Doses after reaching natural limit?

[Iron1]

I've worked out for over 15 years and I feel like I've hit my natural limits. My last cycle was just 8 weeks of 500mg/week of test enanthate. I got good results but not what I was expecting. I did everything correct, diet, protein, calories, workout, rest, etc. My question is does having reached your natural potential justify running a little higher doses or should I have just ran it out longer?

[RBB]

you should have run it at least 10-12 weeks. 8 weeks is cutting it a little short. you didn't really give any stats, height/weight? i suppose if you were truly at your natural limit, bumping up the dose could be helpful. however, people who have truly maxed out naturally are few and far between. regardless, i would guess if you didn't gain as much as you were expecting you either a)didn't get enough cals, or b)were expecting too much.

[Iron1]

Thanks for the reply. By natural limit I meant I thought I was as big as I could get without taking gear. I'm 5'8" 200 lbs, not sure of BF but I have a slight gut that needs to go.
I'll probably go with 600mg/wk test e and 600mg/wk EQ with 30mg/day D-bol for 1st 6 weeks and run the total cycle 16 weeks. What do you think?

[Shark]

That's quite the jump from 500 for 8 weeks bro. Why not just frontload and run a higer dosage, something like 600mg for 12 weeks?

[RBB]

yeah that seems like overkill to me too. i'd go with what chris suggested. frontload with a gram of test and run 600mg for 12 weeks. keep the dbol in there at 30-40mg/day for 6 weeks or so. that's a real solid cycle to put on some mass.

[Iron1]

thanks

[Shark]

Don't frontload with a gram, frontload with exactly twice what you will be shooting for the rest of the cycle. Eg: if you're going to run 500 a week frontload with two shots of 500 the first week. If you're going to run 600 a week then frontload with two shots of 600 the first week.

[HILL]

I agree with chris. 12 weeks should be fine and if you didnt get the results you wanted last time eat more this time alot more

[antor]

I'm getting obsessed with the idea of running Testosterone Enanthate for 12 weeks then using Nolvadex for PCT nice simple starter course!

Then again I keep asking myself should I.

@ 6ft1 190lbs am i heavy enough to consider this is a option.

[smalls]

It's not about being heavy enough. It's about being ready for the consequences and actually understanding what your getting into. It's also about having the knowledge of diet/training, your own body, and drugs.

[IRN-BRU]

I've worked out for over 15 years and I feel like I've hit my natural limits. My last cycle was just 8 weeks of 500mg/week of test enanthate. I got good results but not what I was expecting. I did everything correct, diet, protein, calories, workout, rest, etc. My question is does having reached your natural potential justify running a little higher doses or should I have just ran it out longer?

How much weight did you put on in the 8 weeks? How much did you lose quickly that you think was water? Did you just get too much fat or something, or did you not actually gain weight?

Can anyone else give an indication of how quickly you gained weight on your Test@500/wk cycle? Please give your weight and BF etc at the time, and how you felt it went in terms of fat vs muscle.

[RBB]

How much weight did you put on in the 8 weeks? How much did you lose quickly that you think was water? Did you just get too much fat or something, or did you not actually gain weight?

Can anyone else give an indication of how quickly you gained weight on your Test@500/wk cycle? Please give your weight and BF etc at the time, and how you felt it went in terms of fat vs muscle.

i ran my first cycle for 12 weeks starting in august. test e 500mg/wk, 30mg dbol/day weeks 1-4. i started out at 200 lbs. at about 8%. by the end of week 6 i was up to about 230. i felt like crap though, couldn't catch my breath walking up stairs, always sweating, knees were starting to hurt. so i decided i would cut my cals down and try to put on just a few more lbs while losing a bit of fat for the final six weeks. so i ended up at 235 at 10-12%. i can tell you though if i would have kept the cals as high as the first six weeks i think i could have easily gained 50+ lbs. for me that would've been too much too fast. you'll have no problem gaining a lot of muscle mass with 500mg test/wk.

i see a lot of threads saying "i eat so much food and i'm not gaining weight. i don't know why." its seems pretty obvious to me. if you didn't gain the weight you were expecting to gain and your training was in line then you were not eating enough. eat more.

[Gutz981]

Sorry for the perhaps noobish question but I'm trying to learn as much as possible. The 30 mg of Dbol for the first 4 weeks, I've seen alot of people throw that in there whats it do for ya?

[RBB]

dbol hits your system quickly, so while you're waiting for the test e to kick in you've got the dbol giving your cycle a nice little kick start. imo, dbol is great for strength and mass gains. conversely, you can run it the last few weeks of your cycle while waiting for the test e to clear your system.

[deeder]

dbol hits your system quickly, so while you're waiting for the test e to kick in you've got the dbol giving your cycle a nice little kick start. imo, dbol is great for strength and mass gains. conversely, you can run it the last few weeks of your cycle while waiting for the test e to clear your system.

What would be the purpose of running it at the end? :scratch:

[RBB]

What would be the purpose of running it at the end? :scratch:
it would help you maintain your gains while waiting for a long ester to clear your system. let's say you were running test e and going to start pct 2 weeks after your last shot. you could start running the dbol 2 weeks before your last shot and continue with it right up until pct. dbol has a very short half life, so its out of your system in a day or so.

[Hatred]

I'll have to repost my rather wonderful response that was lost when the server crashed.

You will go out of your ****ing mind on 600mg of EQ.
If you didn't get the gains you wanted from the last cycle then you need to reassess your diet.
More gear does not always equal more gains.
I can say this to you because I have been down this road.

The last time I wanted to put serious weight on I gained 15lbs in 30days ...10 weeks into a cycle to see if I could do it.
That was on 750mg of test E.

[Silverback]

I'm getting obsessed with the idea of running Testosterone Enanthate for 12 weeks then using Nolvadex for PCT nice simple starter course!

Then again I keep asking myself should I.

@ 6ft1 190lbs am i heavy enough to consider this is a option.

The Cycle plan sounds perfect, but me being the same height as you. Id wait, because at 190lbs there was no way in hell i needed AAS. Put in some work and get up to atleast 220lbs first and assess from their.

[imageD]

why is everyone so set on the idea that you have to be a a certain weight to use AAS? 220lbs on one's frame can be a lot different than 220 on someone else. Like others have said, it's more about your mental preparation and readiness for AAS than anything. Knowledge is power.

[RBB]

It's not about being heavy enough. It's about being ready for the consequences and actually understanding what your getting into. It's also about having the knowledge of diet/training, your own body, and drugs.
that's not what everyone is saying. i agree with smalls. you must have the knowledge. although i think you should build a pretty decent natural physique before you use. and you're not going to be able to do that without the diet/training knowledge. one goes with the other.

[HahnB]

The Cycle plan sounds perfect, but me being the same height as you. Id wait, because at 190lbs there was no way in hell i needed AAS. Put in some work and get up to atleast 220lbs first and assess from their.

People are different. If I had waited to get to 220lbs before doing a cycle that would have meant me gaining almost 100lbs naturally.

[Belial]

Simple rules on dosage:

1) Once you introduce exogenous hormones, you will shut your body down. This does not take more than a few injections. So dosages don't really matter. The TYPE of compound (test, DHT-derived, nandrolones, etc.) and metabolites thereof will do a lot more to determine how long you will take to get back on your feet, hormonally speaking.

2) Diminishing returns. Those first 500mg a week will be a lot more noticeable than the second 500mg. The body can only synthesize so many contractile proteins in any given time frame. Oversaturating the AR's won't do a whole lot.

3) Sides. Though returns diminish with higher dosages, sides do the exact opposite. 400 mg/week of test, no problem. 4000mg/week of test... well, you're either running nolva, exemestane, and letrozole, or you're watching The Notebook over and over while putting your own breast milk in your coffee.

4) Duration and tolerance. Lower dosages over a longer time will have the same effects, roughly speaking, as a slightly higher dosage over a shorter time. In addition, you don't run the aforementioned higher risk of sides, and more importantly, the higher risk of exceeding your skill at given lifts, not to mention your connective tissue's tolerance.


So what it boils down to... Until you're SURE you need more, take as little as possible of the simplest compounds there are, I'd recommend straight test. Run it for 12 weeks, and have your post cycle therapy dialed in. Watch your lipids, watch your blood pressure, and train like a god damn beast. Gear is never a shortcut, as a guy who's trained for 15 years, you should have no youthful dreams of overnight superstardom. Be content with 5-10 quality pounds of muscle off your cycle, and understand that if you're truly at your limit, whatever you gain you'll eventually lose, and even those gains will come slowly.

Good luck, man.

[SpecialK]

Simple rules on dosage:

1) Once you introduce exogenous hormones, you will shut your body down. This does not take more than a few injections. So dosages don't really matter. The TYPE of compound (test, DHT-derived, nandrolones, etc.) and metabolites thereof will do a lot more to determine how long you will take to get back on your feet, hormonally speaking.

2) Diminishing returns. Those first 500mg a week will be a lot more noticeable than the second 500mg. The body can only synthesize so many contractile proteins in any given time frame. Oversaturating the AR's won't do a whole lot.

3) Sides. Though returns diminish with higher dosages, sides do the exact opposite. 400 mg/week of test, no problem. 4000mg/week of test... well, you're either running nolva, exemestane, and letrozole, or you're watching The Notebook over and over while putting your own breast milk in your coffee.

4) Duration and tolerance. Lower dosages over a longer time will have the same effects, roughly speaking, as a slightly higher dosage over a shorter time. In addition, you don't run the aforementioned higher risk of sides, and more importantly, the higher risk of exceeding your skill at given lifts, not to mention your connective tissue's tolerance.


So what it boils down to... Until you're SURE you need more, take as little as possible of the simplest compounds there are, I'd recommend straight test. Run it for 12 weeks, and have your post cycle therapy dialed in. Watch your lipids, watch your blood pressure, and train like a god damn beast. Gear is never a shortcut, as a guy who's trained for 15 years, you should have no youthful dreams of overnight superstardom. Be content with 5-10 quality pounds of muscle off your cycle, and understand that if you're truly at your limit, whatever you gain you'll eventually lose, and even those gains will come slowly.

Good luck, man.

Does that mean that if one is truly at their limit, they would have to remain on AAS indefinitely to keep making improvements?

[Silverback]

People are different. If I had waited to get to 220lbs before doing a cycle that would have meant me gaining almost 100lbs naturally.

Im sorry but 6'1-6'2 @ 190lbs is undermuscled anyway you box it up!

[HahnB]

Im sorry but 6'1-6'2 @ 190lbs is undermuscled anyway you box it up!

I'm simply stating that saying that everyone should reach the same body weight before using anabolics makes no sense.

[RBB]

Does that mean that if one is truly at their limit, they would have to remain on AAS indefinitely to keep making improvements?
that's exactly what it means. you would have to stay on merely to maintain any gains, let alone make more progress.

[HahnB]

Does anyone have any solid evidence about raising your bodys set point? Is this possible if you maintain a weight over your natural limit for a extended period of time? I remember reading about it in a my psych book but I'm too lazy to get it out right now.

[spencerjrus]

Does anyone have any solid evidence about raising your bodys set point? Is this possible if you maintain a weight over your natural limit for a extended period of time? I remember reading about it in a my psych book but I'm too lazy to get it out right now.


I dont have any sources to paste off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure this is possible. I've read quite extensively about permanently speeding up or slowing down your metabolism, which by result will cause you to be able to change your bodys set point for weight.

[RBB]

i don't think speeding up or slowing down your metabolism would help you raise your set point for weight. think about it, you gain muscle mass and your metabolism raises. but your metabolism has nothing to do with the maximum amount of muscle mass you can carry. that's set by various factors, with the biggest probably being your test levels. you can only carry so much lean mass with your endogenous levels of test. once you get past that point, you will need exogenous hormones to maintain that mass.

if juicing gets you past your natural limit then you go clean, you can probably hold onto those gains for awhile. however, if you stay clean you're going to gradually go back to your natural limit.

[spencerjrus]

i don't think speeding up or slowing down your metabolism would help you raise your set point for weight. think about it, you gain muscle mass and your metabolism raises. but your metabolism has nothing to do with the maximum amount of muscle mass you can carry. that's set by various factors, with the biggest probably being your test levels. you can only carry so much lean mass with your endogenous levels of test. once you get past that point, you will need exogenous hormones to maintain that mass.

if juicing gets you past your natural limit then you go clean, you can probably hold onto those gains for awhile. however, if you stay clean you're going to gradually go back to your natural limit.

While your body type is a factor as well, a faster metabolism will result in a lower set point for weight, and vice versa. There are many means of controlling metabolism without gaining or losing muscle mass.

[Belial]

The concept of a "set point" is murky at best, there's little concrete evidence that a set point is something strictly genetically determined; there's undoubtedly a huge non-genetic component to the most important factor here, your endocrine system, (both a genetically and an environmentally controlled system), which includes relative insulin sensitivity, thyroid hormone production, natural androgen levels, cortisol levels, etc... Large lifestyle changes can result in a significant change in your "set point".

For the most part, though, 15 years of training has probably seen you go through several major lifestyle changes, which means your muscle mass/body composition has most likely been fluctuating within a pretty slim margin. If you use exogenous compounds to go past this point, there is no reason your body should be able to maintain the added tissue; you will indeed lose it.

In fact, coming off cycle may result in a significant period of suppressed natural production, especially with the use of more esoteric compounds.

So, long story short, RBB is right.

[spencerjrus]

The concept of a "set point" is murky at best, there's little concrete evidence that a set point is something strictly genetically determined; there's undoubtedly a huge non-genetic component to the most important factor here, your endocrine system, (both a genetically and an environmentally controlled system), which includes relative insulin sensitivity, thyroid hormone production, natural androgen levels, cortisol levels, etc... Large lifestyle changes can result in a significant change in your "set point".

For the most part, though, 15 years of training has probably seen you go through several major lifestyle changes, which means your muscle mass/body composition has most likely been fluctuating within a pretty slim margin. If you use exogenous compounds to go past this point, there is no reason your body should be able to maintain the added tissue; you will indeed lose it.

In fact, coming off cycle may result in a significant period of suppressed natural production, especially with the use of more esoteric compounds.

So, long story short, RBB is right.


You're talking about something completely different.

[bill]

Excellent posting Belial, you should have your own column. LOL

[Belial]

You're talking about something completely different.

Am I? HahnB was talking about your body's maximum fat-free mass, the amount of muscle that can be held without excessive amounts of body fat, often this is what people talk about when they say they've reached their genetic limit. You can always hold a little more muscle, but the amount of excess calories needed to build and maintain that added metabolically active tissue (muscle) and remain in positive nitrogen balance in the absence of exogenous hormones will usually result in tremendous gains in bodyfat.

That's usually what the set point refers to in this context.

If I'm mistaken, please let me know.

[eps]

This might be too big of a question (too many factors involved into answering it), but... what would be the limit of a guy my height/age? (if there's a general range). It would be nice to know what's realistic and what's not.

[RBB]

This might be too big of a question (too many factors involved into answering it), but... what would be the limit of a guy my height/age? (if there's a general range). It would be nice to know what's realistic and what's not.
just like you said, there are so many factors involved in a question like that. body type, endocrine system, etc. i'd say an average (genetics wise) person of your height would be doing extremely well to be a lean 220 or so.