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View Full Version : Are lateral raises worth doing?



jww13
10-21-2005, 02:18 AM
For side delts, is an exercise like dumbbell shoulder press or barbell military press enough, or would lateral raises be beneficial?

They remind me of kickbacks because the weight is so light, and the range of motion isn't a real-world movement at all.

Has anyone made noticeable size gains in their delts from lateral raises?

thanks

HILL
10-21-2005, 02:53 AM
Yes, I think these are an important exercise

Tony H
10-21-2005, 05:07 AM
I think they're great now, but I used to dismiss them like you. You just have to do them seriously one time to realize that the shoulder presses aren't working them as well. Rear Delt Raises are good too.

DavyRen
10-21-2005, 05:34 AM
I love them that much that I look forward to shoulder/arms day even though it's the most intense part of wbb#1 for me.

bubba booey
10-21-2005, 07:22 AM
Guess I'm in the minority - but I think they're a waste of time. The medial head of the delts is such a small muscle, and gets plenty of stimulation from shoulder presses. As does the posterior head from rows and pull-ups, and anterior head from dips and presses. IMO, gym time can be much more productive if you spend it doing the big compound lifts, which, if done w/ similar loading across all movement planes, will provide great balance.

HardToSquat
10-21-2005, 07:37 AM
I actually use the Hammer Strength Lateral Raise machine exclusively for my medial heads. They have grown quite nicely. However, I also perform many compound movement excercises such as 100lb per hand DB bench presses and 300lb weighted Dips (BW+plates) along with the standard Squat and Deads. These other excercises probably also contribute to the Medial heads in some indirect fashion.

Jay-X
10-21-2005, 08:11 AM
> I actually use the Hammer Strength Lateral Raise machine exclusively for my medial > heads. They have grown quite nicely. However, I also perform many compound >movement excercises such as 100lb per hand DB bench presses and 300lb weighted > Dips (BW+plates) along with the standard Squat and Deads. These other excercises > probably also contribute to the Medial heads in some indirect fashion.


as soon as i read 100lb in a lateral raises' thread, my heart stopped beating

djreef
10-21-2005, 08:20 AM
That's a big bitch what could pull that off.

DJ

squat it all!
10-21-2005, 10:01 AM
they can be valuable if you do them right. after squats and maybe curls, this is the one excercise i see done incorrectly in the gym most often.

Gabrielle
10-23-2005, 12:25 AM
they are beneficial its just that the gains don't happen overnight. Plus some people will genetically never have awesome side delts. I rarely see people in the gym busting their ass on side delts, I guess most people dislike that you don't get the same rush as db or military press

cphafner
10-23-2005, 07:36 AM
You always have to focus on the compound motion, but secondary motions are necessary to fully stimulate the muscles (imho). You can always switch to bent over lat raises which will help stimulate the rear delt, which doesn't get as much stimulation from pressing movements.

dasher
10-30-2005, 05:42 AM
my traps got huge from these

Gareth_18
10-30-2005, 06:40 AM
IMO, i think they suck, for doing anyway, never done enough to see any gains.

Sug
10-30-2005, 01:05 PM
I read somewhere that shoulde presses, military presses hit the Front delts. So I do lateral raises for the medial head and recently have done bent over rear delt raises. The side delts have grown a little and I can see the change, my rear delts are non existant so I'll see how much they grow in the following months.

Built
10-30-2005, 01:10 PM
Sug, try Arnies followed by side laterals. Arnies hit front and side delts, then the side laterals hit the pre-exhausted side delts.

Face pulls are another option for you for rear delt work, although my favourite is face-down, incline rear delt raises.

sLip
10-30-2005, 03:35 PM
is there any diff between arnies and shoulder press?

f=ma
10-30-2005, 04:32 PM
more range of motion

Anthony
10-30-2005, 04:36 PM
They're not a bad exercise, but I personally don't see the need for them. My shoulders get enough work from militaries/bench/rows.

Built
10-30-2005, 04:41 PM
Arnies hit front and side delts. Straight up press mostly just hits front delt.

Anthony
10-30-2005, 04:51 PM
I think arnies hit the front and side delts in a similar manner to military presses. Exrx lists identical muscle involvement, although I realize they aren't always accurate. Mostly I base my opinion on watching the movement. I don't see how turning your hand at the bottom of the movement would change focus to side delts to any measurable degree. Other than that tiny detail, they are the same as a military press.

spencerjrus
10-30-2005, 05:44 PM
I like Arnies, I cant say they are any more effective than military press, but they do build delts nicely.

Built
10-30-2005, 09:55 PM
You don't turn your HAND for arnies. You rotate your arm from the shoulder joint. Your fists follow roughly a J-shape.

An Arnie is basically half side lateral, half shoulder press.

dw06wu
10-30-2005, 11:00 PM
I love lateral raises. They hit my shoulders like none other. You gotta make sure you're doing them right though; otherwise its a waste of time.

Anthony
10-31-2005, 04:58 AM
You don't turn your HAND for arnies. You rotate your arm from the shoulder joint. Your fists follow roughly a J-shape.

An Arnie is basically half side lateral, half shoulder press.

I used a simple description because we both know what an Arnold press is. Bottom position hands are facing you, top position hands are facing away like a traditional press. The rotation mimicks a fly more than a side lateral. I'm actually really confused how you consider these half side lateral / half shoulder press. Feel free to explain.

Built
10-31-2005, 08:40 AM
Sure, fly then.

But the fly portion hits side delts. As the palms rotate forward, the front delts get hit more. They also work the rotator cuff, which some of us find quite helpful.

Miker
10-31-2005, 08:54 AM
Arnies are simply a combination of a dumbell military press and an external rotation rotator cuff movement. I see no fly movement whatsoever....The bottom movement is almost entirely rotator cuff and the upward press is all mid/front delt...thus no need for lateral raises for front and mid delt heads.

Lateral raises are more effective in my opinion, when doing them for your rear delts. The front and side gets good tension from arnies, mil press, incline BP..

However, they are a good mixer if you want to hit them directly.

Built
10-31-2005, 09:15 AM
Cool.

Thanks Miker.

Anthony
10-31-2005, 09:17 AM
Sure, fly then.

But the fly portion hits side delts. As the palms rotate forward, the front delts get hit more. They also work the rotator cuff, which some of us find quite helpful.

I might agree if one of two things were to happen. First, a rear fly requires resistance to work. Holding a dumbbell in your hand and rotating your shoulder sounds like one of the exercises listed in the "dumb things people do at the gym" thread. Seriously, do the bottom part of the movement WITHOUT the press and tell me how good it works. Pretty much useless, imo.

Second, even if there was resistance, a rear fly will work rear delts more than side delts.

My point is simple: Arnold presses do not work side delts anymore than a traditional military press. If there's concrete proof that proves me wrong, I'd be more than happy to read it.

Anthony
10-31-2005, 09:20 AM
Arnies are simply a combination of a dumbell military press and an external rotation rotator cuff movement. I see no fly movement whatsoever....The bottom movement is almost entirely rotator cuff and the upward press is all mid/front delt...thus no need for lateral raises for front and mid delt heads.

Picture doing a reverse pec deck fly ... at the very bottom of an arnold you have your arms in front and palms facing you. As you press up, your arms move to the side which is the same position as a traditional press. It's that movement that mimicks the reverse fly. Or tradtional fly, since there's equal (aka useless) resistance in both directions.



Lateral raises are more effective in my opinion, when doing them for your rear delts. The front and side gets good tension from arnies, mil press, incline BP..

Agreed.

Sensei
10-31-2005, 11:07 AM
Pavel writes that the Arnold press is a superior pressing movement because the beginning position prestretches the side delt and activates the posterior delt better than regular presses.

lilmase1153
10-31-2005, 11:25 AM
Since I started making an emphasis on side laterals and rear delt raises I finally started filling in my delts the way they should have been all along.

I also used to be of the belief of heavy pressing and rows should be sufficient to not worry about my medial and rear delt. Well I was wrong my front head was far too dominating, and made my side and rear delt look far underdeveloped. I know some people respond differntly, I am just one of the ones who need laterals and rear delt raises to keep my delts looking symetrical.

spencerjrus
10-31-2005, 11:29 AM
Since I started making an emphasis on side laterals and rear delt raises I finally started filling in my delts the way they should have been all along.

I also used to be of the belief of heavy pressing and rows should be sufficient to not worry about my medial and rear delt. Well I was wrong my front head was far too dominating, and made my side and rear delt look far underdeveloped. I know some people respond differntly, I am just one of the ones who need laterals and rear delt raises to keep my delts looking symetrical.


Wow I could never accurately describe the problem with my delts until you said that, thanks *hurries off to the gym*

MixmasterNash
10-31-2005, 12:20 PM
I also used to be of the belief of heavy pressing and rows should be sufficient to not worry about my medial and rear delt. Well I was wrong my front head was far too dominating, and made my side and rear delt look far underdeveloped. I know some people respond differntly, I am just one of the ones who need laterals and rear delt raises to keep my delts looking symetrical.

I've found that olympic lifts (esp. high pulls) seem to work well for medial and posterior delt development. The arm rotation minimizes anterior delt activation.

Relentless
10-31-2005, 12:45 PM
Arnies are simply a combination of a dumbell military press and an external rotation rotator cuff movement. I see no fly movement whatsoever....The bottom movement is almost entirely rotator cuff and the upward press is all mid/front delt...thus no need for lateral raises for front and mid delt heads.

Lateral raises are more effective in my opinion, when doing them for your rear delts. The front and side gets good tension from arnies, mil press, incline BP..

However, they are a good mixer if you want to hit them directly.


That's a pretty good explanation, Mike. I had also read elsewhere something along the lines of what Sensei has mentioned with the prestretching of the side delt and rear delt activation.

Ultimately I think that there's not THAT much difference between Arnold Presses and basic DB shoulder presses but personally I find the Arnold-type motion much more comfortable and stable (for me).

As far as the side delt activation, I think that is a moot point ASSUMING that you are doing traditional DB presses quite 'deep' in the ROM. The side delt will tend to see more activation in the lower part of the ROM with traditional presses because once the arm and shoulder are at the bottom of the ROM, the anterior delt is at a mechanical disadvantage and you must rely more on the stabilizing/synergist muscles to get the weight moving.

I believe this is also why EXRX lists the pectoralis major (clavicular) as a synergist for the regular DB shoulder press but not the arnold press. At the bottom of the ROM, the pecs engage a bit to get the weight out of the 'hole' at the bottom. With the Arnolds, because the arm is rotated, it takes the pec out of the movement and puts a bit more load on the lateral delts.

There is SOME lateral/rear delt activation to pull the weight back from the bottom position in the arnold ROM but it's certainly not equivalent to the weight you're pressing. I don't agree with Anthony that there is "equal, i.e. useless resistance" for the side/rear delts in the rotational movement because it's not a flat-plane rotation; at the bottom of the arnold ROM, with your palms in, take a look at your hands and what 'height' they are at. Should be at about equal with the tops of your shoulders. Now form may vary from trainee to trainee but for myself, when I externally rotate the DBs to prepare for the 'press' part of the Arnold, my hands wind up at a point typically somewhere between my jawline and my ear, some 4-5" 'higher up' than the bottom part of the ROM.

Bottom line: Will doing Arnold presses impact the lateral/rear delts more effectively than targeted isolation movements? Hell no. Will doing Arnold Presses impact the lateral/rear delts more than traditional DB presses? I think the answer to that is "slightly".


----
And in response to the original question, I think lateral raises are totally worth doing. And you can do 'em fairly heavy, you just have to work at it. I can get decent side lateral raises banged out with up to 45lbs or so, which is a bit more than half what I can shoulder press.

bigsethmeister
10-31-2005, 12:59 PM
My delts (front, side AND rear) have always been my weakest point. Finally about a year ago I started separating them out into their own day and started including lateral raises and bent over lateral raises in the routine. It wasn't until then that I started to see decent gains. At least for me these exercises seem to have been very beneficial.

Built
10-31-2005, 01:09 PM
Will doing Arnold Presses impact the lateral/rear delts more than traditional DB presses? I think the answer to that is "slightly".

Which is why I've always liked these when followed OR supersetted with side laterals. The side-delt is pre-exhausted from the Arnold press (if you doubt it, try supersetting these two movements), and gets a direct hit with the side lateral.

Thanks for the clarification, Callahan.

Anthony
10-31-2005, 01:23 PM
I don't agree with Anthony that there is "equal, i.e. useless resistance" for the side/rear delts in the rotational movement because it's not a flat-plane rotation; at the bottom of the arnold ROM, with your palms in, take a look at your hands and what 'height' they are at. Should be at about equal with the tops of your shoulders. Now form may vary from trainee to trainee but for myself, when I externally rotate the DBs to prepare for the 'press' part of the Arnold, my hands wind up at a point typically somewhere between my jawline and my ear, some 4-5" 'higher up' than the bottom part of the ROM.

Scott. Would you ever do the bottom part of this movement without the pressing (in terms of strength training - not shoulder warmup stuff)? No. Why not? Because the resistance isn't against the rotation. It's like placing a weight on your head and turning in a circle. The resistance is the same in both directions. Am I the only one who can see that the bottom part of the arnold mimicks a seated fly?

Anthony
10-31-2005, 01:27 PM
And just to clarify, I have no problem with Arnolds as an exercise. But I don't believe there is a measurable difference between an Arnold press and a traditional overhead press.

Built
10-31-2005, 01:30 PM
Yanno, Anthony, it might be one of those "personal geometry" things. For me, I don't get nearly the hit on my shoulders from overhead presses as I do with Arnies. My shoulder development literally took off when I incorporated them. But my front delt tends to be overdeveloped, and I tend to kinda roll forward. I really pay attention to side and rear delt, and trap, development to try to pull me "back".

Bottom line - you do what works, right?

Anthony
10-31-2005, 01:32 PM
Which is why my first comment in this thread included "personally" ... ;)

Built
10-31-2005, 01:38 PM
Sure, but you went on to argue that the bottom part of the movement was pretty much useless, and makes it a candidate for "dumb things people do at the gym". Many of us would disagree.

Anthony
10-31-2005, 01:41 PM
And I still think so. Do the bottom part of the movement without the press. Where's the benefit?

Built
10-31-2005, 01:46 PM
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Anthony.

Miker
10-31-2005, 05:10 PM
'Personally'.. I have rotator cuff issues.. injuries to the AC joint from too many years of rugby and so forth. I find Arnies help strengthen the rotator cuff which in turn gives me more stability to press.. both shoulders and pecs. I'm with Cal on his explanation regarding the slight lat delt involvement. Truly.. I do separate rotator cuff work, side, and rear delt lateral raises as well as Arnies. Call me superstitious.. I cover the gamut if I can. ;)

In reality.. you do what works. If your mid and front delts grow from Arnies.. then why bother with mid and front delt raises.. if they don't.. then teach them a lesson .. (as I see Cal does to his regularly!) lol