFish
10-11-2005, 10:11 PM
Many of the ingredients in bread (depending on what type of bread) are very natural. But yes, many breads are highly processed.

I don't know if I would trust everything the FDA says. They don't always make sense. However, it was an interesting read. Thanx. I'll have to do more research on the damage pasteurization plays on phosphatase. I do know that most enzymes become denatured at about 118 degrees F. I believe pasteurization is usually done at about 135. Correct me if I am wrong.

Also, I never said that raw milk did not have harmful bacteria in it. This is obviously the reason they use pasteurization. If one is going to drink raw milk, they should consume it in very small amounts and work their way up. This will allow one to develop the healthy intestinal bacteria to deal with these new bad bacteria. (This is the same reason why a traveller may get sick from drinking the water in a different country but the natives don't). People have drank raw milk for centuries and have been completely fine.
Salmonella, E. Coli, ect. are harmless to those with healthy digestive systems that have the correct intestinal flora.





lol, how was I to know this? And that doesn't mean that everything I said was "utterly wrong". The discussion was on conventional milk(not organic).

What's funny is that both of ya'll used the word "utterly" while talking about cows milk. :)

spencerjrus
10-12-2005, 10:16 AM
Salmonella, E. Coli, ect. are harmless to those with healthy digestive systems that have the correct intestinal flora.

Pretty funny coming from you. What about people without healthy digestive systems and the correct intestinal flora? Are you not as concerned about them as you are about people with asthma or those who are lactose intolerant? How can you be so milk blind?

Spartan936
10-12-2005, 11:56 AM
Pretty funny coming from you. What about people without healthy digestive systems and the correct intestinal flora? Are you not as concerned about them as you are about people with asthma or those who are lactose intolerant? How can you be so milk blind?

LOL

Whoa, don't have a cow, man. :zipit:


I have both digestive problems and asthma, and milk still seems to be worth it for me. I take lactase enzymes, and also probiotics for the good intestinal flora. I also eat plenty of veggies, they're beneficial for the gut as well.

Bruise Brubaker
10-12-2005, 01:10 PM
Kefir and kombucha are my friends.

I think one of my dream is to own a big cow, many chicks, and the equipment to cultivate spirulina.
BARELY ON TOPIC

spencerjrus
10-12-2005, 11:25 PM
Kefir and kombucha are my friends.

I think one of my dream is to own a big cow, many chicks, and the equipment to cultivate spirulina.
BARELY ON TOPIC


Kefir is delicious. OT.

Vitalize
10-13-2005, 07:05 AM
Can we lock this page now?

bschatz88
10-13-2005, 07:17 AM
3/4 gallon a day.

milk is #1.