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Votorx
11-20-2005, 04:20 PM
I don't see how I'm gonna be able to eat that much. I'm a big kid as it is, I've never tracked how many calories I take in, but I'm pretty sure its under 2500. So...how would eatin more, actually help me lose fat and help cut myself?

For breakast I don't usually have anything but a bottle of water
Lunch is a sandwich, ham cheese and turkey, more water and small snack, maybe chips
And Dinner is usually rice, beans, and some kind of meat.

So, is eating more calories actually gonna help? If so then what should I eat so I won't get more weight? Anyone have a link or somethin where I can see a good diet to follow?

Built
11-20-2005, 04:23 PM
Go to www.fitday.com

Enter a "typical" day's food

Post up what your macros are.

We'll take it from there.

Geeper
11-20-2005, 04:48 PM
Follow Built's advice, 2500 calories is nothing, I think you will be surprised if you track EVERYTHING that goes in your mouth through the day. (Count liquids too!)
Today was a cheat day and I ate "normal" food and racked up 5200 calories not even really cheating that much... Special K, milk, spaghetti, Kraft Dinner, a sandwich and a few snacks and suddenly it was 5200 calories.

Kayo
11-20-2005, 05:13 PM
dude....2500 calories is easy to make...footlong oven roasted chicken breast with nothing on it at subway is 600 right there. and things like Milk,pasta and beans are just full of calories

Votorx
11-20-2005, 05:26 PM
Calories Eaten Today
source grams cals %total
Total: 1668
Fat: 40 357 23%
Sat: 14 130 8%
Poly: 8 72 5%
Mono: 14 128 8%
Carbs: 246 916 58%
Fiber: 17 0 0%
Protein: 77 308 20%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%


Dahm...that's alot of carbs...

Votorx
11-20-2005, 05:27 PM
Yea, after puttin that in and seeing how many cals it is, it doesn't seem like alot at all. But how is me eating more cals gonna help. But looking at that I deffinetly need to cut back on carbs...what should I aim towards eating then?

Built
11-20-2005, 05:36 PM
protein and fat I guess.

tigo
11-20-2005, 05:39 PM
you need more protein and waayyy more fat. try to triple the protein and fat intake and cut the carbs by 75% or so

i think the problem you have is probably metabolic.. considering youre caloric intake is lower than mine..youre eating so little that your metabolism is probably crawling..

edit..
the more you eat the bigger and stronger you muslces can get
this in turn speeds up your metabolism, helping drop fat.

if you go on a deficit this low youre going to eat away at muscle

MrWebb78
11-20-2005, 05:46 PM
2500 cals?? i have that by 10AM

Slim Schaedle
11-20-2005, 06:00 PM
Calories Eaten Today
source grams cals %total
Total: 1668
Fat: 40 357 23%
Sat: 14 130 8%
Poly: 8 72 5%
Mono: 14 128 8%
Carbs: 246 916 58%
Fiber: 17 0 0%
Protein: 77 308 20%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%


Dahm...that's alot of carbs...
No, it's not

But looking at that I deffinetly need to cut back on carbsHow can you say that you don't think eating more will help you cut fat, but then claim that you need to cut carbs? I don't think you know your body well enough.

Built
11-20-2005, 06:01 PM
It's not that it's a lot of carbs, it's just that we don't see a whole lot of anything else.

Slim Schaedle
11-20-2005, 06:09 PM
So, is eating more calories actually gonna help? Anyone have a link or somethin where I can see a good diet to follow?
I'll put this into perspective somewhat...I weigh 65 lbs less than you and I eat more than double the amount of your carbs and about 5 times your protein and I'm still cutting fat. That's not a scientific answer, but it will do for now.

Poirot
11-20-2005, 06:31 PM
So whats the suggested amount of calories one should take in? I thought I was doing good at around 3.6k today lol..now I read others doing 5k.

Built
11-20-2005, 06:32 PM
However many calories YOU need depends on your body.

If you're getting the results you want, you're good.

If not, change.

Votorx
11-20-2005, 06:50 PM
So I should eat more to raise my metabolism then? Cut the carbs and more calories?

Built
11-20-2005, 06:51 PM
Nobody can tell you what your body needs, other than some generalities like "eat enough protein" and "eat enough fat".

Monitor your food, see what happens to your body.

DoUgL@S
11-20-2005, 07:03 PM
It sounds like you are not willing to put in the effort to make an educated decision, and want "the answer" to your weightloss dilema. You need to learn your body and how it reacts to food i.e. your maintenance calories, how macronutrient manipulation affects YOU. A little bit of effort on your part will do loads more for you than getting the anwers from the diet gurus in this forum.

You are a big guy, it sounds like you are not eating enough, but that is an assumption, but I do not know you. It sounds like you are not getting enough protein of healthy fats, again an assumption, but then again I do not know you.

Votorx
11-20-2005, 07:07 PM
lol, if I had the time I would be more than willing to make the effort. But I don't, which is why I'm tryin hard to find a pretty quick solution for a good diet. I'm tryin to lose this weight and get cut before March but it doesn't look like its going to happen. I do happen to have a very slow metabolism and probably do undereat seeing as I don't have breakast .

Built
11-20-2005, 07:11 PM
I want a quick solution, too.

And magic beans.

Lemme know when you find 'em - I want to get in on that deal!

Hon, you want what we all want.

Sadly, it doesn't exist.

Do your research, track your food on fitday. We all have to do this. You're not so special.

;)

Okay?

DoUgL@S
11-20-2005, 07:12 PM
OK here is the generic answer.

IF you have a slow metabolism you should eat 12 cals per lb of bodyweight. Minimum of 1g of protein and 0.5g of fat per lb of bodyweight, fill in the rest with watever you want. So for you:

3060 calories, 255 g protein, 128 g of fat, and 222 g of carbs.

If is works great, if it doesn't then you are back to square one. Good luck

Dont forget to eat your veggies and your magic beans. ;)

Votorx
11-20-2005, 07:14 PM
ahh yes, but ya can't blame me for trying. lol do you think i'll have enough time to track my food, come up with a good diet and get cut before March?

Votorx
11-20-2005, 07:15 PM
Aight thanks douglas I'll try that out, and hopefully it'll work

Votorx
11-20-2005, 07:17 PM
255 grams of protein...yeah I'm kinda off

Slim Schaedle
11-20-2005, 07:21 PM
So I should eat more to raise my metabolism then? Cut the carbs and more calories?
Why are you so concerned with carbohydrate elimination?

Votorx
11-20-2005, 07:23 PM
Because I want to lose weight, and shouldn't I have less carbs to do that?

Built
11-20-2005, 07:23 PM
The only real issue with carbs is that they CAN make you hungry (everyone is different in this regard), and they're a non-essential nutrient, so if they do, cut 'em back a bit; target 'em around your lifts.

Votorx
11-20-2005, 07:25 PM
Well, my appetite isn't the problem, and Im sure I can eat more if I have too, I just didn't understand how eating more would make me lose weight, but it makes sense now when I look at it in a metabolic point of view.

Slim Schaedle
11-20-2005, 07:26 PM
Because I want to lose weight, and shouldn't I have less carbs to do that?
You obviously did not read into my post where I pointed out my double carb intake compared to yours and that I am losing fat, despite the fact that I weigh 65 lbs less than you....and the part where you don't seem to now your body.

No, you don't have to cut carbs super low to lose weight, or fat. My point about knowing your body is that people respond to different things.

Votorx
11-20-2005, 07:31 PM
I did read it, but when you tell me one thing, then another person (albanat0r) tells me the exact opposite (That I SHOULD cut my carbs by 75%), things get a little confusing. But I get what your saying, and I need to learn about my body more.

Built
11-20-2005, 07:33 PM
You don't NEED the carbs - they're non-essential. On a diet, keep protein and fat up, drop extra cals from carb if you don't have any room to drop them from protein or fat.

Just keep your minimums for p and f, and the rest can land wherever you're comfortable.

Jorge Sanchez
11-20-2005, 07:37 PM
I think you need to reevaluate your "typical daily intake". I don't know too many people who can get to 255lbs on 1668kcals.

Slim Schaedle
11-20-2005, 07:42 PM
I think you need to reevaluate your "typical daily intake". I don't know too many people who can get to 255lbs on 1668kcals.
He wants to lose 30 lbs, so assumption would say he is naturally big and has genetics to be big despite the lack of insane calorie intakes that some others require to gain weight.

There are many people like that.

Votorx, correct me if I'm wrong

MM
11-20-2005, 07:46 PM
Hey Slim, what are you weighing round these days? How's the training going?

Votorx
11-20-2005, 08:04 PM
yea I am naturally big and I'm not lying, that's exactly how much I eat and that's what I have been eating, and I am 255 lbs.

Slim Schaedle
11-20-2005, 08:05 PM
Hey Slim, what are you weighing round these days? How's the training going?
Still around 190. (my avatar pic is when I was 180) Doing the whole slow bulk, then light cut thing. From 205 last spring to 185 in summer, then back to about 192ish, now cutting down a little for a little photo shoot thing I got going on. After Dec. 16 I should have some good pics. I'm losing good amount of fat but still maintaining weight. Still making gains on lifts every single workout too.

csd123
11-21-2005, 02:55 PM
OK here is the generic answer.

IF you have a slow metabolism you should eat 12 cals per lb of bodyweight. Minimum of 1g of protein and 0.5g of fat per lb of bodyweight, fill in the rest with watever you want. So for you:

3060 calories, 255 g protein, 128 g of fat, and 222 g of carbs.

If is works great, if it doesn't then you are back to square one. Good luck

Dont forget to eat your veggies and your magic beans. ;)

I'm trying to use this info for my body weight, where did you get the 222 carbs from? I currenly take in 388 carbs out of a 2264 cal diet. I am changing it with Getfit, but can't find out how to come up with a target for carb intake. I am 6', 220lbs, slow metabolism.

Built
11-21-2005, 03:01 PM
There IS no target for carb intake.

Start with the cals you want to take in.

Subtract the cals from protein you need (at least 1g/lb LBM), and the cals from fats you need (at least 0.5g/lb LBM). The rest of your calories can be made up of any combination of protein, carb and fat you find comfortable.

Slim Schaedle
11-21-2005, 03:53 PM
and the cals from fats you need (at least 0.5g/lb LBM).
Built, curious where you got the 0.5 g/lb LBM fat requirement from?

Built
11-21-2005, 04:09 PM
See the link in my cutting diet, Slim.

**Dorgan J, et al. Effects of dietary fat and fiber on plasma and urine androgens and estrogens in men: a controlled feeding study. Am J Clin Nutr 64(6): 850-855. 1996.

I first read about this here. (http://ruggedmag.com/index.php?type=Article&i=2&a=6)

It's to optimize test production, at least in males.

In practice, for most people on maintenance calories, this seems to work out to the mythical "30% of cals from fat" you often see suggested by dieticians and the like.

For example, my maint. cals are about 2000 a day. About 110 lbs of LBM. This works out to 55g fat, or about 25% of total cals.

HelpMeLift
11-21-2005, 05:04 PM
yeah man you definitely need to consume more calories. i'm about 100 lbs less than you but i eat like twice as much, and trust me i don't have a fast metabolism either.

**** and for lifting only a little over a year and squatting 585 and benching 345, that's freaking impressive man!

csd123
11-21-2005, 05:39 PM
Thanks for the reply, built, that helps.

Votorx
11-21-2005, 07:46 PM
Thanks alot helpmelift.

Ok...I tried out a meal plan. This being my first one I need a little help on it. I was able to reach my Protein Mark and my calorie mark, but im still way under my fat mark and a little over my carb mark. Well here it is anyways, tell me what ya think and what i should change:

Meal 1: Upon waking (Before workout 1 approx 4:00 AM)
3 egg whites
2 100% whole wheat bread (toasted)
1 pack of Quaker instant oatmeal cereal

Meal 2: After Workout 1 before School begins (approx 7:00 AM)
1 Apple
1 Bagel
1 Pack of Apple Juice

Meal 3: Beginning of Block 2 About 2 hours after meal 2
1 Roast beef Sandwhich on 100% whole wheat bread with provolone cheese
1 protein bar

Meal 4: Lunch D about 2 hours after meal 3 and 2 hours before workout 2
1 Roast beef sandwhich on 100% whole wheat bread with provolone cheese
1 can of tuna
A large protein Shake (Completed with 2 scoops Whey Protein Gold Standard 40 G, 1 Bannana, 1/2 Apple, 2% Milk, 4 table spoons of pineapple, crushed ice, fat free ice cream)
1 protein bar
1 energy drink

Meal 5: Right after workout 2
A large protein Shake (Similar to the one in Meal 4)
A bannana (probably)

Meal 6: "Dinner" (Varies from day to day)
3 Chicken Legs, Salad
or
2 (maybe 3) chicken breasts
or
2 canadian style bacon
or
Pheasant (yeah...)
or
More Tuna!

Yeah Im not too sure what othave with Meal 6 yet, I'm just gonna see how I feel each day.

Calories Eaten Today
source grams cals %total
Total: 2903
Fat: 95 855 30%
Sat: 43 391 14%
Poly: 12 106 4%
Mono: 30 269 10%
Carbs: 247 894 32%
Fiber: 24 0 0%
Protein: 267 1069 38%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%

If you include the protein shake its about 307 grams of protein
Include the protein bars and it should be over 320 grams of protein (I don't know how much protein they have).

Yeah Im not too sure what to have with Meal 6 yet, I'm just gonna see how I feel each day.

Btw, thanks for you help

Built
11-21-2005, 07:54 PM
Meal 1 needs more protein.

Meal 2: ditch the apple juice, get in some whey.

Meal 3: ditch the protein bar, eat some peanuts and almonds and an apple with your sandwich.

Meal 4: ditch the protein bar, have some natural peanut butter on the banana or on an apple (totally yummy, and I always recommend it because I appear to have a peanut butter on apple fetish)

One more meal: bedtime, cottage cheese and natural peanut butter.

Eat a few vegetables in there somewhere, okay?

:)

Nongan
11-21-2005, 08:06 PM
lol, i thought the same exact thing when I started to lift: "How the heck am I suppossed to eat that much!?!?!?!". I generally try to eat 5 meals a day, but it's hard. Generally, I eat 4 eggs scrambled mixed w/ 1/2 cup or 1 cup of low fatcottage cheese, then for a second meal, I eat a part of a chicken breast w/ some olive oil, then I eat a normal lunch (sandwich, chips, milk, yogurt), then a shake when I get home from school, and then I eat a normal dinner, and I'm seeing good gains. Granted it's not the best diet, but it works fine for me, and it works around my hectic schedule (school, work, high level soccer).

Votorx
11-21-2005, 08:33 PM
Ahh the only problem is I can't eat peanuts. And the apple juice just comes with the school's free breakfast so I just down it.

Votorx
11-21-2005, 08:34 PM
What do ya recommend for meal 1?

Nongan
11-21-2005, 09:04 PM
for meal 1, i'd do something like: 4 whole eggs scrambled, with 1 cup low fat cottage cheese mixed in, just cook the cottage cheese with the eggs. then you can keep the toast if you want. that should get you some decent protein. if not, try mixing some vanilla whey with orange juice. its suprisingly good.

Votorx
11-21-2005, 09:07 PM
cottage cheese eh? I'll give it a try.

Nongan
11-21-2005, 09:09 PM
yeah, i dont like cottage cheese plain, it tastes disgusting in my opinion, so mix it in with your eggs, and you dont taste it, it just makes the eggs fluffier and lighter.

DoUgL@S
11-21-2005, 10:46 PM
I'm trying to use this info for my body weight, where did you get the 222 carbs from? I currenly take in 388 carbs out of a 2264 cal diet. I am changing it with Getfit, but can't find out how to come up with a target for carb intake. I am 6', 220lbs, slow metabolism.

Sorry it took so long to respond. Everyone pretty much answered it, but he wanted a simple answer and likes his carbs, so after the essentials I filled in the rest of the calories with carbs.

What is your breakdown like? Getting 70% of your cals from carbs seems like your probably not eating alot of protein and fat.

Votorx
11-22-2005, 10:38 AM
Ahh its third block now, using the computer and decided to come on for a second. I just having luch (finished Meal 4 without the protein bar or energy drink), and I'm freaken stuffed as hell. Its gonna be a while to get used too :spam:

reeffish
11-22-2005, 01:32 PM
A lot of sources that I have read (other than from body builders on forums) suggests going over 1.6-1.8 grams of protein per kg of muscle mass will not help build more muscle. Most have quotes like this: "Since protein provided at a level above 1.5 grams per kilogram of body weight is likely to be stored as fat or burned as a fuel, there is no anabolic or ergogenic advantage to high levels of high protein intake."

Some sites say 1.2-1.8 for weight trainers, others go as high as 2.0-2.2 grams per kg. They also suggest that you need anywhere from 5-12 grams of carbs per kg (depending on how much exercise you really are doing) and then to make up the rest of your caloric intake with fats. At 255, you weigh 116 kg. This would mean about 210 g of protein (at 1.8g) and 550-1200 g of carbs. Of course these need to be clean carbs from good food sources that have lots of fiber (not pure sugars like in juice). This seems like a lot of carbs to me though and would put you around 3500-5000 calories - but that is what a lot of the people with the PhD's are saying...

As far as fat goes, most that I have read suggest that it is hard to not get enough fat in our diets and have quotes like this: "Some 'diets' suggest that increasing fat intake is good for athletic performance. In fact, all the good studies strongly suggest that higher carbohydrate intake and lower fat intake are important for optimizing athletic performance. So, don't be taken in by the fad diets. Eat a reasonably lower fat diet with plenty of carbohydrates to fuel activity." and "Dietary Fat: As is the case with protein, no consensus exists about exactly how much dietary fat an athlete needs. Like other adults, athletes should limit fat intake to no more than 30% of total calories and should include at least 4 grams of omega 3 fatty acids in their daily diet. It is important for athletes to remember that dietary fat slows digestion, so the best pre-event meals contain mostly carbohydrates and little or no dietary fat."

The truth is nobody really agrees. Especially the body builders on these types of sites and the people out there doing diet research. I am not saying which one is right, just trying to give an overall look at the opinions out there.

Links on carb intake:

http://www.sportsci.org/news/compeat/grams.html
http://www.cruciblefitness.com/nutrition/etips/carb_recomendation_training.htm
http://www.dietsite.com/dt/sportsnutrition/NutrientsAthletes/nutrients_2.asp
http://www.drugfreesport.com/choices/nutrition/carbohydrate.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11310548&dopt=Abstract
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/1012.htm
http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_1/the-truth-behind-the-atki.shtml
http://www.ais.org.au/nutrition/documents/FactCHO.pdf
http://69.94.64.50/poweringmuscles.com/article.php?article_id=84
http://health.iafrica.com/dietonline/lifestyle/465453.htm

links on Protein:
http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Protein.html
http://www.drugfreesport.com/choices/nutrition/protein.html
http://www.medicdirectsport.com/athletictraining/default.asp?step=4&pid=440
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/Protein.htm
http://btc.montana.edu/olympics/nutrition/eat11.html
http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/caryn/protein.html
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/414351
http://www.wlinfo.com/special_protein_needs_of_athlete.htm
http://www.jdssportcoaching.com/protein.html

fat:

http://www.foodandsport.com/fat.htm
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=specialneed&dbid=10
http://btc.montana.edu/olympics/nutrition/eat12.html
http://www.humankinetics.com/products/showexcerpt.cfm?excerpt_id=3184
http://www.naturalstrength.com/nutrition/detail.asp?ArticleID=1120
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0675/is_3_17/ai_54756724

Built
11-22-2005, 03:06 PM
I go by comfort.

As long as protein and fat are sufficient, and cals are sufficient for my goals, I pick a mix that keeps me comfortable.

And although there are lots of studies done on athletic performance, not a whole lot of scientific study goes into "bulking" levels of calories - there's just not a ton of interest in this area in the scientific community.

csd123
11-22-2005, 03:42 PM
Sorry it took so long to respond. Everyone pretty much answered it, but he wanted a simple answer and likes his carbs, so after the essentials I filled in the rest of the calories with carbs.

What is your breakdown like? Getting 70% of your cals from carbs seems like your probably not eating alot of protein and fat.


I was waaaaay off. I was shocked when I put my diet into fitday. I was at 40 fat, 95 protein, and 388 carbs. I really thought I was eating well. I am revamping my diet now and I am up to 101 fat, 247 protein, and 261 carbs -total intake being 2913.
It's no wonder wht I havn't gotten the results I wanted, I cut out all sugar and snacks and probably ended up doing more harm, than good.

Built
11-22-2005, 03:46 PM
Isn't it a shocker when you actually SEE what all you're eating?