why don't people use lower doses longer?

[jazer80]

wouldn't a lower dose of anabolics be easier on teh body? and wouldn't you get as much total gain as long as you used the same amount?

[97muscle]

I have wondered the same thing. I had a friend that told me if I took a lower dosage for a longer period of time that it would be easier on the body with similar results. But I have always thought if you haven't researched credible sources that you shouldn't take the chance

[Praetorian]

Whats the point really? If you are going to do AAS, why not do it so you get the full benefit. Like, if you're doing test, after a certain level your gonna shut down your natural test production, so why not just get the maximal benefit in the least amount of time.

just my 2cents

[HILL]

Well without any scientific evidence i would say that people start on a lower dose because its higher than the body is acustomed to. they then increase over time and cycles to higher doses. i belive the purpose of this is that the body can become acustom to what you are giving it as well as being on for a long time makes it harder to recover hence the term cycle and recomended 10-14 week length and all the aruments that go along with cycle length. As far as im aware once you have taken for example 500mg of test for 2 cycles you will not get the same results again even if you perfect your diet more so people up the dose.

[jazer80]

Whats the point really? If you are going to do AAS, why not do it so you get the full benefit. Like, if you're doing test, after a certain level your gonna shut down your natural test production, so why not just get the maximal benefit in the least amount of time.

just my 2cents
can you take enough to raise your testosterone w/o shutting it down? and even if you shut it down, that can't just mean the more the merrier since it's already shut down. it just seems to me that you would get more out fo a given amount of steroids by spreading them out further, and that it woudl be easier on your body.

i've only done 1 single steroid in my life, so i am clueless in this area, jsut a thought i've been kiccking around. just seems like it would be so much safer and easier on you, and having 500% higher test levels for 10 months seems like it would be as effective as 1000% higher for 5 months. of course i could be missing something important here (is there a threshold level for them to be active? i can't imagine so, because the way i understnad it is that it's all relative, like if i had only slightly higher test, it woudl still make a difference in the long run, and if that holds true, it would seem to be the same for synthetic as well)

[smalls]

can you take enough to raise your testosterone w/o shutting it down? and even if you shut it down, that can't just mean the more the merrier since it's already shut down. it just seems to me that you would get more out fo a given amount of steroids by spreading them out further, and that it woudl be easier on your body.

i've only done 1 single steroid in my life, so i am clueless in this area, jsut a thought i've been kiccking around. just seems like it would be so much safer and easier on you, and having 500% higher test levels for 10 months seems like it would be as effective as 1000% higher for 5 months. of course i could be missing something important here (is there a threshold level for them to be active? i can't imagine so, because the way i understnad it is that it's all relative, like if i had only slightly higher test, it woudl still make a difference in the long run, and if that holds true, it would seem to be the same for synthetic as well)

To your first question, No, introducint exogenous anabolic hormones will shut your natty test levels down. Second question, from everything i've seen and done, if you shut down your shut down. There arent many studies done on testing recovery theories based on long cycles vs short, but it seems to depend on the person and the drug much more than the length of use.

And it depends on what side effects your talking about and what steroids. Test alone at low levels wont effect your cholesterol or blood pressure nearly as much as a 17-AA steroid will so staying on 500mg of test for long periods of time probably wont be that detrimental (again depending on the person) but there is also a point where gains will slow to a point it's just not worth it to be on any more.

I'm of the school that if your going to be shut down and kill your hdl levels then do it right. But i'm certainly not that health oriented.

[97muscle]

To your first question, No, introducint exogenous anabolic hormones will shut your natty test levels down. Second question, from everything i've seen and done, if you shut down your shut down. There arent many studies done on testing recovery theories based on long cycles vs short, but it seems to depend on the person and the drug much more than the length of use.

And it depends on what side effects your talking about and what steroids. Test alone at low levels wont effect your cholesterol or blood pressure nearly as much as a 17-AA steroid will so staying on 500mg of test for long periods of time probably wont be that detrimental (again depending on the person) but there is also a point where gains will slow to a point it's just not worth it to be on any more.

I'm of the school that if your going to be shut down and kill your hdl levels then do it right. But i'm certainly not that health oriented.

So are you saying that Test is relatively safe for your average healthy male?

[BCC]

Long low dose is where it's at.

[97muscle]

Long low dose is where it's at.

What do you consider low, what type on AS, how often to cycle, and what should you take with the AS (estrogen control, etc.)

Thanks in advance

[BCC]

Either 300mgs test alone or 300mgs test with 200-300mgs EQ. 20 weeks. 10mgs nolvadex ED.

[smalls]

So are you saying that Test is relatively safe for your average healthy male?


At low doses it's probably the safest thing out there. But still carries dangers with it. Everyone reacts differently, do your research.

[97muscle]

Either 300mgs test alone or 300mgs test with 200-300mgs EQ. 20 weeks. 10mgs nolvadex ED.

What if any side effect have you noticed? I consider myself a pretty healthy person, however my father has had a couple of mild heart attacks and my mother has had a stroke ( I believe that these were probably brought on by drug use, smoking, drinking, etc.) and how much would this cycle cost?

[thetopdog]

Either 300mgs test alone or 300mgs test with 200-300mgs EQ. 20 weeks. 10mgs nolvadex ED.

Damn, that dose sounds extremely low. Is that what you recommend as a first cycle? Or is that something a person of your size and experience would still do today?

[HILL]

At the moment im running 250mg of sust for 20 weeks roughly while on a cut with nolva 10mg ed. the hope is to hold onto as much lbm as possible

[restless]

Either 300mgs test alone or 300mgs test with 200-300mgs EQ. 20 weeks. 10mgs nolvadex ED.


That's what I'm doing now, with an extra 60 mg of anavar.

I don't count weeks though. When I'm done I just go on HRT again...

[97muscle]

Alright, after reading all of the sticky's and some noobs getting flamed for asking stupid questions I think that I may be ready to ask my own.

I think all of my stats are in my journal, but for ease of reference her they are

BW: 174lbs
Height: 6'0"
Age: 23
Lifting Frequency: M-F 5am-6am
Diet: I am not totally sure of caloric intake but I would say easily 3500. Pretty clean, I don't really like junk food.

So would this cycle be the best for me? Either 300mgs test alone or 300mgs test with 200-300mgs EQ. 20 weeks. 10mgs nolvadex ED.

Can you buy the Nolva at any pharmacy?
And is there a certain brand of Test that is recommended?

If these are stupid questions flame away, but I have really tried to research this for about a year and a half or so, I watched the HBO special which I thought was cool. I just can't find much info on the individuals in the show.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

It's ironic that you guys call it the Dark Side, since my name is Luke and people are always doing the whole Darth voice. "Come to the Dark Side Luke"
If they only knew.
:zipit:

[Holto]

97: You look like you are making steady progress without gear.

[97muscle]

That is true, I am just tired of being the small guy and everyone questioning my strength to size ratio. And with the research that I have done, it seems that if done right the advantage to disadvantage ratio is pretty scarce. I haven't committed to anything, just thinking about it.

[97muscle]

I plan to bulk during the winter and see how things go, this will be my first educated bulk so I think that it will prove to be fruitful. I just love to learn about these things so that when and if I do decide to cross over there will be less of a chance that I be blindsided by something.

[JustinASU]

I plan to bulk during the winter and see how things go, this will be my first educated bulk so I think that it will prove to be fruitful. I just love to learn about these things so that when and if I do decide to cross over there will be less of a chance that I be blindsided by something.

It's just nice to see someone with a mature attitude towards juicing. It's so rare on the anabolic forum these days.

[thetopdog]

97 Muscle, I would suggest that if you're not planning on using gear this winter, that you eat like you are and up the protein and calories significantly

[BCC]

What if any side effect have you noticed? I consider myself a pretty healthy person, however my father has had a couple of mild heart attacks and my mother has had a stroke ( I believe that these were probably brought on by drug use, smoking, drinking, etc.) and how much would this cycle cost?

I was on about 300mgs of test for like 6-7 months last year. My HDL (good cholesterol) dropped some and my LDL (bad cholesterol) raised a bit. My total cholesterol was still well under 200. During that time I was using arimidex with no nolvadex though, so that could be in part responsible for the deterioration of my lipids.

[BCC]

Damn, that dose sounds extremely low. Is that what you recommend as a first cycle? Or is that something a person of your size and experience would still do today?

I'm becoming more and more of a believer of low doses the more I've played with my diet. I plan to run cycles of 200-300mgs test along with 300mgs masteron enanthate or 300mgs EQ. Ultimately I would like to never again exceed 600 mgs of test.

[thetopdog]

I'm becoming more and more of a believer of low doses the more I've played with my diet. I plan to run cycles of 200-300mgs test along with 300mgs masteron enanthate or 300mgs EQ. Ultimately I would like to never again exceed 600 mgs of test.

I've seen you post on here about doing some pretty heavy doses in the past, I'm just curious as to what made you change your mind? I'm really interested in this subject, because you obviously have experience and you know what you're talking about

I was under the impression that it would take longer to recover from 20 weeks of test at 300mg than it would to recover from say 12 weeks at 1000mg/week. I always thought that since you're shut down, you might as well make the most of the time you're shut down and run a reasonably large dose (assuming you can handle the sides) but your post is making me rethink this stance

[JSully]

:withstupi

Share the knowledge! :D

[97muscle]

It's just nice to see someone with a mature attitude towards juicing. It's so rare on the anabolic forum these days.

Thanks, I definitely try to research and learn about something before I just jump un head first. I researched creatine since my senior year in high school (2001), and I started taking it on a regular basis in late 2004, and I still research it on a regular basis. And if I do decide to start using gear should I discontinue the creatine, due to the need for H20 or just up my H20 intake?

[97muscle]

I was on about 300mgs of test for like 6-7 months last year. My HDL (good cholesterol) dropped some and my LDL (bad cholesterol) raised a bit. My total cholesterol was still well under 200. During that time I was using arimidex with no nolvadex though, so that could be in part responsible for the deterioration of my lipids.

So if you had it to over again I guess that you would include some Nolva? And with the deterioration of lipids, was there any notable difference in the way you felt? I have heard of a guy that could get this stuff locally but I am just not sure of the brand to ask for. In the sticky about ester there were certain advantages and disadvantages to consider and I am just not sure of a particula brand that has a good release time to allow for a somewhat normal increase in blood levels while giving you the best bang for your buck. And I know this is a pretty wide open question but what should I expect to spend on a cycle, including everything needed for post cycle etc.

Test?
Nolva?
Etc.

[HILL]

its not the brand i think your are maning ester? if so enanthate or cyponaite i believe are recomended for forst cycles as they are longer acting esters and dont have to be injected as regulary. and it depends on your source for prices. off the internet seems hugely exspensive to me. i know some people who pay upto 5-6 english pound per injection maybe more or sust. were as i pay 3.50 per jab. nolva i pay 9 pound per 30 tabs. this can vary widely however as ive said

[97muscle]

its not the brand i think your are maning ester? if so enanthate or cyponaite i believe are recomended for forst cycles as they are longer acting esters and dont have to be injected as regulary. and it depends on your source for prices. off the internet seems hugely exspensive to me. i know some people who pay upto 5-6 english pound per injection maybe more or sust. were as i pay 3.50 per jab. nolva i pay 9 pound per 30 tabs. this can vary widely however as ive said

I don't really understand the per pound cost, but I would conclude that a 16 week cycle would cost roughly

Test= 125.00 @ 4.00 a jab
Nolva= 36pds for 120tabs (if you take one tab a day)

Cycle= 125.00 + 36pds

[HILL]

As im in the uk i pay about £3.50 an injection and £9 pound for 30 tabs of nolva. you will need more nolva for your pct unless your using clomid. so you will need to add this to your cost. Also is ure price based on 2 jabs a week i presume that doesnt look all that expensive especially if its in american dollars as that works out at proberly £2 a jab which is good

[BCC]

So if you had it to over again I guess that you would include some Nolva? And with the deterioration of lipids, was there any notable difference in the way you felt? I have heard of a guy that could get this stuff locally but I am just not sure of the brand to ask for. In the sticky about ester there were certain advantages and disadvantages to consider and I am just not sure of a particula brand that has a good release time to allow for a somewhat normal increase in blood levels while giving you the best bang for your buck. And I know this is a pretty wide open question but what should I expect to spend on a cycle, including everything needed for post cycle etc.

Test?
Nolva?
Etc.

Yeah I would add the nolva. My "deteriorated" lipids were probably better than 70 percent of the population's. I felt no different, I would have never known if I wasn't having blood work done. It wasn't a big deal at all, but I don't want anything moving that direction at my age.

I would just stick with enanthate or cypionate. As to the cost for the nolva and test? That's extremely variable. You could pay anywhere from 15 to 500 depending on who you deal with. I wouldn't pay more than 200 ever.

[Paul Stagg]

I plan to bulk during the winter and see how things go, this will be my first educated bulk so I think that it will prove to be fruitful. I just love to learn about these things so that when and if I do decide to cross over there will be less of a chance that I be blindsided by something.

That's the way to do it. Start reading and learning, and make informed choices.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider using until the 174 in your signature is 200. 220 even.

When you get there, you'll have your training and diet down, and you'll be ready to take full advantage of anything else you want to try.

[97muscle]

Thanks for the great advice, and in reference to the clomid and Nolva statement from HILL, would you say that I need both. And do you actually take this during cycle and post cycle.

BCC: thanks man, I am really glad that you are replying it makes me feel that I am getting some good info.

Stagg: I have been hovering around this weight for a while now and I am just getting real tired of being the small guy, I am continually ridiculed about my size to strength ratio and I would love to see some physical changes along with the strength. I will have to say that I have only recently started eating right and focusing on that aspect of the game, but I am 23 and I would love to put on some weight. Thank you for your reply

[dw06wu]

I will have to say that I have only recently started eating right and focusing on that aspect of the game, but I am 23 and I would love to put on some weight. Thank you for your reply
forget about eating right, just bump your cals by like 1000-2000, be sure to get around 1.5g/lb of protein. I guarantee you will gain weight. 1000-2000 might be a little much for a regular person, but since you have trouble putting on weight then I think it's an appropriate measure.

[97muscle]

Thanks man, eating right = eating alot, sorry I should have clarified that. I have been eating like a freakin hog and loving every minute of it. Once you get passed the fact that you are going to lose some if not all of your definition, then come the joy of knowing that you will get bigger. I will bulk through the winter, which should be easy with all these holidays, and hopefully be closer if not at my goal by spring or early summer.

[Hatred]

Well without any scientific evidence i would say that people start on a lower dose because its higher than the body is acustomed to. they then increase over time and cycles to higher doses. i belive the purpose of this is that the body can become acustom to what you are giving it as well as being on for a long time makes it harder to recover hence the term cycle and recomended 10-14 week length and all the aruments that go along with cycle length. As far as im aware once you have taken for example 500mg of test for 2 cycles you will not get the same results again even if you perfect your diet more so people up the dose.
Sorry Brother, I'm gonna have to disagree with you based on Anecdotal evidence.
As a personal challenge I swore I was going to gain 10bs in the month leading up to vegas.
On 750mgs of test I gained 13lbs in 3 weeks blowing my goal out of the water.
I'm with Chase. I've gotten my best results on a long low dose cycle.
Diet is infinitely important.

[Hatred]

Thanks man, eating right = eating alot, sorry I should have clarified that. I have been eating like a freakin hog and loving every minute of it. Once you get passed the fact that you are going to lose some if not all of your definition, then come the joy of knowing that you will get bigger. I will bulk through the winter, which should be easy with all these holidays, and hopefully be closer if not at my goal by spring or early summer.
Loving every minute of it?
You know you are bulking properly when you actually look forward to a cut.
I was so damn sick and tired of food towards the end.
I used to think Chase was insane saying he looked forward to cutting.
Now I know why.

[HILL]

Your proberly right hatred im doing a 250 mg sust once a week long course now while cutting and even tho i kow im in a calorie deficit enough to be loosing weight im staying the same yet my bf is dropping am going to test it again this week. Maybe their are plus and minuses to both

[97muscle]

Loving every minute of it?
You know you are bulking properly when you actually look forward to a cut.
I was so damn sick and tired of food towards the end.
I used to think Chase was insane saying he looked forward to cutting.
Now I know why.

Well I have been so small for so long that it is nice to see any kind of gain, so at this point I am loving it. And I bet that I will be excited when I start to shred the beef, but until then I am trying to keep a positive attitude about the chub. :zipit:

[Relentless]

Well I have been so small for so long that it is nice to see any kind of gain, so at this point I am loving it. And I bet that I will be excited when I start to shred the beef, but until then I am trying to keep a positive attitude about the chub. :zipit:

If you are hitting 3500 clean calories a day before gear, why not try a month or so of 5000 calories a day, all the while lifting like a madman and see where that gets you?

[97muscle]

If you are hitting 3500 clean calories a day before gear, why not try a month or so of 5000 calories a day, all the while lifting like a madman and see where that gets you?

I have been uping my intake every week so that my body will get acclimated to the added cals, so I should be there soon.

I just had a company feast for Thanksgiving and I think that I just ingested a whole turkey. brrp!!! Man that was probably a 1000 cals or so alone. And I am thinking of going back for more. AAHHHH!! Today will be a glorious day in the Calorie world.

Thanks for the input, and we will see where I am in a month or so, I plan to post some pics (as long as I don't look like the BLOB)

[Shark]

I want to add something to this. The way I think about it, steroid use involves more then just injecting. It takes commitment to a strict diet, exercise, and lifestyle regime. This to me means cutting alcohol consumption down to a minimum. For someone who doesn't have any desire to compete and still wants to live a normal lifestyle a short cycle (10wk) is a reasonable amount of time to get really strict about that stuff. I personally would have trouble really sticking to that kind of lifestyle for 10 months on a low dose of test. At my age and activity level I still like to go out and drink and socialize / not get enough sleep / eat crappy sometimes. Now granted, I also eat fairly clean and live a good lifestyle normally but I just think if you're gonna go on then you need to commit 100%. IMO.

[97muscle]

I want to add something to this. The way I think about it, steroid use involves more then just injecting. It takes commitment to a strict diet, exercise, and lifestyle regime. This to me means cutting alcohol consumption down to a minimum. For someone who doesn't have any desire to compete and still wants to live a normal lifestyle a short cycle (10wk) is a reasonable amount of time to get really strict about that stuff. I personally would have trouble really sticking to that kind of lifestyle for 10 months on a low dose of test. At my age and activity level I still like to go out and drink and socialize / not get enough sleep / eat crappy sometimes. Now granted, I also eat fairly clean and live a good lifestyle normally but I just think if you're gonna go on then you need to commit 100%. IMO.


Thanks for the input, I am not a drinker so that won't be a problem and I would say that my diet is pretty good, although I have been a little less strict since I am bulking and it is the holidays. I will probably not cross over until I reach about 200lbs and really get a good diet plan. Thanks so much for all the info and I will be researching more for sure.

[tony touch]

or you can just stay on for a longer time and still keep doses high....

cruise at lower doses and jus blast during your heavy periods. have fun

[bill]

tony, when people cruise like that... does it shut you down for good?

[Shark]

Not for good. But it does shut you down hard. You have to eventually come off cycle and really detox yourself. I suppose you could also just stay on forever though :evillaugh

[Hatred]

.......if things like horrible bacne appeal to you....
Uugh.
been there done that.

[tony touch]

hatred i feel u on the backne thing....miserable when it hits.

bill-it doesnt shut u down for good but it takes a longer period to recover than from a normal cycleit honestly depends on the person but the shutdown is def more severe. i still like longer cycles lol

[spencerjrus]

hatred i feel u on the backne thing....miserable when it hits.

bill-it doesnt shut u down for good but it takes a longer period to recover than from a normal cycleit honestly depends on the person but the shutdown is def more severe. i still like longer cycles lol



Longer cycles make sense to me though, if you're going to shut down your natural production you might as well take the fullest advantage of it.

[HILL]

after never doing a cycle for longer than 10 weeks i am now doing a 20 week cycle with a lower dose if not longer. Im now seven weeks in cutting on this cycle and my strength is proberly at an all time high im very happy

[BCC]

I've seen you post on here about doing some pretty heavy doses in the past, I'm just curious as to what made you change your mind? I'm really interested in this subject, because you obviously have experience and you know what you're talking about

I was under the impression that it would take longer to recover from 20 weeks of test at 300mg than it would to recover from say 12 weeks at 1000mg/week. I always thought that since you're shut down, you might as well make the most of the time you're shut down and run a reasonably large dose (assuming you can handle the sides) but your post is making me rethink this stance


I totally missed this. I have some things to say about it later when I get home..

[thetopdog]

I totally missed this. I have some things to say about it later when I get home..

OK, thanks bro

[Gabrielle]

in my experience higher doses means better gains, but worse side effects. Everyone is different

[Beast]

I totally missed this. I have some things to say about it later when I get home..
So what's the news?

[bill]

BCC got any more info on this?