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View Full Version : Support and Insight Needed! Cutting then Bulking



SilverYello
02-09-2006, 06:47 PM
Hey all! I am new here to the forums. I really enjoy them. I have been perusing through them for the last couple of days. It is very exciting to see so much dedication and knowledge on one site. Here is my story:
My whole life I have always been just a tad overweight. No muscle. All my friends have usually been lean or stick and bones. Im sure some can relate with the whole swimsuit and pool thing. It also has been depressing because 90% of my summers are spent in and around the water with various activities.
Fall 2005 was my first semester in college. I was hitting the books and eating crap. When I got here in August 05 I weighed in at about 186lbs and 61. At thanksgiving I weighed in at 198lbs. I have a little electronic scale that supposedly sends impulses through your body checking your body fat. So at thanksgiving I was 198lbs and 23% bf, via the scale. I was pretty depressed and finally decided one night I was going to bust my ass, for the first time in my life! Between thanksgiving and Christmas I went from 198lbs to 194lbs. Then I took break off and just lived normally. I went up 1 lbs to 195lbs. I came back to school Jan 11th with a new attitude and a bottle of whey and caffeine free hydroxycut. So here is where it starts for my information: Since Jan 11th I have ridden the bike in the gym 7 miles a day for 20 minutes at 22mph. Then lifted for 50 minutes after that. Happy to say I am down to 185lbs now and 15%bf via the scale.
Here are my stats:
61
185lbs
15%bf
My goal:
To cut down to about 8%bf and then bulk. But never in my life have I ever thought about eating too much and lifting so hard. So the bulking will be hard for me, I assume.

Here is my question. I got from 195lbs to 185 lbs in about 5 weeks. Now I am sitting at 185lbs and not budging much. How can I continue to drop? I eat three meals a day and I am now taking hydroxycut hardcore. I figured I have pushed myself this far, why not keep going and reduce down to 8%bf and then become real lean after that? I know its not as easy as it sounds. My goal for this is about early June. Can it be done? Am I training too much? Eatting too little? (about ~2000cals a day)
Before I knew anything about cutting and bulking I figured I could reduce fat and build muscle. But now I know this isnt really possible. But surprisingly I have dropped fat and seeing more definition.
Training Stats Currently:
Sun-Sun
20 mins bike @ 22mph 7miles every other day along with other legs and shoulders
The days I dont bike I do 55mins of arms, chest, back.
Abs every day.

Thanks in advance for anything. :)

Built
02-09-2006, 06:54 PM
Hey all! I am new here to the forums. I really enjoy them. I have been perusing through them for the last couple of days. It is very exciting to see so much dedication and knowledge on one site. Here is my story:
My whole life I have always been just a tad overweight. No muscle. All my friends have usually been lean or stick and bones. Im sure some can relate with the whole swimsuit and pool thing. It also has been depressing because 90% of my summers are spent in and around the water with various activities.
Fall 2005 was my first semester in college. I was hitting the books and eating crap. When I got here in August 05 I weighed in at about 186lbs and 61. At thanksgiving I weighed in at 198lbs. I have a little electronic scale that supposedly sends impulses through your body checking your body fat. So at thanksgiving I was 198lbs and 23% bf, via the scale. I was pretty depressed and finally decided one night I was going to bust my ass, for the first time in my life! Between thanksgiving and Christmas I went from 198lbs to 194lbs. Then I took break off and just lived normally. I went up 1 lbs to 195lbs. I came back to school Jan 11th with a new attitude and a bottle of whey and caffeine free hydroxycut. So here is where it starts for my information: Since Jan 11th I have ridden the bike in the gym 7 miles a day for 20 minutes at 22mph. Then lifted for 50 minutes after that. Happy to say I am down to 185lbs now and 15%bf via the scale.
Hey - props for starting this!


Here are my stats:
61
185lbs
15%bf
My goal:
To cut down to about 8%bf and then bulk. But never in my life have I ever thought about eating too much and lifting so hard. So the bulking will be hard for me, I assume.

Here is my question. I got from 195lbs to 185 lbs in about 5 weeks. Now I am sitting at 185lbs and not budging much. How can I continue to drop? I eat three meals a day and I am now taking hydroxycut hardcore. I figured I have pushed myself this far, why not keep going and reduce down to 8%bf and then become real lean after that? I know its not as easy as it sounds. My goal for this is about early June. Can it be done? Am I training too much? Eatting too little? (about ~2000cals a day)
Before I knew anything about cutting and bulking I figured I could reduce fat and build muscle. But now I know this isnt really possible. But surprisingly I have dropped fat and seeing more definition.
Training Stats Currently:
Sun-Sun
20 mins bike @ 22mph 7miles every other day along with other legs and shoulders
The days I dont bike I do 55mins of arms, chest, back.
Abs every day.

Thanks in advance for anything. :)

Okay - couple suggestions.

First off - diet. Please go into www.fitday.com, set up an account and track what you're eating for a few days. This matters.

Second - please don't do any cardio before you lift. After is okay, or on a separate day, but not before.

Your cals sound a hair low, but they may be okay for you. My feeling is you're training a little too much, and possibly not lifting heavy enough (but with too much volume) - a common mistake.

What rep range are you using? What do you do for legs?

SilverYello
02-09-2006, 07:11 PM
Built, thanks for responding so quickly. I have read many of your posts. My heart rate went up substantially when I saw you cared for my cause. :D

a) I signed up for fitday on Tuesday I believe. I have tracked about 2 days worth of food. The link is in my sig, or my name there is SilverYello as well. Let me know what you think if you get a chance to check it out.
b)Thats big information for me. Last month I was doing 20 mins of cardio and then lifting for 50 mins. Now that I have seperate lift days I am seeing substantial increases. Sometimes on lift days now, I do cardio for 10 minutes after.
c)My cals may be low. I think I took in about 1400 today. Does eatting too few cals actually slow down metabolism? There isnt much of a healthy food choice here, so its hard to eat healthy quantity.

How do you mean too much volume? My dad (back in his prime) use to train hardcore and he is a doctor. But he hasnt been much insight due to always being busy and he thinks Im just fine as I am. "I should be concentrating on school" :D . He told me I should go slow to build faster. So when I lift, for example arms, I do 3-5 sets of 12-16 reps with low weights,(40-60lbs) and I go very slowly. Up 1-2-3 down 1-2-3. (Im pretty new to training, but I have taken gym II in hs so I know how to properly lift) Almost every other exercise is 3-5 sets at anywhere from 10-18reps. Usually increasing weight with sets.

Legs I just bike hardcore untill I cant bike anymore. Then I do a few quad curls. Thats about it for legs.
Thanks Again:D

Built
02-09-2006, 07:17 PM
Okay - the two big questions I see here are (a)"are my cals too low?" and (b)"is my training wrong?".

(a) Yes. And going too low means you will drop too much muscle along with the fat.

(b) Yes. You are doing high reps. If high reps worked, you'd see a lot of ripped soccer moms getting out of toning class at the community centre.

Switch to low rep training - as heavy as you can, in sets of less than 6 reps. Rest as long as you need to between sets - this is NOT iron cardio.

In a caloric deficit, your body wants to drop muscle (because it costs too much to run) and preserve fat (so you survive the whole "famine"). High rep training will do nothing to convince your body to hang onto LBM. Heavy low rep training won't build endurance, but it WILL send your body the signal that it must risk manage the muscle because darned if you don't just keep USING it!

Read this - it'll help tell you why.
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459419
and this
http://www.ruggedmag.com/index.php?type=Article&i=3&a=8

Built
02-09-2006, 07:19 PM
And you need to learn how to do AFT squats and proper deadlifts.

Leg curls after a bike ride doesn't count as a leg workout - that's just cardio.

SilverYello
02-09-2006, 07:26 PM
AFT? I can squat if you mean the bar, weights and a rack. Last time about 150lbs and 6-8reps.
Use to deadlift in gym. My dad about 5 years ago had his Lower back slip a disk. And it use to go out all the time. Mine use to hurt after dead lifts a tremendous amount. So possibly something else? Or wear a weight belt and work on form?

So your saying for example curls, (which I can do) 70lbs at 6reps? Will this rip faster? That would also cut down on workout time and leave time for more dimensions of lifting. I will read those articles now.

Built
02-09-2006, 07:30 PM
If deads hurt your back, your form was out OR you were lifting too heavy for you.

Squats AFT means "ass to floor" - a bit of hyperbole, but basically, as low as you can go (and certainly below parallel).

Pick whatever weight you can just barely squeak out 6 reps on. Use this for all of your heavy compound lifts. Start there.

SilverYello
02-09-2006, 07:38 PM
Thanks. One last question for my lift tomorrow. Whatever weight I can squeak out 6 reps on for 3-5 sets? Or increase weight? Like 60lbs, 6reps, 3 times? Thanks again. Ill let you know how it all works out for me and my fitday thing after I log a week or so.

Built
02-09-2006, 07:40 PM
I don't know if I understand the question.

I like to do 5x5 for my heavy compounds (squats, deads, arnies, bench, chins) and 3x8 for accessory work (flyes, standing side laterals, leg curls, leg extensions) if I bother with 'em.

I sometimes do 5x5 for biceps too, although with heavy chins and rowing exercises, you may not find direct arm work necessary at all.

In all cases, as heavy as you can go, given the rep range.

Does this help?

SilverYello
02-09-2006, 08:00 PM
So lets say I do upper body tomorrow. Curls, tricep extension, flyes, etc.

Your saying:
3sets x 8 reps at the highest weight possible to sustain 3 sets at 8 reps?

I was asking: set 1 50lbs 8reps, set 2 60lbs 8 reps, set 3 70lbs 8 reps?
Or just 3 sets at 60lbs?

muscleup
02-09-2006, 09:21 PM
Would you mind posting your current training split?
Days, sets, reps & lifts.

You mentioned isolation only type lifts in your example of "upper body day", & I think it would be beneficial for you to let us see your full routine before you worry about whether or not you should be pyramiding your weights or keeping them the same through out 3 sets. You can post it in the Bodybuilding forum if you want extensive feedback on it.

SilverYello
02-11-2006, 12:43 AM
Yea sorry no problem. As of today:
Abs every day.

Sun- Bicep Curl 5x6 (60lbs)
Tricep Extension 4x8 (35-40lbs)
Flyes 4x8 (cybex machine 70-90lbs)
Lat Pulls 4x8(80-100lbs)
(sometimes 10-15 min cardio

Mon- Deltoids 3x8 (all kinds)
Leg Curl and Leg Press
Calve Raises
(20 mins on bike)

Tues-Bicep Curl 5x6 (60lbs)
Tricep Extension 4x8 (35-40lbs)
Flyes 4x8 (cybex machine 70-90lbs)
Lat Pulls 4x8(80-100lbs)
(sometimes 10-15 min cardio)

Weds-Deltoids 3x8 (all kinds)
Leg Curl and Leg Press
Calve Raises
(20 mins on bike)

Thrs-Bicep Curl 5x6 (60lbs)
Tricep Extension 4x8 (35-40lbs)
Flyes 4x8 (cybex machine 70-90lbs)
Lat Pulls 4x8(80-100lbs)
(sometimes 10-15 min cardio)

Fri-Deltoids 3x8 (all kinds)
Leg Curl and Leg Press
Calve Raises
(20 mins on bike)

Sat-Bicep Curl 5x6 (60lbs)
Tricep Extension 4x8 (35-40lbs)
Flyes 4x8 (cybex machine 70-90lbs)
Lat Pulls 4x8(80-100lbs)
(sometimes 10-15 min cardio)

I'm having a real hard time breaking 1400 calories every day. I think that may be a big problem.

Built
02-11-2006, 01:08 AM
Yea sorry no problem. As of today:
Abs every day.
Not good.
Once a week is more than sufficient.
A few weighted sets, just like any other muscle.



Sun- Bicep Curl 5x6 (60lbs)
Tricep Extension 4x8 (35-40lbs)
Flyes 4x8 (cybex machine 70-90lbs)
Lat Pulls 4x8(80-100lbs)
(sometimes 10-15 min cardio)


Mon- Deltoids 3x8 (all kinds)
Leg Curl and Leg Press
Calve Raises
(20 mins on bike)

Tues-Bicep Curl 5x6 (60lbs)
Tricep Extension 4x8 (35-40lbs)
Flyes 4x8 (cybex machine 70-90lbs)
Lat Pulls 4x8(80-100lbs)
(sometimes 10-15 min cardio)

Weds-Deltoids 3x8 (all kinds)
Leg Curl and Leg Press
Calve Raises
(20 mins on bike)

Thrs-Bicep Curl 5x6 (60lbs)
Tricep Extension 4x8 (35-40lbs)
Flyes 4x8 (cybex machine 70-90lbs)
Lat Pulls 4x8(80-100lbs)
(sometimes 10-15 min cardio)

Fri-Deltoids 3x8 (all kinds)
Leg Curl and Leg Press
Calve Raises
(20 mins on bike)

Sat-Bicep Curl 5x6 (60lbs)
Tricep Extension 4x8 (35-40lbs)
Flyes 4x8 (cybex machine 70-90lbs)
Lat Pulls 4x8(80-100lbs)
(sometimes 10-15 min cardio)

I'm having a real hard time breaking 1400 calories every day. I think that may be a big problem.

OOooooh... dear ... your routine, I'm sorry to say, well... um...

Okay, I'll just say it - it blows. Too much concentration work, no heavy compounds - I'm not seeing bench, Arnies, Millies, Chins, Rows, Deads...

And 1400 cals are starvation camp rations.

Why so low?

SilverYello
02-11-2006, 09:27 AM
Hm, I do bench sometimes. Forgot and left that out. Sometimes bar, sometimes freeweights, sometimes cybex machine. Kind of embarassing but I guess I need to do some research because I don't know what an arnies,millies, or chins are.

1400cals? The food here blows. I usually have an omlet with yogurt and fruit for breakfast.(that counts as one meal plan) Or I have two single serve cerals(coca puffs) but that tends to be a **** load of carbs. Lunch is either a spinch turkey wrap/or chicken salad with yogurt and yogurt(or baked lays) and dinner is usually one of lunches or I go to the commons buffet and try to pick around the bad stuff they have there. The have salad bar, usually a few veggies, 3 different fruits, sometimes a type of meat or fish, and pasta of some sort. And Im too broke to go to the store to buy substiancial stuff. I eat carrots at night for snack. Anyone see anything that could help? They have hamburgers, grilled chicken sandwich, and chiken fingers. But from my experience that made me fat. :(

pruneman
02-11-2006, 09:48 AM
check out the stickies and use the search function. There's a lot of information on this site...just got to look around and find it.

SilverYello
02-11-2006, 10:07 AM
check out the stickies and use the search function. There's a lot of information on this site...just got to look around and find it.

Thanks! Ya I plan to. Just was quick replying so I could get more comments.

IronJay
02-11-2006, 11:26 AM
Arnies... Arnold Press right?

Built
02-11-2006, 11:33 AM
Arnies = Arnold press, correct.

Yello, track your food on www.fitday.com, and fiddle with the amounts of different foods until you're getting in enough protein, fat, and calories.

KingOftheWorld
02-11-2006, 12:42 PM
Woah waoh woah! Slow down there fella. Let's look at this intellectually. First of all, 195 lbs for 6 ft 1 is not fat. That's not a terrible weight to be at. If you feel a little flabby, then just turn some of the fat into muscle. I think you're being a bit drastic trying to lose so much weight. You're 6 ft 1, meaning you are a pretty big guy with a good height. You shouldn't worry so much (especially at first) about being so precise in calories and all of these insane lifting plans. Just start off cutting out the junk food and beginning a moderate weight lifting routine. What will most likely happen if you're so detail oriented is you won't see the results and as a result you'll immediately give up. Just start slowly is what I am saying. This should be a lifelong commitment and not some fad of the week type deal. This is just one guy's opinion, afterall, take it as you may.

KingOftheWorld
02-11-2006, 12:45 PM
Besides, eating 1400 calories is just going to mess everything up. Read the articles around here about how to eat. Just eat more meals a day, that will keep your metabolism up and your body won't hit those valleys of nothingness throughout the day.You'll find yourself with more energy and you'll be less likely to break your diet and eat garbage.

SilverYello
02-11-2006, 12:46 PM
Woah waoh woah! Slow down there fella. Let's look at this intellectually. First of all, 195 lbs for 6 ft 1 is not fat. That's not a terrible weight to be at. If you feel a little flabby, then just turn some of the fat into muscle. I think you're being a bit drastic trying to lose so much weight. You're 6 ft 1, meaning you are a pretty big guy with a good height. You shouldn't worry so much (especially at first) about being so precise in calories and all of these insane lifting plans. Just start off cutting out the junk food and beginning a moderate weight lifting routine. What will most likely happen if you're so detail oriented is you won't see the results and as a result you'll immediately give up. Just start slowly is what I am saying. This should be a lifelong commitment and not some fad of the week type deal. This is just one guy's opinion, afterall, take it as you may.


Thanks. Actually I did do that last Nov 05. Cut out all the burgers and chilli cheese fries. Started eating healthy and just riding a bike in the gym. Helped a decent amount. I agree with what your saying. And I do plan on making it life long. I was going at a slow and steady pace, but mid June is starting to creep up on us. And I want to get a little more strict in diet and more time efficient in my workouts. Couldnt hurt?

SilverYello
02-11-2006, 12:47 PM
wish I could eat more meals. Im ona predetermined meal plan for school here. Im going to return to work next week so I can get money to start eatting more.

SilverYello
02-11-2006, 03:49 PM
Just got back from the gym. Had one of the trainers show me what an Arnie Press was; he suggested I started with 20lbs till I got the hang of it. I did 2x9 because it was the end of my session. It sure does work a lot of muscles!! I like it a lot.

Built
02-11-2006, 05:05 PM
Arnies are the shiznits.