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View Full Version : P + C, P + F ...who has the links?



malkore
10-24-2005, 01:18 PM
I know a few of you have links to articles about why it's better to have prot+carbs in the morning, early afternoon, and then prot+fat in the late afternoon/evening hours.

Didn't see em in the Articles section, and the search feature is busted.

Can one of you share some links? I plan to google, but 50% of net info is bad, so I wanna ensure I get true articles/research, etc.

thanks.

f=ma
10-24-2005, 01:31 PM
there is a link of a thread on bodyrecomposition about P+C and P+F meals in ryuages signature I believe..

malkore
10-24-2005, 02:14 PM
Thanks. I knew someone had it in their sig but couldn't remember who. Looked em up and found the URL. Thanks again

ryuage
10-24-2005, 02:19 PM
?

Built
10-24-2005, 02:23 PM
I eat this way because I find it more comfortable. Ryuage doesn't feel it matters. Seems to be very individual.

Berardi has quite a bit on this, as does Rugged Mag.

ryuage
10-24-2005, 02:43 PM
more comfortable or more effective? I guess if it is more comfortable for you to eat that way then it is more effective for you, but as far as fat loss / weight gain is concerned do you think it will really matter in the big scheme of things?

Built
10-24-2005, 03:17 PM
Hmmm… it's an important distinction to make.

My best answer is "it might". There's evidence in both directions.

I find it works better for me, and the insulin/glucagon thing cannot be ignored, but I've said before and I'll say again - the biggest problem with reducing calories is appetite control. Will separating carb from fat keep me from storing an extra 50 calories worth of fat? Maybe. Maybe not. But for many of us, it's more comfortable, and there's evidence that it may be beneficial. There's no evidence that it is harmful.

Better appetite control and a non-zero probability that it helps with partitioning are strong enough reasons for me.

Holto
10-24-2005, 03:31 PM
Excellent post Ruyage. This is my position on everything training and diet related. Any factor that doesn't impact the effectiveness of the program just confuses things, taking away from the program as a whole.

The original poster used the term *better*. I can only guess that by this he thinks he will gain muscle faster or lose fat quicker, or perhaps even a combination of both.

Combining various macro's will not make your diet more effective regardless of what your goals are. The only benefit at all is as in Builts case it helps her stick to *a* diet period.

Holto
10-24-2005, 03:38 PM
My best answer is "it might". There's evidence in both directions.

I'd like to see evidence in either direction. To me this is incredibly easy to prove in a clinical setting. Two groups, equal cals, different macro's, done deal.

I'm not sure what you mean by evidence but if you can give me a title or a link to any study that would make a great read.

This is one of those topics where I wish the general public or medical industry would have some interest in studying.

ryuage
10-24-2005, 03:48 PM
sure doesnt seem to make it easier, i want me my peanut butter and jelly sammmmiches.

*goes to eat one right now*

defcon
10-24-2005, 04:20 PM
sure doesnt seem to make it easier, i want me my peanut butter and jelly sammmmiches.

*goes to eat one right now*

Skip the Jelly and I'm with ya. I even say it, 'sammmiches' ! My GF makes the best ones. Ensures that there are equal amounts of PB all over the bread. :drooling: :drooling: :drooling:

malkore
10-24-2005, 09:24 PM
Not the best choice of words I guess. I merely wanted the link from Ryu's sig, but didn't know who's sig to go look for.

Its an interesting debate. Honestly, I bet it does work for some people, but its hard to say unless you try it both ways for a long enough time, monitoring everything perfectly, before you can say either way is more effective.

And if both are equally effective, then just do what works. For me, carbs do make me hungry in the evening, so I'm gathering all the evidence, pro or con, for P + F in later p.m. hours.

Thanks all!

Pup
10-25-2005, 06:48 AM
The heart of the debate isn't so much whether or not p+f and p+c are useful as dietary strategies, but moreso in JB's claims of what are necessary calorie needs and whether or not controlling insulin is the key to keeping fat gain to a minimum when in major calorie surplus. I don't think anyone can question that implementing the strategy is not a bad idea for cleaning up the diet and giving someone not used to eating clean a pretty basic template for setting up a diet.

Most studies regarding weightloss are done on the obese, not healthy individuals, so its not likely to see too many worthwhile studies done on humans in this area as the prime directive is as much weightloss as possible as soon as possible.

muscleup
10-25-2005, 11:51 AM
You guys trying to say certain people may benefit from eating; Oats, whey, Milk,egg whites, bananas, bread, chicken, tuna, potatos before 3pm?

And eating; Red meat, PB, Olive oil, nuts, Milk, Whole eggs...after 3pm?

I don't have any scientific research documented, but I think I would gain more fat if I ate this in reverse.
If I have a pizza crave, I eat it for brekfast, even though I am on a bulk.

ryuage
10-25-2005, 12:08 PM
so I guess if I work in the evenings or am more active after 3pm so much for eating carbs cuz its past the point of no return eh?

Owen
10-25-2005, 12:08 PM
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/masseating_rl_1.htm

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/masseating_rl_2.htm

These articles cover John Berardis eating strategy, including p+c and p+f, which is what I use. Hes a respected guy, and a body builder, as well as a PHD.

Pup
10-25-2005, 12:11 PM
You guys trying to say certain people may benefit from eating; Oats, whey, Milk,egg whites, bananas, bread, chicken, tuna, potatos before 3pm?

And eating; Red meat, PB, Olive oil, nuts, Milk, Whole eggs...after 3pm?

I don't have any scientific research documented, but I think I would gain more fat if I ate this in reverse.
If I have a pizza crave, I eat it for brekfast, even though I am on a bulk.

Well...if you had oats before bed, i doubt it would hurt you. Now obviously pounding down a pizza before bed is not conducive to fat loss. Carb tapering (which is what you just described), is a method used by a lot of people, not just those who practice the p/f and p/c protocol. There are some studies that show your metabolism "gets lazy" as the day progresses and using more p/f meals at night (especially n-3 dense foods) would bump the metabolic process. In the "best of" sticky ST and TCD discuss the uncoupling effects of olive oil and n-3...a good read for sure.

muscleup
10-25-2005, 01:22 PM
so I guess if I work in the evenings or am more active after 3pm so much for eating carbs cuz its past the point of no return eh?
No, I still spike after workout and I lift from 430-530 usually. But during dinner and before I go to sleep I don't load up on pasta, bread & potatos.
You know?
I really didn't mean I purposly try to do this, but over the past couple months of bulking, it has just worked out that I happen to eat more carbs during the morning through mid day, and then at night after working out I spike directly after and then lay off until morning again.

I think I save most of the fat and red meat for the end of my day because if I am behind on cals, that's where I will be able to rebound.
The food that I think of when I need cals are usually milk, PB, and red meat.

ryuage
10-25-2005, 06:09 PM
Today's nutrition tip comes from Dr. John Berardi:

Revving Up Metabolism

I recommend more calories than most do. There's no such thing as a stagnant metabolic set-point. Instead, metabolism chases intake. So, if you want a bigger metabolism, you need a bigger food intake. Just use outcome-based decision making and adjust energy (calorie) intake every two weeks based on your results. Not much "damage" can take place in only two weeks if it turns out you're consuming too much.


ya uhmm thats why we have so many skinny people running around

Built
10-25-2005, 06:51 PM
I actually do this every few months when I'm dieting. I cut VERY slowly - helps me keep what meagre LBM I have.

I'll take two weeks off dieting, and eat a LOT over maintenance for that two weeks. This usually translates to a couple pounds of fat gain. Then I'll resume the cut. Helps keep my metabolism from sliding ever downward. It's a nice break from endless dieting, too.

ryuage
10-25-2005, 07:34 PM
thats nice and all but thats not what he is saying to do.

Built
10-25-2005, 07:42 PM
Well, he's saying to increase your cals for a few weeks to see what happens. Keep in mind, his clientele are athletes, not couch potatoes. Most of us here could probably increase our daily calories by a few hundred and not gain all that much weight from it. I've actually LOST weight by increasing my cals slightly when I was cutting too hard. Eating more food can stimulate the metabolism. I've done it, and I've seen it happen to others many, many times.

I eat a lot more than most women my weight and age. It's not an accident.

Maki Riddington
10-25-2005, 08:08 PM
Unified Theory of Nutrition: Total Calories dictate how much weight a person gains or loses; macro nutrient ratios dictate WHAT a person gains or loses.

Neat quote.

Maki Riddington
10-25-2005, 08:10 PM
so I guess if I work in the evenings or am more active after 3pm so much for eating carbs cuz its past the point of no return eh?

Your body isn't as receptive to carbohydrates at night due to the sleep cycle so if you do shift work I'd watch how you fit your carbs into your program.

Holto
10-26-2005, 11:28 AM
Your body isn't as receptive to carbohydrates at night due to the sleep cycle so if you do shift work I'd watch how you fit your carbs into your program.

What are you suggesting would happen ?

In a case of bulking or cutting.

Built
10-26-2005, 11:36 AM
I believe Maki is referring to how these nutrients are partioned. You get preferential nutrient partitioning, of course, during the post-workout so-called "anabolic window". This can continue strongly for several hours after you train. But partioning is not grand when you sleep. So for those of us who train at night, it's a tricky little balancing act.

Maki (or anyone else who knows more about this than I do) please feel free to add something more specific - I'm entering into the land of "beyond this point there be dragons" in my knowledge of how this works.

Owen
10-26-2005, 01:59 PM
Ive always combined my food into p+c with minimal fat and p+f with minimal carbs. Its the way I eat. Other than post workout carbs I dont believe the meals themselves are determined by time of day. Just dont eat large amounts of fats with your p and c meal and large amounts of carbs with your p and f meal. This is a quote from one of Dr. Berardis earlier papers on the subject of p+c/p+f:

'The worst case scenario for someone trying to pack on muscle while minimizing fat gain is to have high blood levels of carbs, fat, and insulin at the same time.
This is nasty because chronic elevation of insulin can increase the rate of transport of fats and carbs into fat cells.'

Now some people actually set up camp in a Berardi vs. McDonald mindset. I think that Massive Eating Reloaded (Berardi) is for weight gain with minimal fat gain. Its been tested on alot of people and has been accepted as a method that works very well. I think Lyle McDonalds Ultimate Diet is for cutting and is also a very respected and effective program, but they are two different things...with two different purposes. :cool:

spanky33
10-26-2005, 02:25 PM
personally, i can eat ALOT of carbs, and i wont put on any fat. my body responds very well to carbs. i can eat boxes of cereal with milk and not gain an ounce of fat. dont ask how, i dont know. (and i used to be a fatass too).

at the same time, as soon as i start throwing peanut butter into the equation, the body weight goes up.

it varies greatly between individuals.

Maki Riddington
10-26-2005, 04:24 PM
I believe Maki is referring to how these nutrients are partioned. You get preferential nutrient partitioning, of course, during the post-workout so-called "anabolic window". This can continue strongly for several hours after you train. But partioning is not grand when you sleep. So for those of us who train at night, it's a tricky little balancing act.



Yes that is what I was getting at.

Case in point. One of my clients is an RCMP officer who wanted an eating plan devised for him so he could manage his food during work hours. He works two days and two nights. He also wanted to put on muscle (obviously). Basically I had him eat fiborous carbs during the night shift with protein and increased his carb intake during the day shifts with less focus on protein.

Built
10-26-2005, 04:29 PM
Maki, this is interesting - are you saying that even though he was awake at night, his partioning would have been affected by the time of day?

Maki Riddington
10-26-2005, 04:35 PM
Yes.

Maki Riddington
10-26-2005, 04:46 PM
An experimental study by Hampton et al3 showed that the postprandial glucose concentrations were higher after a meal when the circadian rhythm was phase shifted. A more complex diurnal metabolic regulation has also been suggested involving the pattern of sleep debt, indicating that the quality and duration of sleep could impact on metabolic and endocrine function.4 5 Epidemiological studies have also shown that shift work could lead to acute metabolic disturbances. Theorell and Akerstedt6 showed that night work led to changes in the concentrations of serum glucose and serum lipids that returned to normal upon return to day work. Other studies have reported increased concentrations of serum triglycerides in shift workers.1

The findings on disturbances in glucose and serum lipids raises the question whether shift work could induce insulin resistancea lowered sensitivity in muscle, liver and fat cells to the actions of insulinwhich is the underlying cause for the metabolic syndrome. The disturbances comprising the metabolic syndrome are obesity (especially abdominal fat accumulation), dyslipidaemia with high triglycerides and low high density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol concentrations, hypertension, and a low fibrinolytic activity.7 Often the syndrome includes impaired glucose tolerance.

1. Bøggild H, Knutsson A. Shiftwork, risk factors and cardiovascular disease. Scand J Work Environ Health 1999;25:85-99[Medline].

3. Hampton SM, Morgan LM, Lawrance N, et al. Postprandial hormone and metabolic responses in simulated shiftwork. J Endocrinol 1996;151:257-267.

4. Spiegel K, Leproult R, VanCauter E. Impact of sleep debt on metabolic and endocrine function. Lancet 1999;354:1435-1439[Medline].

5. Scheen J, Van Cauter E. The roles of time of day and sleep quality in modulating glucose regulation: clinical implications. Horm Res 1998;49:191-201[Medline].

6. Theorell T, Åkerstedt T. Day and night work: changes in cholesterol, uric acid, glucose, and potassium in serum and in circadian patterns of urinary cathecolamine excretion. Acta Med Scand 1976;200:47-53[Medline].

7. DeFronzo R, Ferrannini E. Insulin resistance. A multifaceted syndrome responsible for NIDDM, obesity, hypertension, dyslipidemia, and atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. Diabetes Care 1991;14:173-194[Abstract].

Built
10-26-2005, 05:06 PM
Ohhhh.... I vaguely remember reading something about this in the paper a while back - seems shift workers tend to be fatter.

Innnnnteresting... thank you for this Maki. Much obliged.