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Built
02-01-2006, 08:26 PM
Okay - I get asked for this a LOT.

My cutting diet is the same as my bulking diet: I carb cycle.

All meals are protein and fat EXCEPT the one before and the one or two after I train - those are protein and carb.

Note that there are conflicting thoughts on whether or not fat and carb should be in the same meal, and why (or why not). My own reasons are comfort-driven: carbs are yummy, but they make me hungry... <more> (http://builtblog.wikidbody.com/2007/08/06/how-to-set-up-a-diet-basic-carb-cycling/)

eatit
02-01-2006, 09:13 PM
super newb question: how do you determine what's starchy and what's not?

i know that potatos, corn, oats and grains are. But are other vegetables like carrots or beets? (i really want to know about them beets... i love 'em)


:thumbup: for the sticky. there are way too many "help me figure out my diet" threads here

Built
02-01-2006, 09:20 PM
super newb question: how do you determine what's starchy and what's not? fitday tells all. Just look at the macronutrient breakdown. If most of it is carb, and you know it ain't sugar ...




i know that potatos, corn, oats and grains are. But are other vegetables like carrots or beets? (i really want to know about them beets... i love 'em)
Treat those as veggies, but ideally, eat 'em in the pre-workout meal. They're a little too carby for the other meals, and a little too high in fiber for post workout.

But it's not THAT big of a deal. If they fit your calories for the day, go for it.



:thumbup: for the sticky. there are way too many "help me figure out my diet" threads here

Thanks for the :thumbup: :)

eatit
02-01-2006, 10:44 PM
do you even bother counting the calories from veggies from say: brocolli, cauliflower, lettuce or green peppers?

i know... don't sweat the small stuff. But just wondering.

Built
02-01-2006, 10:48 PM
I just fitday everything. But put it this way - if I want an extra cup of broccoli, I eat it.

ericg
02-02-2006, 09:16 AM
I did something very similar to this (you can see it outlined in the beginning pages, or so, of my journal) with help from some of the older members of the board. I think it worked pretty well. I got off track a few years back, due to personal reasons, and never got back to having a strict diet plan. For some reason I find it stressful to measure/weigh all my meals, that is all I would think about the entire time i was being strict. Hopefully I can get back on track soon to make some nice changes. Nice post Built.

Utopianhopes
02-02-2006, 05:45 PM
What about cheat/free meals and what do you consider a cheat/free meal?....

ryuage
02-02-2006, 06:02 PM
a cheat/free meal is exactly what it says.

CarlP
02-04-2006, 12:34 PM
Is the carb cycling stuff necessary? Couldn't I simply cut 10-20% of my calories and eat the same foods as on a bulk? Would the cut be just as effective? I like to keep things simple.

Built
02-04-2006, 03:41 PM
The carb cycling is NOT necessary. I like it, and it works well, but there are many, many ways to diet down. This is mine.

Con
02-06-2006, 04:57 AM
After doing this diet for two days I was wondering about a few things. If I went a little too high with protein on rest days, is that ok? I read that protein is the one macronutrient you cant have enough of.
Another things is about eggs, after reading another thread, I saw something about the bad effects of egg yolks. I was thinking this, If the egg yolks have nothing but fat in them, take em out, and have some natural peanut butter to get the good fat and your cals. Just wondering if anyone had any opinions on that idea.

brickt.
02-06-2006, 05:19 AM
1) High protein is cool, just make sure you're under maintenance calories in order to lose.

2) Eat your egg yolks. Good protein, good fats, lots of other awesome goodies. Why waste when they're are kiddies in Somalia who'd die for 4 egg omelette right now?

.. *would die for a 4 egg omelette right now*

Con
02-06-2006, 05:45 PM
I thought that the egg yolks were bad for you, if they are good for you, then I dont mind eatin em.

Btw built, I was wondering about reducing cals. Is it individual or can you systematically reduce cals.

Built
02-06-2006, 05:58 PM
What do you mean "is it individual"?

Eat as many egg yolks as you can afford the calories for. I eat one a day, with 6 whites.

Con
02-07-2006, 02:39 PM
I mean is the way a person reduces cals unique to each person.
For example, would you reduce cals differently than I would, or would we do it the same way.

PeterGriffin
02-09-2006, 07:10 PM
Another newb-'tard question... how do you know how much calories you should intake a day while cutting?

Built
02-09-2006, 07:11 PM
You track your maintenance calories for a week, take the average, and drop it by no more than 20%.

Built
02-09-2006, 07:12 PM
I mean is the way a person reduces cals unique to each person.
For example, would you reduce cals differently than I would, or would we do it the same way.

That's why I suggest dropping by a PERCENTAGE of total calories, not a flat "drop by 500" recommendation.

Con
02-10-2006, 01:35 PM
I meant after your cut starts to progress, how much do you typically drop cals then.

HILL
02-11-2006, 02:53 PM
Glad to see you have put this together built it was needed and you were certainly the person to write it. Your advice has certainly helped me with my cut and ive lost 24 pound upto now and am still going so the advice is gd boys as we know

eatit
02-19-2006, 08:17 PM
built: i was wondering why you consistantly tell people to up their fat intake. other than fat being more filling what are it's other advantages? I know that cholesterol helps in testerone production but at what point does fat intake become dangerously low?

As of now i generally consume less than fourty grams of fat a day which i then suppliment with fish oil. I seem to be doing fine, but am i screwing myself up in the long run?

Built
02-19-2006, 11:24 PM
The fat recommendation that often gets cited is "30% of total cals from fat", but this is only reasonable if you are neither bulking nor cutting and your maintenance calories reflect a metabolism that is working properly. For example, suppose I consume 30% of cals from fat while I'm on maintenance calories - for me, about 2300 a day right now.

This works out to about 75g of fat - well over the half a gram of fat per pound LBM recommendation you often see posted around here as a suggested minimum.

But suppose my metabolism is messed up from years of dieting, and my maintenance calories are only 1500 a day. Now my fats are down to 50g a day, but I still have the same LBM to feed.

Since protein is usually "dosed" toward LBM, it is reasonable to also dose the other essential macronutrient, fat, toward LBM rather than total calories consumed.

Here (http://ruggedmag.com/index.php?type=Article&i=2&a=6) is a source reference for you:

Dorgan J, et al. Effects of dietary fat and fiber on plasma and urine androgens and estrogens in men: a controlled feeding study. Am J Clin Nutr 64(6): 850-855. 1996.

Con - I wait until I plateau, then drop another hundred calories OR add in 20-30 minute walks somewhere in the day to keep the cut going. I haven't managed "contest lean" yet, so I'll defer to the experts in this regard.

Hill - that's WONDERFUL news!

BayAreaLexo
02-24-2006, 01:33 AM
Thanks for the information. Ive always wondered how you know so much! Read alot? You're truly a goddess(;]), keep up the good work!

ryan-
03-04-2006, 02:22 PM
People are always talking about 5-6 meals a day. What are you considering a meal? Can you give me examples of your 6 meals you eat through out the day?

Built
03-04-2006, 02:26 PM
M1: half dozen hardboiled egg whites with one yolk, pat of butter, salt
M2: 3/4 cup cottage cheese, tablespoon natty PB, third of an apple (fish oil)
M3: half avocado, chicken breast, romaine, half red pepper, olive oil and vinegar (fish oil)
M4: Chicken, green beans, butter melted with natural peanut butter drizzled over it, salt (fish oil)
M5: Preworkout: Protein waffle (oats, cottage cheese, eggwhite), extra cottage cheese, berries
During workout: dilute whey with dex and creatine
M6: sweet potato, steak, broccoli
M7: same as M2

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
03-04-2006, 02:29 PM
M1: half dozen hardboiled egg whites with one yolk, pat of butter, salt
M2: 3/4 cup cottage cheese, tablespoon natty PB, third of an apple (fish oil)
M3: half avocado, chicken breast, romaine, half red pepper, olive oil and vinegar (fish oil)
M4: Chicken, green beans, butter melted with natural peanut butter drizzled over it, salt (fish oil)
M5: Preworkout: Protein waffle (oats, cottage cheese, eggwhite), extra cottage cheese, berries
During workout: dilute whey with dex and creatine
M6: sweet potato, steak, broccoli
M7: same as M2I am now officially hungry. Thanks.

D Breyer
03-04-2006, 03:37 PM
wow built great post, very helpful!

BayAreaLexo
03-05-2006, 10:31 AM
How do you feel about having NO fruit on a cut? Some say do, some say don't?

Built
03-05-2006, 11:31 AM
I eat everything on a cut that I eat on a bulk. Just less of it.

The trick, for me at least, is hunger management. If I can't control my hunger, I can't keep my calories under control. Fruit eaten by itself can make me hungry, so I slip it in with other food.

russianwol
03-20-2006, 03:35 PM
Buit - what do you think will happen if I don't drop calories but add a low/high intensity cardio to my workout? The low intensity - walking on treadmil at reasonable heart rate for extended period of time. High intensity - to build up endurance and stamina - get the body used to new weight.

SabresRock299
03-25-2006, 12:45 PM
1) High protein is cool, just make sure you're under maintenance calories in order to lose.

2) Eat your egg yolks. Good protein, good fats, lots of other awesome goodies. Why waste when they're are kiddies in Somalia who'd die for 4 egg omelette right now?

.. *would die for a 4 egg omelette right now*

Isnt bodybuilding on the whole a pretty vein and selfish endever? It seems pretty foolish to scold someone for throwing away yolk when everyone in here, including yourself, spends waaaaay too much time on their diet and excersize.

ecliptic
04-03-2006, 12:47 PM
Isnt bodybuilding on the whole a pretty vein and selfish endever? It seems pretty foolish to scold someone for throwing away yolk when everyone in here, including yourself, spends waaaaay too much time on their diet and excersize.

Bodybuilding is only vein if you make it out to be that way. For me, its discipline and a good form of exercise.

Built
04-03-2006, 01:08 PM
Buit - what do you think will happen if I don't drop calories but add a low/high intensity cardio to my workout? The low intensity - walking on treadmil at reasonable heart rate for extended period of time. High intensity - to build up endurance and stamina - get the body used to new weight.

You can certainly create the caloric deficit by keeping an iron grip on your current calories and adding in cardio. The risk is to your LBM, and everybody reacts differently in this regard.

Isnt bodybuilding on the whole a pretty vein and selfish endever? It seems pretty foolish to scold someone for throwing away yolk when everyone in here, including yourself, spends waaaaay too much time on their diet and excersize.(
Sabres, for me, it's all about the vanity.

I tried for years to be "healthy". So I did things that were supposed to be healthy. I ate "healthy" low fat food, I did lots of "healthy" cardio … and still, good health eluded me. I was overweight and suffered a variety of weight-related health problems.

There's a problem with focusing on being healthy: What the hell IS healthy? A series of inputs, or an outcome? It's too fuzzy-set, too latent a variable. Hard to define, impossible to focus on because it can mean too many different things, depending on the context.
When I started to focus on LOOKING better, the astonishingly good health fell out as a very welcome side-effect.

I'm really healthy. But if THIS didn't make me look good, I'd find something else.
I spend about 5 minutes a day planning out my diet, and an hour four days a week in the gym, plus the odd walk. Given the alternative, this hardly sounds excessive.

My .02

SabresRock299
04-04-2006, 03:55 PM
Bodybuilding is only vein if you make it out to be that way. For me, its discipline and a good form of exercise.

So if you looked the same or worse youd still workout as much? Bodybuilding is nothing but masterbation. Its vanity 100% and its sick when you think about it.

getfit
04-04-2006, 04:00 PM
So if you looked the same or worse youd still workout as much? Bodybuilding is nothing but masterbation. Its vanity 100% and its sick when you think about it.
where on earth do you come up with posts like this?

is there a problem?

Haaji Dont Surf
04-04-2006, 04:02 PM
Where can I find macros for dead baby?

Built
04-04-2006, 04:14 PM
I'm sure it's similar to suckling pig. Is suckling pig on fitday?

Haaji Dont Surf
04-04-2006, 04:18 PM
I'm sure it's similar to suckling pig. Is suckling pig on fitday?
I don't believe so. I'd really like those macros though, dead babies are good for a bulk, I usually take two or three with me when I head out for the day.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
04-04-2006, 04:24 PM
So if you looked the same or worse youd still workout as much? Bodybuilding is nothing but masterbation. Its vanity 100% and its sick when you think about it.You get the worst post ever award. :)

K.Huget
04-04-2006, 07:44 PM
Awesome thread, i'm trying to base my cut roughly around this but I do have a couple questions.

1) I've decided to stop using creatine for my cut so that I can cycle it in again during the summer. Does creatine in any way benefit a cut?

2) I love milk. It's such an easy source of protein and I love the taste. It's tough to bring a good tasting/healthy lunch to school so I often bring something small like half a sandwich and then walk to wal-mart and buy a 1L of skim milk, which I finish easily every day. In the end, my milk consumption for one day is over 2L (workout days). Even if I stick to a good amount of calories for cutting will this amount of milk screw up my progress?

3) How many calories can the average person (school, watching tv at night) burn every day not including workouts? Fitday is giving me a number that puts my amount of burnt calories for the day up at around 4000 which is waaaaaayy too much.

Built
04-04-2006, 07:53 PM
1) Leave the creatine in. Anything with zero calories that helps your muscles work is a Good Thing (tm). I extra-salt on a cut, too. Same reason.

2) There are no magically good or bad foods. If you like milk and can afford the cals, knock yourself out.

3) Don't even TRY to calculate your caloric expenditure. Track what you can measure: your weight, your measurements, your skinfolds ... and the food you put in your mouth.

K.Huget
04-04-2006, 08:54 PM
Alright i'll stay on the creatine and keep drinking milk. Thanks for answering so quick.

SpecialK
04-28-2006, 09:00 PM
Built, could you clarify something for me? Once you know you are consuming below maintenance calories, how do you determine when to make further reductions? I think the answer is implied in your first post (1 week with no weightloss = reduce cals as a % of the current total), but I just wanted to ask to make sure.

Built
04-28-2006, 09:03 PM
I wait until I've stalled for a couple weeks, then drop another hundred cals OR increase cardio slightly. It's definitely the fiddly part of cutting.

SpecialK
05-01-2006, 03:23 PM
When cutting, do you track your weight every day? When you lose weight, how do you know if it's from fat, as opposed to water, less food sitting in stomach, or god forbid, muscle?

Do you use calipers or anything to monitor bf%?

Built
05-01-2006, 06:06 PM
I track weight every day, and count the lowest number I hit as I progress through the cut - if it's too fast, I eat a little more.

I get my bodyfat tested by DEXA at the end of the cut and at the end of the bulk, and simply trust that I'm doing it right through the rest of it. I don't cut fast - less than a pound a week - and I pay attention to keeping iron on the bar.

SpecialK
05-01-2006, 08:04 PM
I track weight every day, and count the lowest number I hit as I progress through the cut - if it's too fast, I eat a little more.

I get my bodyfat tested by DEXA at the end of the cut and at the end of the bulk, and simply trust that I'm doing it right through the rest of it. I don't cut fast - less than a pound a week - and I pay attention to keeping iron on the bar.

Where does one go to get tested with DEXA?

Built
05-01-2006, 08:07 PM
I get it done through Nuclear Medicine at one of the local hospitals.

JustLost
05-02-2006, 06:09 AM
I get it done through Nuclear Medicine at one of the local hospitals.


Those gamma rays rock for bulking. Just ask Bruce Banner.

SpecialK
05-02-2006, 01:47 PM
I get it done through Nuclear Medicine at one of the local hospitals.

Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but can you have that done for no other reason than to assess your body composition? I mean, if you are a perfectly healthy individual and have no reason to suspect otherwise, can you request to have a DEXA body composition test just for the heck of it?

Built
05-02-2006, 01:49 PM
Yes. That's what I do.

panblades
05-18-2006, 02:48 PM
Hey Built.

First, I want to say that I greatly admire you. I've never seen someone who is so intelligible with her regimen and can also put her knowledge to practice.

I have a few questions I hope you can answer concerning your diet and training.

1.) I am cutting, and my caloric reductions are not extreme. I always eat at maintenance calories and rely on the cardio and weight training to create the slight deficit. However, you said that the risk of cardio is loss of lean body mass. This means that for the past several weeks that I've been cutting, I've been living a lie! I've been doing 60-minute, low intensity morning cardio after ingesting a fat burner, glutamine, and BCAAs upon waking up, because one of the moderators in the Bodybuilding forums, str8flexed, says this:

"In men, cardio increases lipolysis in visceral fat, especially in the stubborn abdominal area [due to the abundance of alpha receptors in the stomach region for men, or in the hip and thigh regions for women). This is due to INNERVATION and BLOOD FLOW, which aerobic activity influences much more than DIET ALONE."

I know that you can't spot-reduce, but he seems to be implying that the benefit of cardio is that it maximizes lipolysis to a greater extent than mere caloric restriction in our diet.

Doesn't cardio help to clear out the "cellular debris" that is accumulated during our workouts? And I know that high-intensity cardio should be avoided because chances of LBM are high, although some people have argued that it can promote a conversion of slow-twitch muscle fibers to Type-II fast twitch fibers, which have a greater chance of hypertrophy than slow twitch. But I'm pretty convinced that high-intensity cardio isn't good for a cut.

Overall, my question is, if I had to create the optimal caloric deficit, would my best bet be to eat at maintenance calories or a little below maintenance, and only doing weight training, and dropping cardio altogether?

And as the need to progressively drop calories becomes necessary, do you suggest that I just eat less calories in my diet rather than upping the cardio?

My friend does a ridiculous form of cardio that I may now begin to respect. He wakes up, ingests a whey protein shake (to suppress cortisol, which, in high amounts, can promote visceral fat), and 30 minutes after, does a 1 HOUR MORNING WALK. I was like, "How can walks be so effective for you?" Is this because they preserve muscle better? Should I rule out cardio?

2.) I know that leaving sodium out of my diet isn't good for cutting, so how much salt should I be taking in? My Tyson chicken breast has 540mg of sodium for each piece of chicken. How many mg should I be taking in each day?

And also, I know that when dieting, since you lose both sodium and potassium, your thyroid metabolism slows down because these two are what keeps it elevated. But, aren't sodium and potassium antagonistic, just as excess protein can cause calcium deficiency?

In other words, if I up my sodium, won't that cause me to lose more potassium, which in turn will slow down my thyroid metabolism? Should I be taking in equal amounts of sodium and potassium to keep my thyroid metabolism up? I don't want to rely on bananas because they are not good carbs. What should I do?

3.) I am aware of the fallacy of upping volume and intensity while cutting. I admit, I used to do 12 reps of a moderate weight, with 30-60 seconds rest in between sets, and doing lots of exercises for each muscle.

Now I've been going as heavy as I can for 6-8 reps, sticking with the compound exercises for maximum overload (not isolation movements).

Do you believe in this too? "If you rep more than 8, go up in weight!" But recently, I've been slowly convinced to go the Max-OT methd, which is 4-6 reps.

The point I'm trying to make is, is it better to reduce volume and keep weight up for the sake of muscle preservation while cutting?

4.) My diet is kind of similar to yours, kind of.. I am doing a timed carb diet, where I time my carb intake to only immediately after the workout, and then I return to protein-fat meals. But what you said is, on training days you don't eat as much fat. Is this because the insulin elevation caused by the post-workout carbs might cause your body to store fat when you return to protein-fat meals later in the day?

Should I only do high fat (45-60%) on non-training days?
My daily caloric maintenance is 2800 calories, so I make sure to take in at least 140g of fat. The one meal that has carbs is the post-workout meal, but I always make sure that my carb intake doesn't go past 10-15%.

Overall, my insulin levels are kept low due to the protein-fat meals, but you still seem to imply that we're better off only going high-fat on non-training days. Is this due to the possibility of fat storage if I eat protein-fat combinations in the subsequent meals after my post-workout meal (due to the insulin surge)?

I'm sorry for my questions, but I'm eager to hear back from you.

Built
05-18-2006, 04:10 PM
Hey Built.

First, I want to say that I greatly admire you. I've never seen someone who is so intelligible with her regimen and can also put her knowledge to practice.

We try to be clear … ;)




I have a few questions I hope you can answer concerning your diet and training.

1.) I am cutting, and my caloric reductions are not extreme. I always eat at maintenance calories and rely on the cardio and weight training to create the slight deficit. However, you said that the risk of cardio is loss of lean body mass. This means that for the past several weeks that I've been cutting, I've been living a lie! I've been doing 60-minute, low intensity morning cardio after ingesting a fat burner, glutamine, and BCAAs upon waking up, because one of the moderators in the Bodybuilding forums, str8flexed, says this:
I’m not convinced BCAA do much of anything as a supplement – whatever benefit they have will be greater still than you’re likely to feel from glutamine. The fatburner is a good idea, a small whey shake wouldn’t hurt you either.




"In men, cardio increases lipolysis in visceral fat, especially in the stubborn abdominal area [due to the abundance of alpha receptors in the stomach region for men, or in the hip and thigh regions for women). This is due to INNERVATION and BLOOD FLOW, which aerobic activity influences much more than DIET ALONE."

I know that you can't spot-reduce, but he seems to be implying that the benefit of cardio is that it maximizes lipolysis to a greater extent than mere caloric restriction in our diet.
I’ve read this, too. Perhaps follow Lyle’s “stubborn fat protocol” – use a fatburner with yohimbine, no carbs for several hours after the protocol …



Doesn't cardio help to clear out the "cellular debris" that is accumulated during our workouts? And I know that high-intensity cardio should be avoided because chances of LBM are high, although some people have argued that it can promote a conversion of slow-twitch muscle fibers to Type-II fast twitch fibers, which have a greater chance of hypertrophy than slow twitch. But I'm pretty convinced that high-intensity cardio isn't good for a cut.
Think again. I like to incorporate a small dietary caloric deficit with a little HIIT and a little steady state. But mostly I rely on diet for the deficit, and heavy lifting to preserve LBM.



Overall, my question is, if I had to create the optimal caloric deficit, would my best bet be to eat at maintenance calories or a little below maintenance, and only doing weight training, and dropping cardio altogether?
See above – do a little of each, but mostly rely on diet for your deficit. Don’t try to exercise off your fat.




And as the need to progressively drop calories becomes necessary, do you suggest that I just eat less calories in my diet rather than upping the cardio?
I start with the diet, but yours may be a very good strategy. Hmmm…



My friend does a ridiculous form of cardio that I may now begin to respect. He wakes up, ingests a whey protein shake (to suppress cortisol, which, in high amounts, can promote visceral fat), and 30 minutes after, does a 1 HOUR MORNING WALK. I was like, "How can walks be so effective for you?" Is this because they preserve muscle better? Should I rule out cardio?
Doesn’t burn that many calories. Personally I wouldn’t go longer than 30-40 mins, but I’m lazy and hate cardio.



2.) I know that leaving sodium out of my diet isn't good for cutting, so how much salt should I be taking in? My Tyson chicken breast has 540mg of sodium for each piece of chicken. How many mg should I be taking in each day?
No clue. I just salt my food to taste and I’m done with it.



And also, I know that when dieting, since you lose both sodium and potassium, your thyroid metabolism slows down because these two are what keeps it elevated. But, aren't sodium and potassium antagonistic, just as excess protein can cause calcium deficiency?
I eat a LOT of produce. And a potassium supp may not be a bad idea for the reasons you mention. Health recommendations for potassium just went up from something like 3600 mg to 4700mg daily if memory serves.




In other words, if I up my sodium, won't that cause me to lose more potassium, which in turn will slow down my thyroid metabolism? Should I be taking in equal amounts of sodium and potassium to keep my thyroid metabolism up? I don't want to rely on bananas because they are not good carbs. What should I do?

3.) I am aware of the fallacy of upping volume and intensity while cutting. I admit, I used to do 12 reps of a moderate weight, with 30-60 seconds rest in between sets, and doing lots of exercises for each muscle.

Now I've been going as heavy as I can for 6-8 reps, sticking with the compound exercises for maximum overload (not isolation movements).

Do you believe in this too? "If you rep more than 8, go up in weight!" But recently, I've been slowly convinced to go the Max-OT methd, which is 4-6 reps.

The point I'm trying to make is, is it better to reduce volume and keep weight up for the sake of muscle preservation while cutting?
Yes. High weight, lower the volume as necessary.




3.) My diet is kind of similar to yours, kind of.. I am doing a timed carb diet, where I time my carb intake to only immediately after the workout, and then I return to protein-fat meals. But what you said is, on training days you don't eat as much fat. Is this because the insulin elevation caused by the post-workout carbs might cause your body to store fat when you return to protein-fat meals later in the day?
Naw. It’s just so I can eat more carb.




Should I only do high fat (45-60%) on non-training days?
Ignore ratios. Go by LBM.



My daily caloric maintenance is 2800 calories, so I make sure to take in at least 140g of fat. The one meal that has carbs is the post-workout meal, but I always make sure that my carb intake doesn't go past 10-15%.
I really don’t micromanage it THAT much. I get solid protein and carb about an hour before, and more RIGHT after, and for me, that’s comfortable.



Overall, my insulin levels are kept low due to the protein-fat meals, but you still seem to imply that we're better off only going high-fat on non-training days. Is this due to the possibility of fat storage if I eat protein-fat combinations in the subsequent meals after my post-workout meal (due to the insulin surge)?
I do it for the appetite suppression. There may be other advantages to it, but mostly, I find it the most comfortable way to keep the cals low.

SpecialK
06-01-2006, 06:20 PM
Built, do you ever do refeeds? If so, how do you determine when they are necessary?

Built
06-01-2006, 06:26 PM
I sure do!

I track on fitday, and have a peek at the monthly calorie report.

When I notice I haven't had one in a few weeks, I toss one in.

I usually try to set 'em up so they coincide with some sort of a feast: somebody's birthday, an anniversary, holliday ... and I do a heavy workout of some sort that day too. Experience has taught me that if I don't, I just feel like garbage from the massive bender - I typically go at least a thousand calories over whatever I've been doing and that's a LOT of extra food for my body to handle. If I train that day, I get to enjoy a KILLER workout AND it burns off some blood sugar so I just feel really GOOD that day. Sometimes I'll time it to coincide with a hike with friends, or a really long bike ride - a dessert tour of Vancouver is a LOVELY way to spend a summer day...

SpecialK
07-11-2006, 11:12 AM
I wait until I've stalled for a couple weeks, then drop another hundred cals OR increase cardio slightly. It's definitely the fiddly part of cutting.

When you reduce, do you always take it out of carbs, and leave protein and fat alone?

Built
07-11-2006, 01:20 PM
No - I usually eat so much protein and fat, I can drop a little from them, too if I have to.

SpecialK
07-11-2006, 01:56 PM
No - I usually eat so much protein and fat, I can drop a little from them, too if I have to.

Do you ever let them fall below the 1.5g/lb. LBM (protein) and 0.5g/lb. LBM (fat) limits?

Built
07-11-2006, 06:44 PM
(I think you mean a gram per pound LBM for protein and half a gram of fat per pound LBM)

No.

For my LBM, this would mean 115g protein and 57.5g fat, which totals under a thousand calories. The lowest I've dropped calories to in recent history has been about 1600-1700 - still PLENTY of room for sufficient protein and fat.

Mercuryblade
07-11-2006, 07:02 PM
I'm at work and in kind of an antsy mood, so I don't know if this has been said already, but one of the best ways to stave off hunger is to eat lots of veggies.
Sorry for the URBANSMOOTH style post (no offense buddy :)) but my brain is wierd from all the exciting data entry I've been doing.

xtrapounds
07-13-2006, 01:40 AM
Being an "extrapound" myself, I tried to do bodybuilding some time back and at the same time, I took TRIPHALA (http://www.drugdelivery.ca/s33654-s-TRIPHALA.aspx) which is meant to help me in my digestion, but at the same time, it is a "glucose-reducing agent". So maybe it might help some dudes over here. Good luck with that!

Tru Texan
11-17-2006, 09:57 AM
Noob question..what does "HIIT", and "SS cardio" mean?

Holto
11-17-2006, 12:09 PM
High Intensity Interval Training ie: sprinting and walking

Steady State Cardio: treadmill, eliptical, etc

ancom41
11-17-2006, 12:28 PM
First off, I have to give props to built for an excellent thread; as well to all of other members for their excellent questions. Its great to read an informative and healthy thread.

Built, would you care to expalin the effects of sugar on the body? Is there a place for sugar in a cut or bulk diet? Does sugar have a place in hindering/helping hypertrophy? Insulin levels? I've always heard that High Fructose Corn Syrup is the devil's work, why is this?

russianwol
11-17-2006, 01:11 PM
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=274 - this is the article that explains it all.

ancom41
11-17-2006, 03:12 PM
*smacks head*
My bad, thank you :D

coconut
12-16-2006, 03:05 AM
so BUILT,

1)you don't do cardio at all when cutting?

2) so cardio is not needed at all if you just cut calories?

Fuzzy
12-16-2006, 06:23 AM
ok then, what if i eat NO carbs AT all.

Sure Ill be low on energy... but yeah. Lets say, break is bacon and eggs swimming in fat... well some fat! midmorning meal is ham/turkey some form of coldmeat, then lunch and lunch 2 is a gigantic chicken salad drenched in olive oil, and dinner is a 2 pound steak with fat.

No carbs... this good for a cut?

Plus burning a ****load of energy from lifting 4 times, and rowing 6 times a week.

RedSpikeyThing
12-16-2006, 09:07 AM
[QUOTE=Fuzzy;1559761]
No carbs... this good for a cut?
/QUOTE]

No, not a good idea. You need to have some carbs. If you consumed no carbs, your would enter into a state know as Ketosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis), which can be lethal.

WBBIRL
12-16-2006, 09:23 AM
Ketosis isn't a problem as long as you get some carbs and keep the protein high. If the protein isnt high enough your body will enter a catabolic state wreaking havoc on your muscles in order to get the proteins it needs to derive other Essential Nutrients, since your muscles are pretty much the only stored forms of protein in your body.

You should however avoid ketosis in your current scenario. Working that long/hard will require plenty of glycogen and your body will be using a lot of carbs so no reason to cut them out.

You can cycle carbs, that would be a good idea.

http://www.skippypodar.net/Fitness/carbcycling.html

RedSpikeyThing
12-16-2006, 10:11 AM
Ketosis isn't a problem as long as you get some carbs and keep the protein high. If the protein isnt high enough your body will enter a catabolic state wreaking havoc on your muscles in order to get the proteins it needs to derive other Essential Nutrients, since your muscles are pretty much the only stored forms of protein in your body.


Hmmmm I always thought ketosis was bad. Why are no carb (as opposed to low carb) diets considered bad?

Built
12-16-2006, 11:08 AM
RedSpikeyThing - ketosis is a normal state - your body goes into and out of ketosis all day as it stores and retrieves fat. I lived in ketosis for months when I did Atkins. It's fine.

I think ketosis and ketoacidosis get mixed up a lot, and ketoacidosis IS bad news - but that's a diabetic complication, not a normal physiological process.

Fuzzy
12-16-2006, 11:13 AM
Ok, fuzz is carb cycling.

RedSpikeyThing
12-16-2006, 12:06 PM
RedSpikeyThing - ketosis is a normal state - your body goes into and out of ketosis all day as it stores and retrieves fat. I lived in ketosis for months when I did Atkins. It's fine.

I think ketosis and ketoacidosis get mixed up a lot, and ketoacidosis IS bad news - but that's a diabetic complication, not a normal physiological process.

Ok, so ketoacidosis is bad. Why then is a no carb diet bad? Or am I really confused :scratch:

Built
12-16-2006, 08:38 PM
You're really confused.

:)

Fuzzy
12-16-2006, 08:49 PM
ok, fuzz needs to go on a google run

canadianbuilder
12-26-2006, 09:29 PM
I am starting tomorrow on fitday to find my maintenance calories for 1 week, the problem is each day is different, one day I eat way more, one day I will eat way less. Same thing with the quality of food, some days I will eat healthy, some days I will eat unhealthy. So this in the end will change my average accurate maintenance calories. Should I wait until I can healthy for one week to find it, or what can I do? I want to do this as soon as possible. But with Holiday time, I think it may be better to track my diet in a couple weeks?

Comments, I am confused?

RedSpikeyThing
12-27-2006, 11:33 AM
I am starting tomorrow on fitday to find my maintenance calories for 1 week, the problem is each day is different, one day I eat way more, one day I will eat way less. Same thing with the quality of food, some days I will eat healthy, some days I will eat unhealthy. So this in the end will change my average accurate maintenance calories. Should I wait until I can healthy for one week to find it, or what can I do? I want to do this as soon as possible. But with Holiday time, I think it may be better to track my diet in a couple weeks?

Comments, I am confused?

Pick a couple of average days and use those. Although 'tis the season for eating like crap, so waiting a week or two might not be a bad idea.
Basically, you just need an idea of your average intake; a ballpark number to start with.

canadianbuilder
12-27-2006, 12:02 PM
I will start counting in Janurary sometime then like suggested, probably when school starts.
But I signed up and started entering things in to get used to it. Quite a neat set up.
Thanks

Mad Max
02-01-2007, 11:59 AM
Built in yours and other people's opinion I must ask how important is your macronutritional breakdown, beyond your fat and protein needs, on a cut?
I know that's a very vague question, and it varie from individual to individual. Will having P+F+C in every meal make that much difference? If you are in a calorie deficit, your insulin levels are low anyway, and I can't imagine eating 300g of carbs spread out over the day is going to make much of a difference (based on the limited literature I've read). It seems to be to be a question of optimisation and comfort.
The reason I ask, is that I generally have no problem calorie counting and knocking off 20% for the day, but managing the macros themselves can be really tedious, and I'd rather avoid it as much as possible. I'm contemplating a number of different cuts that I could start on next week. I'm roughly 11% bf, and just want to slip down to 8%.

Cheers

Built
02-01-2007, 01:37 PM
Near as I can tell from the small amount of reading that I have done and my own personal experience is that the big deals, are, in order:

*Calories - maintain a deficit or you don't drop. Maintain a surplus or you don't grow.
*Sufficient essential nutrients (amino acids, fatty acids, micronutrients)
*Targeted nutrition (ie insulin and an available pool of AA surrounging/after the workout window)
*Comfort

Now, as someone gets close to contest, the rules change. I don't do contest prep, I've never competed, and I make no pretense in this regard.

This wishy-washy enough for you?

unstop
02-01-2007, 02:08 PM
Built, in your original example, your "average" daily calorie intake is about 500 calories below maintenance. For bulking, your average calorie intake would work out to be about 500 calories above maintenance.

My question is, specifically regarding bulking, do you make this calorie increase immediate or gradual? And, is one way better than the other?

For example, let's say someone just finished a cut and has been maintaining at 2500 calories per day. On Monday, they decide they are ready to start bulking. On Tuesday, should they start right off eating 3000 calories every day from then on? Or, should they go to maybe 2750 right away, and then up it to 3000 at some point later on. Or add something 150 calories to their daily intake on a weekly basis, or really anything less immediate than 500 cals right off the bat?

I guess either way the person would start gaining weight, with 500 calories they'll gain about 1 pound, with under 500 calories, they'll gain under 1lb/week. Either way, they're gaining. My thinking here is that maybe the lesser/slower calorie increase would lead to less fat gain. But, at the same time, would it also lead to less muscle gain?

Basically what I'm wondering is, would there be any benefit to a lesser/slower calorie increase, or is the flat out 500 calorie increase really the key to the bulk?

Thanks.

Built
02-04-2007, 04:51 PM
Oh you would ask a tough one.

I really don't know the "best" way or if there IS one.

I go by how much muscle I'm likely to gain per month, and how fat I'm willing to get.

Experience and a few DEXAs have told me that the most LBM I can expect to gain on a bulk (and this is ME, okay, an unassisted, well-developed middle-aged woman) is about 2/3 lb a month.

If this were FAT, I'd need to maintain a caloric surplus of about 80 calories a day. Not much, hey?

I have two options here:

Decide up front how "fat" I'm willing to get (ie assuming the ONLY weight is fat), and that's how much I'll increase calories.

Or

I'll set a time limit and an amount of weight I'm willing to gain (in other words, how much fat I can face having to diet off again later).

In practice, I've taken to doing the second. It's more relaxing, and I get to stop tracking my food for a few months. If I gain too fast, I dial back a bit on the cookies.

If you gain too fast, most of what you gain will be fat. How fast is "too fast" depends on how male, young, undeveloped, and assisted you are.

I seem to recall Lyle McDonald saying that a well-developed male might be able to gain 2 lbs LBM in a month; a female - half that. And there may be "optimal" levels of bodyfat that are required before you'll bulk well.

Beyond this point there be dragons.

unstop
02-04-2007, 07:05 PM
Oh you would ask a tough one.

I really don't know the "best" way or if there IS one.

I go by how much muscle I'm likely to gain per month, and how fat I'm willing to get.

Experience and a few DEXAs have told me that the most LBM I can expect to gain on a bulk (and this is ME, okay, an unassisted, well-developed middle-aged woman) is about 2/3 lb a month.

If this were FAT, I'd need to maintain a caloric surplus of about 80 calories a day. Not much, hey?

I have two options here:

Decide up front how "fat" I'm willing to get (ie assuming the ONLY weight is fat), and that's how much I'll increase calories.

Or

I'll set a time limit and an amount of weight I'm willing to gain (in other words, how much fat I can face having to diet off again later).

In practice, I've taken to doing the second. It's more relaxing, and I get to stop tracking my food for a few months. If I gain too fast, I dial back a bit on the cookies.

If you gain too fast, most of what you gain will be fat. How fast is "too fast" depends on how male, young, undeveloped, and assisted you are.

I seem to recall Lyle McDonald saying that a well-developed male might be able to gain 2 lbs LBM in a month; a female - half that. And there may be "optimal" levels of bodyfat that are required before you'll bulk well.

Beyond this point there be dragons.

Tough questions... I'm like the Barbara Walters of the forum. :thumbup:

I kind of like a combination of both methods. Have an idea of how much weight you want to gain, how fat you're willing to get, and set a time limit for it all.

I've done 3 bulks so far, and I'm really not that happy with how the last 2 went. After the first bulk and cut, I ended up at about 150lbs (I'm 5'11) after starting at 120lbs. Job well done there, I must say.

For that bulk, I did it very cleanly, and started with a flat out 500 calorie increase, and added something like 300 whenever I stopped gaining. That bulk was the first time in my life that I wasn't stick-figure-skinny. In fact, I had myself a bulking gut. This freaked me out a little, so I made a mental note to try to gain less fat next time.

So next bulk, I started with just a 150 calorie increase, and even did some cardio throughout the bulk. My weight VERY slowly increased, and when it stalled, I added just another 150 calories. In the end, I felt I didn't gain nearly enough strength, didn't increase my lifts nearly enough, didn't gain nearly enough muscle, (you get the idea). I actually felt I somehow gained too much fat, which is probably partly due to the fact that every single ounce of fat I gain my body stores on my stomach. The rest of my body remains lean while my stomach increases 4 inches.

The bulk after that I don't even want to talk about because it makes me sound like a moron. Basically, you know the quote "always do what you always did and you'll always get what you always got?" That was me. I basically repeated the bulk before this one.

From that second and third bulk, I think I gained a total of maybe 10lbs of LBM at most.

This leads to me to think that maybe I personally require the larger, faster, calorie increase. I'm 24, natural (never even touched creatine), and at the end of the very slow cut I'm doing now should be a somewhat lean 160lbs.

I've been trying to locate some sort of science proving exactly how many calories I need, or at least something proving that too few calories (even though they still put you in a surplus) isn't really ideal. So far, I got nothing but my own personal experience and from that, I'm thinking I may need to go the more calorie route.

Built
02-04-2007, 07:08 PM
Good luck with the exact science part.

Lemme know if you find anything. ;)

unstop
02-04-2007, 07:28 PM
Will do.

dscarth
06-17-2007, 11:11 PM
where on earth do you come up with posts like this?

is there a problem?

He managed to mangle a fight club quote, actually, for purposes of trying to come off as philosophical, I guess.
"Self improvement is masturbation, self destruction is the answer."

Using that as a point of reference, users here are destroying themselves. View bodybuilding instead as the destruction of a fat, sedentary, weak self, and improvement becomes the end result.

...yin and yang, the thread goes on, and nobody in the audience has any idea.

jamrock
06-19-2007, 02:12 PM
Height: 6'0
Weight: 215lbs
LBM: 190lbs

Daily Req:::
Water, 1-2 gallons
Protein, 190g (760cal)
Fat, 95g (855cal)
Carb, 100g (400cal)
Total Cals: 2015k/cal

Built, ignore my PM.

I assume I deduct the fat I get from my fish oil and olive oil - not just the meats.. My carb sources will be oats, sweet and regular potatoes. I may take some glucose pills for pre-wo. My protein will come from chicken and turkey breast, tuna, beef and nitrean.

I work out 3days on, 1 day off (12 day rotation). I run 5-6 days a week (mon-sat), it's only about a mile and a half. I plan to eat the same 6 days out of the week.

For the next 3-4 weeks I'm going to be stuck running, doing push ups, dips, pull ups, and crunches.. no real weight work. Think I'll be alright?

I'm trying to get down to the 190's.

Joseppi
06-03-2008, 07:05 PM
You can certainly create the caloric deficit by keeping an iron grip on your current calories and adding in cardio. The risk is to your LBM, and everybody reacts differently in this regard.

Sabres, for me, it's all about the vanity.

I tried for years to be "healthy". So I did things that were supposed to be healthy. I ate "healthy" low fat food, I did lots of "healthy" cardio … and still, good health eluded me. I was overweight and suffered a variety of weight-related health problems.

There's a problem with focusing on being healthy: What the hell IS healthy? A series of inputs, or an outcome? It's too fuzzy-set, too latent a variable. Hard to define, impossible to focus on because it can mean too many different things, depending on the context.
When I started to focus on LOOKING better, the astonishingly good health fell out as a very welcome side-effect.

I'm really healthy. But if THIS didn't make me look good, I'd find something else.
I spend about 5 minutes a day planning out my diet, and an hour four days a week in the gym, plus the odd walk. Given the alternative, this hardly sounds excessive.

My .02



Built, I'm curious as to how adding in cardio and keeping the same calories is more of a risk to your LBM compared to creating the caloric deficit strictly through diet? For those of us who don't mind cardio this might be more appealing than creating a caloric deficit through diet alone. Apologies if this is a newbie question...

WBBIRL
06-03-2008, 07:44 PM
Your on low calories, all that cardiovascular exercise could force your muscles not to recovery fully and you can end up losing LBM.

It's safer as far as preserving muscle goes to lift heavy and eat light if your trying to cut down. The majority of your physique goals happen inside the kitchen and no where else, liftings weights help but the kitchen is mightier then the gym. Get both of those elements working together and your going to be making a beeline straight for your goals.

Absoluteherb
06-04-2008, 07:09 AM
A meal is considered as prepared food which have at least two nutritive classe of food. Six different meals include;fufu corn and vegetables;rice and its accomplishment;ero; njegatu;coacoayams and stew;cornchaff

Joseppi
06-04-2008, 10:09 AM
WBBIRL,

Thanks for the response. Though I'm pretty sure that Built was responding to was a question concerning keeping your calories normal (maintenance) and adding in cardio instead of creating the caloric deficit through diet. You mentioned cardiovascular exercise with low calories.
Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that while cutting, diet and heavy weights will give you better results than diet + heavy weights + cardio?
I'm not trying to be difficult, just want to be sure I'm reading all of this right...

Thanks again.

JSully
06-04-2008, 02:10 PM
Cardio should never be used to create deficit. It should be used to either train your heart, or utilize free fatty acids in the bloodstream for energy which is done during very low intensity (130bpm heartrate) cardio:: ie treadmill @ 12%incline, 2.5-3mph..

Your deficit should be with the food, such as WBBIRL is saying. Creatine too much of a deficit will not fuel your muscles well for working out though. Stick with 500kcal/day deficit unless your utilizing a different approach I'll neglect to mention.


If you KNOW EXACTLY (on a scientific level) what you're doing, diet + weights + cardio will give you optimal results. Otherwise diet + weights will give you better results than the former. There is way too many variables for me to breakdown a scientific level for you, I suggest you purchase a few books and start reading if you want to get that in depth.

My suggestion:: follow WBBIRL's advice and stick with nutrition + training and ditch the cardio. You want to preserve as much muscle as possible while cutting and cardio will promote the breakdown of proteins (loss of muscle).

BrainDed
02-19-2009, 04:39 PM
There is way too many variables for me to breakdown a scientific level for you, I suggest you purchase a few books and start reading if you want to get that in depth.



Any suggestions on the book? As a newb so much of this is way over my head.

Right now I'm simply eating often and little amounts. (current goal is to reduce body fat) I weight train 4 days a week, protein shake before and after, and my cardio includes softball and 1 or 2 light elliptical sessions a week. From what I am reading here I should kill those elliptical sessions, yes/ no?

I would love to replace them with HIT but it just dosnt seem practicle for me. My Gym has no track and I live in a very densely populated area.


I should add a typical day's diet here too, kinda nervous to see the response to this.

M1) Slimfast shake - dont laugh, good balance of protien/fat and i hate eating in the am. 200 cals
M2) Piece of Fruit - 100 cals
M3) Healthy Choice Meal - Again, easy at work and good balance. 250-300 cals
M4) Fruit - 100 cals
M5) 1/2 Can Turkey Chilli and pre workout protien Shake. 400 cals
M6) Post Work out protien Shake 200 cals