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drew
01-15-2006, 09:33 AM
10 Tips for fat loss, in simplest terms.
I've found more and more that the average person just has no clue when it comes to proper nutrition or fat loss. Having a background in bodybuilding and powerlifting, I am often approached by friends and family for diet and exercise advice. I'm always glad to share my thoughts and experiences with others. This is just an effort to put together most of what I've learned over the last few years and maybe to help give a jumpstart to anyone who is new to this and wants to drop some fat, but doesn't want to do all the research. For the intermediate or experienced lifter, this should all be review.
I am not a nutrition expert by any means, but have read and applied as much information as I could. These are all things that have worked for me, and primarily used to control my body fat level while increasing my body mass. I have used the following tips to bring my body weight from 165 up to 205 over the last 3 years while keeping my fat level below 13%. I have been as low as 8%, but it no longer suits my personal goals to strive for such a low percentage of body fat. I truly hope these tips will help get you on your way to fast fat loss.
1. Drink plenty of water.
At least a gallon of water should be consumed every day. Water will not only keep your body hydrated, but it will help carry waste out of your body. Avoid "designer" water and carbonated "water". These products, while still better than most beverages, are not water and do not carry the same benefits. "But I don't like water" you say. Learn to love it. It loves you.
2. Eat 5-8 meals per day, every 2-3 hours.
This should be nothing new to anyone. Just in case, the primary reason for increasing the frequency of food consumption is to increase your metabolic rate. If your body is in a constant state of using up the calories you consume, there won't be much room for those nasty fat cells to start filling up. If possible, you should try to count your calorie consumption. 10xyour body weight= calories per day. So if I want to lose weight and I weigh 205lbs then I should shoot for 2050 calories per day. Eat more, not less.
3. If it breathes, eat it.
Your diet should consist of an abundance of fish, poultry, lean cuts of beef, vegetables, fruit, and nuts. Natural food is much friendlier to your digestive system and your body will thank you for it. Try to eat a vegetable with every meal. Even if you don't want to count calories, these meals will provide a rich balance of nutrients and promote fat loss. If you're a vegetarian, please go and try to feed some hummus to a lion. Let me know if he likes it.
4. Breakfast is really the most important meal of the day.
Most people don't eat a good breakfast, if they eat anything at all. This meal is crucial. Remember how your body works better when in a constant metabolic state? Well, you just slept for 8 hours, and you weren't eating anything. Your body is starving and if you don't eat something soon, your metabolism will slow down and begin to store that fat you've worked so hard to get rid of. The best things to eat in the morning when focusing on fat loss are nuts and meat. Try to avoid sugars this early, as your body is highly insulin sensitive after a fast and you don't want to feed the beast when it's most hungry.
5. Eat something before bed.

A popular myth in the diet world is that any meal consumed before bed will turn into fat overnight. This couldn't be further from the truth. You must eat before you sleep in order to keep your metabolism working while you're enduring an extended fast. The best foods to eat are slow-digesting proteins such as yogurt or cottage cheese.

6. High Fructose Corn Syrup is the devil.
This widely popular sweetener is probably the single worst "food" you can subject your body to. It holds no nutritional value and will serve only to spike your insulin levels and help you pack on fat. HFCS is found in most processed foods and should be avoided at all costs.


7. Forget about "carbs"

The recent trend of demonizing carbohydrates has got to stop. They're not as bad as people think. Focus on whole grains and vegetables and fruits. These are all carbohydrate-rich foods, and all very helpful in promoting fat loss. Things to avoid are refined carbs. Basically, anything that's fake: white bread and bagels, refined sugar, most breakfast cereal and almost anything in the "snack" aisle. Also, be careful of packaged, dried fruit. Most of it has added HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP which instantly destroys any nutritional value the fruit may have provided.


8. Fish oil is your friend.

This is a tough one. This one is even tough for me. Fish oil comes in capsules now, so you don't have to taste it going down, but you will taste it throughout the day, and that's not fun. However, with that said, fish oil is a huge help in reducing body fat. And it's relatively inexpensive. Again, this will be a tough one to swallow (pun intended), but if you really want to get that six-pack, it will sure help.

9. Train your body with weights.

This should be obvious, but for some reason, it's overlooked. The average person feels that cardio alone will help promote fat loss. In fact, steady state cardiovascular work will put your body in a catabolic state, burn muscle as well as fat, and will increase your performance at running on a treadmill, or using a recumbent bike or elliptical machine, depending on what you're doing. By training your body with weights, you will increase your muscle density. Muscle tissue will burn calories at a rate that is roughly 70 times that of fat. Basically, the more muscle you have, the easier it will be to lose fat. Now, especially for the women, increasing muscle density is not the same as increasing muscle size. You will not look like "those women" on ESPN with all the rippling muscles. These women work very hard to look like that, and you will never look like them unless you absolutely want to, and train to that end. Bottom line, weight training is key to fat loss.

10. Don't follow the rules 100% of the time.

How will you ever make progress if you're miserable with your diet? If you love to drink blue slurpees and eat snickers bars, then don't eliminate them completely from your diet. Taking a break from time to time is actually a good thing. This doesn't give you license to start eating everything in sight or to order the 5-5-5 from Dominoes for yourself, but one day per week you can go a little nuts, just keep it under control. This serves two purposes. One, the diet will be easier to stick to when you can keep eating the foods you really enjoy from time to time. Two, your metabolism will get a nice kick-start and begin working overtime to move all those sugars and calories around that it isn't used to.


I'm absolutely certain I missed something here, but I think this is a good start far anyone who is unsure how to promote fat loss in their own body. Again, this is for beginners. The intermediate or advanced athlete should already know all of this. I tried to keep it as simple as possible, as I know how easy it is to quit just because it's too hard to understand. Good luck on your fat loss and don't give up.

Optimum08
01-15-2006, 09:50 AM
drew...very nice article man...im gonna say it needs to be stickied...

the doc
01-15-2006, 09:52 AM
some of the reasoning is not entirely correct but in general these are all good tips

One thing about eating before bed, not a good idea for your esophagus

a small meal at least 1, but preferably 2 hours before bed would be OK

drew
01-15-2006, 09:54 AM
Like I said, it's not perfect and I'm not an expert. It's just what I've learned.

WBBIRL
01-15-2006, 10:02 AM
Alot of that I knew, some of it I didnt. Very informant... sticky

getfit
01-15-2006, 10:04 AM
some good tips Drew

ShockBoxer
01-15-2006, 10:15 AM
some of the reasoning is not entirely correct but in general these are all good tips

One thing about eating before bed, not a good idea for your esophagus

a small meal at least 1, but preferably 2 hours before bed would be OK

What the Doc said.

I've been finding (since I have a pre-existing gastro-intestinal problem) that if I eat something anything solid before bed I either wake up with heartburn or stomach cramps. I now try and give myself an hour or two between last snack of the day and bed.

<-- is guilty of chowing down on hfcs far too often.

HILL
01-15-2006, 10:37 AM
I definatly think that should be stickied and every one who joins should be made to read it as it answers simple questions that are asked several times a week. the only thing to add in my opinion would be the below as ive staed before this is also asked many many times a weeks.

Protein should be at 1-1.5g of protein per pound of lean bods mass.
Healthy fat should be 0.5g per lean pound of body mass as a minimum
the rest of your cals can be made up of a mix of protein/carbs/fats

drew
01-15-2006, 10:39 AM
Protein should be at 1-1.5g of protein per pound of lean bods mass.
Healthy fat should be 0.5g per lean pound of body mass as a minimum
the rest of your cals can be made up of a mix of protein/carbs/fats
I tried to keep it as simple as possible, figuring that if you were to follow the 10 tips, these things would pretty much fall into place.

D Breyer
01-15-2006, 11:10 AM
sticky!

good article drew

Hoominaga
01-15-2006, 11:58 AM
Good tips, thanks.

Scottyboy
01-15-2006, 12:30 PM
Great advice.

Built
01-15-2006, 12:44 PM
As someone who has successfully lost and kept off a lot of fat, I'd like to add a few edits into this well-intentioned post:


10 Tips for fat loss, in simplest terms.
I've found more and more that the average person just has no clue when it comes to proper nutrition or fat loss. Having a background in bodybuilding and powerlifting, I am often approached by friends and family for diet and exercise advice. I'm always glad to share my thoughts and experiences with others. This is just an effort to put together most of what I've learned over the last few years and maybe to help give a jumpstart to anyone who is new to this and wants to drop some fat, but doesn't want to do all the research. For the intermediate or experienced lifter, this should all be review.
I am not a nutrition expert by any means, but have read and applied as much information as I could. These are all things that have worked for me, and primarily used to control my body fat level while increasing my body mass. I have used the following tips to bring my body weight from 165 up to 205 over the last 3 years while keeping my fat level below 13%. I have been as low as 8%, but it no longer suits my personal goals to strive for such a low percentage of body fat. I truly hope these tips will help get you on your way to fast fat loss.
1. Drink plenty of water.
At least a gallon of water should be consumed every day. Water will not only keep your body hydrated, but it will help carry waste out of your body. Avoid "designer" water and carbonated "water". These products, while still better than most beverages, are not water and do not carry the same benefits. "But I don't like water" you say. Learn to love it. It loves you.
This one is fine



2. Eat 5-8 meals per day, every 2-3 hours.
This should be nothing new to anyone. Just in case, the primary reason for increasing the frequency of food consumption is to increase your metabolic rate.
This is not true. It has been refuted many times. And on lower calories, many people are more comfortable with fewer, larger meals than more, smaller meals, particularly women, because our maintenance calories are so much lower than they are for men.



If your body is in a constant state of using up the calories you consume, there won't be much room for those nasty fat cells to start filling up. If possible, you should try to count your calorie consumption. 10xyour body weight= calories per day. So if I want to lose weight and I weigh 205lbs then I should shoot for 2050 calories per day. Eat more, not less.
Also misleading. If this was the case for me, I'd have to diet on 1400 calories a day. In reality, I drop on anything under 2000. The only way to really know is to track YOUR calories for a week or so, find YOUR maintenance calories, and drop them by no more than 20%. Readjust as your weight drops and you stall.



3. If it breathes, eat it.
Your diet should consist of an abundance of fish, poultry, lean cuts of beef, vegetables, fruit, and nuts. Natural food is much friendlier to your digestive system and your body will thank you for it. Try to eat a vegetable with every meal. Even if you don't want to count calories, these meals will provide a rich balance of nutrients and promote fat loss.

They won't promote fat loss - that comes from lowering calories and heavy lifting. But they are nutrient dense, and that's significant on a diet.


If you're a vegetarian, please go and try to feed some hummus to a lion. Let me know if he likes it.
4. Breakfast is really the most important meal of the day.
Most people don't eat a good breakfast, if they eat anything at all. This meal is crucial. Remember how your body works better when in a constant metabolic state? Well, you just slept for 8 hours, and you weren't eating anything. Your body is starving and if you don't eat something soon, your metabolism will slow down and begin to store that fat you've worked so hard to get rid of. The best things to eat in the morning when focusing on fat loss are nuts and meat. Try to avoid sugars this early, as your body is highly insulin sensitive after a fast and you don't want to feed the beast when it's most hungry.

While I am a breakfast eater, and I agree with you on the "no sugar in the AM" philosophy, it's for comfort. Some people have natural anorexia in the AM - on a diet, you might as well take advantage of the times when you're not hugely hungry - save the calories for when you NEED them.



5. Eat something before bed.

A popular myth in the diet world is that any meal consumed before bed will turn into fat overnight. This couldn't be further from the truth. You must eat before you sleep in order to keep your metabolism working while you're enduring an extended fast. The best foods to eat are slow-digesting proteins such as yogurt or cottage cheese.
Absolutely.



6. High Fructose Corn Syrup is the devil.
This widely popular sweetener is probably the single worst "food" you can subject your body to. It holds no nutritional value and will serve only to spike your insulin levels and help you pack on fat. HFCS is found in most processed foods and should be avoided at all costs.
Not necessarily as bad as all that, but certainly empty calories. Interestingly, orange juice and coca cola show virtually identical sugar profiles. Juice is just as bad as pop on a diet.



7. Forget about "carbs"

The recent trend of demonizing carbohydrates has got to stop. They're not as bad as people think. Focus on whole grains and vegetables and fruits. These are all carbohydrate-rich foods, and all very helpful in promoting fat loss. Things to avoid are refined carbs. Basically, anything that's fake: white bread and bagels, refined sugar, most breakfast cereal and almost anything in the "snack" aisle. Also, be careful of packaged, dried fruit. Most of it has added HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP which instantly destroys any nutritional value the fruit may have provided.
Again, not true on the HFCS front - it does not cancel out nutrients.

And while carbs are not the devil - they DO make you hungry. They're necessary, however, for various ergogenic requirements - bottom line, eat 'em when you need 'em, avoid 'em the rest of the time and rely on protein and fat for satiety.

My .02 (CAD)




8. Fish oil is your friend.

This is a tough one. This one is even tough for me. Fish oil comes in capsules now, so you don't have to taste it going down, but you will taste it throughout the day, and that's not fun. However, with that said, fish oil is a huge help in reducing body fat. And it's relatively inexpensive. Again, this will be a tough one to swallow (pun intended), but if you really want to get that six-pack, it will sure help.
Excellent for partitioning, satiety, endocrine support ... couldn't agree more.




9. Train your body with weights.

This should be obvious, but for some reason, it's overlooked. The average person feels that cardio alone will help promote fat loss. In fact, steady state cardiovascular work will put your body in a catabolic state, burn muscle as well as fat, and will increase your performance at running on a treadmill, or using a recumbent bike or elliptical machine, depending on what you're doing. By training your body with weights, you will increase your muscle density. Muscle tissue will burn calories at a rate that is roughly 70 times that of fat.
No.

Adipose 4.5 kcal/kg/day
Muscle 13 kcal/kg/day

Paper is "Dissecting the Energy Needs of the Body"

Authors are Steven A. McClave and Harvy L. Snider




Basically, the more muscle you have, the easier it will be to lose fat. Now, especially for the women, increasing muscle density is not the same as increasing muscle size. You will not look like "those women" on ESPN with all the rippling muscles. These women work very hard to look like that, and you will never look like them unless you absolutely want to, and train to that end.
and take AAS.


Bottom line, weight training is key to fat loss.

10. Don't follow the rules 100% of the time.

How will you ever make progress if you're miserable with your diet? If you love to drink blue slurpees and eat snickers bars, then don't eliminate them completely from your diet. Taking a break from time to time is actually a good thing. This doesn't give you license to start eating everything in sight or to order the 5-5-5 from Dominoes for yourself, but one day per week you can go a little nuts, just keep it under control. This serves two purposes. One, the diet will be easier to stick to when you can keep eating the foods you really enjoy from time to time. Two, your metabolism will get a nice kick-start and begin working overtime to move all those sugars and calories around that it isn't used to.


I'm absolutely certain I missed something here, but I think this is a good start far anyone who is unsure how to promote fat loss in their own body. Again, this is for beginners. The intermediate or advanced athlete should already know all of this. I tried to keep it as simple as possible, as I know how easy it is to quit just because it's too hard to understand. Good luck on your fat loss and don't give up.

Simple is good if it's sufficient and correct.

This had some good points though.

drew
01-15-2006, 01:01 PM
Built, I always defer to your knowledge. Thanks for the clarification. Again, this is just what I've learned, and there's always more to learn.

D Breyer
01-15-2006, 02:56 PM
built- Just curious... what would your top 10 tips for fat loss be?

Musclebate
01-15-2006, 05:50 PM
Excellent Article dude

Built
01-15-2006, 06:47 PM
Drew,

np - it was a good start. You might consider editing the original post.

Cap'n crunch - that's a good question.

Dunno about 10, but I'd include:

Drop cals by no lower than 20% below maintenance, unless you're doing PSMF or something similar

Keep protein at no lower than 1g/lb LBM, and fats at no lower than 0.5g/lb LBM

Figure out what foods make you feel satisfied, and what foods make you feel hungry.

Eat protein at every meal

Figure out when you're hungriest, and save calories from when you're the least hungry so you can manage your hunger effectively

Lift heavy while you lower your calories - rely on diet to drop WEIGHT, and on heavy lifting to force your body to drop fat instead of muscle. Light weights with high reps will do the opposite.

ArchAngel777
01-16-2006, 04:38 PM
Built,

It seems to have some of the best knowledge on this site. I had a few questions in regards to some things you advise and am curious if you can link to research, or rather provide me with the means to find it.

1) How often to eat? - You had mentioned it doesn't matter when you eat or how often, so long as the total calories are the same? Is this true and do you believe it? If so, could you provide some links. I would rejoice if this were true (and it might be) because I would not have the burden of eating all the darn time.

2) 20% Below Maintenance... Any reason for this? I have heard people suggest that going below will put your body in "starvation mode". However, logically that sort of makes sense, but not in reality. For instance, why would you body neednessly burn extra energy? That does not seem to fit in with the great ability of our bodys to store fat... Instead of burning calories, it would seem that it would resort to storing them and remain effecient. Do you know what I am getting at? So, if the body's metabolism slows down with the ammount we eat, then 1) the body isn't that smart after all and needlessly wastes energy, which doesn't line up with how efficient it is at storing body fat. 2) it would have to slow down organs and such things, the result would be getting sick...

I guess what I am saying is that there are so many angles one could go with their believes with RDA's for calorie requirements. Some people say 2,000 is plenty and I can attest to that as far as being satisfied, but many others claim 3,000... But whatever the case, if ones metabolism slows down with the ammount of food we eat, then the difference between 2,000 or 3,000 could be absolutely nothing. Thus, if someone is satisfied at 2,000 calories, completely. Then 3,000, even if not gaining weight would not make sense, for the person would be stuffed and lethargic. Again, just another possible view point.

Hopefully both of these make sense and you can understand the angle I am coming from. Just curious to know your perspective and hopefully you can point to some great research on that.

Thanks,

Gabriel

WBBIRL
01-16-2006, 05:19 PM
People vary so much though, as a 300lbs much bigger guy my calorie ranges are very close to builts. She cuts at 2000 while I would nearly maintain at that range. So her metabolism is slighty higher then mine.

Maki Riddington
01-16-2006, 05:33 PM
While I am a breakfast eater, and I agree with you on the "no sugar in the AM" philosophy, it's for comfort. Some people have natural anorexia in the AM - on a diet, you might as well take advantage of the times when you're not hugely hungry - save the calories for when you NEED them.




When you need them may not be the best time to take them. That's why losing body fat requires a certain amount of self discipline. The body responds in a certain manner to various nutrients at particular times of the day as well as when we exercise.

Use your calories for when the body will best use them, not when you need them.

Then again, you haven't defined the word "need" and the context you are using it in. So I could be agreeing with you. Heh.

Built
01-16-2006, 05:54 PM
In the end, if eating in the AM is uncomfortable and your workouts are in the evening anyway, you might as well take advantage of the timing and eat more food later in the day.

Now if you train in the AM, then you're gonna need food at that time. Unless it's fasted SS AM cardio we're talking here, workouts need fuel.

With all due respect, Maki, I don't think you've ever been significantly overweight, correct? I've been overweight and have had to deal with metabolic conditions that pushed my appetite out of control. Ultimately, if you can NOT control your hunger, you won't be able to stick to a plan.

If you need to do something that may be slightly sub-optimal but that allows you to stick to your programme, you have to look at the greater good.

For me, it's a moot point - I eat as soon as I wake up. Always have. But I've heard many people tell me that the are NOT hungry in the AM, and they ARE later in the day. If you're getting in your allotted calories, in the end, WHEN during the day you get them in isn't going to matter nearly as much as the fact that you're not over (or under) eating.

My 0.2

Built
01-16-2006, 06:01 PM
Built,

It seems to have some of the best knowledge on this site. I had a few questions in regards to some things you advise and am curious if you can link to research, or rather provide me with the means to find it.

1) How often to eat? - You had mentioned it doesn't matter when you eat or how often, so long as the total calories are the same? Is this true and do you believe it? If so, could you provide some links. I would rejoice if this were true (and it might be) because I would not have the burden of eating all the darn time.

I usually eat 6-7 meals a day, but that's comfortable for me. On a cut, on my lowest calorie days, this may be 4-5 times a day so I can have a little more food in each meal. It's probably mostly psychological, but whatever works.




2) 20% Below Maintenance... Any reason for this?
It's often bantered about - I would actually like to know where it comes from - fair enough to ask. It has been my understanding that male BB have long been advised to drop cals by 500 to lose a pound a week.

If your maint cals are 2500 a day, this represents a 20% reduction. If your maint cals are 1500 a day, well, dropping by a third is a VERY steep drop. Your body will understand what's happening - you're surviving a famine. It will start shedding muscle because muscle is more metabolically costly than fat - at least that's how I understand it. Slows the calorie drain, so you're likely to survive longer into the famine.



I have heard people suggest that going below will put your body in "starvation mode". However, logically that sort of makes sense, but not in reality. For instance, why would you body neednessly burn extra energy? That does not seem to fit in with the great ability of our bodys to store fat... Instead of burning calories, it would seem that it would resort to storing them and remain effecient. Do you know what I am getting at? So, if the body's metabolism slows down with the ammount we eat, then 1) the body isn't that smart after all and needlessly wastes energy, which doesn't line up with how efficient it is at storing body fat. 2) it would have to slow down organs and such things, the result would be getting sick...

I don't understand what the question is.




I guess what I am saying is that there are so many angles one could go with their believes with RDA's for calorie requirements. Some people say 2,000 is plenty and I can attest to that as far as being satisfied, but many others claim 3,000... But whatever the case, if ones metabolism slows down with the ammount of food we eat, then the difference between 2,000 or 3,000 could be absolutely nothing. Thus, if someone is satisfied at 2,000 calories, completely. Then 3,000, even if not gaining weight would not make sense, for the person would be stuffed and lethargic. Again, just another possible view point.

Hopefully both of these make sense and you can understand the angle I am coming from. Just curious to know your perspective and hopefully you can point to some great research on that.

Thanks,

Gabriel

What is your question? I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying 2000 and 3000 FOR EVERYBODY, or just you?

brickt.
01-16-2006, 07:29 PM
I agree 100% with Built that appetite control is the key to any diet. If you are cutting calories to lose weight, and are sufficiently satisfied throughout the day, things go smoothly, and the only negatives are possible craptastic strength/workouts.

ryuage
01-16-2006, 08:19 PM
is anyone really satisifed while cutting?? except for someone like bcc who cuts on 5000 calories.... deal with the hunger or just take a few drugs to curb it :)

Built
01-16-2006, 08:21 PM
I managed to do no worse than "peckish" last summer, and I got down to 14%. I figure I'll have to suck it up a bit harder to get down to 10%, but I was pretty comfortable.

And my appetite is legendary.

ryuage
01-16-2006, 08:35 PM
not as legendary as mine

Built
01-16-2006, 08:36 PM
Hunger sucks.

Maki Riddington
01-16-2006, 09:08 PM
In the end, if eating in the AM is uncomfortable and your workouts are in the evening anyway, you might as well take advantage of the timing and eat more food later in the day.

You could but you're overlooking the fact that eating in the morning can help deal with cravings in the evening time and that the body is receptive to carbs in the AM.

The bottom line is that if you can't stomach breakfast you still should not skip it. Eat some carbs and protein and keep the fat to a minimum.




With all due respect, Maki, I don't think you've ever been significantly overweight, correct? I've been overweight and have had to deal with metabolic conditions that pushed my appetite out of control. Ultimately, if you can NOT control your hunger, you won't be able to stick to a plan.

Then for you this may be the solution, but you can't correct someone based on your experience with yourself.




But I've heard many people tell me that the are NOT hungry in the AM, and they ARE later in the day. If you're getting in your allotted calories, in the end, WHEN during the day you get them in isn't going to matter nearly as much as the fact that you're not over (or under) eating.

It's not always about calories at the end of the day. If you're dealing with someone who has problems with glucose intolerance then meal timing will make a difference. You can not ignore the fact that some body's partition food better then others.

Built
01-16-2006, 09:21 PM
You could but you're overlooking the fact that eating in the morning can help deal with cravings in the evening time and that the body is receptive to carbs in the AM.

I'm sorry, but I know too many people for whom this is simply NOT TRUE. If I ate ANY carbohydrate in the AM, I could seriously not stop eating ALL DAY unless I trained right after.

AM for me is strictly protein and fat.




The bottom line is that if you can't stomach breakfast you still should not skip it. Eat some carbs and protein and keep the fat to a minimum.


Again, um, no way.



Then for you this may be the solution, but you can't correct someone based on your experience with yourself.


How about an entire online community? I mod a board FULL of folks like me.


It's not always about calories at the end of the day.

But it mostly is. The rest are small players. Important, but not more important than appetite control.


If you're dealing with someone who has problems with glucose intolerance then meal timing will make a difference.

Bingo. And these are often the folks who have the highest rates of obesity.

Bottom line - figure out what you're eating for the day, then neither under nor overeat.

Kiaran
01-16-2006, 09:52 PM
Built, what is the web site that you moderate? I'd like to take a look at it.

Built
01-16-2006, 09:58 PM
Check your PMs.

:)

brickt.
01-17-2006, 05:58 AM
Could I possibly get that PM also, B? Entirely at your disgression, of course.

BigOldDad
01-17-2006, 07:16 AM
Excellent thread! Great information, some good debate and Built can I get the PM also. I was wondering what site you were moderating and always meant to ask.

I have an additional question. When you use the term meal as in 5 meals per day. Is there a minimum requirement that makes it a meal vs say a snack. I usually eat a good breakfast and eat small portions throughout the day. Sometimes 1-2 hours apart. Is this OK?

Bob
01-17-2006, 07:21 AM
Sign me up Built please..

Holto
01-17-2006, 08:02 AM
Re: The myth that frequent meals increase metabolic rate.

This thread includes some really good clincial studies that show this to be false.

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=66713&highlight=meal+frequency

BigOldDad
01-17-2006, 08:12 AM
If I eat a good breakfast and space light(smart food) snacks/meals out throughout my day and do not exceed my caloric intake and yet meet my minimal requirements on fats/carbs/proteins will my diet still have the same impact as if I were eating three good squares to meet the same goals? JUst wanted to ask.

Holto
01-17-2006, 08:44 AM
If I eat a good breakfast and space light(smart food) snacks/meals out throughout my day and do not exceed my caloric intake and yet meet my minimal requirements on fats/carbs/proteins will my diet still have the same impact as if I were eating three good squares to meet the same goals? JUst wanted to ask.

If the calories are equal the results will be equal.

Cut150
01-17-2006, 09:53 AM
PM please. Thanks in advance.

Maki Riddington
01-17-2006, 02:11 PM
I'm sorry, but I know too many people for whom this is simply NOT TRUE. If I ate ANY carbohydrate in the AM, I could seriously not stop eating ALL DAY unless I trained right after.

AM for me is strictly protein and fat.

More power to you. If that is how you do things great. I'm talking about the bio-availability of nutrients at various times of the day and how it can effect the body.

Your personal experience can not refute this.




Again, um, no way.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9716432&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/134/1/104

Full Study

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/1/104






How about an entire online community? I mod a board FULL of folks like me.

Built, I don't play the "you're right I'm wrong game" anymore. You're using yourself and people's personal experiences to make a point while I am simply saying that there are other approaches that are just as effective. You seem be black and white on a lot of subjects. It's ok to be grey.



But it mostly is. The rest are small players. Important, but not more important than appetite control.

I'll quote myself again.

"If you're dealing with someone who has problems with glucose intolerance then meal timing will make a difference. You can not ignore the fact that some body's partition food better then others."

Obviously calories are important but sometimes it's other things that are the deciding factor in seeing the results you want.



Bingo. And these are often the folks who have the highest rates of obesity.

In my experience it's not. It has to do more with their metabolism and eating habits.


Bottom line - figure out what you're eating for the day, then neither under nor overeat.

You could, or you could simply choose the right foods and eat them. Beyond that changes will have to be made down the road as the body responds.

Manveet
01-17-2006, 02:32 PM
Manveet's number one tip for losing weight:

Eat less calories.

Maki Riddington
01-17-2006, 02:35 PM
Duh.:)

Unreal
01-17-2006, 02:50 PM
I find that 3 larger meals is normally easier for me to meet my caloric goals while on strict cutting then 5+ smaller meals.

ryuage
01-17-2006, 03:21 PM
its 2 rules

eat less
move more

Maki Riddington
01-17-2006, 03:38 PM
For the people on this board who have a handle on nutrition I'd say yes this will work. For the general population..... good luck.

It's not that simple, well it is but for some reason it doesn't seem to pan out this way.

Built
01-17-2006, 06:31 PM
Maki

You and I can both post up studies that refute each other's claims. In the end, though, if you can control your appetite while reducing calories, you're going to succeed. If you cannot, you will ultimately fail.

I don't think there's too much disagreement between us in this regard.

The rest comes down to the constrained optimization problem of working in as many metabolism-boosting strategies as one comfortably can.

I don't disagree with your referenced approaches being optimal - just that they may not always be practicable. If you burn more calories than you expend you will lose weight. If you do this while somehow hanging onto muscle, you'll lose fat.

That part is the same for everybody.

Built
01-17-2006, 06:59 PM
The effects of two methods of inducing an acute energy deficit (exercise and a low-energy breakfast) on appetite were investigated in 11 healthy females, all of whom were regular exercisers and regular breakfast eaters. There were four experimental days: with exercise and a high-energy (500 kcal) breakfast (EHB), exercise and a low-energy (64 kcal) breakfast (ELB), no exercise and a high-energy breakfast (NEHB) and no exercise and a low-energy breakfast (NELB). Hunger and moods were monitored each hour from 8 a. m. until 5 p.m. Energy and macronutrient intake were measured during an ad libitum lunch test meal 4 h after the exercise and breakfast. Heart rate was continuously monitored using the Polar sport tester. The low-energy breakfasts (ELB and NELB) led to increased hunger during the morning and an increase in energy intake at lunch compared with the high-energy breakfasts. Subjects also experienced significantly more food cravings after LBs than after HBs. Exercise failed to have any significant effect on these variables. Thus, two methods of inducing a short-term energy deficit had markedly different effects on appetite. The low-energy breakfast presumably fails to generate the inhibitory satiety signals induced by the 500 kcal breakfast, whereas the metabolic effects of an exercise session failed to generate excitatory signals to hunger and food intake. Copyright 1998 Academic Press.

PMID: 9716432 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

This one found that for people on uncontrolled-calorie diets who ate breakfast regularly, NOT eating a substantial breakfast made them hungrier - so they overate at lunch. (What a surprise!)

Still not a problem if they don't overeat for the day. And it didn't consider people who do not regularly eat breakfast.


jdecastr@utep.edu[/email]. ]

Circadian and diurnal rhythms affect food intake, and earlier research has suggested that meal sizes increase, whereas the after-meal intervals and satiety ratios decrease over the day. We hypothesized that the time of day of food intake would be related to total intake such that intake early in the day would tend to reduce overall intake, whereas intake later in the day would tend to increase intake over the entire day. The intakes of 375 male and 492 female free-living individuals, previously obtained via 7-d diet diaries, were reanalyzed. The total and meal intakes of food energy, the amounts of the macronutrients ingested and the density of intake occurring during five 4-h periods (06000959, 10001359, 14001759, 18002159 and 22000159 h) were identified and related to overall and meal intakes during the entire day. The proportion of intake in the morning was negatively correlated with overall intake (r = -0.13, P < 0.01), whereas the proportion ingested late in the evening was positively correlated with overall intake (r = 0.14, P < 0.01). The energy densities of intake during all periods of the day were positively related to overall intake (range, r = 0.130.23, P < 0.01). The results suggest that low energy density intake during any portion of the day can reduce overall intake, that intake in the morning is particularly satiating and can reduce the total amount ingested for the day, and that intake in the late night lacks satiating value and can result in greater overall daily intake.

This one found that people on uncontrolled-calorie diets who ate less in the AM ate more in the evening.

It didn't consider athletes who train in the evening.

Many of us here do.

Stupid day jobs <mutter, mutter>

I searched the full article. There is no mention of exercise at all, and it excluded anyone who was actively dieting.

While these may be interesting observations regarding free-eating populations, they may lack relevance to this particular group here on WBB. Bodybuilders on a cut are just a LITTLE more anal about their diets than lay people who don't deliberately restrict calories.

Interesting articles.

Maki Riddington
01-17-2006, 08:02 PM
To keep this discussion on the right path it would be nice if you addressed each of my counter points in my above post so we don't get off track.

You have only commented on the studies I have posted. I posted some evidence to support my stance that a solid breakfast does the body good. I will never be able to find the perfect study, so we have to make do with the ones that have been conducted and are somewhat applicable. From there we test what we have taken away from the study and see if it there is indeed some truth to the studies.

I would encourage you to post evidence that says otherwise.

It seems that your posts come off as being, "it's this way or else you are not going about it in the proper fashion." I strongly disagree with this line of thinking and feel it is somewhat of a close minded approach to training and nutrition.

I am completely aware that fat loss comes down to calories in vs calories out. However, it how you approach/apply this concept that is also important. For example, if you had three individuals eat all their calories for the day in one sitting at different times (9am, 3pm, 9pm) and then lowered their calories, do you think that it would get them to their goal as effectively as if they looked at the macronutrient profile of each meal, calorie content and the times of day they ate at?

Built
01-17-2006, 08:11 PM
To keep this discussion on the right path it would be nice if you addressed each of my counter points in my above post so we don't get off track.

You have only commented on the studies I have posted. I posted some evidence to support my stance that a solid breakfast does the body good. I will never be able to find the perfect study, so we have to make do with the ones that have been conducted and are somewhat applicable. From there we test what we have taken away from the study and see if it there is indeed some truth to the studies.

I would encourage you to post evidence that says otherwise.

It seems that your posts come off as being, "it's this way or else you are not going about it in the proper fashion." I strongly disagree with this line of thinking and feel it is somewhat of a close minded approach to training and nutrition.

For the record, I'm a staunch breakfast eater! And I don't think I suggested anything but the observation that while from a physiology-based perspective, one strategy may be optimal over another, it only works if you can tolerate it.

Broccoli is only good for you if you actually EAT it! :)



I am completely aware that fat loss comes down to calories in vs calories out. However, it how you approach/apply this concept that is also important. For example, if you had three individuals eat all their calories for the day in one sitting at different times (9am, 3pm, 9pm) and then lowered their calories, do you think that it would get them to their goal as effectively as if they looked at the macronutrient profile of each meal, calorie content and the times of day they ate at?

I'm saying the difference (if there is any) would not be worth discomfort if this is what it caused. If you could lock up your subjects and force them to comply, you may find a small advantage. But I'd be surprised if it was much more than that. I'd be more than happy to discover I'm wrong here - I eat pretty clean most of the time. It would give me one more reason to do so.

Does this make better sense?

Maki Riddington
01-17-2006, 08:15 PM
ONE BIG EDIT.

ryuage
01-17-2006, 08:16 PM
:lurk:

Built
01-17-2006, 08:18 PM
I didn't say "practical", I said "practicable".

I know at least one woman who is not naturally hungry in the AM, and she's a powerlifter. She relies on AM anorexia for calorie control, so she has available calories for after she trains, when she's hungry.

I don't need to eat very much during the daytime, but I'm FAMISHED at night. So I save daytime calories so I have extra to eat at bedtime.

It's how I was able to successfully diet down for the first time last summer.

Like I said, constrained optimization. :)

Built
01-17-2006, 08:19 PM
Ah. I replied too soon.

Maki Riddington
01-17-2006, 08:22 PM
For the record, I'm a staunch breakfast eater! And I don't think I suggested anything but the observation that while from a physiology-based perspective, one strategy may be optimal over another, it only works if you can tolerate it.

That is where I misunderstood you. However just because you can't tolerate something does not mean you shouldn't do it. That is why so many people fail when it comes implementing proper nutrition strategies. They always feel that there is a something easier out there. Sometimes you have to tolerate a bit of discomfort to see a result.





If you could lock up your subjects and force them to comply, you may find a small advantage. But I'd be surprised if it was much more than that.

Why do you feel that there would only be a "small" advantage if any between the two scenarios outlined?

Maki Riddington
01-17-2006, 08:26 PM
I know at least one woman who is not naturally hungry in the AM, and she's a powerlifter. She relies on AM anorexia for calorie control, so she has available calories for after she trains, when she's hungry.

I don't need to eat very much during the daytime, but I'm FAMISHED at night. So I save daytime calories so I have extra to eat at bedtime.

Built, we are looking at this from two diffrent points of view which is interesting. I look at it from my clients perspective and my experience in dealing with people who want to make changes to their body composition. While you are observing others and what they do and using your experiences to make a connection.

I suppose that is maybe why we are drawing this out into such a long discussion.

Built
01-17-2006, 08:35 PM
That is where I misunderstood you. However just because you can't tolerate something does not mean you shouldn't do it. That is why so many people fail when it comes implementing proper nutrition strategies. They always feel that there is a something easier out there. Sometimes you have to tolerate a bit of discomfort to see a result.

Thank you for your reply - and I agree, a small amount of discomfort is inevitable. But "peckish" isn't the same as "I wanna chew my freaking ARM off". There are DEGREES of discomfort.

I'm all for minimizing them.

So ... no carbs for me in the daytime. Muscle catabolism be damned. In my case, it just ain't worth it.




Why do you feel that there would only be a "small" advantage if any between the two scenarios outlined?

Well, this part is tricky.

While Berardi claims that fat and carb shouldn't be combined in any appreciable amount in a single meal because insulin, being the storage hormone that it is, will shove everything into your cells (muscle, fat, whatever).

McDonald does not espouse this view - he does, however, indicate that partitioning may be optimized by taking advantage of the lowered insulin sensitivity brought on by lower carb consumption until the "anabolic window" from lifting, where insulin sensitivity preferentially allows for partitioning toward muscle tissue. So bring on the insulin!

Different reasons, but the approach is the same: protein and fat for all meals outside the window; protein and carbs for those inside the window. (unless I've read all this stuff wrong. Please somebody correct me if I have).

I believe , based on my readings and personal experience, that this is the case, but for me, the bigger deal is comfort - it's simply an easier way to control my LEGENDARY appetite. I simply do NOT have an off-switch.

If there is, in fact, a significant advantage to eating this way (from a partioning perspective), I'm thrilled. But it's a perk of a more comfortable way of controlling calories, for me at least.

If there was a strategy that was "better" from a partioniong perspective, I wouldn't follow it because this one works, and it's practicable for me because it's comfortable.

If I can't stick to it, it won't work.

Yanno? ;)

OrientalNDN
01-17-2006, 10:49 PM
wow...still so much to learn, its been great reading all this stuff...still newbie here...lol
but i too, am not super hungery in the morning...but i prefer to work out at that time, so i down some food. the protien waffles are a wonder. Yes, if only they cooked properly, i wouldn't have flat pancakes. But if i leave the house and dont eat...that is a sure sign for blood sugar levels droppin for me, and it's dangerous if not lame to work out in that state..

Silverback
01-18-2006, 05:56 AM
I usually find that if i get my carbs in my first meal when cutting the rest of the day on fats is easy. Lots of water, light cardio @ around 8pm and my appetite is easily controlled (and im a BIG eater usually!)

This time round im not using ECA or Clen and its so much easier, with ECA i found that unless i was doing 80+mg's a day my appetite would get out of control.

Calories matter, but where they are coming from matters a hell of alot in regards to retaining muscle tissue.

ArchAngel777
01-18-2006, 11:22 AM
I read all of you having trouble with carlorie control and I have to ask myself, is there something wrong with me?

Every since I moved away from calorie containing beverages and went to a high protien diet, I am never hungry. For instance, I eat about 2,100 calories a day, give or take 200 - 300, certainly, for a man of my size, this is near starvation? But, it isn't for me.

Appitite control for me is avoiding foods which cause me to lose self control. Those foods are, refined sugar, donuts, pastries, chips, and the like, all displacement foods for the most part and are very calorie dense. Well, so before my my change of habits, I would easily ingest over 4,000 calories a day and I would STILL be hungry. So, I think hunger often times can be a result of a poor diet. This isn't always the case and isn't in the case of very fit people like "Built".

The last two weeks I have introduced diluted hot cocoa into my diet once I realized how low the GI was with it. So, I have have 4 cups of that a day, but they are not 4 servings, since they are highly diluted. But at any rate, hot cocoa does not create a raging appitite, in fact, it may even suppress it for myself...

When I hear of people eating 3,000 calories day, I don't know how they do it on healthy foods, I would be so stuffed (I tried it, not good feeling).

Built
01-18-2006, 12:19 PM
You're lucky, and I hate you.

:cry:

Resurrector
01-18-2006, 01:30 PM
after reading so much on this forum its overwhelming! its either your going to do it or you won't. I have the motivation I just need the experience and knowledge to back it up.

For me eating right but eating that much is also harder without any type of mass gainer of that sort. Just gotta experiment and see what works for me. I am extremely famished during the morning. So I have to eat something with a good amount of carbs to keep me going throughout the day.

Vapour Trails
01-18-2006, 02:31 PM
I'd like to know how whole wheat bread promotes fat loss? Carbs hinder fat loss, always.

I've managed to shed 7 pounds in 16 days on a almost carb-free diet. And to my suprise my strength and staminia is still 100%.

brickt.
01-18-2006, 02:57 PM
6.9 pounds of water, my friend. Sorry.

Wild Cat McCane
01-18-2006, 03:58 PM
haven't read it all, but I agree with built here.
in the summer I ate from the morning to evening around 600 calories when working. But when i got off work I would eat a clean 2000-3000 calorie ravaging fiest. Anything I could find I would eat. And I felt comfortable doing it.

I gained well.

ryuage
01-18-2006, 04:06 PM
thats nice and all, but we arent taking about puting on muscle, but rather fat loss.

Wild Cat McCane
01-18-2006, 06:37 PM
I am a very hard gainer. I foget that others aren't. Even having started at 130 and to where I am, I don't know if I have had much of a bf gain ever.

big calvin
01-20-2006, 08:45 AM
great post!

its the morning and im hunrgy... what do i do? lol

HILL
01-20-2006, 10:26 AM
After bulking to the point of feeling sick for most of the day i dnt mind feeling hungry and guess im lucky to the point were i can control it and put it out of my mind.

Tex
01-22-2006, 03:27 PM
How is carbonated water worse than water?