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ElPietro
01-03-2002, 08:17 AM
Ok I haven't been able to get much info on Isometric diets. Basically it seems to me to just break down your macros into roughly similar levels.

I was thinking of doing 30/40/30, no I don't necessarily know why, but I think it may work. If you foos can disprove me the by all means.

I think I will go with a 2500 cal diet which would lead to a breakdown as follows:

2500 @ 30% = 750 = 187.5g
@ 40% = 1000 = 250.0g
@ 30% = 750 = 83.33g

Protein sources will be mainly from chicken, red meat, cottage cheese, and shakes/bars.

Haven't decided on a "best" method to regulate carb intake yet. I'm browsing some low-carb forum and trying to get some good ideas there.

Fat intake I think I will not need to focus on as much other than making sure it's from a good source.

Basically, I'd like to make it a goal to drop about 20lbs in the next 2-3 months.

Any added suggestions would be welcome including food sources if you have any that may not be too obvious.

Paul Stagg
01-03-2002, 08:35 AM
Looks reasonable.

ElPietro
01-03-2002, 02:38 PM
Damnit. I bought some brown rice pasta today thinking i was smart and it would be a better source of carbs, since I assumed it would be due to extra fibre. But now that I fooking check it has a GI Index of 92 while regular spaghetti is 40! :mad:

*grumble*

Severed Ties
01-03-2002, 04:10 PM
GI is really garbage since eating anything else with that food changes the GI number. The insulin index is a much better guide for food choices.

I really think the world has been brainwashed into carb-a-phobia. The only carb that really need to be completely avoided is man made processed crap (high fructose corn syrup).

carbs won't make you fat, lack of portion control will make you fat. Their is nothing wrong with a whole wheat pancake or 2 with breakfast or a cup-cup and 1/2 of pasta with another meal. This concept has gotten lost since the average person goes to IHOP and orders a stack of 15, drowns them in syrup and then proclaims that carbs make them fat.

Coming from an Italian family the same thing happens with pasta, Once I started monitering my portion size I realized that what most people consider a plate of pasta, is closer to 4-5 servings of pasta, and allas a great mistery was solved much like how the pyramids were built.

ElPietro brown rice pasta is much better carb choice than regular pasta, think about it most brands of pasta are just as devoid of any nutritional value as white bread.

Also someone now makes a pasta that is fortified with whey protein, mind you I have no idea how it tastes.

ST

Tryska
01-03-2002, 05:01 PM
i disagree.

actually no. i don't disagree. carbs will not MAKE you fat, no. they can certainly hinder you losing fat though.

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-03-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Tryska
i disagree.

actually no. i don't disagree. carbs will not MAKE you fat, no. they can certainly hinder you losing fat though.

I said the exact same thing in another post.

Tryska
01-03-2002, 05:14 PM
(*lol* i know..i saw that right after i posted this one.

get off my brainwave, this is the only one i've got.

ElPietro
01-03-2002, 08:50 PM
Tryska, I'm not quite sure what you just said there. Wait I understand what you just said there. ;)

Well, I've started using fitday.com today just as a well planned way to keep track of my eating habits for a couple weeks until I can adhere to a routine that coincides with my goals.

*rant* :mad:

Anyway, I'm slightly disgusted by how far off my diet I was today.

Ok heres the macros I consumed...

1642 @ 19% = 285 = 85g
@ 61% = 936 = 234g
@ 20% = 312 = 35g

This will not do. Although, yeah I want to lose some weight this will be the equivalent to starving myself I believe...

Although I am almost right on for my protein, my fat and carbs were way low. I bought some natty pb today so I shouldn't have a big prob adjusting fat...and I haven't had any flax today...normally I would. Carbs will have to be figured out. The bad thing about this is that the more I think about it 2500 cals is probably quite low as well. I should be closer to 3000 cals, but I'll stick to a range of 2500-3000 as a guide.

ElPietro
01-03-2002, 08:52 PM
Oh, ST i'll look into the insulin index tomorrow. I was using one of the tables on a diabetes site so they will prolly have other measurements. If you have any good research you could post or a link that would be cool too. Thanks.

Severed Ties
01-03-2002, 10:38 PM
Off hand I don't have link to an insulin index, just type it into any search engine and it will get you a few links.

ST

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-04-2002, 09:49 AM
I agree that the GI is not the be-all, end-all.

infact, the GI uses a 50g carbohydrate serving of foods which is it's major flaw. yes, it makes it a fair test using equal amounts, but who the world eats an apple [for instance] that has 50g carbs?! quite unrealistic eh?

BTW, for anyone who doesn't know, the insulin score [IS] is a ratio based on insulin levels found over 2 hours after consuming a 1000kJ meal of the test food, to a 1000kJ meal of white bread.

I reckon it has potential, but they've only got results for 38 foods.

they need more research before i'll settle though.

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-04-2002, 10:59 AM
oh, and another readon the GI = crap is cause there's so many factros that can influence it.

ElPietro
01-04-2002, 11:14 AM
Insulin response and carb intake is still one of the few things that seem to stump me though. It seems like there are a ton of threads...CD you started many of em ;) but nothing rarely gets decided on where everyone agrees.

I have done a few searches and have read a lot where it seems like the answer is close...but then it degenerates into a flaming war.

I'm still trying to formulate a very specific macro breakdown for post workout shake/meals from a view of trying to cut fat. There is a lot on bulking and pure muscle preservation, but on the opposite end there isn't as much.

If I'm on a 30/40/30 diet plan I'd think that my body wouldn't be too insulin sensitive...but I could be wrong. Should I take a mix of carb/protein/fat after working out. I'd think fat should be restricted after workout as insulin will allow that fat to go directly to the cells which is pretty much the opposite of what I'd want. Would I want carbs at all? Do I want to replenish glycogen levels right away? Or would I rather stay depleted and continue using fat as a primary fuel source with some catabolism as well. Is 60%/40% always the ratio of fat/protein used by your body in a fasted state? These are the sorta questions I have and haven't found too many definitive answers. I have quite a bit of muscle mass but am willing to sacrifice some in order to drop fat at a faster rate. I would rather do cutting quickly, and then start a very slow bulking cycle if I needed to in the future.

While I would expect to get told that this has been debated to death...which I think it probably has, I still don't see all the answers I'm looking for...so if anyone can give me a pointer on this it would be cool. Maybe I'm just dumb but the insulin topic seems like it's fraught with opposing opinions...and it's not always a dumbass vs smartguy war either...

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-04-2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by ElPietro
Insulin response and carb intake is still one of the few things that seem to stump me though. It seems like there are a ton of threads...CD you started many of em ;)

**Yes, i am a total bastard and everyone hates me for it.

but nothing rarely gets decided on where everyone agrees.

I have done a few searches and have read a lot where it seems like the answer is close...but then it degenerates into a flaming war.

I'm still trying to formulate a very specific macro breakdown for post workout shake/meals from a view of trying to cut fat. There is a lot on bulking and pure muscle preservation, but on the opposite end there isn't as much.

If I'm on a 30/40/30 diet plan I'd think that my body wouldn't be too insulin sensitive...but I could be wrong. Should I take a mix of carb/protein/fat after working out. I'd think fat should be restricted after workout as insulin will allow that fat to go directly to the cells which is pretty much the opposite of what I'd want.

**Yes. there's also the slower digestion part.

Would I want carbs at all?

**unless you're doing a keto, or a diet that specifies no carbs post WO [NHE is a good example] then yes. [just covering my ass by saying that yes, the depletion workout on a CKD involves post WO carbs]

Do I want to replenish glycogen levels right away? Or would I rather stay depleted and continue using fat as a primary fuel source with some catabolism as well.

**if you did this every workout then you'd prolly see your muscle going faster than you'd like or appriciate. I'd say eat after. here's why:

your body is constantly repairing and replacing tissue, whether it be muscle tissue, skin, body organs, blood cells etc and it needs protein for this. The store of protein in the body = muscle, so if the body needs protein and none is being absorbed from the digestive tract, the body will breakdown muscle in ordet to get the protein. so from this retarded, very basic of explanations [apologies for this] eating no food post workout = bad.

now, how about eating protein alone in the hope that the body will still burn fat but will save muscle? well, what the boy will do is use some protein, but it will break alot of it down into glucose, so you kinda defeat the object.

You also wanna get some food down your neck to supress the cortisol levels too.

Is 60%/40% always the ratio of fat/protein used by your body in a fasted state?

**this is what i've always understood, although i imagine the numbers aren;t definitive and everyone will be slightly different. btw, glycogen stores are never at zero, so there's always gonna be some glycogen being used up somewhere.

These are the sorta questions I have and haven't found too many definitive answers. I have quite a bit of muscle mass but am willing to sacrifice some in order to drop fat at a faster rate. I would rather do cutting quickly, and then start a very slow bulking cycle if I needed to in the future.

*smack*

While I would expect to get told that this has been debated to death...which I think it probably has, I still don't see all the answers I'm looking for...so if anyone can give me a pointer on this it would be cool. Maybe I'm just dumb but the insulin topic seems like it's fraught with opposing opinions...and it's not always a dumbass vs smartguy war either...

You're right. It's the case everywhere and not just on this board. We may know a lot about the complexities of the human body, but at the end of the day we = clueless.

ElPietro
01-04-2002, 11:50 AM
Cheers mate! :D

Tryska
01-04-2002, 12:06 PM
just one nitpicky thing....

you NEVER want a diet with no carbs in it at all.

ElPietro
01-04-2002, 12:14 PM
Not sure if yer talkin to me or CD...but if you note the above split I am getting plenty of carbs and have never mentioned a 0 carb diet before...

but I like being nitpicky too...

I'm finding fitday to be a great start to start out with...after the shock of being nowhere close to my goals yesterday I started plugging in what I planned on eating today. Then when I realized I'd be short again today started adding things that I had to make it somewhat resemble my plan. So now I have a better idea of how much I need to eat and of what to get where I want to be. Yeah it's a pain to select all the different shite but I think it's worth it until you get the hang of it...

One thing I don't understand...although in the past I have eaten a bit of fastfood...I'm thinking that I was still only around 3000 cals which should be under the maintainence level per day. I'm surprised my weight has pretty much hovered +/- 5lbs of the same weight for the last 5-6 months. Should caloric intake be calculated at current bodyweight? or Lean body mass? Or somewhere between current and desired weight? And then subtract the 500-1000 additional cals?

Just a curiosity I thought of as I sit here begging my pc clock to say 5pm so I can go home....

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-04-2002, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Tryska
just one nitpicky thing....

you NEVER want a diet with no carbs in it at all.

I agree.

i have disagreed from the start with things like atkins where people stop eating carbohydrates altogether - even non-lifters. I have no medical proof but i just don't think it sounds right.

Lyle macDonald's keto-twist with the weekend carb ups interest me, but they're not something i'd stay on for longer than say 12 weeks. Personal belief.

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-04-2002, 01:36 PM
Pietro, why not workout all the macros you are taking in each day.

at the end of the week, if you are the same weight, you know you have to reduce something - macro wise eg. 10g carbs and 5g fat off each day etc.

This way you don't need to work out your maintenance cals as such, you just need a good idea of how much weight you lose/retain from the given amount of food. This kinda reduces the complexity of it all.

If you do this then you should be able to gear yourself towards weight loss each week - at least for the first 6-9 weeks. by then, depending on how strict you've been, you may notice your metabolism begin to slow down and weight loss will become less apparent.

P.s. 3k cals is under maintenance? how much do you weigh?

ElPietro
01-04-2002, 01:57 PM
245 it's x15 for a basic number ain't it? that would make it 3675 if I went by that number....

I see what you're saying...about the modification of macros...and mebbe I'll try that a bit...it just seems like 2500 cals is still a lot of food...but I guess it is when you are eating clean and not on a taco bell and beer diet. :D

How bad is going 1,000+ cals below maintainance? I would think that if you can still get in enough fat that your body doesn't try to cling to it you would be ok. I mean If I'm still getting like 200g of protein a day I don't see wtf the diff would be...

1k cals is only 2lbs/wk anyway...

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-04-2002, 02:08 PM
damn you're big.

Maki Riddington
01-05-2002, 03:58 PM
Chicken Daddy said,
your body is constantly repairing and replacing tissue, whether it be muscle tissue, skin, body organs, blood cells etc and it needs protein for this. The store of protein in the body = muscle, so if the body needs protein and none is being absorbed from the digestive tract, the body will breakdown muscle in ordet to get the protein. so from this retarded, very basic of explanations [apologies for this] eating no food post workout = bad.


*** You can still gain muscle( not much but never the less) if you skip your post workout meal.
After a workout the body is in a catobolic state, eating afterwards ensures anabolism takes place. Now if you don't eat it will just take longer for your body to even out. It was shown that at around a 24 hour period protein synthesis and protein breakdown evened out which resulted in no muscle being lost after a strength training session.

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-05-2002, 04:02 PM
cool, i'd like to read it.

by the way, i wouldn't say that post workout eating puts you in an anabolic state, just more of a non-catobolic state.

last thing, i didn't say not eating = no muscle gained. I just said it was "bad". Quite a deceptive way to say it, I know, but at least it puts him in the right direction.

ElPietro
01-05-2002, 08:27 PM
Good info Maki...I'm thinking of adding maltodextrin to my postworkout...and also considering a creatine cycle. I haven't used creatine before but I bought some today. I knew i'd eventually go on it but just haven't decided on the timing...

Last I remember maltodextrin was the shiznit for adding to your postworkout shake for a carb source...I will search fo mo research on that...but comments are welcome...I'm starting to realize how fookin much food I have to eat to get to 2500 cals if I cut out taco bell. :D I will miss my goal today but whatever...I'm assuming the end doesn't justify the means...I'm not going to sit hear and say holy fcuck! I'm 1000 cals short today...and down 1000 additional cals in my last meal of the day.

Oh I've been on the prowl for added carb sources and I picked up these fruit/veggie bars by a company called Sun-Rype.

One bar goes like this:
131 cals, .8g protein, .3g fat, 33g carbs, 2.7 fibre

Ingredients: Apple and raspberry puree concentrates, apple and elderberry and lemon juice concentrates, dried cranberries, dried vegetable blend (tomato, carrot, corn, peas, broccoli, green beans, spinach, squash, zucchini), rice crisps(rice flour, rice and malt extracts), dried cranberry powder, citris pectin, natural flavour.

They taste awesome and I will think of using one or two a day primarily as a fruit source. My biggest prob right now is consuming enough carbs from healthy sources. I've discovered that spreading natty pb on whole wheat bread is a good way to get my fat and carb intake up...or margerine as well...but need to find more ways.

As usual, comments and suggestions are welcome.

Maki Riddington
01-05-2002, 08:57 PM
El, SunRype is dashiznit.

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-06-2002, 06:01 AM
Well thanks for editing your post and making me looking like a complete moron there Maki.

Do you have the study?

btw, who waits 24 hours before eating after training?

and surely during this time waiting for pro synthesis and breakdown to level you're losing muscle?

Maki Riddington
01-07-2002, 06:25 PM
1. Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology; 20(4), 480-486, 1995.

"Back in 1995, researchers showed that immediately after strength training, protein balance is negative (indicating muscle loss) due to the big increase in protein breakdown and the marginal increase in protein synthesis.

Furthermore, this situation seemed to persist for a few hours after the workout. But a few hours later, an interesting switch occurred. Protein synthesis started to climb and breakdown started to fall (although it was still elevated).

This ultimately (about 24 hours later) can lead to a muscle protein balance where synthesis is equal to breakdown (no gain or loss in mass), or a positive protein balance where synthesis is greater than protein breakdown (voila, muscle gains)."

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-08-2002, 10:03 AM
have you missed out chunks of that, cause it says nothing about not eating post train.


also, how can protein synthesis be increased from nothing? what are they gonna produce the proteins from?

ElPietro
01-08-2002, 11:46 AM
Ok while this discussion is still going on, do you think there is any advantage or disadvantage using dextrose or maltodextrin in a postworkout shake? Or should I even be using this whilst cutting? Basically going to start with creatine after I get back from this rare binge drink weekend so need to create a new post workout formula.

Maki Riddington
01-08-2002, 05:38 PM
This excerpt was basically showing that even though one should eat postworkout, it is not a "bad" thing if you skip the post workout meal.

I guess the answer to your next question would require one of us to do some research. I can't be bothered to search for the answer. Who knows it might even be a mystery. Not everything is known about why the body functions as it does.

I gave you the reference, do with it as you please.

Maki Riddington
01-08-2002, 05:45 PM
There was a interesting study I read authored by Jose Antonio ( he's one of the leading reserachers in the BB community)

The article showed which amino's are needed post workout.
Whey protein basically covers that, but if you want to get really specific then taking certain dosages of aminos acids postworkout may be even better as the study stated.

I can't really type it out but if you have any questions about it then I'll do my best to answer them.

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-09-2002, 10:31 AM
well i found this at pubmed:


Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology, 20(4): 480-486, 1995)

The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.

MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE.

Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario.

It has been shown that muscle protein synthetic rate (MPS) is elevated in humans by 50% at 4 hrs following a bout of heavy resistance training, and by 109% at 24 hrs following training. This study further examined the time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis by examining its rate at 36 hrs following a training session. Six healthy young men performed 12 sets of 6- to 12-RM elbow flexion exercises with one arm while the opposite arm served as a control. MPS was calculated from the in vivo rate of incorporation of L-[1,2-13C2] leucine into biceps brachii of both arms using the primed constant infusion technique over 11 hrs. At an average time of 36 hrs postexercise, MPS in the exercised arm had returned to within 14% of the control arm value, the difference being nonsignificant. It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.


it still says nothing about actually eating post train.

But let's analyse it a bit. All this study shows is that protein synthesis will 'level off' with protein breakdown after a certain period of time. if the body doesn't have an available supply of aminos in the blood, then to do so it's gonna have to take some from the muscles - remember, every cell in the body is in a constant state of 'repair' or growth and it's a survival technique that cell repair of the liver or brain, for example, is more important than sustaining muscle tissue.

So the report doesn't actually mention anything about net loss of muscle tissue. Infact, protein degrading wasn't even measured in the study. Therefore, your initial statement "...resulted in no muscle being lost after a strength training session" may not actually be true after all - in fact, it may be completely wrong.

Anyhoo, I couldn't find buggar all on medline, but then again i am still getting used to using it.


To back up my arguement, I found this on pubmed:

Can J Appl Physiol 2000 Dec;25(6):524-35 Related Articles, Books

Nutritional supplementation and resistance exercise: what is the evidence for enhanced skeletal muscle hypertrophy?

Gibala MJ.

Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1.

Many athletes and recreational weightlifters believe that dietary manipulations' either following a single bout of resistance exercise or during habitual training may augment the normal gains in muscle fibre hypertrophy. Very few studies, however, have directly examined the effect of nutritional supplementation on muscle protein metabolism after resistance exercise. Ingestion of an amino acid and/or carbohydrate solution during the initial hours following a single bout of resistance exercise promotes an acute increase in protein net balance compared to the fasted state. The precise mechanism involved has not been elucidated but seems related to an increased availability of intracellular amino acids and/or an increase in plasma insulin concentration. As a practical recommendation, therefore, postexercise feeding appears to be very important. Recent evidence suggests that creatine supplementation in conjunction with resistance training may elicit larger increases in muscle fiber cross-sectional area compared to training alone. This intervention may be most beneficial in persons with "compromised" skeletal muscle.


And this:

Annu Rev Nutr 2000;20:457-83

Protein and amino acid metabolism during and after exercise and the effects of nutrition.

Rennie MJ, Tipton KD.

Department of Anatomy & Physiology, University of Dundee, Dundee DD1 4HN, Scotland. m.j.rennie@dundee.ac.uk

Sustained dynamic exercise stimulates amino acid oxidation, chiefly of the branched-chain amino acids, and ammonia production in proportion to exercise intensity; if the exercise is intense enough, there is a net loss of muscle protein (as a result of decreased protein synthesis, increased breakdown, or both); some of the amino acids are oxidized as fuel, whereas the rest provide substrates for gluconeogenesis and possibly for acid-based regulation. Protein balance is restored after exercise, but no hypertrophy occurs with habitual dynamic exercise. Resistance exercise causes little change in amino acid oxidation but probably depresses protein synthesis and elevates breakdown acutely. After exercise, protein synthesis rebounds for </=48 h, but breakdown remains elevated, and net positive balance is achieved only if amino acid availability is increased. There is no evidence that habitual exercise increases protein requirements; indeed protein metabolism may become more efficient as a result of training.


Another:


J Physiol. 2001 Aug 15;535(Pt 1):2.

Timing of postexercise protein intake is important for muscle hypertrophy with resistance training in elderly humans.

Esmarck B, Andersen JL, Olsen S, Richter EA, Mizuno M, Kjaer M.

Sports Medicine Research Unit, Bispebjerg Hospital, Denmark. bep01@bbh.hosp.dk

1. Age-associated loss of skeletal muscle mass and strength can partly be counteracted by resistance training, causing a net synthesis of muscular proteins. Protein synthesis is influenced synergistically by postexercise amino acid supplementation, but the importance of the timing of protein intake remains unresolved. 2. The study investigated the importance of immediate (P0) or delayed (P2) intake of an oral protein supplement upon muscle hypertrophy and strength over a period of resistance training in elderly males. 3. Thirteen men (age, 74 +/- 1 years; body mass index (BMI), 25 +/- 1 kg m(-2) (means +/- S.E.M.)) completed a 12 week resistance training programme (3 times per week) receiving oral protein in liquid form (10 g protein, 7 g carbohydrate, 3 g fat) immediately after (P0) or 2 h after (P2) each training session. Muscle hypertrophy was evaluated by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and from muscle biopsies and muscle strength was determined using dynamic and isokinetic strength measurements. Body composition was determined from dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA) and food records were obtained over 4 days. The plasma insulin response to protein supplementation was also determined. 4. In response to training, the cross-sectional area of m. quadriceps femoris (54.6 +/- 0.5 to 58.3 +/- 0.5 cm(2)) and mean fibre area (4047 +/- 320 to 5019 +/- 615 microm(2)) increased in the P0 group, whereas no significant increase was observed in P2. For P0 both dynamic and isokinetic strength increased, by 46 and 15 %, respectively (P < 0.05), whereas P2 only improved in dynamic strength, by 36 % (P < 0.05). No differences in glucose or insulin response were observed between protein intake at 0 and 2 h postexercise. 5. We conclude that early intake of an oral protein supplement after resistance training is important for the development of hypertrophy in skeletal muscle of elderly men in response to resistance training

[albeit this is relating to elderly like Pauly etc..]


there was actually quite a few more i could have used that i found in one search! maybe if i had of tried several different searches i may have found tonnes!

Anyhoo...

Maki Riddington
01-09-2002, 05:03 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
[B]well i found this at pubmed:


Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology, 20(4): 480-486, 1995)

The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.

MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE.

Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario.

It has been shown that muscle protein synthetic rate (MPS) is elevated in humans by 50% at 4 hrs following a bout of heavy resistance training, and by 109% at 24 hrs following training. This study further examined the time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis by examining its rate at 36 hrs following a training session. Six healthy young men performed 12 sets of 6- to 12-RM elbow flexion exercises with one arm while the opposite arm served as a control. MPS was calculated from the in vivo rate of incorporation of L-[1,2-13C2] leucine into biceps brachii of both arms using the primed constant infusion technique over 11 hrs. At an average time of 36 hrs postexercise, MPS in the exercised arm had returned to within 14% of the control arm value, the difference being nonsignificant. It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.


it still says nothing about actually eating post train.


*** This is an abstract so it is summerizing the important parts of the study. Therfore it is most likely that there was no post workout meal being taken in.


But let's analyse it a bit. All this study shows is that protein synthesis will 'level off' with protein breakdown after a certain period of time. if the body doesn't have an available supply of aminos in the blood, then to do so it's gonna have to take some from the muscles - remember, every cell in the body is in a constant state of 'repair' or growth and it's a survival technique that cell repair of the liver or brain, for example, is more important than sustaining muscle tissue.

*** If this were true we would see more of a decline in muscle mass if one were to train. If anything there is a balance. There may be a net loss but in the end it wil be balanced out. What you are forgetting is that it not just a black and white matter. Protein synthesis and degradation are only part of the equation. What about the hormonal systems?


So the report doesn't actually mention anything about net loss of muscle tissue. Infact, protein degrading wasn't even measured in the study. Therefore, your initial statement "...resulted in no muscle being lost after a strength training session" may not actually be true after all - in fact, it may be completely wrong.

*** What happens is that protein degradation occurs after a workout which leads to a loss but after a period of time there is a shift and protein synthesis starts to go way up which makes up for any of the lost muscle.


Anyhoo, I couldn't find buggar all on medline, but then again i am still getting used to using it.


To back up my arguement, I found this on pubmed:

Can J Appl Physiol 2000 Dec;25(6):524-35 Related Articles, Books

Nutritional supplementation and resistance exercise: what is the evidence for enhanced skeletal muscle hypertrophy?

Gibala MJ.

Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1.

Many athletes and recreational weightlifters believe that dietary manipulations' either following a single bout of resistance exercise or during habitual training may augment the normal gains in muscle fibre hypertrophy. Very few studies, however, have directly examined the effect of nutritional supplementation on muscle protein metabolism after resistance exercise. Ingestion of an amino acid and/or carbohydrate solution during the initial hours following a single bout of resistance exercise promotes an acute increase in protein net balance compared to the fasted state. The precise mechanism involved has not been elucidated but seems related to an increased availability of intracellular amino acids and/or an increase in plasma insulin concentration. As a practical recommendation, therefore, postexercise feeding appears to be very important. Recent evidence suggests that creatine supplementation in conjunction with resistance training may elicit larger increases in muscle fiber cross-sectional area compared to training alone. This intervention may be most beneficial in persons with "compromised" skeletal muscle.


And this:

Annu Rev Nutr 2000;20:457-83

Protein and amino acid metabolism during and after exercise and the effects of nutrition.

Rennie MJ, Tipton KD.

Department of Anatomy & Physiology, University of Dundee, Dundee DD1 4HN, Scotland. m.j.rennie@dundee.ac.uk

Sustained dynamic exercise stimulates amino acid oxidation, chiefly of the branched-chain amino acids, and ammonia production in proportion to exercise intensity; if the exercise is intense enough, there is a net loss of muscle protein (as a result of decreased protein synthesis, increased breakdown, or both); some of the amino acids are oxidized as fuel, whereas the rest provide substrates for gluconeogenesis and possibly for acid-based regulation. Protein balance is restored after exercise, but no hypertrophy occurs with habitual dynamic exercise. Resistance exercise causes little change in amino acid oxidation but probably depresses protein synthesis and elevates breakdown acutely. After exercise, protein synthesis rebounds for </=48 h, but breakdown remains elevated, and net positive balance is achieved only if amino acid availability is increased. There is no evidence that habitual exercise increases protein requirements; indeed protein metabolism may become more efficient as a result of training.


Another:


J Physiol. 2001 Aug 15;535(Pt 1):2.

Timing of postexercise protein intake is important for muscle hypertrophy with resistance training in elderly humans.

Esmarck B, Andersen JL, Olsen S, Richter EA, Mizuno M, Kjaer M.

Sports Medicine Research Unit, Bispebjerg Hospital, Denmark. bep01@bbh.hosp.dk

1. Age-associated loss of skeletal muscle mass and strength can partly be counteracted by resistance training, causing a net synthesis of muscular proteins. Protein synthesis is influenced synergistically by postexercise amino acid supplementation, but the importance of the timing of protein intake remains unresolved. 2. The study investigated the importance of immediate (P0) or delayed (P2) intake of an oral protein supplement upon muscle hypertrophy and strength over a period of resistance training in elderly males. 3. Thirteen men (age, 74 +/- 1 years; body mass index (BMI), 25 +/- 1 kg m(-2) (means +/- S.E.M.)) completed a 12 week resistance training programme (3 times per week) receiving oral protein in liquid form (10 g protein, 7 g carbohydrate, 3 g fat) immediately after (P0) or 2 h after (P2) each training session. Muscle hypertrophy was evaluated by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and from muscle biopsies and muscle strength was determined using dynamic and isokinetic strength measurements. Body composition was determined from dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA) and food records were obtained over 4 days. The plasma insulin response to protein supplementation was also determined. 4. In response to training, the cross-sectional area of m. quadriceps femoris (54.6 +/- 0.5 to 58.3 +/- 0.5 cm(2)) and mean fibre area (4047 +/- 320 to 5019 +/- 615 microm(2)) increased in the P0 group, whereas no significant increase was observed in P2. For P0 both dynamic and isokinetic strength increased, by 46 and 15 %, respectively (P < 0.05), whereas P2 only improved in dynamic strength, by 36 % (P < 0.05). No differences in glucose or insulin response were observed between protein intake at 0 and 2 h postexercise. 5. We conclude that early intake of an oral protein supplement after resistance training is important for the development of hypertrophy in skeletal muscle of elderly men in response to resistance training

*** Whoa buddy, I think your arguing a point I never said was inncorrect. Of course it is something you would want to do postworkout. What I said was it is not nessicarily "BAD".
Read my intial post over.
You seem a little over zealous about arguing this.

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-10-2002, 09:10 AM
good points Maki, but i'm still unclear of what the proteins will be synthesised out of.

Oh, and by the way, i'm not over zealous about arguing this, i was just looking for an excuse to avoid revision. :)

Maki Riddington
01-10-2002, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
good points Maki, but i'm still unclear of what the proteins will be synthesised out of.



*** Good question. I will have to figure that out...................

ElPietro
03-07-2002, 08:41 AM
just bumping this thread as i thought it was a good discussion for the most part and may help others...