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Wierz
11-09-2005, 11:34 AM
I have a problem helping my girlfriend lose weight. She's unhappy with her body (she's only like 15 pounds "overweight") but I want to be able to give her some advice she can stick to that will lead to some results for her. Obviously, I don't think she needs to lose ANY weight, but unfortunately, she can't see herself through my eyes.

I'm no stranger to nutrition thanks to this website but I'm completely at a loss as to what I should tell her. I'm struggling right now to keep her from beginning to take diet pills, which so far I've been able to do. She says she can't lose weight w/o them and I tell her she can, but I feel like a biggot not being able to come up with any better solutions than what we've tried already.

So far, this is her diet and stats, and it isn't giving the results she wants.

Height: 5'9"
Age: 24
Weight: 154lbs-156lbs
BF: I'd guess around 19% (it's hard to judge in women).

Current Diet looks like this:

7:00-8:00: Bowl of cereal (Kix usually) and Coffee (2-3 cups) w/ just nonfat creamer.

12:00-1:00: Cup of yogurt, small bag of carrots, 2-3oz of turkey lunch meat, and 2 servings of some cracker (triscuits or saltines usually)

6:00-7:00: Usually chicken breast, 1 serving of a vegetable, and either rice or potato.

I've had her track her calories on fitday, and she eats between 1400-1500 calories a day! She cheats on weekends, but still only eats 2000-2100 then, if that. She goes to the gym 4 days a week and does 45 mins of cardio. The only other info. I can think would come into play is that she's on Birth Control and she doesn't drink any soda, ever really.

I'm at a total loss. She must burn at least 400 calories while do that cardio, so her average daily caloric intake is around 1000-1100 calories?!?!? Shouldn't that be PLENTY for weight loss? Am I missing something? We're both getting discouraged (espeically her). I tell her all the time I don't think she eats enough protein, but all things aside, 1000-1100 calories a day does NOT seem like enough to me to maintain her bodyweight.

Any ideas on what I'm overlooking or what she could try would be greatly appreciated.

Built
11-09-2005, 11:37 AM
Cardio did less than nothing for me for weight loss.

I used to be fat. 170 lbs worth of fat. Running 10k 3x a week.

Show her my pix, then tell her to join here and I'll help her.

Wierz
11-09-2005, 11:49 AM
I TOLD her about you! Honestly. I've told her about you in the past too, and she's told me she doesn't want to look like a "bodybuilder". I try to let her know she doens't have to, but she seems set against heavy weight training.

I'll try to get her to join I guess. I just don't get it though. We're obviously doing something wrong, but I thought by sheer caloric deficit she'd lose weight. I was incorrect, apparently.

reeffish
11-09-2005, 11:58 AM
Try breaking that 1500 calories into 5-6 meals instead of 3. And quit cheating on the weekends.

How long have you monitored the daily calorie intake for? If it was only for a few days, she might have been extra good those days just because she know she was being monitored. Somehow I don't think we are getting the full picture here.

She probably is getting enough protein. Most people do get enough. Most body builders eat far more protein than they actually need to.

Built
11-09-2005, 11:59 AM
She doesn't have to look like a bodybuilder.

If she thinks I look "too big", show her the relaxed pic in the dress.

The muscles only look big when I'm flexed. The rest of the time, I just fit into my size 2 or 4 clothes and look "toned".

Built
11-09-2005, 12:03 PM
Try breaking that 1500 calories into 5-6 meals instead of 3. And quit cheating on the weekends.

How long have you monitored the daily calorie intake for? If it was only for a few days, she might have been extra good those days just because she know she was being monitored. Somehow I don't think we are getting the full picture here.

She probably is getting enough protein. Most people do get enough. Most body builders eat far more protein than they actually need to.

At 5'9" and 156 lbs, she should be chewing her ARM off at 1500 calories.

Something does NOT sound right.

And I couldn't disagree more with reeffish. Protein is satisfying, protects LBM, and has the highest TEF of all macronutrients. On a calorie-reduced diet, keeping fats and proteins up is paramount. Splitting 1500 calories into 5-6 meals won't make the fat go away. And those cheat weekends may be all that's helping her keep her metabolism from tanking completely - between the very low calories and all that catabolic activity (the cardio) with no heavy lifting and insufficient protein to protect her LBM, well, it's not at all surprising to me that she is not achieving her physique goals.

Get her to track like an anal-retentive fiend on www.fitday.com for a week. Send me the numbers or post them up. We'll get this working for her.

reeffish
11-09-2005, 12:06 PM
We're obviously doing something wrong, but I thought by sheer caloric deficit she'd lose weight.

She can but it will be much more difficult.

As far as looking like a body builder goes... those huge body building women she is talking about are on steroids. It is not easy to get that big, especially for women. Does she think that if she lifts for a month she is going to all of the sudden wake up one day and be huge? If it were only that easy. It takes years of lifting and eating over maintanence calories for a girl to even start looking like a weight lifter.

Trust me, any gains that she gets will come slow enough that she won't ever end up looking like a body builder if she doesn't want to. If she lifts for a year or so and starts to think that she is looking bigger than she wants to, simply take a month off of lifting, and the mass will go away. But my guess is that would never happen.

Wierz
11-09-2005, 12:12 PM
She can but it will be much more difficult.

As far as looking like a body builder goes... those huge body building women she is talking about are on steroids. It is not easy to get that big, especially for women. Does she think that if she lifts for a month she is going to all of the sudden wake up one day and be huge? If it were only that easy. It takes years of lifting and eating over maintanence calories for a girl to even start looking like a weight lifter.

Trust me, any gains that she gets will come slow enough that she won't ever end up looking like a body builder if she doesn't want to. If she lifts for a year or so and starts to think that she is looking bigger than she wants to, simply take a month off of lifting, and the mass will go away. But my guess is that would never happen.

I know all these things, and it will take time to deprogram her (I did have her lifting with me for about 2 months, but she gave up on it). I know all the benefits that will come from her lifting, but it's a matter of getting her to believe me. This is ultimately her choice, and she's the one that's going to have to find the drive to do this. I just wanted to make sure I was on the right page before I tell her she needs to decide how important this is to her. She talks about how unhappy she is about it constantly.

I'll have her track fitday again (the first time it was for 4 weeks). I'll just have to tell her she's going to get out of it what she puts in, and if she wants it bad enough she'll track fitday and come here and get advice. We'll see how that conversation goes tonight. heh

Built
11-09-2005, 12:23 PM
If it is any comfort to her, it took me four YEARS of very careful and deliberate effort to pack on the mass I carry now (yep, all 110 lbs of LBM LOL!) and to build up my MASSIVE 12.5" guns. LOL!
I look muscular because I'm ripped right now. I'll be bulking for the next 4-6 months. Maybe she'll like what I look like when my bodyfat is closer to 20%.
It takes a LOOOONG time to pack on LBM as a natural female, and it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE on a caloric deficit.

I need to write a macro for this:

WEIGHT loss is diet.

FAT loss occurs if you can somehow convince your body to hang on to at least MOST of the muscle while you drop the fat.
Cardio creates a bit more of a caloric deficit, so you don't have to diet quite as hard while you cut. If you do too much cardio, you risk more muscle catabolism than if you simply rely upon the diet and the lifting to do the job.

Light weights do nothing to convince your body that it needs to hang onto any muscle while surviving "the famine" (diet). Neither does cardio. Cardio is basically the same thing as lifting a light load over and over again. The body gets a signal "Oh, she wants me to carry stuff - this pesky muscle is really weighing me down, and we don’t need it for this activity. I'll jettison some of it."

Heavy weights send a different signal: "Oh, there's not enough energy coming in to run all this muscle AND fat. The muscle is eating up a lot more energy than the fat, but she keeps USING the muscle to lift heavy things. We need to keep it. <grumble, grumble…> I guess I'll HAVE to drop some of this fat, even though it IS cheap to run. Hmmm. Gonna have to drop a LOT of it, too… "

Show her this post.

Wierz
11-09-2005, 12:25 PM
Already did. :D

Built = The Answer

Built
11-09-2005, 12:28 PM
Cool.

;)

reeffish
11-09-2005, 12:38 PM
At 5'9" and 156 lbs, she should be chewing her ARM off at 1500 calories.

Something does NOT sound right.

And I couldn't disagree more with reeffish. Protein is satisfying, protects LBM, and has the highest TEF of all macronutrients. On a calorie-reduced diet, keeping fats and proteins up is paramount. Splitting 1500 calories into 5-6 meals won't make the fat go away. And those cheat weekends may be all that's helping her keep her metabolism from tanking completely - between the very low calories and all that catabolic activity (the cardio) with no heavy lifting and insufficient protein to protect her LBM, well, it's not at all surprising to me that she is not achieving her physique goals.

Get her to track like an anal-retentive fiend on www.fitday.com for a week. Send me the numbers or post them up. We'll get this working for her.

5-6 meals definitely is better for metabolism that 3 meals. I agree 1500 calories is low but I doubt that she really is eating only 1500 calories. That is why I asked how long that was tracked for. I don't think we're getting the full story. 3 small meals a day will kill her metabolizism and then if she binges on the weekend, most of that will be stored.

As far as protein goes...

She weighs 71 kilograms so she only needs around 57-85 grams of protein. Most weight lifters would say that is far too little. RDA is 0.8 grams per kilogram.

In the book Power Eating, Susan M. Kleiner, PhD, RD has said that in all of her studies she has never seen anyone that was protein deficient, not even body builders that were 100% vegetarians.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=50900

http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.com/articles/nutrition/protein_2/

You also have to remember that people with not a lot of LBM aren't going to need the same amount of calories as someone with more fat. Someone with 156 pound of LBM is going to need much more calories than someone at 156 who has never lifted. That isn't to say that 1500 isn't low. It probably is especially with that amount of cardio. I just entered her stats into a calorie calculator and it estimated 2200 calories for maintenance for moderate exercise. We also aren't sure what she does for a living - calories burned through the day should be taken into consideration. I'm thinking 1800 would be a good starting point if she has a desk type of job.

1800 calories might seem like nothing to you but if you didn't have the lean body mass that you have, you might find that it is more than you think.

Anthony
11-09-2005, 12:40 PM
Seriously, I've lost count on how many females praise the wonders of weight training when they finally realize they won't turn into Arnold overnight.

Anthony
11-09-2005, 12:42 PM
She weighs 71 kilograms so she only needs around 57-85 grams of protein. Most weight lifters would say that is far too little. RDA is 0.8 grams per kilogram.

The RDA is the lowest amount you should take to avoid deficiancy. It is not ideal for a normal individual and not even close to ideal for an athlete.

:hello:

reeffish
11-09-2005, 12:56 PM
The RDA is the lowest amount you should take to avoid deficiancy. It is not ideal for a normal individual and not even close to ideal for an athlete.

:hello:

Taken from one of the links:

"We have seen in our lab that individuals undergoing endurance training increase their protein needs to about 1 to 1.2 g per kg per day, well above the RDA. In contrast, for subjects performing resistance exercises or weight lifting, the RDA for protein seems to be adequate. In resistance training, you are building up muscle and protein is used more efficiently."

This was pretty much in agreement with what Susan Kleiner wrote in her book Power Eating - very interesting book by the way - which is written for athletes. It is full of case studies that she did with football players, weight lifters etc. One of the consistant things she did with most of them was raise their carb intake to around 60%, with protein around 20%. Then again, they were eating like 5000+ calories so 20% works out to be more than RDA obviously but still most body builders would tell you that 20% protein is way too low.

reeffish
11-09-2005, 01:02 PM
7:00-8:00: Bowl of cereal (Kix usually) and Coffee (2-3 cups) w/ just nonfat creamer.

12:00-1:00: Cup of yogurt, small bag of carrots, 2-3oz of turkey lunch meat, and 2 servings of some cracker (triscuits or saltines usually)

6:00-7:00: Usually chicken breast, 1 serving of a vegetable, and either rice or potato.

I haven't done the math but this looks like quite a bit less than 1500 calories to me... I could be wrong

reeffish
11-09-2005, 01:05 PM
The RDA is the lowest amount you should take to avoid deficiancy. It is not ideal for a normal individual and not even close to ideal for an athlete.

:hello:

Actually a protein deficiency is defined as eating 50%-75% of the daily RDA according to the article I posted.

"Protein should also make up approximately 15% of your total daily caloric intake, also according to the RDA. In a diet of 1,800 calories a day, for example, about 270 of those calories should come from protein. "

"Whether you are an avid strength trainer, a marathon runner, or just an average exerciser, a balanced diet that is rich in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, lean meats, fish, and complex carbohydrates is what nutritionists recommend."

Bob
11-09-2005, 01:12 PM
My wife had a lot of the similiar problems your SO is having... only she is 6 inches shorter.

she lost an initial 15 lbs just doing aerobics after our 2nd kid... but stalled for 6 months @ 155.. and starving herself. So I finally convinced her that Weight training was the key... and that she had to feed her fuel burning machine..

I got the Gunter book for her - GForce - a good book for those imtimidated by BB bodies.. plus it's got a little star power.

She now loves lifting.. she got great tone in her abs and arms... and she is able to eat over 2000 healthy cals a day across 4 meals & 2 snacks... while maintaining a 130lb - 20%BF ... and plus she is much more active with lots of energy. She also has cheat days - but they usually less then 3200 cals stilll - those 1200 cals are a nice dinner out - with dessert.

Although Built looks fantastic - both flexed or unflexed... lifting won't get you there without a LOT of dedication and desire... heck it's not even that easy for us men to look that muscular.

reeffish
11-09-2005, 01:16 PM
This one suggests that according to The American College of Sports Medicine that some people may need as high as 1.6-1.7 grams per kilogram of protein (about 130 grams for a 175 pound person)

But then it goes on to say that this recommendation applies to competitive athletes and "those recommendations may overstate the requirements for many strength trainees. If you train quite intensely, you may want to keep your protein intake close to those levels. Most people who strength train, however, don't require such high levels of protein. For most people who strength train at a subathletic level, approximately 1.0-1.2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight (or about 88 grams of protein for a 175 pound person) should be adequate. The protein requirements of people who strength train are proportional to the intensity of that training, and correctly positioning yourself in a protein-intake continuum that runs from about 1.0 grams per kilogram of body weight on the low end to 1.7 grams per kilogram of body weight on the high end is important to ensure that you get the most bang for your training buck."

Either way most body builders will tell you that 1.7 grams per kilogram isn't even enough. That is only 0.77 grams of protein per pound.

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/25936-6.asp

Anthony
11-09-2005, 01:17 PM
One of the consistant things she did with most of them was raise their carb intake to around 60%, with protein around 20%. Then again, they were eating like 5000+ calories

So they were eating 250g of protein a day. Basically 3x the RDA. Excellent. What point were you trying to make??

reeffish
11-09-2005, 01:18 PM
My wife had a lot of the similiar problems your SO is having... only she is 6 inches shorter.

she lost an initial 15 lbs just doing aerobics after our 2nd kid... but stalled for 6 months @ 155.. and starving herself. So I finally convinced her that Weight training was the key... and that she had to feed her fuel burning machine..

I got the Gunter book for her - GForce - a good book for those imtimidated by BB bodies.. plus it's got a little star power.

She now loves lifting.. she got great tone in her abs and arms... and she is able to eat over 2000 healthy cals a day across 4 meals & 2 snacks... while maintaining a 130lb - 20%BF ... and plus she is much more active with lots of energy. She also has cheat days - but they usually less then 3200 cals stilll - those 1200 cals are a nice dinner out - with dessert.

Although Built looks fantastic - both flexed or unflexed... lifting won't get you there without a LOT of dedication and desire... heck it's not even that easy for us men to look that muscular.

When she first starting lifting and started to lose weight, do you remember how many calories she used to eat?

reeffish
11-09-2005, 01:22 PM
So they were eating 250g of protein a day. Basically 3x the RDA. Excellent. What point were you trying to make??

That is for someone eating a lot of calories. RDA also puts calorie intake around 2000 a day so obviously it isn't ideal for someone with that kind of LBM.

Still, I would bet that most people with enough LBM to eat 5000 calories are eating a lot more than 250g (or 20%) protein.

All I am saying is that a 156 pound girl that has never weight trained and has no interest in preserving LBM (and probably doesn't have much to begin with) doesn't need a ton of protein.

Anthony
11-09-2005, 01:28 PM
That is for someone eating a lot of calories. RDA also puts calorie intake around 2000 a day so obviously it isn't ideal for someone with that kind of LBM.

Still, I would bet that most people with enough LBM to eat 5000 calories are eating a lot more than 250g (or 20%) protein.

All I am saying is that a 156 pound girl that has never weight trained and has no interest in preserving LBM (and probably doesn't have much to begin with) doesn't need a ton of protein.

It seems like you're basing protein recommendations off percentage of total calories, which essentially means nothing. It should be based on LBM or total body weight (for those who like to err on the side of caution).

reeffish
11-09-2005, 01:37 PM
It seems like you're basing protein recommendations off percentage of total calories, which essentially means nothing. It should be based on LBM or total body weight (for those who like to err on the side of caution).

I am actually doing it on both. That is why I said "someone with enough LBM to be eating 5000 calories" The two are kind of related. With lots of LBM, you are going to need more total calories and therefore more protein. I am just suggesting that the diets that are 40%+ protein are a little overkill. Replacing some of that protein with carbs may be healthier and give them more energy. In turn they may get a better workout and grow muscle faster.

But back to the topic, this all started because I said the 156 pound girl is probably getting enough protein in her diet. And because she hasn't ever lifted and has no interest in gaining LBM, I still believe that her protein requirements are going to be lower than what most people are this site are used to.

Built
11-09-2005, 01:53 PM
5-6 meals definitely is better for metabolism that 3 meals.

There is NO scientific evidence to support this. None. I do it because I find it more comfortable, but there’s no other reason for it. On lower calories, some folks do better with fewer meals because they get to at least feel FED a few times a day.



I agree 1500 calories is low but I doubt that she really is eating only 1500 calories. That is why I asked how long that was tracked for. I don't think we're getting the full story. 3 small meals a day will kill her metabolizism and then if she binges on the weekend, most of that will be stored.
Again, not true. And the cheat weekends help the metabolism. I had cheat days/meals/weekends ALL THE WAY THROUGH my cut.

My abs speak for themselves.



As far as protein goes...

She weighs 71 kilograms so she only needs around 57-85 grams of protein. Most weight lifters would say that is far too little. RDA is 0.8 grams per kilogram.

In the book Power Eating, Susan M. Kleiner, PhD, RD has said that in all of her studies she has never seen anyone that was protein deficient, not even body builders that were 100% vegetarians.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=50900

http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.com/articles/nutrition/protein_2/

Never said anything about protein deficiency. I said protein has a higher TEF and is more SATISFYING, and that it will protect what little LBM she has in a hypo-caloric state.




You also have to remember that people with not a lot of LBM aren't going to need the same amount of calories as someone with more fat. Someone with 156 pound of LBM is going to need much more calories than someone at 156 who has never lifted. That isn't to say that 1500 isn't low. It probably is especially with that amount of cardio.

It REALLY is. With the cardio, she’s surviving off somewhere in the range of 1200-1300 calories. This is BAD.




I just entered her stats into a calorie calculator and it estimated 2200 calories for maintenance for moderate exercise.
You really can’t calculate these things, but this is probably fairly close to the mark.




We also aren't sure what she does for a living - calories burned through the day should be taken into consideration. I'm thinking 1800 would be a good starting point if she has a desk type of job.

1800 calories might seem like nothing to you but if you didn't have the lean body mass that you have, you might find that it is more than you think.

1800 was my cutting calories. If her maint is 2200, this will be fine. But not 1500, and not 1500 with all that cardio and no lifting, and CERTAINLY not 1500 with all that cardio, no lifting, and on low protein.


Seriously, I've lost count on how many females praise the wonders of weight training when they finally realize they won't turn into Arnold overnight.
… and then decide they WANT to. <cries>

;)

reeffish
11-09-2005, 02:20 PM
There is NO scientific evidence to support this. None. I do it because I find it more comfortable, but there’s no other reason for it. On lower calories, some folks do better with fewer meals because they get to at least feel FED a few times a day.

I find this really interesting. I have never actually researched that. It was just one of the things that I read everywhere and I've never actually looked into any studies to verify it



Again, not true. And the cheat weekends help the metabolism. I had cheat days/meals/weekends ALL THE WAY THROUGH my cut.

My abs speak for themselves.

Cheat weekends help YOUR metabolizism. That is because you are very low body fat percent already. Leptin levels are easier to maintain with a higher body far percentage. Someone without those abs doesn't need a refeed as often as you might. Also you don't put your body into starvation mode all week like she does before her cheat day. Also, you have the LBM and work out routine down to handle the extra calories of a cheat day. Starvation mode + cheat day + very little LBM + body fat to prevent Leptin levels from getting too low isn't a good combination.



Never said anything about protein deficiency. I said protein has a higher TEF and is more SATISFYING, and that it will protect what little LBM she has in a hypo-caloric state.

I agree completely. Protein is essential. I am not sure what you disagreed with. I never said that protein wasn't essential. I think it is just a question about how much protein is enough to protect her LBM. I think 75 grams of protein a day is enough for her. I just said I think she is probably getting enough protein. This was based on her LBM and the fact that all 3 of her meals posted had protein in them (milk, yogurt, turkey, chicken)



It REALLY is. With the cardio, she’s surviving off somewhere in the range of 1200-1300 calories. This is BAD.

I agree 1500 calories is too low (if she really is only eating 1500 calories), especially with that cardio.



You really can’t calculate these things, but this is probably fairly close to the mark.

1800 was my cutting calories. If her maint is 2200, this will be fine. But not 1500, and not 1500 with all that cardio and no lifting, and CERTAINLY not 1500 with all that cardio, no lifting, and on low protein.

I completely agree that 1800 is probably a better target and that lifting would definitely help. And I agree that being low on protein is a bad thing. I am just not sure if we agree on how much protein qualifies as low on protein. I think she can get by on 75 grams. What do you think her protein target should be?

Built
11-09-2005, 02:44 PM
Again, not talking about how much protein to “get by” – protein is satisfying, and protects LBM.

If she’s got the same LBM as I do (this puts her at about 30% bodyfat, which is probably close to the mark), and she wants to cut, I’d put her at 1800 cals, around 150g protein and about half as much fat. She can tinker with the details, but this will be satisfying, keep insulin levels under control, and protect her LBM and endocrine function. It will eat up about 1300 calories; the rest can be made up of whatever combination of protein, carb and fat she finds comfortable.

reeffish
11-09-2005, 02:49 PM
Again, not talking about how much protein to “get by” – protein is satisfying, and protects LBM.

If she’s got the same LBM as I do (this puts her at about 30% bodyfat, which is probably close to the mark), and she wants to cut, I’d put her at 1800 cals, around 150g protein and about half as much fat. She can tinker with the details, but this will be satisfying, keep insulin levels under control, and protect her LBM and endocrine function. It will eat up about 1300 calories; the rest can be made up of whatever combination of protein, carb and fat she finds comfortable.

I doubt she has near the LBM that you have. How could she, she has never lifted. I agree with what you have said, except the amount of protein needed. From the books and studies I've read and posted, they suggest that amount of protein is not needed, even for building muscle. They also suggest that even though that is what the research shows, that most body builders would disagree with this and they would suggest diets that are much higher in protein. Well I can't be sure who is right about the amount of protein needed but they were right that you would disagree :)

Built
11-09-2005, 03:01 PM
You keep missing the BIGGEST DEAL HERE about the protein: It’s SATISFYING.

The biggest and most important thing to consider here is satiety. If your diet is not satisfying, you won’t stick to it. Protein induces satiety. Carbs are yummy and cheap, but they tend to make you hungry, particularly on lower calories. I don’t CARE if this means she’s eating more protein than she “needs”. It will help her stick to the plan.

If she weighs 156 lbs and has 30% bodyfat (which is likely), she’s got about 110 lbs of LBM. Unless she’s walking around with 40% bodyfat, this is close to the mark. Even if she IS walking around with 40% bodyfat, she’ll still have almost 95 lbs of LBM, and this is EXTREMELY unlikely at her height and weight.

A bigger person, even if fat, will have to have sufficient LBM to support that weight. You have to remember this part.

reeffish
11-09-2005, 03:09 PM
You keep missing the BIGGEST DEAL HERE about the protein: It’s SATISFYING.

Bah, I don't care if it is satisfying or not. :) On a cut, I know what I am supposed to eat and how much... at the end of the day, if I am not satisfied, I just suck it up and live with it. it's about wanting to stay on the diet more than wanting to cheat. But you are right, if willpower is an issue then satisfying is important.... women and their need to be satisfied :rolleyes:

Sorry... just a bad attempt at humour. Don't beat me up.

Built
11-09-2005, 03:32 PM
Hmmm. Suck it up and suffer. Yeah, I’ll get RIGHT on that one...

Dunno about you, but I don’t DO hungry. The worst I’ll get to is “peckish”.

And I won't beat you up. Just hand over that steak and nobody gets hurt.

;)

Built
11-09-2005, 03:33 PM
... and you'll note I COMPLETELY ignored the "women and their need to be satisfied" comment. Even though it is KILLING ME!!!

(Mods, you SEE how well-behaved I can be?)