Proviron contra Nolvadex

[NoPainNoGain]

Basicly i appreciate any usefull informations related to my topic here. I did lots of research before i created a thread here so hopefully some people here got expierence with BOTH of those. My main question is: allmost everyone here recommends or atleast mentions Nolvadex to prevent gyno. I hardly see anyone talking about Proviron. Now i dont know if that is coz the Proviron is hard to get in the U.S. (im from europe) or just rarely used but from what i have read and from the informations i gathered from several reliable sources Proviron does even a better job then Nolvadex. I will go a little more into detail here now. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Zitrat /20mg a tab) originally was used to thread breast cancer (mainly for women). Male bodybuilders use Nolvadex to prevent gyno. Gyno happens after a cycle to some people since steroids aromatise into estrogens. Now here it gets interesting since it BLOCKS the receptors (especially in the chest, but also in the blood where lots of estrogen is released after a cycle[depending on the individuals more or less]). The blocking is the reason why you have to use Nolvadex over a longer period of time and why it often comes to the so called rebound effects when people simply drop their Nolvadex to early. Rebound effect only happens since the Nolvadex doesnt really prevents the aromatising but still requires the estrogen to catabolize by the human body itself. Proviron(Mesterolon /25mg a tab) instead PREVENTS the steroids from aromatising to estrogens totaly. So the bottom line to me is, considering the above mentioned that Proviron does a better job then Nolvadex (atleast to prevent gyno and additional water storage). The side effects from both (excluding the possible rebound from the
Nolvadex) are pretty small as far as my sources can tell. Any reports on the use of both are appreciated and welcome also info on side-effects that i might not have heard of yet.

So far,

NoPainNoGain

[restless]

Basicly i appreciate any usefull informations related to my topic here. I did lots of research before i created a thread here so hopefully some people here got expierence with BOTH of those. My main question is: allmost everyone here recommends or atleast mentions Nolvadex to prevent gyno. I hardly see anyone talking about Proviron. Now i dont know if that is coz the Proviron is hard to get in the U.S. (im from europe) or just rarely used but from what i have read and from the informations i gathered from several reliable sources Proviron does even a better job then Nolvadex. I will go a little more into detail here now. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Zitrat /20mg a tab) originally was used to thread breast cancer (mainly for women). Male bodybuilders use Nolvadex to prevent gyno. Gyno happens after a cycle to some people since steroids aromatise into estrogens. Now here it gets interesting since it BLOCKS the receptors (especially in the chest, but also in the blood where lots of estrogen is released after a cycle[depending on the individuals more or less]). The blocking is the reason why you have to use Nolvadex over a longer period of time and why it often comes to the so called rebound effects when people simply drop their Nolvadex to early. Rebound effect only happens since the Nolvadex doesnt really prevents the aromatising but still requires the estrogen to catabolize by the human body itself. Proviron(Mesterolon /25mg a tab) instead PREVENTS the steroids from aromatising to estrogens totaly. So the bottom line to me is, considering the above mentioned that Proviron does a better job then Nolvadex (atleast to prevent gyno and additional water storage). The side effects from both (excluding the possible rebound from the
Nolvadex) are pretty small as far as my sources can tell. Any reports on the use of both are appreciated and welcome also info on side-effects that i might not have heard of yet.

So far,

NoPainNoGain


No realiable source would ever suggest proviron is better than nolvadex for gyno. There's not a single documented case of proviron reversing gyno but there are many trials where nolvadex reversed 70-90% of gyno cases. No comparison, maybe proviron does have some effect on estrogen levels, but there's no research anywhere to prove it, so recomending it would be foolish.

[twisteddendrite]

Proviron is an androgen that does not aromatise, it is not an aromatase inhibitor.

[NoPainNoGain]

No realiable source would ever suggest proviron is better than nolvadex for gyno. There's not a single documented case of proviron reversing gyno but there are many trials where nolvadex reversed 70-90% of gyno cases. No comparison, maybe proviron does have some effect on estrogen levels, but there's no research anywhere to prove it, so recomending it would be foolish.
Dont get me wrong its not about reversing gyno its about preventing it totaly for me. I dont got clinic studys either to say im 100% sure but like i said if it was like some bull**** source i would not even have mentioned it here. Anyway thanks for your opinion, you got personal experience with both of those also ?

[NoPainNoGain]

Proviron is an androgen that does not aromatise, it is not an aromatase inhibitor.
If we both talk about the same Proviron(Mesterolon) then i really wonder how you can say that. Go a little more into detail please and back-up ur info a bit if possible. I'd appreciate that.

[rhett2go]

If we both talk about the same Proviron(Mesterolon) then i really wonder how you can say that. Go a little more into detail please and back-up ur info a bit if possible. I'd appreciate that.

this is just part of the article. the rest of it is at www.bodybuilding.com in the steroid profiles.

Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron, but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for DHT in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to DHT by way of the same enzyme when low levels of DHT are detected. But it means that unless one uses ridiculously high amounts, most of what is administered is quite useless at the height of the androgen receptor in muscle tissue and thus mesterolone is not particularly suited, if at all, to promote muscle hypertrophy.

Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

[restless]

Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

Bull****. There's no proof of any of that. Apparently it was once considered as a breast cancer treatment, long time ago, but it was never shown to actually reduce estrogen levels.

[rhett2go]

Bull****. There's no proof of any of that. Apparently it was once considered as a breast cancer treatment, long time ago, but it was never shown to actually reduce estrogen levels.

i didnt write it bro. just pasted it up for ya.

[NoPainNoGain]

Thanks a lot for that post rhett.

[Shark]

So the bottom line to me is, considering the above mentioned that Proviron does a better job then Nolvadex (atleast to prevent gyno and additional water storage).

This is just not true. I read your post but I fail to see how you logically came to this conclusion. Did you do a search on Proviron. I know there have been several posts discussion this compound.

[NoPainNoGain]

This is just not true. I read your post but I fail to see how you logically came to this conclusion. Did you do a search on Proviron. I know there have been several posts discussion this compound.
Yes i did some research on this board also but i could not find anything usefull about my topic. Also meanwhile i found several sources that say to be on the safe side you can do Nolvadex AND Proviron after a cycle. Gimme some input on that idea if possible also. Of course my many sources i got the info from could be wrong but basicly all you can do is gather as much info as possible and then decide urself whats quality and trustworth and whats not, atleast if you didnt tryed the stuff urself like me. So thats what i am tryin to do right now gather info so i appreciate ur input keep going please.

[rhett2go]

This is just not true. I read your post but I fail to see how you logically came to this conclusion. Did you do a search on Proviron. I know there have been several posts discussion this compound.

just as a side note:

Well, to be more detailed, the cost of A-dex was always substantial for years. Nolva (anti-estrogen) and Proviron (Aromatase Inhibitor) was the predesessor to Arimidex and A-dex is a superior AI. Proviron was originally manufactured for early ED (Erectyle Disfunction) and increased sperm count in men. So it worked well with the Pregestorone effects of Deca. (It was good for the "Woody" affect!!) ;o)

I use Proviron in a lot of cycles, it is also a mild anabolic and good with cutting routines.

So in closing, for strength, A-dex is stronger then Nolva/Proviron, but it may not be worth the cost and in a Deca cycle, Proviron offers other abilities.....

[restless]

just as a side note:

Well, to be more detailed, the cost of A-dex was always substantial for years. Nolva (anti-estrogen) and Proviron (Aromatase Inhibitor) was the predesessor to Arimidex and A-dex is a superior AI. Proviron was originally manufactured for early ED (Erectyle Disfunction) and increased sperm count in men. So it worked well with the Pregestorone effects of Deca. (It was good for the "Woody" affect!!) ;o)

I use Proviron in a lot of cycles, it is also a mild anabolic and good with cutting routines.

So in closing, for strength, A-dex is stronger then Nolva/Proviron, but it may not be worth the cost and in a Deca cycle, Proviron offers other abilities.....

Proviron increases libido, the rest is pure speculation on your part. Proviron was never shown to be an AI, please prove me wrong.

[Severed Ties]

Proviron(Mesterolon /25mg a tab) instead PREVENTS the steroids from aromatising to estrogens totaly.

That is simply incorrect. As Restless said there is zero credible research to support half the claims made by the these internet FAQ's regarding Proviron. Proviron is a non-aromatizing androgen and may have similar interactions with estrogen as DHT does but if your using it to prevent gyno you can spend all the money you've saved on a nice bra.

ST

[[[[----]]]]

Here's a lot of information I found that might help in this debate.
Proviron is a synthetic, orally effective androgen which does not have any anabolic characteristics. Proviron is used in school medi-cine to case or cure disturbances caused by a deficiency of male sex hormones. Many athletes, for this reason, often use Proviron at the end of a steroid treatment in order to increase the reduced testoster-one production. This, however, is not a good idea since Proviron has no effect on the body's own testosterone production but-as men-tioned in the beginning-only reduces or completely eliminates the dysfunctions caused by the testosterone deficiency. These are, in par-ticular, impotence which is mostly caused by an androgen deficiency that can occur after the discontinuance of steroids, and infertility which manifests itself in a reduced sperm count and a reduced sperm quality. Proviron is therefore taken during a steroid administration or after discontinuing the use of the steroids, to eliminate a possible impotency or a reduced sexual interest. This, however, does not con-tribute to the maintenance of strength and muscle mass after the treatment. There are other better suited compounds for this (see HCG, Clomid, and Teslac). For this reason Proviron is unfortunately considered by many to be a useless and unnecessary compound.

You should be aware that Proviron is also an estrogen antagonist which prevents the aromatization of steroids. Unlike the antiestrogen Nolvadex which only blocks the estrogen receptors (see Nolvadex) Proviron already prevents the aromatizing of steroids. Therefore gynecomastia and increased water retention are successfully blocked. Since Proviron strongly suppresses the forming of estrogens no re-bound effect occurs after discontinuation of use of the compound as is the case with, for example, Nolvadex where an aromatization of the steroids is not prevented. One can say that Nolvadex cures the problem of aromatization at its root while Nolvadex simply cures the symptoms. For this reason male athletes should prefer Proviron to Nolvadex. With Proviron the athlete obtains more muscle hard-ness since the androgen level is increased and the estrogen concen-tration remains low. This, in particular, is noted positively during the preparation for a competition when used in combination with a diet. Female athletes who naturally have a higher estrogen level of-ten supplement their steroid intake with Proviron resulting in increased muscle hardness. In the past it was common for body-builders to take a daily dose of one 25 mg tablet over several weeks, sometimes even months, in order to appear hard all year round. This was especially important for athletes' appearances at guest performances, seminars and photo sessions. Today Clenbuterol is usually taken over the entire year since possible virilization symp-toms cannot occur which is not yet the case with Proviron. Since Proviron is very effective male athletes usually need only 50-mg/ day which means that the athlete usually takes one 25 mg tablet in the morning and another 25 mg tablet in the evening. In some cases one 25 mg tablet per day is sufficient. When combining Proviron with Nolvadex (50 mg Proviron/day and 20 mg Nolvadex/day) this will lead to an almost complete suppression of estrogen. Even better results are achieved with 50 mg Proviron/ day and 500 - 1000 mg Teslac/day. Since Teslac is a very expensive compound (see Teslac) most athletes do not consider this com-bination.

The side effects of Proviron in men are low at a dosage of 24 tab--lets/day so that Proviron, taken for example in combination with a steroid cycle, can be used comparatively without risk over several weeks. Since Proviron is well-tolerated by the liver, liver dysfunc-tions do not occur in the given dosages. For athletes who are used to acting under the motto "more is better" the intake of Proviron could have a paradoxical effect. The most common side effect of Proviron is a distinct sexual overstimulation and in some cases continuous penis erection. Since this condition can be painful and lead to possible damages, a lower dosage or discontinu-ing the compound are the only sensible solutions. Female athletes should use Proviron with caution since possible androgenic side ef-fects cannot be excluded. Women who want to give Proviron a try should not take more than one 25 mg tablet per day. Higher dosages and periods of intake of more than four weeks considerably increase the risk of virilization symptoms. Female athletes who have no dif-ficulties with Proviron obtain good results with 25 mg Proviron/ day and 20 mg Nolvadex/day and, in combination with a diet, re-port an accelerated fat breakdown and continuously harder muscles.

Proviron is one of the very few steroid hormones which is still suf-ficiently available. The usual price is about $1 per tablet on the black market. All Proviron tablets have one thing in com-mon: they are all indented and on the back have the stamp AX, surrounded by a hexagon.

Sources: AnabolicReview.com

[NoPainNoGain]

That is simply incorrect. As Restless said there is zero credible research to support half the claims made by the these internet FAQ's regarding Proviron. Proviron is a non-aromatizing androgen and may have similar interactions with estrogen as DHT does but if your using it to prevent gyno you can spend all the money you've saved on a nice bra.

ST

Hehe, im not yet using anything at all. And the $ aint nothing to me. Its not about saving to me its about getting the best available.


@ [[[----]]]

I'd really like to know where you got the first summary from you've posted since its the first source ( atleast that i see/find ) that says Proviron is pretty useless. The second summary is from the book of M.Bachmann if im correct.

EDIT: Nvm, i didnt saw the last line where it says "Sources: ... " my fault >_<

Thanks so far for all the input from everyone.

[macro]

proviron is NOT an aromatase inhibitor

Nolva can actually worsen gyno with progestins

Nolva is not good PCT for someone that is highly suppressed (clomid is)

reccomended aromatase inhibitors
aromasin or AIFM

Letrozole is the most potent but tends to cause estrogen deprivation sides

[macro]

as a note- proviron does increase free DHT and free T, and may modulate ER expression (which DHT does). So it does have androgenic effects (primary and secondary) that can shift ratio of free androgens to estrogens in a positive fashion.