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MixmasterNash
12-14-2005, 01:20 PM
Poor form, not very deep.

STRONG AS F'ING HELL.

http://intocombat.com/video_detail.php?VideoID=34

Love the medicine ball guy in the background.

RickTheDestroyer
12-14-2005, 01:28 PM
Watching that makes my lower back hurt.
It's still pretty damn awesome though.
That medicine ball guy totally sucks.

Mik
12-14-2005, 01:44 PM
LMAO @ medicine ball man. He NEVER even hit parallel!
I missed the guy squatting focusing on him. :)

muscleup
12-14-2005, 01:51 PM
I'm sure he thinks that belt is going to save him from injury do to his crap ass form.

HelpMeLift
12-14-2005, 01:52 PM
wait were the squats parallel?

HahnB
12-14-2005, 02:25 PM
That guy's an animal.

Sensei
12-14-2005, 02:39 PM
I'm sure he thinks that belt is going to save him from injury do to his crap ass form.
How's your form doing those kind of reps w. those weights?

Mad Max
12-14-2005, 02:40 PM
What would you8 gusy say about his form on the first set? Obviously he had poor form on the last set. He didn't go quite low enough on the first set. But what about his back, on the first set was he bending it too much? That's about how much I bend mine.

Mik
12-14-2005, 02:41 PM
I gotta admit.......perfect form or not that is pretty incredible.

g0ddang
12-14-2005, 02:42 PM
Watching that makes my lower back hurt.
It's still pretty damn awesome though.
That medicine ball guy totally sucks.

ditto.

getfit
12-14-2005, 02:47 PM
I gotta admit.......perfect form or not that is pretty incredible.
i agree, i mean we all have had poor form on our squats before no?

i sure have, if i see myself struggling to no end i'll give it up there and then, better off stopping then causing an injury

muscleup
12-14-2005, 03:02 PM
How's your form doing those kind of reps w. those weights?
Oh, so you are promoting bad form now?

or are you in favor of going too heavy with extreamly high reps?

Who really gives a crap if he can do it the wrong way?

If he is trying to be a PLer, then I doubt if he lifts the wrong way while training, he is all of a sudden going to go || on meet day?

And if he is a BBer, well I feel sorry for him.

WillKuenzel
12-14-2005, 03:05 PM
Like others have said, poor form or not, its still impressive. If he can do that many reps with it, then I don't think his lower back is having any issues and he can get away with it. Unless your lower back is conditioned enough and strong enough, it might be best not to try and duplicate it.

I have my clients do the same thing with the medicine ball. Its a simple warm up. LOL, its not actually supposed to be any kind of workout. Its looks funny but its effective. Watch somebody do them with kettle-bells with one hand.

Sensei
12-14-2005, 03:07 PM
Oh, so you are promoting bad form now?
or are you in favor of going too heavy with extreamly high reps?
Who really gives a crap if he can do it the wrong way?
If he is trying to be a PLer, then I doubt if he lifts the wrong way while training, he is all of a sudden going to go || on meet day?
And if he is a BBer, well I feel sorry for him.
Soooo, I guess the answer to my question is that you have no answer because you squat about half of what he does for less reps.

How do you know he never goes to parallel or deeper in his training?

Edit: His form is pretty good on the first set considering it's a fast set of 20 with 315 - many of the reps are right at or hovering just above parallel. How exactly am I "promoting" bad form?

Maki Riddington
12-14-2005, 03:15 PM
That's Radhi Ferguson.

4-Time National Champion
2004 Pan Am Bronze Medalist (Judo)
2001 World Championship Silver Medalist (BJJ - purple)
2001 Pan Am Silver Medalist (BJJ - purple)
BJJ Brown Belt

Here's a clip of him man handling a guy during a comp. His form may not be the best but he is very very strong.

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7599

I was pretty damn amazed at his ability to display his strength in the first part of the clip. You may have to sign up but it's worth it if you are a MA.

Stumprrp
12-14-2005, 03:17 PM
amazing

MixmasterNash
12-14-2005, 03:17 PM
Oh, so you are promoting bad form now?

or are you in favor of going too heavy with extreamly high reps?

Who really gives a crap if he can do it the wrong way?

If he is trying to be a PLer, then I doubt if he lifts the wrong way while training, he is all of a sudden going to go || on meet day?

And if he is a BBer, well I feel sorry for him.

He is neither. He is a Judoka on the U.S. olympic team.

He is building power so he can pick people up and throw them on their head. He will be doing this from a partial squat, so he trains this way. If he is below parallel, then something has gone wrong in a match.

Go watch the Tiki Barber training videos on ESPN.

Training for sport is different than training from hypertrophy or powerlifting specific work.

David
12-14-2005, 03:36 PM
I was under the impression that was you in the video mixmaster.

MixmasterNash
12-14-2005, 03:40 PM
I was under the impression that was you in the video mixmaster.

LOL, no way, that's why I put it the Training forum. Someone else moved it to Members pics.

BigRic
12-14-2005, 03:52 PM
Thats really ****ing strong considering i almost killed myself doing 280x6 and 190x20 twice. i couldn't imagine 315x20

muscleup
12-14-2005, 03:58 PM
He is building power so he can pick people up and throw them on their head. He will be doing this from a partial squat, so he trains this way. If he is below parallel, then something has gone wrong in a match.

Go watch the Tiki Barber training videos on ESPN.

Training for sport is different than training from hypertrophy or powerlifting specific work.
This should have been in your first post. :confused:

muscleup
12-14-2005, 04:07 PM
Soooo, I guess the answer to my question is that you have no answer because you squat about half of what he does for less reps.
lol I don't even squat 70% of what he was doing.

How do you know he never goes to parallel or deeper in his training?


Edit: His form is pretty good on the first set considering it's a fast set of 20 with 315 - many of the reps are right at or hovering just above parallel. How exactly am I "promoting" bad form?
If he is training to toss other people around, then I guess it really doesn't matter.

WBBIRL
12-14-2005, 04:14 PM
Well either way in the second set he leaned way to far forward and could have hurt his neck. First set was decent considering speed and weight, but just ever so slightly about parallel. The last set was a good 4-6" to high to be considered a rep, if he intended them to be.

He moved a lot of weight, high number of reps, and seems like a pretty good martial artist... so I take nothing from the guy.

Maki Riddington
12-14-2005, 04:45 PM
You do realize that this guy has his own training company and is partners with a fellow named Juan Carlos Santana who is one of the top trainers in North America.

Try telling him his forms sucks and he could hurt himself. Some of you sound like those annoying gym members who walk up and say, "you know you could hurt yourself doing that."

dw06wu
12-14-2005, 04:53 PM
With a belt and that depth, I'm pretty sure I could hit 15/10/1-2 respectively. Why are some of you getting bent out of shape over the vid?? Thats how he trains, it obviously works for him. Form is more of a guideline than a rule.

edit, definitely not in a row though.

Roark
12-14-2005, 05:24 PM
massive effort

MM
12-14-2005, 05:28 PM
Hahaha.

Basically people are crapping on his form because if they squatted with that much back movement, they'd snap their spinal column. He goes fairly deep, he squats very quickly, and he happens to have a lot of back flexation. Big deal.

I thought it was pretty sick. Like DD said, I was literally feeling some pain in my back as I watched it.

Manveet
12-14-2005, 05:35 PM
His form for the 315X20 wasn't terrible imo. A little too much forward lean, and *maybe* not enough depth.

I've seen A LOT worse.

JSully
12-14-2005, 05:51 PM
How's your form doing those kind of reps w. those weights?

perfect.



No, I'm not joking. I have several witnesses from WBB. :D

JSully
12-14-2005, 06:04 PM
You do realize that this guy has his own training company and is partners with a fellow named Juan Carlos Santana who is one of the top trainers in North America.

Try telling him his forms sucks and he could hurt himself. Some of you sound like those annoying gym members who walk up and say, "you know you could hurt yourself doing that."

I'm not taking anything away from him. He moves some good weight. He nearly hit parallel on most of the 315x20, but once he got to 10 he was doing a good morning for the majority. He could have gone 2-3" deeper on the 405 until he hit about the 8th rep, which is where it turned to good mornings again. And the 500, wow. It looked like he would snap his back.

I believe I have a right to say something about his form considering I have witnesses from this site that have watched me squat 585 with perfect form and just below parallel. I wouldn't walk up to him and say that though. I would just shake my head and imagine how his back is in 10 years. I certainly hope he doesn't promote that form to his trainees.

In my opinion, something like squats, you should ALWAYS have perfect form on. I've had several friends throw out their back and end their squatting "career" because of ****ty form. There are some exercises you can get away with a cheat, and some you cant. Squatting is one of them. It'll catch you in the long run.

Now, aside from that, he's pretty damn strong. :thumbup:

spencerjrus
12-14-2005, 08:05 PM
I'm not taking anything away from him. He moves some good weight. He nearly hit parallel on most of the 315x20, but once he got to 10 he was doing a good morning for the majority. He could have gone 2-3" deeper on the 405 until he hit about the 8th rep, which is where it turned to good mornings again. And the 500, wow. It looked like he would snap his back.

I believe I have a right to say something about his form considering I have witnesses from this site that have watched me squat 585 with perfect form and just below parallel. I wouldn't walk up to him and say that though. I would just shake my head and imagine how his back is in 10 years. I certainly hope he doesn't promote that form to his trainees.

In my opinion, something like squats, you should ALWAYS have perfect form on. I've had several friends throw out their back and end their squatting "career" because of ****ty form. There are some exercises you can get away with a cheat, and some you cant. Squatting is one of them. It'll catch you in the long run.

Now, aside from that, he's pretty damn strong. :thumbup:


Good points. Regardless, that man is a beast.

BCC
12-14-2005, 08:45 PM
Well I'm a squat freak and his form sucks. 315 I would say he half squated. I don't think he could squat 10 deep reps with 405.

Canadian Crippler
12-14-2005, 08:48 PM
It's strong as hell, but there are dudes on this forum far more impressive.

MixmasterNash
12-14-2005, 09:12 PM
It's strong as hell, but there are dudes on this forum far more impressive.

At squatting. But not sport. Unless there are Olympic athletes I don't know about.

And I think he should be using better form the on the 500lb squats. But anything done for 15-20 reps is fairly "light" and he's doing it for power output versus strength, so as long as safety is not compromised, I think it's okay that form is not perfect.

Sensei
12-14-2005, 10:15 PM
Give it up Mix. Thanks for posting it.

Little Jake,
I really don't know what your numbers have to do w. any of this... I've squatted 500+ w. "perfect form" @198, but so what?

Hockey66
12-14-2005, 11:26 PM
Little Jake,
I really don't know what your numbers have to do w. any of this... I've squatted 500+ w. "perfect form" @198, but so what?


How's your form doing those kind of reps w. those weights?


Well, when someone else tried to make a point in here you totally ignored it and pointed out that he could not squat that weight. LittleJake most likely assumed that since he can squat much more than that, with much better form, he could add to the thread without getting ragged on.

Sensei
12-14-2005, 11:42 PM
Well, when someone else tried to make a point in here you totally ignored it and pointed out that he could not squat that weight. LittleJake most likely assumed that since he can squat much more than that, with much better form, he could add to the thread without getting ragged on.
If the video clip was entitled "Proper Squatting Form" then I could understand everyone jumping all over it. As it stands, and as others have also pointed out, it sounds almost as bad as the pencilnecks that shake their heads when they see people actually squatting in squat racks and go on and on about how they will ruin their knees...

Except for his set for 500, I thought his form was ok. Definately not perfect, but definately not deserving of all the bitching that it has brought out in this thread.

Most people's form will suffer at least a little when they are doing high-rep squats to failure or near failure.

Oh, and I wasn't asking you Hockey66, but thanks for the dig...

Hockey66
12-15-2005, 12:41 AM
If the video clip was entitled "Proper Squatting Form" then I could understand everyone jumping all over it. As it stands, and as others have also pointed out, it sounds almost as bad as the pencilnecks that shake their heads when they see people actually squatting in squat racks and go on and on about how they will ruin their knees...

Except for his set for 500, I thought his form was ok. Definately not perfect, but definately not deserving of all the bitching that it has brought out in this thread.

Most people's form will suffer at least a little when they are doing high-rep squats to failure or near failure.

Oh, and I wasn't asking you Hockey66, but thanks for the dig...

My point wasn't that the form is poor, I couldn't care less about that. I was just trying to make the point that the reason LittleJake posted his squat stats is that when muscleup said that he could hurt himself with that form, you totally ignored his point and asked "How's your form doing those kind of reps w. those weights?"

I didn't mean to offend you, I was just giving logical arguement as to why LittleJake would have posted his squat stats.

JSully
12-15-2005, 01:54 AM
Give it up Mix. Thanks for posting it.

Little Jake,
I really don't know what your numbers have to do w. any of this... I've squatted 500+ w. "perfect form" @198, but so what?
You decided to belittle those that can't squat that much and are still adding their $.02 to the thread.

That's what my numbers have to do with it.

Sensei
12-15-2005, 04:41 AM
You decided to belittle those that can't squat that much and are still adding their $.02 to the thread.
Only because they were "belittling" the video... I've visited my share of message boards over the years and hearing the same negative comments, berating lifters for improper depth/technique, using the "mono-cheat", equipment, steroids, etc. just gets old after a while.

chris mason
12-15-2005, 05:34 AM
Hey Sensei, do you have a video of your perfect 500 squat at 198? I assume that was equipped?

Anyway, the guy is strong and that is an impressive feat. His reps are short, but that doesn't mean he is not a strong guy.

Sensei
12-15-2005, 06:31 AM
Hey Sensei, do you have a video of your perfect 500 squat at 198? I assume that was equipped?It's 52? and it's on a DVD. Why?
Yes, I'm the biggest "cheater" there is.

JSully
12-15-2005, 07:36 AM
Some people, no matter how hard they try, will never hit numbers like that. But that doesn't mean that they don't know what they're doing. Not everyone has the bone structure for a 500lb squat, or knee problems or whatever. This is a forum board, you're going to get everyones opinion anyways. It's not fair that you try to take it away from them because they can't reach that kind of weight.

Whether they were trying to take credit away from him or not is beside the point. The fact is, he barely hit parallel on a total of less than 10 of those squats. Out of 28 total, and less than 10 were of good depth. Now lets look at his good mornings performed. I'm not going to watch the video again, but he did more good mornings than he did parallel squats.

If he continues to squat heavy like that, and even go higher, he will throw his back out. That's not an if. The video was posted for people to make comments about. They made comments about it, and you decided to degrade those that can't do the weight. THATS why I chimed in. Because I had the same argument as all those others, and I can do the weight, with perfect form.

spencerjrus
12-15-2005, 08:29 AM
Would the form on the 500x3 even be allowed in a meet?

MixmasterNash
12-15-2005, 08:36 AM
Here's a philosophical/phsyiological question: Can you reach maximum power output with perfect form?

I tend to agree with the crossfit folks who say that it is not possible. Maintaining perfect form requires limiting power. Then again, they would probably tell us to use full range squats with less weight in any case.

dw06wu
12-15-2005, 08:46 AM
Would the form on the 500x3 even be allowed in a meet?
All that really matters is you squat when they say squat, hit depth, and rack when they say rack. That said, no, he did not go nearly low enough.

dw06wu
12-15-2005, 08:51 AM
Here's a philosophical/phsyiological question: Can you reach maximum power output with perfect form?

I tend to agree with the crossfit folks who say that it is not possible. Maintaining perfect form requires limiting power. Then again, they would probably tell us to use full range squats with less weight in any case.
Here's what I don't get. A full ROM will totally develop the upper portion of the lift too, so why not just do it? I mean, building up to an ass to grass 315 would obviously allow someone to half rep a ****load more weight. The guy's a great athlete, he can train how he wants, and hes getting great results, but I just don't understand that decision. Seems like he is limiting his potential.

Also, you said that he trains that way because thats how he would be in a match. If he would get lower than that, then something is wrong. Well, isn't that the point of training your strength too? Not only to overpower the guy asap, but to help you combat a disadvantaged position should the situation occur.

edit - maybe thats one of any reasons that hes a bronze and silver meadlist instead of the gold :idea:

Spiderman
12-15-2005, 09:09 AM
You do realize that this guy has his own training company and is partners with a fellow named Juan Carlos Santana who is one of the top trainers in North America.

Try telling him his forms sucks and he could hurt himself. Some of you sound like those annoying gym members who walk up and say, "you know you could hurt yourself doing that."


HAHAHA...Maki this cracks me up!! Nice way to shut people up. He has an impressive squat, regardless of if his ass isn't coming down 2 more inches for a deeper ROM. Strong as hell period.

From close examination, and most of you who've posted here MAY Not be able to catch it, Maki and Chris Mason WILL, it seems that on the concentric motion of the rep you can see that his quads may be slightly weaker than his hamstrings. Watch the rep closely, the reason he leans forward slightly is because his hams and glutes/hips take over. You can actually see them recruited instead of the quads. However, this is probably a reoccuring thing with most people squatting heavy as the Gluteus Maximus IS the most powerfull muscle in the body.

BCC
12-15-2005, 09:44 AM
Would the form on the 500x3 even be allowed in a meet?

I think a whole lot would be solved if this man's exercise were properly identified as not a squat, but a Weighted Curtsy TM.

If I can find a pretty dress and a smith machine I'll demonstrate.

chris mason
12-15-2005, 10:05 AM
It's 52? and it's on a DVD. Why?
Yes, I'm the biggest "cheater" there is.


I do not understand this post.

BigRic
12-15-2005, 10:13 AM
From close examination, and most of you who've posted here MAY Not be able to catch it, Maki and Chris Mason WILL, it seems that on the concentric motion of the rep you can see that his quads may be slightly weaker than his hamstrings. Watch the rep closely, the reason he leans forward slightly is because his hams and glutes/hips take over. You can actually see them recruited instead of the quads. However, this is probably a reoccuring thing with most people squatting heavy as the Gluteus Maximus IS the most powerfull muscle in the body.

This makes alot of sense to me, I started to notice when we were doing squats last week I was also leaning forward alot, another observation I made a week or two ago was that my hams and ass were getting big. Either way it's a heavy ass squat and he probably has a strong as posterior chain, I'm pretty sure thats what it looks like when i squat.

Adam
12-15-2005, 10:21 AM
I just watched the vid.
Was it an ugly squat type movement? Yes
Did he go low enough for a meet? Not nearly
Was it impressive? Depends on who your asking, to most yes. To me not overly crazy but thats cause I see the strongest guys in Canada lift at times
Will he bust his back? Probly not. I'd hate for you guys to see my back on squats(on high reps, like he did) or deads.
Why all the criticism on him? No clue.

Sensei
12-15-2005, 10:34 AM
I do not understand this post.
"It's 52? and it's on a DVD. Why?" = I squatted five hundred twenty-something. It's recorded on a DVD. Why did you ask if I had video?

"Yes, I'm the biggest 'cheater' there is." = it was equipped.

chris mason
12-15-2005, 11:58 AM
I asked about the video because I would like to see it.

Mik
12-15-2005, 12:41 PM
I asked about the video because I would like to see it.

I'd love to see it too. Not because I'm doubtful but to light a fire under my a$$ to bust my a$$.

Sensei
12-15-2005, 02:42 PM
I'd love to see it too. Not because I'm doubtful but to light a fire under my a$$ to bust my a$$.
I appreciate that. If I can upload the DVD, I'll PM it to you and Chris if he's interested - after seeing people tear the dude in the clip a new hole, I'm not really geeked about posting it here...

Meat_Head
12-15-2005, 03:25 PM
Not everyone has the bone structure for a 500lb squat, or knee problems or whatever.


For males an extremely high percentage of the population could squat 500lbs with proper training. Look at all of the people who have done that who started with the 'bone structure' of a malnourished ballet dancer.

His form really isn't that bad at all, at least on the last set. It looks like he might have either a strength imbalance in his legs or tight hamstrings/glutes, but either way he is moving a ton of weight through a big range of motion many times. If he dropped 40-50lbs off the bar and did perfect form below parallel squats instead, the only thing you'd be testing is the strength of his glutes in their almost completely stretched position, which happens almost never in any kind of athletics or daily life.

chris mason
12-15-2005, 04:18 PM
If we are talking about a RAW 500 lbs squat to parallel or below I simply cannot agree MeatHead.

Only a small percentage of the population can achieve such a milestone.

Heck, if you look back to the pre-steroid era a 500 lbs squat was HUGE.

JSully
12-15-2005, 05:57 PM
Now I must intrude once again. I'm not taking shots by any means, but you called me out on posting my numbers...

Sensei: Why did you post yours if it was equipped? 520 something is impressive for a 198 body weight, equipped or not. Most everyone on this board knows I train raw, which is the 2nd reason why I posted. At a 225lb bodyweight I hit 545x1 raw below parallel. Equipped would have been much more. I didn't post my numbers to brag. I was relating because of the situation, and you posting an equipped squat doesn't really relate to this situation. That's a whole different league.

As far as his glutes and hams being stronger than his quads, that may be so, I didn't watch his vid that close. Nonetheless, he leaned too far forward, which means the weight was too heavy for him, or he just forgot to sit back on his heels. I won't lie, I've squatted heavy like this before, and I had to drop a couple hundred pounds to start squatting with perfect form when my knees started getting all jacked up.

Meathead: you say it happens almost never in any kind of athletics, well for that one time out of a million it does? what do you do then? An athlete should be ready for anything. A powerful full squat can help out alot when you're on the bottom end of BJJ fighting your opponent off. That's all glutes and hams. There are several scenarios I can think of that it may help out on.

Oh, Sensei, I would like to see the vid actually. Because, as I said, 520something at a 198 is impressive. I wouldn't worry about people ripping you apart, no matter what it's going to happen, I'd just like to see it. I posted a bench video of me hitting 405x3 a while back and I got ripped by a few people because I didn't pause at the bottom, and because I don't lockout. Oh well, that won't stop me from posting anymore. I'm still waiting to get a new cam so I can make my new video of my 600 squat. Feel free to rip my form to **** when I post it. :) [no, I'm not being a smartass, just cracking a joke]

MM
12-15-2005, 07:18 PM
Feel free to rip my form to **** when I post it. :) [no, I'm not being a smartass, just cracking a joke]

Oh, don't you worry, Jake. I've started typing my critique of your form even before I've seen the video. I'm up to 700 words.

Manveet
12-15-2005, 08:19 PM
Since we are talking about bad form:
http://www.irongame.com/videos/20050525/WPOFinals.2004,October10th,SuperHeavyweightSquats.wmv

and those guys call themselves "powerlifters"

Organichu
12-15-2005, 10:21 PM
I do not understand this post.

I think he was saying his squat was for 520 lbs, his squat is captured on a DVD, and he "cheats" in that he uses squatting suits.



EDIT ADDENDUM: Lol, I didn't realize there was another page where the posts continued. :P

csd123
12-16-2005, 11:11 AM
This thread is insane, the more I read, the more I felt like I was on an Oprah or Martha Stewart forum.
This guy posts this increadible clip that shows crazy strength and proves how far we can all go if we want that kind of power and a bunch of young, much smaller guys write to ctitique form that wasn't even that bad? Increadible.
Kudos to the guy lifting that weight, that was intense.

Meat_Head
12-16-2005, 12:41 PM
If we are talking about a RAW 500 lbs squat to parallel or below I simply cannot agree MeatHead.

Only a small percentage of the population can achieve such a milestone.

Heck, if you look back to the pre-steroid era a 500 lbs squat was HUGE.

I meant squat 500 in full gear, after years of serious and proper training. Like if you took a guy off the street who looked just plain weak, forced him to train with Dave Tate for 5 years, put him in a suit and made him squat.

But I'd say a 370-400lb below parallel squat without any gear is about equal to that.

Meat_Head
12-16-2005, 12:48 PM
Meathead: you say it happens almost never in any kind of athletics, well for that one time out of a million it does? what do you do then? An athlete should be ready for anything. A powerful full squat can help out alot when you're on the bottom end of BJJ fighting your opponent off. That's all glutes and hams. There are several scenarios I can think of that it may help out on.


What one time out of a million are you talking about? Can you name any that have happened recently? If you actually had to hyperextend your hip flexors like that in a sport, say making a cut in football, you're going to get injured or you're going to lose your balance. What you're doing in the weightroom would do little to prevent that, its simply not a position your legs are made to handle a ton of stress/weight in.

Chubrock
12-16-2005, 12:59 PM
This thread is insane, the more I read, the more I felt like I was on an Oprah or Martha Stewart forum.
This guy posts this increadible clip that shows crazy strength and proves how far we can all go if we want that kind of power and a bunch of young, much smaller guys write to ctitique form that wasn't even that bad? Increadible.
Kudos to the guy lifting that weight, that was intense.


Just so you know, several of the guys that are critiquing his form, are not only bigger, but stronger as well...

Maki Riddington
12-16-2005, 05:15 PM
If he dropped 40-50lbs off the bar and did perfect form below parallel squats instead, the only thing you'd be testing is the strength of his glutes in their almost completely stretched position, which happens almost never in any kind of athletics or daily life.

I was unaware that this is a functional test one can use to asess athletes.

How would squatting below parallel be used as a measurment of the strength in the glutes?

In Judo, squatting below parallel happens quite often. Have you ever watched a tournament?

Maki Riddington
12-16-2005, 05:18 PM
What one time out of a million are you talking about? Can you name any that have happened recently? If you actually had to hyperextend your hip flexors like that in a sport, say making a cut in football, you're going to get injured or you're going to lose your balance. What you're doing in the weightroom would do little to prevent that, its simply not a position your legs are made to handle a ton of stress/weight in.

How would you hyperextend the hip flexors by making a cut in football?

SpecialK
12-16-2005, 06:49 PM
Since we are talking about bad form:
http://www.irongame.com/videos/20050525/WPOFinals.2004,October10th,SuperHeavyweightSquats.wmv

and those guys call themselves "powerlifters"

Wow, those lifts were amazing. And you were being sarcastic about the bad form, right? It looked like they all kept their backs pretty straight and didn't good AM the weight. I'm not a PLer so I just had to ask.

KevinStarke
12-16-2005, 06:59 PM
haha

Manveet
12-16-2005, 07:12 PM
Wow, those lifts were amazing. And you were being sarcastic about the bad form, right? It looked like they all kept their backs pretty straight and didn't good AM the weight. I'm not a PLer so I just had to ask.

Well, I was being sarcastic.

That's because people are questioning the guy's depth.

I really dont see much, if any, difference in depth between the sanctioned powerlifters and the guy from the initial video.

MixmasterNash
12-16-2005, 08:24 PM
Well, I was being sarcastic.

That's because people are questioning the guy's depth.

I really dont see much, if any, difference in depth between the sanctioned powerlifters and the guy from the initial video.

Those were huge weights but some of the crappiest depths I've ever seen.

Maybe it was the camera angle, but I'm skeptical. Are those all from the same meet? Even more skeptical if so; probably a lenient judge.

MM
12-16-2005, 08:56 PM
I absolutely agree. I thought the depth there was very questionable, on nearly every lift. The first WR looked good, other than that I was somewhat dubious.

WillKuenzel
12-16-2005, 09:01 PM
That's the WPO. Typically they are a bit more lenient federation where IPF tends to be a bit more strict, even with regards to equipment use and completed lifts.

Sensei
12-16-2005, 10:29 PM
Well, I was being sarcastic.
That's because people are questioning the guy's depth.
I really dont see much, if any, difference in depth between the sanctioned powerlifters and the guy from the initial video.
Those guys are amazing and I know for a fact that many of them can easy rep out with 700-800 below parallel and totally raw in the gym, but they ALL looked high to me in that clip.

This thread is really going absolutely nowhere...

HILL
12-17-2005, 05:52 AM
Dam they are some impressive lifts

Stumprrp
12-17-2005, 08:01 AM
405 x 15 is just insane, lol, i collapsed with him on that one, his friend is funny

galileo
12-17-2005, 08:14 AM
A testament to great endurance, regardless of form or weight.

See, we can all be positive in here.

Mad Max
12-17-2005, 10:13 AM
In my first month of going to the gym, I saw a bunch of guys squatting 600lbs for 12-20 reps. One guy did 20 reps ass to feet. This has forever tainted my notion of what's impressive in the gym and what isn't. I assumed after that, that any big guy could squat 600lbs for reps. Obviously this isn't true, but I still can't get the vision of that 600lb twenty rep set of ATF squats out of my head, that is why that video didn't impress me.

dw06wu
12-17-2005, 10:50 AM
20 reps a2f is not impressive, its ridiculous. Tom Platz gets trashed from 500*23 in that one video. Also, if you can move something 20 times its basically bitch weight. That guy could probably squat 800 a2f for a heavy single, which is crazy heavy.

Canadian Crippler
12-17-2005, 11:01 AM
In my first month of going to the gym, I saw a bunch of guys squatting 600lbs for 12-20 reps. One guy did 20 reps ass to feet. This has forever tainted my notion of what's impressive in the gym and what isn't. I assumed after that, that any big guy could squat 600lbs for reps. Obviously this isn't true, but I still can't get the vision of that 600lb twenty rep set of ATF squats out of my head, that is why that video didn't impress me.I would love to see someone doing 600lbs ATF for 20 reps. Sounds like BS to me, sorry.

BIGERIC
12-17-2005, 03:13 PM
I would love to see someone doing 600lbs ATF for 20 reps. Sounds like BS to me, sorry.

Don't you get tired of people on these forums commenting on subjects they know nothing about? The only person I ever heard of doing anything close to that is Tom Platz he would do 500 for sets of 20. You are right CC this guy is full of crap.

BIGERIC
12-17-2005, 03:15 PM
20 reps a2f is not impressive, its ridiculous. Tom Platz gets trashed from 500*23 in that one video. Also, if you can move something 20 times its basically bitch weight. That guy could probably squat 800 a2f for a heavy single, which is crazy heavy.
sorry DW I didnt see your comment before I made mine.

Mad Max
12-18-2005, 07:38 AM
I know what I saw. 6 plates either side 45lbs as well each, which actually works out to slightly less than 600lbs, but he always does ATF. The gym went crazy. I find it hard believing my own memory of the event in hindsight. But I saw him doing sets of 12 reps with the same weight recently, ATF again.

chris mason
12-18-2005, 03:52 PM
Why not go up to him and ask who he is?

Also, why not take a video of him for us all to see?

Meat_Head
12-18-2005, 04:05 PM
I was unaware that this is a functional test one can use to asess athletes.

How would squatting below parallel be used as a measurment of the strength in the glutes?

In Judo, squatting below parallel happens quite often. Have you ever watched a tournament?

Depending on your form and body mechanics, squatting below parallel is extremely dependent on the strength of the glutes. The further down you go, the more its dependent on how strong your glutes are in a very stretch position. I acknowledge that occasionally athletes do squat ass to grass while participating in their sports, but it is very infrequent, and if there is alot of stress or pressure in that position there's a much much greater chance of injury to everything from the posterior chain muscles to your knees. Basically, if you train 2 twins on the exact same squat routine but had one going ATG and one only to what would pass in a powerlifting meet, there would not be a significant difference in strength at the end of the routine. In fact I wouldn't be suprised if gains in posterior chain strength were almost identical.

Mad Max
12-19-2005, 05:12 AM
Why not go up to him and ask who he is?

I know who he is, he owns the gym, he's nobody famous.


Also, why not take a video of him for us all to see?

I hardly know him.

So I take it you guys find this feat too hard to believe. 585lbs 20 reps ATF, with a belt. Well you have me doubting my memory now, it was in my first few weeks of going to the gym, so I could be mistaken. But I've definitely seen another guy do 16 reps parallel with that weight, and I've definitely seen the ATF guy do sets of 12.

Rex
12-19-2005, 09:23 AM
Depending on your form and body mechanics, squatting below parallel is extremely dependent on the strength of the glutes. The further down you go, the more its dependent on how strong your glutes are in a very stretch position. I acknowledge that occasionally athletes do squat ass to grass while participating in their sports, but it is very infrequent, and if there is alot of stress or pressure in that position there's a much much greater chance of injury to everything from the posterior chain muscles to your knees. Basically, if you train 2 twins on the exact same squat routine but had one going ATG and one only to what would pass in a powerlifting meet, there would not be a significant difference in strength at the end of the routine. In fact I wouldn't be suprised if gains in posterior chain strength were almost identical.

If glutes are part of the posterior chain, and ATG squatting activates the glutes to a much larger degree than parallel squats, how is it that strength gains in the posterior chain would be practically identical between ATG and parallel?

smalls
12-19-2005, 12:14 PM
I acknowledge that occasionally athletes do squat ass to grass while participating in their sports, but it is very infrequent, and if there is alot of stress or pressure in that position there's a much much greater chance of injury to everything from the posterior chain muscles to your knees.


Are you stating ATF squats lead to greater chance of injury to the knees. If so please back it up with something other than BS, or STFU. Thanks.

MixmasterNash
12-19-2005, 12:37 PM
Are you stating ATF squats lead to greater chance of injury to the knees. If so please back it up with something other than BS, or STFU. Thanks.
ATF squats are dangerous for the knees if your calves are big enough and you go so deep or bounce so as to dislocate the knees (not as uncommon as it sounds).

However, done correctly, ATF squats are safer for the knees. It has been longer understood in olympic lifting that it is dangerous to catch the lift in half squat near parallel because this maximizes torque on the knees. Thus, power cleans/snatches are caught very high so the weight is supported by the skeleton and the full lifts are caught deep so that the hips and glutes support most of the weight.

Maki Riddington
12-19-2005, 05:21 PM
Depending on your form and body mechanics, squatting below parallel is extremely dependent on the strength of the glutes. The further down you go, the more its dependent on how strong your glutes are in a very stretch position. I acknowledge that occasionally athletes do squat ass to grass while participating in their sports, but it is very infrequent, and if there is alot of stress or pressure in that position there's a much much greater chance of injury to everything from the posterior chain muscles to your knees. Basically, if you train 2 twins on the exact same squat routine but had one going ATG and one only to what would pass in a powerlifting meet, there would not be a significant difference in strength at the end of the routine. In fact I wouldn't be suprised if gains in posterior chain strength were almost identical.

Squatting below parallel does inlcude the glutes to a greater degree however I would not use this as a way of testing if someone was weak or strong in the glute region.

What tell tale signs would you look for if the glutes were weak and how do you differeniate between weak glutes and glutes that are inhibited?

Meat_Head
12-20-2005, 02:12 PM
If glutes are part of the posterior chain, and ATG squatting activates the glutes to a much larger degree than parallel squats, how is it that strength gains in the posterior chain would be practically identical between ATG and parallel?

Going ATG will make your glutes stronger in a very stretched position. Like I said, that strength would hardly ever be needed for anything in daily life or athletics, therefore in most cases its an unnecissary risk(there are exceptions though). I meant the strength gained in the most functional ROM would be almost identical, or maybe even better for the one who doesn't go ATG.

Meat_Head
12-20-2005, 02:16 PM
Squatting below parallel does inlcude the glutes to a greater degree however I would not use this as a way of testing if someone was weak or strong in the glute region.

What tell tale signs would you look for if the glutes were weak and how do you differeniate between weak glutes and glutes that are inhibited?

For weak glutes I'd look for an inability to 'sit back' while squatting, frequent loss of balance and form when trying to do so. Although in most cases that could be significantly improved by tweaking the stance and form a person uses(with practice). I assume by inhibited you mean not flexible, and the signs would be the same: can't keep the upperbody upright enough(bends over too much), can't 'sit back' in a squat, knees come too far forward, etc.

Maki Riddington
01-07-2006, 09:39 PM
No, I meant how do you tell between someone who doesn't know how to fire their glute muscles and someone who has weak glutes? There is a difference.

If you don't know then you're going to have a tough time assessing someone.

zer06ame
01-09-2006, 08:30 AM
i didn't find that video all that impressive
i just started doing squats 3 weeks ago and my third time ever doing them i did 275x8 with form better than his and i only weigh 153lbs :-\
i mean, i didn't go nearly as fast as him, on his 20 set but i still don't think it was anything amazing, i spotted a guy doing 365 atg x 12 yesterday, now that's something i find impressive

KevinStarke
01-09-2006, 09:18 AM
You should make a video then to show his form up, definitelly interested to see that squat.

Meat_Head
01-11-2006, 01:01 PM
No, I meant how do you tell between someone who doesn't know how to fire their glute muscles and someone who has weak glutes? There is a difference.

If you don't know then you're going to have a tough time assessing someone.

That's dependent on their form, one of the things I mentioned. If their knees are being pushed forward and if their upperbody bends over too far, they aren't 'firing' their glute muscles properly. With those people form, strength, and acceleration gets worse and worse the deeper they try to go as they don't know how to use their glutes to take over the weight.

ArchAngel777
01-11-2006, 01:15 PM
I support ATF squats because it works the entire range of motion. I am a big fan of working an entire range of motion in any lift. It is very important and I believe it reduces injury.

For instance, someone can Squat 500 pounds parallel, but can only ATF 300 (because he does not train ATF) what happens when he accidently takes that 500 too lower? The muscles will not be able to handle that and you could get a major injury. I advise ATF Squats in all training. That is just my opinion though.

dw06wu
01-11-2006, 03:33 PM
I support ATF squats because it works the entire range of motion. I am a big fan of working an entire range of motion in any lift. It is very important and I believe it reduces injury.

For instance, someone can Squat 500 pounds parallel, but can only ATF 300 (because he does not train ATF) what happens when he accidently takes that 500 too lower? The muscles will not be able to handle that and you could get a major injury. I advise ATF Squats in all training. That is just my opinion though.
Parallel's about as low as I can go, wider than shoulder width.