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Sensei
01-06-2006, 11:54 PM
I thought this was an interesting enough discussion to merit a new thread...

Actually power and hang olympic lifts are far more effective for athletics in general as they allow you to overload that explosive pull and shrug without the deep knee bend. The deep squat in the full oly lifts pretty much all about form, balance, and flexibility.Not sure I agree with you here Meat... Most people, including athletes, have absolute horrific form on power cleans. There is no triple extension and it often little more than a short leg dip and a swing...

I'm no expert on the olympic lifts, but Gary Valentine, a many time masters national champion, is. Here is a post he made at another forum speaking about a forum member's refusal to do full cleans (the person he is talking about is, btw, a semi-regular at WBB...)

Well, this is pretty interesting guys, mind if i jump in?! One of the things i see often relating to OL, and seems to be XXX's view (my best guess with info provided) is that its somehow more manly to do a "power" or "muscle" clean than a squat clean! even if its with less weight than our 48 kg women do. take the following quote from XXX - "yeah but then it wouldn't be a powerclean anymore :) I don't consider a hamstrings down to parallel a powerclean, that's like no man's land." Now, donít misunderstand me here. any lifting is good, and people should do whatever they enjoy. But, as was sharply picked up on by Demir above in my advice "for YEARS" to XXX is true - the power clean is an assistance lift, and a poor one at that, done this way anyway. I especially donít teach it to beginners. Watching XXX is proof of why. Again, I am not knocking him at all, I am speaking purely about learning how to lift weights. For whatever reason, he is clinging to pulling the weight higher with his arms only, very, very unsafe and inefficient - NOT A POWERCLEAN!.

Watch his vids closely, especially this latest miss with 229. Right from the floor, and certainly as the bar gets to mid thigh, the hips rise faster than the head, the arms bend too soon, the mid back especially rounds out - all in preparation to use these muscles for a high pull swing jump with back and arms. YOU CANNOT SQUAT CLEAN THIS WAY! You have no idea where the bar will land if you swing it like that with your back, and any successful attempts will be lucky catches at best. The legs have straightened and are useless at this point. What really bothers me here is people think that this is strength. This is not strength. This is poor biomechanics, the continued practice of which will do nothing but dig a deeper hole motor pattern-wise and will have to be reversed, if possible, to someday lift big weight.
Please, I'm 47 and I snatch that for triples regularly at the same bodyweight. I'm not bragging, I'm pointing out that throwing around light weights inefficiently should not be called "strength". Itís ignorance of proper technique, which is nothing to be proud of. When that ignorance is on purpose, it bothers me. Again, i do not mean "ignorance" in a derogatory way. I mean he just doesnít know the right way,(which is why i tried to help him), but if thatís on purpose because of some he-man stubborness to do more weight without technique, then that is ignorance to the point of stupidity, regardless of who does it. And good points above too, that sometime this is done to avoid any real comparisons to others - the "imagine what I could do if I had technique" routine. Ridiculous.

Need more proof? Stand in a power rack with 500 or more loaded on long pins just above knee height. Try upright rowing it, or reverse curling it. Didnít move did it? Now try to just stand up and shrug it with straight arms, keeping low back tight as you come off pins. Thatís weightlifing in a nutshell. Anything you can stand up with hard like that and get moving past your bellybutton with momentum, you should be able to clean - if youíre
fast, crazy enough to jump under it, and strong enough to stand up with it. Iíve done a double with 810 standing up from the pins, and didnít go higher only because we couldnít fit more on the bar (I have photos). Is that technique, or strength???

Yes, I said he could be doing 275 if he'd learn how, but he has not learned how, and will not learn how with this technique. Put it this way, if he was power cleaning correctly, a squat clean would be a snap - the pull should not be different! And here's the crux of what Iíve learned in OL for 25 years, having done BB and PL early on. OL takes courage. great power, athletic skill, and yes courage. You have to be crazy to actually get off the ground and fly under weights that weigh much more than you. I believe this is
why people cling to the "pull it higher" mentality with baby weights. And this is why "power cleaning" this way is not power cleaning, and is detrimental. When you stand up with the weight with a solid spine and straight arms and violently jump and shrug it, you either have to get off the ground momentarily and fly under it with amazing body speed, or wimp out by standing there and pulling it up with arms and back, feet glued to the
ground. You can not do both. Period. Joe Mills called it "lifting with abandon". THAT is a different world. No spotter. Just you and the weight. This is athletic body awareness, combined with great power. I do not criticize those not willing to "go there", especially without coaching. But, it can be learned, step by step very safely with empty bar, for those who have the patience. So, if it feels good, do it. But, if you want to lift
the big weights, learn how to use your body. Itís not about competing as a weightlifter or not. Itís training correctly, efficiently and safely, and the way that gets the most weight overhead.
Definately food for thought....

MixmasterNash
01-07-2006, 08:28 AM
The kids who power clean at my school gym are ex-high school football players and all they do are hang power reverse curls with the most insane looping motion I have ever seen.

ArchAngel777
01-07-2006, 08:31 AM
I agree with Mr Valentine for the most part. But I wasn't going to continue the discussion due to beating a dead horse. But since someone else created this thread, I am feeling free to discuss it further.

The paragraph from meathead that started this has a pretty big flaw in it. Athletic ability is defined as what? He summed it up himself in the last sentance and then attributed it to Squat Cleans... :D In other words, he admitted that Squat Cleans create a superior athlete.

He said
Actually power and hang olympic lifts are far more effective for athletics in general

The said
The deep squat in the full oly lifts pretty much all about form, balance, and flexibility.

To clarify my statement, you are essentially saying Athletic is only strength and power, when that is false, it includes all those things you listed for the Squat Clean. Keep in mind that a power clean @ 225 isn't anymore effort than a Squat Clean at 275, and I would say the Squat Clean takes MORE effort, because it turns into a Front Squat... :D :D :D Comments, feel free...

jack_of_all
01-07-2006, 09:52 AM
i pretty much agree with the gary valentine post (which is funny because i have piss poor clean form). and the part about having to be a little bit crazy to just fall under weight that is much heavier than you, i totally agree with. seriously, if you ****ed up, it could be disastrous (probably the biggest reason i would love to be a pl'er but not an ol'er)

Meat_Head
01-07-2006, 01:08 PM
Oh man where to start...

First off, NO ONE should be performing an exercise with bad form. I would never suggest that anyone do any kind of olympic lift if they don't know how to do them.

That whole article is based on the idea that any athlete who performs power or hang cleans does them wrong. It goes on further to support the idea that because you move more weight on squat cleans/snatches, they are obviously superior to hang or power lifts. Here's the thing, the athlete that frequently full cleans 300lbs from the floor is still only PULLING with as much force as his powerclean. The only difference is that with a squat clean he doesn't have to pull it as high(because he squats under to catch it).

If I'm trying to overload that ROM and those muscle groups with heavy weight, I'm going for deadlifts/squats 99% of the time, hands down.

About my comment about "form, balance, and flexibility", those aspects of athleticism are improved very little by what you do in the weight room as opposed to what you do when you're actually practicing your sport. That's not to say what you do in the weightroom can't help, but for sport specific athletes lifting is rarely the solution for form, balance, and flexibility problems in regards to that specific sport because those aspects should already be well developed.

If I'm inflexible I'm not going to attempt oly lifts with bad form, risking an injury... I'm gonna STRETCH.

BigRic
01-07-2006, 01:31 PM
Not really adding to the argument, BUT, I find it easier to squat catch the bar on hang cleans rather than power cleans.

Sensei
01-07-2006, 02:29 PM
Oh man where to start...
First off, NO ONE should be performing an exercise with bad form. I would never suggest that anyone do any kind of olympic lift if they don't know how to do them.
That whole article is based on the idea that any athlete who performs power or hang cleans does them wrong.No, it is not an article - it is a post referring to a specific person who, no question about it, does them incorrectly.... Maybe I just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I would say that over 90% of the powercleans I see in any given gym is pretty similar.

It goes on further to support the idea that because you move more weight on squat cleans/snatches, they are obviously superior to hang or power lifts. Here's the thing, the athlete that frequently full cleans 300lbs from the floor is still only PULLING with as much force as his powerclean. The only difference is that with a squat clean he doesn't have to pull it as high(because he squats under to catch it).I'm not following you here and I'm not trying to be facetious - so, using less weight and pulling it higher makes it a superior movement to you?

If I'm trying to overload that ROM and those muscle groups with heavy weight, I'm going for deadlifts/squats 99% of the time, hands down.Again, I'm not following you. Yes, you could do traditional squats, DLs, and high pulls and rationalize that it's the same thing and would benefit you in a similar manner as doing full OLs but we all know it's not...

About my comment about "form, balance, and flexibility", those aspects of athleticism are improved very little by what you do in the weight room as opposed to what you do when you're actually practicing your sport. That's not to say what you do in the weightroom can't help, but for sport specific athletes lifting is rarely the solution for form, balance, and flexibility problems in regards to that specific sport because those aspects should already be well developed.
Of course athletes need to be practicing their sport - no one is arguing anything different.

If I'm inflexible I'm not going to attempt oly lifts with bad form, risking an injury... I'm gonna STRETCH.Again, you're going off on a tangent - who recommended poor form on anything? Functional flexibility is developed by more than simply stretching.

Meat_Head
01-17-2006, 01:24 PM
No, it is not an article - it is a post referring to a specific person who, no question about it, does them incorrectly.... Maybe I just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I would say that over 90% of the powercleans I see in any given gym is pretty similar.


People who can't perform the movement right need to back off on weight and learn the form before they can truely benefit from it. I see no point in discussing people who can't perform them correctly as they should have 1 goal - learning the movement.



I'm not following you here and I'm not trying to be facetious - so, using less weight and pulling it higher makes it a superior movement to you?
Again, I'm not following you. Yes, you could do traditional squats, DLs, and high pulls and rationalize that it's the same thing and would benefit you in a similar manner as doing full OLs but we all know it's not...


Its not that using less weight and pulling it higher makes it superior, its that using more weight and squatting to catch is doesn't make it superior. When you do a full clean, you still pull with the same amount of force as your powerclean. In both cases you are powercleaning/high pulling/whatever you want to call it with the same maximal force(ideally). The only difference is, with full oly lifts you squat under the weight to catch it, because you can't move a heavier weight as far with that same high pull/power clean strength. The squat is to compensate for not being able to pull it high enough for a powerclean.

From an athletic standpoint, I do olympic lifts to strengthen the posterior chain muscles and to teach my body to "explode" more effectively. If I need to stress my posterior chain with heavy weight to overload those muscles, I'll do deadlifts as they allow the most weight to be used. I can then take the strength I gain from that and further develop/hone it for athletic use by performing power cleans or hang cleans with more weight than I could use before(thanks to improved deadlift strength). IMO that would be far more effective than taking time to learn full olympic lifts with heavy weight.



Of course athletes need to be practicing their sport - no one is arguing anything different.

Functional flexibility is developed by more than simply stretching.

My point there is that functional flexibility for one's sport is developed by practicing the sport and by stretching. The functional flexibility you gain from doing full cleans or snatches is different from the flexibility you need on the field, simply because nothing you do on the field involves moving a perfectly balanced barbell overhead in a squatting position. That isn't to say that what you do in the gym is worthless for functional flexibility, but it is a side effect and it is better developed by other exercises than full oly lifts. For example, you can perform and overload your legs for functional purposes with deep squats/overhead squats/lunges much quicker and easily than with full olympic lifts. The purpose of olympic lifting for athletes shouldn't be to develop flexibility. If anything, flexibility should be improved in order to help olympic lifts, not as the goal.

Rex
01-17-2006, 03:02 PM
For example, you can perform and overload your legs for functional purposes with deep squats/overhead squats/lunges much quicker and easily than with full olympic lifts.

lol. Both the Snatch and C&J inolve "deep squats". Furthermore, the Snatch involves a deep overhead squat. And the leg position/foot placement of the jerk is very similar to the lunge...

So how is that, "you can perform and overload your legs for functional purposes with deep squats/overhead squats/lunges much quicker and easily than with full olympic lifts"?

Meat_Head
01-18-2006, 09:45 AM
lol. Both the Snatch and C&J inolve "deep squats". Furthermore, the Snatch involves a deep overhead squat. And the leg position/foot placement of the jerk is very similar to the lunge...


Thanks for proving my point! There's no need to do a full snatch when you can do overhead squats or lunges, which essentially accomplish the same goal with an easier movement(to learn and to progress in).



So how is that, "you can perform and overload your legs for functional purposes with deep squats/overhead squats/lunges much quicker and easily than with full olympic lifts"?

How much practice does it take to learn deep squats and lunges? How bout for full olympic lifts? Which is easier to progressively add weight to, a full snatch or an overhead squat?

Anthony
01-18-2006, 10:07 AM
Olympic lifts are more difficult to learn because ... they are more difficult. Most people don't want to be challenged, so they look for something easier. Sure, you can argue that you overload your muscles more by deadlifting/squatting/military instead of a clean & jerk, but separately they don't produce the same results. Why? Triple flexation, amonst other things. If you want an example of why olympic lifts are better for athletic performance, take a world class olympic lifter and a world class powerlifter in the same weight class. Have each athlete perform C&J, Snatch, Squat, Bench, Deadlift ... who do you think comes out with a higher total? I could be wrong, but my guess is the olympic athlete would win 90-100% of the time. Why? Because the oly lifts make your entire body stronger. Powerlifts focus on 3 movements at the expense of everything else.

Don't get me wrong, powerlifting is great and so is olympic lifting. I respect whatever you choose. But in terms of athletic performance, I think it would be pretty difficult to argue against olympic lifts.

I also want to say that progress from training (in most aspects of fitness) is much faster than progress from practising sport. Sport is a test of your training.

ArchAngel777
01-18-2006, 10:53 AM
Olympic lifts are more difficult to learn because ... they are more difficult. Most people don't want to be challenged, so they look for something easier. Sure, you can argue that you overload your muscles more by deadlifting/squatting/military instead of a clean & jerk, but separately they don't produce the same results. Why? Triple flexation, amonst other things. If you want an example of why olympic lifts are better for athletic performance, take a world class olympic lifter and a world class powerlifter in the same weight class. Have each athlete perform C&J, Snatch, Squat, Bench, Deadlift ... who do you think comes out with a higher total? I could be wrong, but my guess is the olympic athlete would win 90-100% of the time. Why? Because the oly lifts make your entire body stronger. Powerlifts focus on 3 movements at the expense of everything else.

Don't get me wrong, powerlifting is great and so is olympic lifting. I respect whatever you choose. But in terms of athletic performance, I think it would be pretty difficult to argue against olympic lifts.

I also want to say that progress from training (in most aspects of fitness) is much faster than progress from practising sport. Sport is a test of your training.

/agree

Meat_Head
01-18-2006, 10:56 AM
Olympic lifts are more difficult to learn because ... they are more difficult. Most people don't want to be challenged, so they look for something easier. Sure, you can argue that you overload your muscles more by deadlifting/squatting/military instead of a clean & jerk, but separately they don't produce the same results. Why? Triple flexation, amonst other things.


I never argued for cutting olympic lifts out of your routine. Everyone should be doing some kind of olympic lifting. For most people, however, it isn't necissary to learn or perform full olympic lifts. The same if not better results can be attained by deadlifting/squatting/military or push presses/power or hang cleans/snatches.



If you want an example of why olympic lifts are better for athletic performance, take a world class olympic lifter and a world class powerlifter in the same weight class. Have each athlete perform C&J, Snatch, Squat, Bench, Deadlift ... who do you think comes out with a higher total? I could be wrong, but my guess is the olympic athlete would win 90-100% of the time. Why? Because the oly lifts make your entire body stronger. Powerlifts focus on 3 movements at the expense of everything else.


You don't think powerlifts make your entire body stronger? Both deadlifts and squats utilize virtually every major and minor muscle group in your body. The bench press utilizes your entire upperbody and depending on your form your lower body too(powerlifters frequently injure posterior chain muscles benching in meets).

What if you take that world class powerlifter and train him on power/hang cleans and practicing full cleans/snatches for 6-12 months? His total will ANNIHILATE the olympic athlete's.

Anthony
01-18-2006, 11:04 AM
For most people, however, it isn't necissary to learn or perform full olympic lifts. The same if not better results can be attained by deadlifting/squatting/military or push presses/power or hang cleans/snatches.
I guess it depends on your definition of "better results." If we are talking hypertrophy, sure. If we are talking athletic performance, I disagree.


You don't think powerlifts make your entire body stronger?
Yes, but not to the same degree as olympic lifts. When I said "at the expense of everything else" that was in reference to an article by Dave Tate who claimed the same thing. Not just strength in unfamiliar movements, but everything. Flexibility, conditioning, etc.


What if you take that world class powerlifter and train him on power/hang cleans and practicing full cleans/snatches for 6-12 months? His total will ANNIHILATE the olympic athlete's.
Unequipped? I doubt it. The olympic lifter would already have comparable squats/deads, so the only thing that might be lacking is bench press. I think learning to bench would be a lot easier than learning the snatch. Just my opinion, and there's no point in arguing it ... it was a hypothetical situation from the start. Unless either of us start comparing olympic totals with powerlifting totals, it's pointless. And I'm way to lazy to do that. :p

ArchAngel777
01-18-2006, 11:45 AM
What if you take that world class powerlifter and train him on power/hang cleans and practicing full cleans/snatches for 6-12 months? His total will ANNIHILATE the olympic athlete's.

Sorry, doesn't work that way... That is pretty funny that you think a power lifter with a little training would annihilate a Olympic Lifter... Maybe a state record Olympic Lifter, but certainly nothing on the National level, and laughable on the world level.

America is not the place to judge Oly Lifting, because, quite frankly, we suck at it due to low membership. The other nations destroy us over and over. But that isn't really the point.

A Olympic Lifter is more versatile and thus, a better athlete. They may not be the absolutely strongest people in regards to Dead Lifts, or Squats, but they are close, and they have speed and agility.

Meat_Head
01-18-2006, 11:56 AM
I guess it depends on your definition of "better results." If we are talking hypertrophy, sure. If we are talking athletic performance, I disagree.


Definately not talking about hypertrophy here. How would learning and performing the full olympic lifts be superior to what I suggested for anything?



Yes, but not to the same degree as olympic lifts. When I said "at the expense of everything else" that was in reference to an article by Dave Tate who claimed the same thing. Not just strength in unfamiliar movements, but everything. Flexibility, conditioning, etc.


Full olympic lifts require flexibility more than they develop it. I agree it takes more overall athleticism, fitness, and strength to perform heavy olympic lifts, but that doesn't mean those powerlifters aren't ridiculously strong. That strength can in time with practice be transformed into huge olympic lifts, it would just take time and practice.



Unequipped? I doubt it. The olympic lifter would already have comparable squats/deads, so the only thing that might be lacking is bench press.


They would have comparable high bar olympic squats, but in terms of who can move the most weight in a squat a world class powerlifter would be dominant. Same goes for deadlifts... the olympic lifter has great pulling strength, true, but heavy squats and deadlifts are the GOAL of powerlifting. Olympic lifters rarely perform bench presses, there would be a huge difference in strength there like you pointed out.



I think learning to bench would be a lot easier than learning the snatch. Just my opinion, and there's no point in arguing it ... it was a hypothetical situation from the start. Unless either of us start comparing olympic totals with powerlifting totals, it's pointless. And I'm way to lazy to do that. :p

You're right, learning to bench would be alot easier than learning the snatch. The difference is, the powerlifter can already pull huge weights off the floor which will make his snatch(once he's learned it) pretty damn huge. The oly lifter has minimal pressing strength(although obviously enough to support big weights overhead), especially horizontal pressing, and it would take him much longer to develop comparable strength in a bench press.

Look at strongman competitors... these are the biggest and strongest guys obviously trying to get the most out of their training in the gym. What do you thing they are going to spend their time in the weight room doing, full squat snatches? Clean and jerks? More than likely, they'll be doing deadlifts, rows, squats, overhead pressing, bench pressing. If they train olympic lifts in the gym at all, I'd bet they'd be doing power or hang cleans. Actually, if you watch strongman competitions their form on events where you have to clean an implement is pretty terrible, almost no squat to catch the bar as well. Yet they still move the weight because they have the strength to powerclean it. Just going off on a tangent there, but you get the idea.

Anthony
01-18-2006, 12:28 PM
Definately not talking about hypertrophy here. How would learning and performing the full olympic lifts be superior to what I suggested for anything?
Because there's no triple extension during squats/deads/military/bench. Olympic lifts teach the body how to explode.

Here's an exerpt from an article:

"These lifts train athletes to effectively activate more muscle fibers more rapidly than through any other modality of
training. The explosiveness that results from this training is of vital necessity to every sport.

Practicing the Olympic lifts teaches one to apply force to muscle groups in proper sequence, i.e., from the center of the body to its extremities (core to extremity). Learning this vital technical lesson benefits all athletes who need to impart force to another person or object as is commonly required in nearly all sports.

In addition to learning to impart explosive forces, the clean and jerk and snatch condition the body to receive such
forces from another moving body both safely and effectively.

Numerous studies have demonstrated the Olympic lifts unique capacity to develop strength, muscle, power, speed,
coordination, vertical leap, muscular endurance, bone strength, and the physical capacity to withstand stress. It is also worth mentioning that the Olympic lifts are the only lifts shown to increase maximum oxygen uptake, the most important marker for cardiovascular fitness."


I agree it takes more overall athleticism, fitness, and strength to perform heavy olympic lifts, but that doesn't mean those powerlifters aren't ridiculously strong. That strength can in time with practice be transformed into huge olympic lifts, it would just take time and practice.
I agree. Anything can be done with enough time and practise. That's not the point. Take 10 athletes from different sports and have them compete in all sports. The best athlete will score consistently high in all sports. That's why I used an example of weightlifters and powerlifters ... take them as they are NOW and compare. Who is the better athlete? Don't get me wrong, powerlifters are strong as HELL, but strength isn't the only aspect of athleticism.


They would have comparable high bar olympic squats, but in terms of who can move the most weight in a squat a world class powerlifter would be dominant.
Take away the equipment, go to IPF depth, and it would be pretty similar. There are plenty of videos of olympic lifters doing heavy back squats, with a full walkout, for reps, no equipment, and making it look easy. Would they be as strong as a powerlifter in this lift? Probably not, but it will be close.


Same goes for deadlifts... the olympic lifter has great pulling strength, true, but heavy squats and deadlifts are the GOAL of powerlifting.
Again, I'm not saying the olympic lifter would be better at powerlifting than a powerlifter. I'm saying if you had both guys compete in each others sport, the olympic lifter would do better in powerlifting than the powerlifter would do in olympic lifting. Make sense?


You're right, learning to bench would be alot easier than learning the snatch. The difference is, the powerlifter can already pull huge weights off the floor which will make his snatch(once he's learned it) pretty damn huge. The oly lifter has minimal pressing strength(although obviously enough to support big weights overhead), especially horizontal pressing, and it would take him much longer to develop comparable strength in a bench press.
I disagree completely. Training to develop a comparable snatch would take a lot longer than a comparable bench.


Look at strongman competitors... these are the biggest and strongest guys obviously trying to get the most out of their training in the gym.
Most of them train in their specific events. Which is an awesome way to train because it's so varied. :)

ArchAngel777
01-18-2006, 01:22 PM
I have a great respect for Strongman competitions, in fact just as much as I do with Olympic Lifters. It is power lifting that I am not sold on. It isn't as if I think power lifters are not worthy, I do think they are worthy. But, I don't agree with the sport itself. I believe in training full range of motion whenever possible. Power Lifting believes in partial range of motion, one lift that really isn't that important for strength (Bench Press). For instance, I would have more respect if there were no suits, wraps, belts and then in addition to that, replaced the Bench Press with Military Press. The flat bench press is relatively useless for most sports and every day life. Everyone who preachs the bench press to me has yet to give me a reason what it is so important of a lift, or rather, more important than a Military Press.

Just my opinions.

Rex
01-18-2006, 03:29 PM
I have the 2001 Ironmind video "Creating Champions" - it shows the training of Szymon Kolecki and Georgi Asanidze - both men back squat 500+ pounds for doubles and tripples atf completely raw.

Asanidze does a tripple with 140 kg on the bench press (308 pounds) while Kolecki does a double with 180 (396). These are of course unequiped lifts.

Check out the attached photo of Klokov benching and Chigisev spotting - both members of the Russian National Weightlifting team.

Sensei
01-18-2006, 10:29 PM
Geez, the discussion has really gone all over the place...

I never meant this to be a discussion of who was stronger OLers or PLers... This is a meaningless debate - generally, a good PLer is going to mop up the floor with an OLer who decides to enter a PL meet and vice-versa. The reason an OLer has a better chance of doing well in PL is that they squat ALL the time. Strength is a skill. If you don't think so, look at the progression of weights being used for Atlas stones or farmer walk implements in strongman competitions.

I was initiating a discussion of whether the classic OLs or the "power" versions were more suited for athletes of different sports.

Things to think about:

*Assuming a person can both the power and classic versions with proper form, the power versions are generally easier on the CNS and power cleans are harder on the joints.

*Yes, the olympic lifts are harder to learn, but there mistakes common to athletes using the power versions. How many times have you actually seen a power clean or snatch done correctly? Do they heave the weight up using their upper back? Do the catch the bar w. backward lean? Do the elbows droop when racking the weight? To be honest, the only people I see doing them well are people who can do the classic lifts.

*A deadlift + high pull/power clean + overhead/front squat does not equal a classic clean or snatch... They are NOT the same thing.

*Bar speed is greater and the bar is lifted higher in the power versions because the WEIGHT IS LESS.

From "The Weightlifting Encyclopedia":

2. The practice of proper technique in the Olympic lifts teaches an athlete to apply force with his or her muscle groups in the proper sequences (i.e. from the center of the body to its extremities). This is a valuable technical lesson which can be of benefit to any athlete who needs to impart force to another person or object (a necessity in virtually every sport).
3. In mastering the Olympic lifts, the athlete learns how to accelerate objects under varying degrees of resistance. This is because the body experiences differing degrees of perceived resistance as it attempts to move a bar with maximum speed through a full range of motion. These kinds of changes in resistance are much more likely to resemble those encountered in athletic events...
4. The athlete learns to receive force from another moving body effectively and becomes conditioned to accept such forces.
5. The athlete learns to move effectively from an eccentric contraction to a concentric one (through the stretch-shortening cycle, the cycle that is activated and trained through exercises that are often referred to as plyometrics).
6. The actual movements performed while executing the Olympic lifts are among the most common and fundamental in sports... (pp. 513-514)

I never meant to say that the power versions are bad - it just bothers me a bit when I hear people say that they are somehow "better".

Questor
12-22-2006, 04:08 PM
Bump to the front, this is a good thread.

johnnytang24
12-23-2006, 02:22 PM
Geez, the discussion has really gone all over the place...

I never meant this to be a discussion of who was stronger OLers or PLers... This is a meaningless debate

Things to think about:




I agree. The whole OL vs. PL debate is a non sequitur.

As for the original topic, I would argue that the high pull is superior to both the power and full versions for athletic performance.

>> *Assuming a person can both the power and classic versions with proper form, the power versions are generally easier on the CNS and power cleans are harder on the joints.

The high pull doesn't require a catch, so it is easier on the joints, and is at least equally as easy (not harder) on the CNS as either version.

>> *Yes, the olympic lifts are harder to learn, but there mistakes common to athletes using the power versions. How many times have you actually seen a power clean or snatch done correctly? Do they heave the weight up using their upper back? Do the catch the bar w. backward lean? Do the elbows droop when racking the weight? To be honest, the only people I see doing them well are people who can do the classic lifts.

I would think anyone that could teach the full clean could teach a proper high pull (or power clean).

>> *A deadlift + high pull/power clean + overhead/front squat does not equal a classic clean or snatch... They are NOT the same thing.

You're right. It takes much more practice to master the full lifts. Is this necessary for athletes not competing in these lifts, or could the time be better spent on other training?

>> *Bar speed is greater and the bar is lifted higher in the power versions because the WEIGHT IS LESS.

Yup. And the high pull can be used with as little weight as a power version up to (and beyond) the full lift. The best of both worlds!



I never meant to say that the power versions are bad - it just bothers me a bit when I hear people say that they are somehow "better".

Don't get me wrong, I don't think any olympic lift is bad.

Thanks.

Sensei
01-19-2007, 02:36 PM
Since the hang clean vs. power clean thread was closed, I thought it might not be a bad thing to bump this one (it was generally a civil disagreement here).

Sensei
01-19-2007, 02:48 PM
As for the original topic, I would argue that the high pull is superior to both the power and full versions for athletic performance.
The high pull doesn't require a catch, so it is easier on the joints, and is at least equally as easy (not harder) on the CNS as either version.
I hear what you're saying, but getting rid of the catch entirely is removing a huge part of reason you do cleans in the first place. As far as elbow and wrist stress goes, I'm not sure that high pulls are so gentle on the joints.


I would think anyone that could teach the full clean could teach a proper high pull (or power clean).??? I think you missed my point there. The point was that I rarely see power versions performed correctly and that most people that learn the full lifts have no problem performing the power versions well.


You're right. It takes much more practice to master the full lifts. Is this necessary for athletes not competing in these lifts, or could the time be better spent on other training?Well, again, I understand the argument and it's hard to argue that in the long run teaching/learning the full versions will have, ultimately, more athletic benefit, but that's what I believe.


Yup. And the high pull can be used with as little weight as a power version up to (and beyond) the full lift. The best of both worlds!
I agree that high pulls are a great exercise.

Sleepy Guy
01-19-2007, 04:11 PM
I am truly stumped why people are saying don't train the lift cause you don't know it. What better way to learn then by your mistakes. A trainer will only help lessen the curve.

From my experences hang cleans vs full cleans is like partial squats and bellow parallel squats. You will see benefit from both but in different ways.

It took me four times as long to learn full cleans and I often made an ass of myself but I learned it and love it.

And you guys write too much lol. Maybe I am off topic :)

FortifiedIron
01-19-2007, 05:35 PM
Holy crap.. I dont know if I should comment or bow out of this one lol

Kc

CrazyK
01-19-2007, 11:55 PM
Holy crap.. I dont know if I should comment or bow out of this one lol

KcComment! Comment! Comment! :)

FortifiedIron
01-20-2007, 10:13 AM
Comment! Comment! Comment! :)

Ok olympic lifters are on of the freakist athlete's on the planet.

Kc

CrazyK
01-20-2007, 01:57 PM
Ok olympic lifters are on of the freakist athlete's on the planet.

KcAgreed, the elite ones at least.

Stumprrp
01-20-2007, 05:05 PM
Ok olympic lifters are on of the freakist athlete's on the planet.

Kc

i also agree

shane h from the US team is like 5'9 370 lbs, he can dunk a basketball, do a backflip, and i forgot countless other rediculous stunts

Jeff Roark
01-21-2007, 07:34 AM
I can say this, that doin a 225lbs power clean is much easier than going under a 275lb+ full clean. There is no comparison. The stresses of receiving the weight and actually learning to use the rebound effect can really build some explosiveness coming out of the hole. I really first noticed this doing clean from pins in a power rack. I did my clean session and followed them with front squats and I noticed that I was much more explosive out of the hole even after having some fatigue. Thats my take on it. I think both can be useful at certain times, but overall the benefit of the full lifts trump the power clean.

FortifiedIron
01-21-2007, 10:29 AM
I think full cleans have a benefit and are useful. However athlete's can get by with just power cleans. I dont really feel there is a benefit that out weights either or for athletes. However if your talking in terms of Olympic lifters I'd never have them do powercleans.

Many more pro's and con's if your talking about using olympic lifts for athlete's vs. using the traditional DE method et al Westside.

Kc

Jeff Roark
01-21-2007, 11:27 AM
I agree. I am talking of strictly lifting applications. If anything takes away from the practice of a sport to learn and its intensive to boot, it may not be worth the effort. Note though that you do not see many really good power cleans performed.

I think they both have their place and I have done both. Good thread.

FortifiedIron
01-21-2007, 12:55 PM
I agree. I am talking of strictly lifting applications. If anything takes away from the practice of a sport to learn and its intensive to boot, it may not be worth the effort. Note though that you do not see many really good power cleans performed.

I think they both have their place and I have done both. Good thread.

I agree with this, however there is also another point that needs to be addressed if your talking about this for athletes and that is the athlete's training history and work capacity.

When an athlete is new or just progressing into sports in general any form of training is going to help his production on the field. When you get into advanced and intermediate training levels the training has to be different and taken care of differently.

It becomes much more important to program their training correctly to help them.

Kc

Sleepy Guy
01-21-2007, 01:34 PM
I think it's clear that everyone has their own opinion on training.

If you do both you benefit by both. From an athletics view they both complement each other. I just find power cleans easier as the movement is less compounducated.

vrizzle
01-21-2007, 08:18 PM
squat cleans make the world go round

RhodeHouse
01-23-2007, 01:52 PM
A power Clean and Hang Clean are different lifts. Athletes shouldn't worry about great form on whatever type of Olympic lift they perform, unless they are Olympic lifters. They need to worry about being explosive and not necessarliy worry about perfect technique. Hwether it be a full Olympic lift or a partial, the key is to just be explosive.

Joshua Davis
01-26-2007, 06:27 AM
A power Clean and Hang Clean are different lifts. Athletes shouldn't worry about great form on whatever type of Olympic lift they perform, unless they are Olympic lifters. They need to worry about being explosive and not necessarliy worry about perfect technique. Hwether it be a full Olympic lift or a partial, the key is to just be explosive.

Hang cleans can be either. A hang just signifies where you start the lift...

I agree that perfect technique should only be hammered on by people planning to compete in weightlifting... otherwise, athletes should focus on just doing the lift correctly (eyes up, back flat, legs extend before back, pop and shrug), to minimize injury. That being said, there is a reason why technique is there, and it isn't just about effeciency, it's about safety. If you are "swinging" power snatches, you'll damage your shoulder... if you are pulling a powerclean from the floor with a round back, I'd like to be your chiropractor. These are all things I have personally done and now regret what they have done to my body. Just like anything else, it is important to learn the basics of a lift, and not to assume what you are doing is right.

jed
01-26-2007, 07:33 PM
this is kinda off topic, but is there a website with videos and articles about how to learn the proper power clean/squat clean forms? i am 180 lbs and power cleaning 215 and now i'm not sure if i'm doing it right or not. i am a football player but not a pure powerlifter/olympic lifter like your talking about. anything would be helpful, thank you :)

Sensei
01-26-2007, 07:42 PM
http://www.infinityfitness.com/videos/nl/chado2.asf

FortifiedIron
01-26-2007, 08:27 PM
http://www.infinityfitness.com/videos/nl/chado2.asf

GREAT video!

Kc

manofsteel99
01-27-2007, 08:40 AM
i focus on squat and dead lift in my routine but i would love to learn power clean, theres no one to teach me how to do a power clean though so im kinda screwed on that matter.