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sheparay
02-07-2006, 11:07 AM
I see that a lot of people suggest oats in a PWO shake. So I tried it... I threw 1/2 cup of quaker oats in the blender with my whey... Anyway, it turned out the be kind of a mess.... The oats just sank to the bottom of the blender...then the bottom of my cup. Am I doing something wrong here or is this just how it is. I just wound up eating my shake with a spoon! :thumbup:

getfit
02-07-2006, 11:09 AM
grind your oats

sheparay
02-07-2006, 11:18 AM
ah...thats the ticket!!

waynis
02-07-2006, 12:39 PM
micronized oats!

gator
02-07-2006, 01:22 PM
I see that a lot of people suggest oats in a PWO shake. So I tried it... I threw 1/2 cup of quaker oats in the blender with my whey... Anyway, it turned out the be kind of a mess.... The oats just sank to the bottom of the blender...then the bottom of my cup. Am I doing something wrong here or is this just how it is. I just wound up eating my shake with a spoon! :thumbup:

Why do people suggest oats in a PWO shake, they are low GI carbs and thats not good for creating a spike in your insulin levels.

Davidelmo
02-07-2006, 01:40 PM
There's quite a debate about this at the moment about whether spiking insulin after a workout is actually necessary.

Some say that your body is so primed already you don't particularly need that spike. Also some people don't want to take in 70g of sugar at any time!

I use oats in my PWO shake. If anything they provide some long-lasting replenishment and extra calories! Plus they make the texture so much better :D:D

getfit
02-07-2006, 01:43 PM
There's quite a debate about this at the moment about whether spiking insulin after a workout is actually necessary.

Some say that your body is so primed already you don't particularly need that spike. Also some people don't want to take in 70g of sugar at any time!

I use oats in my PWO shake. If anything they provide some long-lasting replenishment and extra calories! Plus they make the texture so much better :D:D
yes

waynis
02-09-2006, 11:34 AM
The combination of oats and whey create a adequate insulin spike. I'm not a fan of the high grams of dextrose because over time you may be creating potential to cause diabetes. Especially such large doses like 50-60 grams. Sound ridiculous to me.

gator
02-09-2006, 12:39 PM
The combination of oats and whey create a adequate insulin spike. I'm not a fan of the high grams of dextrose because over time you may be creating potential to cause diabetes. Especially such large doses like 50-60 grams. Sound ridiculous to me.

Evidence of your claims?

waynis
02-10-2006, 11:51 AM
Evidence of your claims?

I think the insulin spike post workout is highly overrated. If your eating every 2-3 hours your glycogen levels should be adequate to get you threw and recover from exercise. If your constantly creating these insulin spikes post workout over time it's possible to create insulin sensitivity.. Check out this great post on anabolicminds.com Look at bobo's post #7.

Quote from bobo

"The hormonal respons to exercise in itself in anti-catabolic in nature. This is also the time when nutrient signaling is at its highest so the need for such a drastic insulin spike is not necessary."

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/fat-loss/13539-cranberry-juice-pw.html?pp=30&highlight=cranberry

gator
02-10-2006, 01:04 PM
"a word about high or low-GI postworkout.. this is a topic that has sparked debate mainly from a finding by jentjens & colleagues showing the biphasic nature of glycogenesis (30-60min insulin-independent initial phase, followed by an insulin-dependent phase lasting several hours). this has led some sugarphobic folks to strive for low-GI foods postworkout thinking that high insulin concentrations aren't necessary for maximal glycogen replenishment. well, the fact remains that although heightened insulin concentrations don't ultimately increase the total AMOUNT of glycogen replenishment, they definitely increase the SPEED of glycogen replenishment. this is of obvious benefit when the unavoidable overlap of muscular work (and hence need for rapid replenishment) is considered. another thing that's overlooked by low-GI PW advocates (jeez, that's so ridiculous i can't believe i just typed it), is that the 30-60 minute non-insulin-dependent phase is an ideal timeframe to absorb high-GI carbs immediately ingested postworkout and have them present & ready to coincide with the insulin-depended phase of glycogenesis - where the majority of total glycogenesis takes place. as an added bit of trivia, high-GI carbs are sooooo darn good at replenishing glycogen, that even a delay of 2hrs was not observed by parkin's research team to compromise total amount of glycogen replenishment (by the way, this is not recommended, i'm just driving a point). hopefully everyone realizes the importance of manipulating insulin for all aspects of anabolism & anticatabolism. there's much much more to this facet of discussion, but we'll leave it at that."


Link: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=272067

They key point in all of that is "the fact remains that although heightened insulin concentrations don't ultimately increase the total AMOUNT of glycogen replenishment, they definitely increase the SPEED of glycogen replenishment" Which is extremly key after a very intense workout.

Edit: I would like to note that the guy who wrote that isn't some random guy getting internet research, he has 2 degrees in the field of nutrution.

brickt.
02-10-2006, 03:19 PM
I'm of the Low GI camp.

Never felt better, gains have never been leaner. 60g of sugar is overrated.

eps
02-10-2006, 03:24 PM
Heh, I use a coffee bean grinder to grind my oats. But I think the blender can handle it just fine too

pruneman
02-10-2006, 04:20 PM
"a word about high or low-GI postworkout.. this is a topic that has sparked debate mainly from a finding by jentjens & colleagues showing the biphasic nature of glycogenesis (30-60min insulin-independent initial phase, followed by an insulin-dependent phase lasting several hours). this has led some sugarphobic folks to strive for low-GI foods postworkout thinking that high insulin concentrations aren't necessary for maximal glycogen replenishment. well, the fact remains that although heightened insulin concentrations don't ultimately increase the total AMOUNT of glycogen replenishment, they definitely increase the SPEED of glycogen replenishment. this is of obvious benefit when the unavoidable overlap of muscular work (and hence need for rapid replenishment) is considered. another thing that's overlooked by low-GI PW advocates (jeez, that's so ridiculous i can't believe i just typed it), is that the 30-60 minute non-insulin-dependent phase is an ideal timeframe to absorb high-GI carbs immediately ingested postworkout and have them present & ready to coincide with the insulin-depended phase of glycogenesis - where the majority of total glycogenesis takes place. as an added bit of trivia, high-GI carbs are sooooo darn good at replenishing glycogen, that even a delay of 2hrs was not observed by parkin's research team to compromise total amount of glycogen replenishment (by the way, this is not recommended, i'm just driving a point). hopefully everyone realizes the importance of manipulating insulin for all aspects of anabolism & anticatabolism. there's much much more to this facet of discussion, but we'll leave it at that."


Link: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=272067

They key point in all of that is "the fact remains that although heightened insulin concentrations don't ultimately increase the total AMOUNT of glycogen replenishment, they definitely increase the SPEED of glycogen replenishment" Which is extremly key after a very intense workout.

Edit: I would like to note that the guy who wrote that isn't some random guy getting internet research, he has 2 degrees in the field of nutrution.

This does not address the concern for developing insulin resistance from consuming large amounts of sugar. I'm not sure whether or not there is any really important difference in recovery/replentishment using a hi GI versus a low GI carbohydrate post-workout. Personally, I use whole foods that are med/low GI (not that it matters to this discussion). I think that there is a real possibility of developing insulin resistance with prolonged intake of large quantities of hi GI CHO.

gator
02-10-2006, 07:25 PM
I think that there is a real possibility of developing insulin resistance with prolonged intake of large quantities of hi GI CHO.

Based on what? I think if you look at the whole article in that link I pasted he talkes about insulin resistance being a huge myth, there is no evidence of it.

Built
02-10-2006, 07:34 PM
As someone who has been dealing with IR for about 20 odd years, I can tell you anecdotally at least, based on a sample of one, that I handle carbohydrates a whole lot better now than I did when I was fat, blowing up, and on Metformin a few years back.

My feeling is that recomposition has made a huge impact on my ability to handle carbohydrate. Not only do I no longer take Metformin, I can consume a LOT more carbohydrate now than I could a few years ago.

If weight training, and being leaner and more muscular ISN'T what's driving this change, I'm all ears.

waynis
02-10-2006, 07:52 PM
As someone who has been dealing with IR for about 20 odd years, I can tell you anecdotally at least, based on a sample of one, that I handle carbohydrates a whole lot better now than I did when I was fat, blowing up, and on Metformin a few years back.

My feeling is that recomposition has made a huge impact on my ability to handle carbohydrate. Not only do I no longer take Metformin, I can consume a LOT more carbohydrate now than I could a few years ago.

If weight training, and being leaner and more muscular ISN'T what's driving this change, I'm all ears.

This could be because exercise itself decreases insulin sensitivity. This is why some diabetics are able to completly throw away their injections or medications and controll their blood sugar with exercise and diet alone. As far as simple carbs go.. do you avoid over consumption of them built? With the proper diet and continuous exercise you shouldn't have any issues with IR in the future hopefully. Also if you haven't already. Look into the mineral chromium. Supplementing with chromium could also decrease chance of diabetes.

Built
02-10-2006, 07:52 PM
I was running 10k 3x a week when I took metformin.

Nice try though.

waynis
02-10-2006, 08:30 PM
Based on what? I think if you look at the whole article in that link I pasted he talkes about insulin resistance being a huge myth, there is no evidence of it.

Could you paste that part cause I didn't see it on the first page. To quote him.


Dextrose & maltodextrin have traditionally been emphasized as ideal for postworkout because of their high-GI. however, i have issues with going pure dex for postworkout for a couple of reasons - and they have nothing to do with the threat of insulin resistance, because that whole scenario applies to a completely different population. first off, you can get some default dex within fruit or milk. secondly, pure dex has no micronutrient density, and i've said it before, antioxidant micronutrition is grossly under-emphasized whenever postworkout nutrition is discussed

He says how it has nothing to do with insulin resistance because that applies to a whole other population. That statement alone says he's aware of insulin resistance. My belief is you shouldn't have to wait till you develop insulin resistance to stop taking large amounts of dextrose post workout.

I firmly agree with him that pure dex is not a good idea. What's a good alternative to dex? Well honey. Honey is made up of 31 percent glucose and digests slower then dex. Also is packed with nutrients.:nod:

Built
02-10-2006, 08:41 PM
Honey is half fructose. A lousy choice - worse, in fact. And I'd hardly say it was PACKED with nutrients.

A simple check to the USDA nutient database will show you this. It has traces of micronutrients. It's mostly sugars.

waynis
02-10-2006, 10:14 PM
Honey is half fructose. A lousy choice - worse, in fact. And I'd hardly say it was PACKED with nutrients.

A simple check to the USDA nutient database will show you this. It has traces of micronutrients. It's mostly sugars.

better then straight dex was my point and more nutrients then many other sugar types. Even though it's half fructose , like i posted before it's around 31% glucose. It is just my opinion.. but saying a lousy choice I would strongly disagree with.

brickt.
02-10-2006, 11:11 PM
I'd say a lousy choice. A better option would be bananas; they actually contain quie a large amount of glucose compared to fructose.

Built
02-10-2006, 11:13 PM
Honey is pretty similar in composition to HFCS.

I stand by my assertion. Pre-workout, not such a big deal. Post - you're compromising your gains. Sorry.

The best at that time is glucose. Why use something sub optimal if you don't HAVE to?

Oh, and I usually pop my vitamin C post workout, if someone is addressing the anti-oxidant issue.

brickt.
02-10-2006, 11:24 PM
VitC and Green Tea over here, PWO.

Sidior
02-11-2006, 12:59 AM
VitC and Green Tea over here, PWO.

why green tea PWO? wouldn't that be better pre workout?

Built
02-11-2006, 01:09 AM
Antioxidants.

brickt.
02-11-2006, 01:13 AM
:withstupid

Anti-Oxidants to counter any Oxidants formed during training.

smalls
02-11-2006, 01:31 AM
If your seriously worrying about 60g of dextrose 4 or so times a week causing Insulin resistance problems your genetics (from a health perspective) must suck a fatty. Seriously people are we trying to get big or live till were 100 (ok some of you are trying to do both but I digress) People worry far too much about the little stuff. Although I will agree, as far as calories are the same, oats vs dex probably isnt going to be the deciding factor in putting on gobbs of muscle. 100+ grams dex/malto minimum postworkout for me, with another 100 gram oats/milk shake 60 minutes later.

And built, I would say the addition of muscle probably brought with it additional GLUT 4 receptors. They are responsible for non insulin mediated glucose transport during activity. I'm sure you know that, but that's my guess.

Spartacus
02-11-2006, 01:36 AM
oxidants *may have some benefit for the exercise response.

Built
02-11-2006, 11:19 AM
Thanks Smalls! I knew I was using glucose better, and I knew it was muscle, but the specifics of it is beyond my knowledge-base. Much obliged. <runs off to research glut 4 receptors>

smalls
02-11-2006, 11:23 AM
I just wrote this down in my journal.

02/10/06 Smalls knew 1% more about one topic than built did. hmmm I think that gets me a reward, lol. hmm, one thing from my college education finally came in handy in the semi-real world.

Hit me back when you find out some more stuff, i'm interested as well.

Built
02-11-2006, 11:24 AM
Don't kid yourself Smalls - I know a lot of this stuff from small multiple hits all over the internet. You've taken courses in it. I'm always appreciative of your that thar book larnin'.

McIrish
02-11-2006, 11:43 PM
hate to ask a dummm question, but what is the purpose of having antioxidants after a workout?

Oh, and back to the original thread for one second... if you put oats in a PW shake WITH banana, the banana gives it a great thick consistency and the oats won't sink to the bottom... cheers!

Built
02-12-2006, 01:32 AM
Free radical damage. Antioxidants counter this.
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/antioxidants.html

Spartacus
02-12-2006, 01:35 AM
the response to oxidation damage may be one of the benefits exercise provides though.

DAN13L
02-14-2006, 06:42 PM
I workout in the mornings in most instances one hour after I wake up. So I incorporate the oats that I can't have for breakfast into my whey shake.

Pre workout = 20g oats, one scoop whey
Post Workout = One scoop glucose powder, one scoop whey.


Works for me.

-D

Built
02-14-2006, 06:44 PM
Didn't you just post that you've stopped lifting?

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=75180

Hey guys,
Just thought i'd make a quick post about cutting. I'm using this method and getting some great results. I've lost in total about 40kgs using this method and haven't noticed signigicant loss in muscle size. I've lost strength due to the lack of strength training/weightlifting but I'm noticing veins for the first time running down my bicep.
When I first started cutting, I was continuing with my normal 4 day split workout. I found that controlling my calories was impossible because when I lift I eat like no tomorrow. I tried cardio but couldn't see a real effect.
What I did do however was alter my diet and stop lifting. I found that when I wasn't lifting or running, my body wouldn't have massive carb cravings. So i've been trudging along without lifting, but then decided that I may as well have one cheat day per week and do a full body workout.
For me, it's usually on Sunday. In the morning I have my PreWO shake, hit the gym, PostWO shake, lunch, rest, PreWO shake, gym again, PostWO shake. Im taking in a lot of calories on Sunday, but it helps me deal with the full body workout.
C/C's?
-D

lifter4life
02-14-2006, 07:34 PM
better then straight dex was my point and more nutrients then many other sugar types. Even though it's half fructose , like i posted before it's around 31% glucose. It is just my opinion.. but saying a lousy choice I would strongly disagree with.

yes more nutrients, but does it matter when the nutrients it contains are like half of one percent of your daily intake. Also, the whole point of a post workout shake is avoiding glycolysis, which is why people consume straight dextrose because it is glucose and doesn't need to be broken down. So faster consumption into the blood stream = larger insulin spike

Stackattack
02-15-2006, 02:05 AM
I also use oats instead of dextrose now. 80-100g of dextrose PWO was making me feel like ass in the hours following consumption. If you grind the oats in the blender when they're dry the become much finer, blend better, digest quicker and don't sink to the bottom as much.

brickt.
02-15-2006, 02:10 AM
I also use oats instead of dextrose now. 80-100g of dextrose PWO was making me feel like ass in the hours following consumption.

Exactly why I stopped the dex. :thumbup:

DAN13L
02-15-2006, 02:16 AM
I did stop lifting...That shake recipe is for when I do lift (once per week until cut like a statue). I'm not a fan of oil in a shake by the way. Last time I did that...well it wasn't pretty.

-D

brickt.
02-15-2006, 02:31 AM
Who the **** puts oil in their pwo shake??

Silverback
02-15-2006, 02:51 AM
Who the **** puts oil in their pwo shake??

Never post workout, in all my other shakes though, olive oil or flax.

I use oats, then have cranberry juice in my PWO shake. ****s me off when people try to make it a science with malto, dex, ratio's and timing. How about instead of worrying about your ratios, lift heavier than the previous week and consume enough cals to recover and grow.

bleughh!

ddegroff
02-15-2006, 10:44 AM
And built, I would say the addition of muscle probably brought with it additional GLUT 4 receptors. They are responsible for non insulin mediated glucose transport during activity. I'm sure you know that, but that's my guess.

I as told that Glut4 receptors are like doorways into the cell. When the cells need glucose they let it in. I have not heard that they actually transport the glucose to the cells they just capture it. I found this interesting article:

http://www.garvan.org.au/files/Institute-Science/Link1.pdf

This article talks about how Glut4 recptors are stimulated by insulin. Thought this would help the discussion.

Built
02-15-2006, 12:49 PM
Never post workout, in all my other shakes though, olive oil or flax.

I use oats, then have cranberry juice in my PWO shake. ****s me off when people try to make it a science with malto, dex, ratio's and timing. How about instead of worrying about your ratios, lift heavier than the previous week and consume enough cals to recover and grow.

bleughh!

Yeah, science is all icky and stuff. Bleah.

smalls
02-15-2006, 01:27 PM
I as told that Glut4 receptors are like doorways into the cell. When the cells need glucose they let it in. I have not heard that they actually transport the glucose to the cells they just capture it. I found this interesting article:




I'm sorry but the way that written is very confusing to me. The glut 4 receptors are usually not on the surface of the cell thus they cannot let glucose in. There are certain stimulus that set in motion the translocation of these GLUT 4 receptors to the surface of the cell at which time they actually allow or "tranport" glucose into the cell where it can then be used. This is independent of insulin, but insulin is also a large regulator of this process but is not necassary, that's the main difference--GLUT 4 receptors respond simply to muscular contraction. Also one of the main differences in the GLUT 4 receceptors and the other glucose receptors is that GLUT 4 are primarily found in skelatal and heart muscle tissue. GLUT 1 are also but dont respond to muscular contraction like GLUT 4.




Skeletal muscle is the major "sink" for removing excess glucose from the blood (and converting it into glycogen). In NIDDM, the patient's ability to remove glucose from the blood and convert it into glycogen may be only 20% of normal. This is called insulin resistance. Curiously, vigorous exercise seems to increase the expression of the glucose transporter (called GLUT-4) on skeletal muscle and this may explain why IDDM is more common in people who live sedentary lives.

This is from this article---http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Pancreas.html

Resistance Training Improves Insulin Signaling and Action in Skeletal Muscle.
Exercise & Sport Sciences Reviews. 34(1):42-46, January 2006.
Yaspelkis, Ben B. III
Abstract:
Resistance training can improve glucose transport in both normal and insulin-resistant skeletal muscle by enhancing the activation of the insulin signaling cascade and increasing GLUT-4 protein concentration. These training-induced alterations improve the quality of the skeletal muscle and can occur independent of significant increases in skeletal muscle mass.

(C)2006The Amercian College of Sports Medicine

I cant post the entire above study if anyone is interested.

Built
02-15-2006, 01:33 PM
That's awesome smalls!

I tolerate more carb now than I did when I was on Metformin a few years back, before I took up this sport.

It looks like this is why.

I'd love to read the whole study.

ericg
02-15-2006, 01:42 PM
study looks very interesting, especially im diabetic.

Built
02-15-2006, 01:44 PM
Type I or type II, ericg?

ddegroff
02-15-2006, 01:49 PM
Smalls - cool makes sense now. Post that hole article I would like to read it.

yet another reason to workout

smalls
02-15-2006, 02:02 PM
Sorry I gotta get in through my university's proxy server, yada yada. So i'll do it when I get back from legs. There's some good stuff out there but it's a difficult concept to understand especially since much of it isnt really understood 100% even in the scientists researching it.

ddegroff
02-15-2006, 02:06 PM
^^ sounds good, I have the same problem with articles I get through my school, good luck.

ericg
02-15-2006, 02:26 PM
Type I or type II, ericg?

Type I

Im still producing some insulin on my own, though its fading.

When I was first diagnosed by my PCP he said i was type 2, but after my visit with my Diabetologist he rediagnosed as type 1, since my cpeptide levels were low (and getting lower). A unique case since no one in my family has diabetes and I was just diagnosed a few years back (im 26). I was on Avandamet (Avandia/Metformin) and Glyburide for a while, but I have weaned off of them and now use Lantis (slow acting insulin) at night and Novolog (rapid acting) at meals.


Sorry I gotta get in through my university's proxy server, yada yada. So i'll do it when I get back from legs. There's some good stuff out there but it's a difficult concept to understand especially since much of it isnt really understood 100% even in the scientists researching it.

I am sure it will be over my head, ill give it a shot though.

Built
02-15-2006, 02:46 PM
ericg - that sucks! I wonder what made this happen? I've heard of a virus kicking out your pancreas - I wonder if this is what happened to you?

ericg
02-15-2006, 02:57 PM
built - I really have no idea. I know before i had symptoms i was pretty strict with my diet, eating clean 90% (fairly low carb as well) of the time for a year or so. then some personal things made me stop, and i pretty much ate everything i wanted which included a ton of sweets. not long after that i had the symptoms and was diagnosed. so i wonder if i hid the symptoms for a while with my diet, or if the sudden change in eating habits had anything to do with the development. i doubt it but it was weird timing. you said you were taking Metformin, are you diabetic?

Built
02-15-2006, 03:00 PM
I had IR, the whole syndrome X thing, weight gain, high triglycerides, freakish hunger. I was running 10ks at the time.

I turned it around with proper diet and heavy lifting. And I don't jog anymore.

brickt.
02-15-2006, 03:16 PM
Whenever I see middle aged, pleasantly plump woman running their jiggly asses off, I feel kinda empty. I KNOW I can help these people, if only they would listen... and if I wasn't so lazy.

Seriously, Built, how did you get started on "the right path." What was the next step up from the running? I know alot of people stumble upon bb.com as their starting point, but it seems you found another way?

Built
02-15-2006, 03:32 PM
I was totally desperate, actually. Went to my doc, asked him for some diet pills (again).

He told me to do Atkins.

I thought he was nuts - but I lost a bunch of weight on Atkins, and learned about insulin. It was a huge step for me.

At around the same time, my buddy at work offered to set me up on a three day a week lifting split, so I took him up on it. He came with me for a couple of days to show me the exercises, and I just stuck with it.

3 months later I asked him if I should be changing anything.

He was actually shocked that I kept going - you know how it is, you help set somebody up, and they don't keep going.

But I did.

So he gave me a few more splits over the next few years, changing it for me every few months.

I started reading up on TKD, CKD, NHE, hit a bunch of boards .... and eventually found Berardi, McDonald, Twin Peaks ... and figured out how to work carb cycling into my program.