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ederon
02-09-2006, 03:51 AM
Hi im really new to WBB, my intro was posted here
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?p=1297245#post1297245

i need help pretty bad. im 6'0 and for my first show i tried to get as ripped as i could. my conditioning couldn't have been better. which is not the problem now. when i competed i was told that for my height i need to put on alot more weight for my frame. <<<<(my problem!) im a hard gainer so its hard for me to put on weight at all. im trying to move up from middleweight to heavyweight, so my question is: should i just eat more? or change my workout schedule? (which is 5 days a week 1 day for every bodypart except for abs, calves every other day) Or lifestyle? Im going to post some pics of myself here
one of them was when i competed, i weighed in at 172 lbs and the other was before the contest about 2 weeks. This pictures were taking during Sept

Clifford Gillmore
02-09-2006, 04:48 AM
Eat more. But You look great there, aiming for about 200lbs would get you looking VERY solid. Congrats on the effort you have put in.

1r15h
02-09-2006, 06:48 AM
Good conditioning like you mentioned. I'd suggest eating more and increasing the weight to add some size then Im sure you already have the cutting part down to a T.

cphafner
02-09-2006, 06:52 AM
Your conditioning was good. It might be the timing of the pictures, but you could use more size on your back. I'm currently in the same situation. I competed last year, and need to add about 20 lbs onto my frame to move up. I'm taking this year off, hoping to add quality size, and then compiete next year. My main advice would be not to rush your gains, let them come. Keep doing what your doing, it worked so far.

KenT
02-09-2006, 09:29 AM
Pictures can be deceiving....

But based on what you've posted, your condition on stage isn't a whole lot better than in the photo from 2 weeks before -- which means that in trying to get "ripped", you mostly lost lean body mass. This is very common, especially among younger men (you look still young in your photos; apologies if that's offensive).

So......

Only compete as often as you need to in order to provide motivation and/or discipline. Every time you diet down, you lose some of the hard-won lean body mass because it hasn't had time to "mature" and truly become a part of your physique. And as a young bodybuilder, the lean body mass you lose will almost always be where you most recently gained it, and usually where you've found it the hardest to put on.

Don't deceive yourself when trying to put on size. As a hard-gainer, the flip side is you can look pretty good year-round because you tend to stay leaner. 8% bodyfat as measured by calipers testing should provide you plenty of cushion to add muscle; probably shouldn't go over 10% at the very most.

You'll find good info on the "sticky" posts on the site as to diet and routine.

Don't know what your schedule is like, but try to eat small meals every 2 - 3 hours. You can get really complicated, but basic supplements are a high-quality protein powder, a high dosage multi-vitamin, branch chain aminos, and L-glutamine.

On your structure, workouts are standard: compound movements (the basics) like bench (don't forget incline bench!), squats, leg press, hacksquats, all forms of rowing, deadlifts, etc.

As a judge for the NPC and the IFBB for over 20 years, I'd say you have a good structure, both skeletal and muscle that is well worth developing. See if you can find a competition with a novice category that has 3 weight classes, in which case the middleweight class will have a maximum of 187. Otherwise, find a novice competition and aim for the lightheavies which will have a max of 198.25 In either case, don't really worry about your weight -- train for how you look in the mirror and go into whatever class that results in.

For the next couple of years of competition, forget the notion of "ripped" -- that's fantasy among competitors, not judges. Get lean enough that the muscle structure is clearly visible with deepest possible separation between the muscle groups. Striations are not important; separation is. Instead of going for "ripped", try to hold as much mass as possible and go on stage with bodyfat (caliper tested) at under 2%. Over the long run, you will make more progress and place better in competitions than focusing on getting "ripped".

I fully understand that the preceding is full-on heresy as far as guys in the gym (and many on the message boards) are concerned -- and of course, I'm only a judge so what could I possibly know? :whiner: :scratch:

Good luck and stay with it. You've got a very good start and a really good shot at being very, very good.

KenT

galileo
02-09-2006, 10:08 AM
I'm just not sure how you could fail to have striations at under 2% bodyfat.

Mad Max
02-09-2006, 10:22 AM
I'm just not sure how you could fail to not be brain dead at under 2% bodyfat.

I do agree with Kent T about not worrying about getting ripped, ie striated all over. If you are natural then getting to 4% bf is going to be hell. In the mean time aim for 200lbs at 7% bf, then take it from there. I think you will probably have to go over 10% bf if you want to get to 200lbs anytime in the near future. I don't see any reason why you can not follow a normal bulk/cut cycle till you get to 200lbs at 7% bf, then do whatever it takes to get to the bf you were at in that pic (I'm guessing 5%).

Mik
02-09-2006, 10:31 AM
Under 2%??????????? What the

galileo
02-09-2006, 11:16 AM
I'm just not sure how you could fail to not be brain dead at under 2% bodyfat.

To be fair, calipers are often skewed by +2-4%, so I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

KenT
02-09-2006, 11:30 AM
All good responses, and thanks. No real disagreement from me.

I DO see competitors who consistently enter polygraph tested competitions, and urine tested competitions, who get down under 2% (calipers method) for competition. Usually, they are more mature, say late 20's or early 30's, but sometimes teens. Are they "really" natural? Don't know, can only relate the test results which usually aren't the full Olympic banned substance list but rather are for diuretics and steroids.

Some of them have striations, some don't, at under 2%.

4% is perfectly reasonable and will frequently place well and yes it is hell to get to for a natural bodybuilder without getting flat and over-depleted rather than "ripped". I wouldn't disagree with that as a target.

And yes, they are frequently brain dead on stage!!! :)

At 200 lbs and 10%, of course, lean body mass is 180. Given that your photos on stage were at 172 and noticeably over-depleted, and at 2 weeks out I'd guess you were probably 180(?), I don't think 200 @ 10% is all that unreasonable over the next year.

smalls
02-09-2006, 12:30 PM
I think you are mistaken as to what 2% actually means. People dont compete at under 2% total bodyfat. 2% subcutaneous fat? yes, but not total body fat, so your numbers are a little skewed.

You looked very good and you seem to already know the answer to your question. Eat more than you burn and continue to put on quality size over a long bulk. It's the only way it work.

Mad Max
02-09-2006, 12:34 PM
Ok Kent T, but just for the sake of accuracy, the last 3% of someone's bf is essential fatty cells in the brain and the spine. I guess those caliper tests were referring solely to superficial bf (bf under the skin or whatever it's called).

Mad Max
02-09-2006, 12:36 PM
smalls:subcutaneous fat, that's what I meant.

KenT
02-09-2006, 12:44 PM
Mad Max,

you are correct (as usual, at least the posts I've read from you) -- which is the reason I was specifying the caliper method since that only estimates subcutaneous and to some extent inter-muscular.

It's also proper to note that the specific number is probably less important than the trend over time, and that you're better off having the same person do it the same time of day/day of week every time for the trend to have some reliability. Different "operators" of the calipers can get significantly different readings depending on just where they take the readings, how they "pinch" the skin, etc. Likewise fluid retention over the daily cycle can have an impact on the readings, as can tanning, etc.

It is really and truly an "estimate"!

KenT

Shark
02-09-2006, 02:44 PM
Ederon. I think you look great in those pics. I would start a long slow clean bulk up to the 200 range lean. They evaluate your BF% at that point and see where you need to go from there.

ederon
02-09-2006, 05:04 PM
thanks for the replies everyone im just going over all the posts and trying to soak it all in like a sponge. My older brother who got me into this, told me not to compete for at least another 2 years, i just dont know bout the competing thing if i should or not. as mentioned if i get contest ready again, i could lean muscle mass. My bro does know alot about bodybuilding he has been for 7 years and was at 6'6 380lbs now 240lbs

Gabrielle
02-10-2006, 12:08 AM
you look good for a natural. I have seen naturals come in ripped to the bone, but that type of conditioning and muscle maturity takes time. Be patient and have fun

Relentless
02-10-2006, 11:31 AM
Hi im really new to WBB, my intro was posted here
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?p=1297245#post1297245

i need help pretty bad. im 6'0 and for my first show i tried to get as ripped as i could. my conditioning couldn't have been better. which is not the problem now. when i competed i was told that for my height i need to put on alot more weight for my frame. <<<<(my problem!) im a hard gainer so its hard for me to put on weight at all. im trying to move up from middleweight to heavyweight, so my question is: should i just eat more? or change my workout schedule? (which is 5 days a week 1 day for every bodypart except for abs, calves every other day) Or lifestyle? Im going to post some pics of myself here
one of them was when i competed, i weighed in at 172 lbs and the other was before the contest about 2 weeks. This pictures were taking during Sept

Sounds to me like you've answered your own question.
If you need to pack on more mass, eating more is clearly an important part of getting there.

What is your diet like?

ederon
02-10-2006, 12:16 PM
my diet started off pretty loose, but tightened up as i realized the deadline for the show was coming. Believe it or not making a "make believe" date for yourself like your getting ready for a show can help promote you to take serious action. I'd suggest something like "photo shoot" make it sound like a big deal, the day where a friend is going to take pictures of you. This way you can create a strategy, you have this many days for your "show" or "shoot" and you have to start dieting now!

so for me i believe i dieted to early about 4 months before the show, i started with having mostly chicken breasts, which im just sick to death of now, and had thin cut steaks twice a week to regain strength. the mornings were low carb protein shake, with oatmeal, and 2 pieces of fruit. my lunch and dinner pretty much the same chicken breast and oatmeal sometimes egg whites. there was nothing really to it. i believe it was my 45mins of cardio every morning before i ate which was hard cause my work was at 7am. yep 5am and running to catch the gym! after that i had my regular afternoon workout with my 30mins of cardio. and when i mean cardio i mean like rigorous cardio where your really sweating, doesnt have to be fast paced but i found switching cardio machine alot helped. stepmaster to eliptical etc..
but i didnt find the stationary bike very useful, really didnt do much. i could be on that thing for like 2 hours and not feel worn out. could be just me.

Built
02-10-2006, 12:29 PM
Hmmm… sounds to me like you relied upon cardio for too much of your caloric deficit - this can make you come in smooth and lose too much LBM, particularly as you really lean out.

Relentless
02-10-2006, 01:58 PM
Sounds to me like the #1 thing you need to do if you want to gain mass is to get religion about tracking what you're eating, and incrementally increase that as needed until you're gaining at what you feel is an acceptable rate.

Clearly you have the willpower to diet down for a show. The trick to gaining, as I've seen it among my hardgainer friends, is to learn how to eat like it's your job. Because it is.

I hae one friend who had to eat about 6000 calories a day to keep 240lbs on his 6'2" hardgainer frame. And that was a CLEAN and mostly WHOLE FOOD 6000 calories! Crazy!

Jinkies
02-10-2006, 02:12 PM
Change your workout to that of a powerlifting, train for strength and mass right now. Next time you get free time thats what id reccomend cause ur frame and abs look great but your arms and legs arent big enough. Some people use being natural as an excuse to why they lack in certain parts but i think with some heavy lifting and eating then working on cutting you would be formable.

ederon
02-10-2006, 10:29 PM
thanks again to everyone who took the time to reply to me, you guys (n girls) that make this forum are truly great people. i hope to take the advice and turn it to a more positive approach at the gym to train harder.

thanks again.

oskar