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DAN13L
02-21-2006, 07:53 PM
Hey guys,

Just a few things I have been thinking of lately. I've been doing a lot of research into nutrition. This, and my own efforts to cut down another 10kg have lead to some weird results.

My cut so far has been successful, but this last 10kg is being VERY stubborn and not budging. I've restricted my calories in the sense that Fitday calculated that I burn 2, 905 calories per day. At present, I have been consuming between 1, 700 and 2, 200 per day for the last month. My bodyweight has not decreased. Initially I thought that since I am eating below my maintenance level and lifting, i'm building muscle mass as well as decreasing my bodyfat levels. I subsequently wanted to test this out, and have stopped lifting. My weight is still 86.5kg, the same it's been for the last month.

I was talking to a friend who is a nutritionalist/pharmacist, he told me that I'm thinking too much economics and not enough biology. He has suggested that rather than count my calories, I should focus on consuming equal amounts of carbs and protein and try to get a few fats in here and there. I always thought that I should be avoiding hi G.I carbs and opting for low G.I, but he told me it doesn't matter since it burns slow anyway, it'll still be stored. His main point was that the human bodys number one goal is survival.

What are your opinions on this?

Built
02-21-2006, 08:17 PM
I think you're confused in your approach.

If you put on muscle while dropping fat and your bodyweight doesn't change - it's not a cut, it's just newbie gains or really good fortune.

You can't calculate maintenance calories - you measure them by tracking on fitday for a while.

If your maintenance calories were actually 2900 a day and you dropped down below 2300, you've dropped by more than 20% below maintenace. You've probably gone too low for too long and lowered your metabolic rate. You should probably consider eating at about 100 calories over what you are right now for a week, then another 100, then another ... lifting heavy and building your metabolism back up before cutting (properly!) again.

Keeping a "ratio" of carb to fat is about as meaningful as measuring your thumb to tell how tall you are.

"I always thought that I should be avoiding hi G.I carbs and opting for low G.I, but he told me it doesn't matter since it burns slow anyway, it'll still be stored."

Huh?

What was your workout regimen like while you've been cutting? Please describe it in detail.

And what was the macronutriet breakdown of your diet (grams of protein, carb and fat)?

Fenrir
02-22-2006, 06:09 AM
damn girl, u know you stuff don't u!:study:

DAN13L
02-22-2006, 08:40 AM
I think you're confused in your approach.

If you put on muscle while dropping fat and your bodyweight doesn't change - it's not a cut, it's just newbie gains or really good fortune.

You can't calculate maintenance calories - you measure them by tracking on fitday for a while.

If your maintenance calories were actually 2900 a day and you dropped down below 2300, you've dropped by more than 20% below maintenace. You've probably gone too low for too long and lowered your metabolic rate. You should probably consider eating at about 100 calories over what you are right now for a week, then another 100, then another ... lifting heavy and building your metabolism back up before cutting (properly!) again.

Keeping a "ratio" of carb to fat is about as meaningful as measuring your thumb to tell how tall you are.

"I always thought that I should be avoiding hi G.I carbs and opting for low G.I, but he told me it doesn't matter since it burns slow anyway, it'll still be stored."

Huh?

What was your workout regimen like while you've been cutting? Please describe it in detail.

And what was the macronutriet breakdown of your diet (grams of protein, carb and fat)?

Ok, here's as much information as I can possibly muster at 2:30am.

My cutting workout regimen to begin with:
Midday - wakeup, breakfast. Whilst cutting, breakfast consists of weetbix w/ skim milk. This totals to about 227 Calories according to the labels. 4g Fat, 33g Carbs, 12g Protein.

1pm - Preworkout shake. I use VP2 by AST, so there's 28g Protein and another 100 cals.

1:30 I'll be at the gym. My workout consists of a 4 day split:
-Day1: Chest + Biceps
-Day2: Legs
-Day3: Shoulders + Triceps
-Day4: Back
Forearms + abs get thrown in whenever I can muster the time. I do deads so I don't think abs is a major problem.

2:30pm - Postworkout shake. Protein + Glucose so thats 28g Protein, 15g Carb so roughly 150cals.

5pm - time for lunch (albeit a bit late), usually consists of steamed vegetables and chicken or tuna. Maybe a slice of wholemeal bread depending on hunger levels. So let's take the one cup of broccoli, 200grams of chicken/tuna plus the bread, we now have roughly 300cals of which 47g protein, 3g fat, 15ish grams of carbs

9-10pm is din dins, usually eating out in which case it's a grilled chicken fillet or steak with brocolli, cauliflower or salad. 350ish cals.

The average day for me in terms of Macro in terms of grams is roughly 150, 150, 40, (P, C, F).

ddegroff
02-22-2006, 09:00 AM
w/ what you said there i would say your macro's look good but, you need more fat and protein. I really have no idea how much you weigh so thats all a guess.

galileo
02-22-2006, 09:03 AM
Raise your calories a little and get in a solid refeed. There are studies showing that your metabolism can't drop more than 10% below your basal limit from a deficit, unless you have a hormone/thyroid issue. Don't overthink your diet.

DoUgL@S
02-22-2006, 09:36 AM
Just add a little to Built's already informative post.

You were designed to survive. Biologically speaking, your eating habits trigger very specific responses. If you under eat your body will slowdown your metabolism so that you can survive with lower calories. If you eat infrequently your body will be primed to store fat whenever you do eat. If you eat frequently then you will raise your metabolism, because your body realizes there is plenty of food and does not need to alter its function to survive.

Everyone is different, so as has been stated already, you need to track your calories to find your maintenance levels. Then you can adjust a necessary.

eatit
02-22-2006, 09:42 AM
count your calories! Count your macros!

Your friends advice was right so much in that if you consume an equal ammount of protein and carbs with 1 gram of protein per 1 pound lbm as your guide then of course you're going to lose weight because you'll be well under maintenance (even with a "few grams of fat here and there"). But in the end it all comes down to calories. Also weight is not a good measure of how much body fat you are losing. Use the mirror or calipers as your guide.

Also i wouldn't recommend using fitdays guidelines on what your actual maintenance is, that is something that can only be determined with personal experimentation and even then it fluctuates constantly based on what your body weight is.

If you're really stuck, take a week off, redesign your diet, and start over.

Vapour Trails
02-22-2006, 09:51 AM
Drop your carbs to extremely low levels. Your cutting diet should be largely protein and fat. Take something (EC) to keep your metabolism moving.

Holto
02-22-2006, 10:03 AM
Drop your carbs to extremely low levels.

Care to explain?



Your cutting diet should be largely protein and fat.

Care to explain?



Take something (EC) to keep your metabolism moving.

Couldn't agree more.

Built
02-22-2006, 02:24 PM
Ok, here's as much information as I can possibly muster at 2:30am.

My cutting workout regimen to begin with:
Midday - wakeup, breakfast. Whilst cutting, breakfast consists of weetbix w/ skim milk. This totals to about 227 Calories according to the labels. 4g Fat, 33g Carbs, 12g Protein.
Not enough protein, not enough fat. Not enough calories, really.




1pm - Preworkout shake. I use VP2 by AST, so there's 28g Protein and another 100 cals.

1:30 I'll be at the gym. My workout consists of a 4 day split:
-Day1: Chest + Biceps
-Day2: Legs
-Day3: Shoulders + Triceps
-Day4: Back
Forearms + abs get thrown in whenever I can muster the time. I do deads so I don't think abs is a major problem.
Split looks fine. What rep range are you using?




2:30pm - Postworkout shake. Protein + Glucose so thats 28g Protein, 15g Carb so roughly 150cals.
Good




5pm - time for lunch (albeit a bit late), usually consists of steamed vegetables and chicken or tuna. Maybe a slice of wholemeal bread depending on hunger levels.
Too long to wait for lunch. You need some starch in this meal if it's a workout day.


So let's take the one cup of broccoli, 200grams of chicken/tuna plus the bread, we now have roughly 300cals of which 47g protein, 3g fat, 15ish grams of carbs

9-10pm is din dins, usually eating out in which case it's a grilled chicken fillet or steak with brocolli, cauliflower or salad. 350ish cals.
You need more fat in this meal.




The average day for me in terms of Macro in terms of grams is roughly 150, 150, 40, (P, C, F).

Aim for no lower than a gram of protein per pound LBM, and no lower than half a gram of fat per pound LBM. Read the cutting post linked to in my sig.

Vapour Trails
02-22-2006, 03:25 PM
Care to explain?


Care to explain?



Couldn't agree more.

It causes a shift towards fat burning. Last year a study came out in which two groups consumed the same number of calories, but one group ate low carb the other ate low fat. The low carb group lost more weight. It's not hard to imagine why. Lyle McDonald recommended that to rid yourself of stubborn fat, reduce carbs to 20% or less of total cals.

If you are eating low carb, where else are your cals going to come from? The role of protein is obvious.

ddegroff
02-22-2006, 03:56 PM
It causes a shift towards fat burning. Last year a study came out in which two groups consumed the same number of calories, but one group ate low carb the other ate low fat. The low carb group lost more weight. It's not hard to imagine why. Lyle McDonald recommended that to rid yourself of stubborn fat, reduce carbs to 20% or less of total cals.

If you are eating low carb, where else are your cals going to come from? The role of protein is obvious.

thats funny, i read a study like that, that said low carb does lose more weight after 6months. then after a year the low cal group had lost just as much weight.

brickt.
02-22-2006, 04:02 PM
It causes a shift towards fat burning. Last year a study came out in which two groups consumed the same number of calories, but one group ate low carb the other ate low fat. The low carb group lost more weight. It's not hard to imagine why. Lyle McDonald recommended that to rid yourself of stubborn fat, reduce carbs to 20% or less of total cals.

If you are eating low carb, where else are your cals going to come from? The role of protein is obvious.

Just to expand on what was said, carbs stimulate the secretion of insulin in your body.

Your body cannot burn fat when there's insulin present, so it goes without saying that eating less carbs = less insulin = more fat burning.

eatit
02-22-2006, 05:09 PM
ehhhh, you can get great results cutting on simply a lower calorie diet. Personally i cut out everything but protein and like doing something along the lines of a PSMF. But the bottom line is do what works for you. If going on a low carb diet makes you freak out, cheat then binge eat the increased fat loss is negated.

A lot of people tend to think that there's a single solution to the weight loss dilema totally over looking the fact that all that is needed for weight loss is a caloric deficit and everything beyond that is more or less trivial. (assuming protein is in check)

Holto
02-22-2006, 06:10 PM
It causes a shift towards fat burning. Last year a study came out in which two groups consumed the same number of calories, but one group ate low carb the other ate low fat. The low carb group lost more weight.

Link?

Your body loses fat to rectify an energy deficit. You're not creating a larger energy deficit by eating less carbs. So unless it increases your energy expenditure you will lose the same amount of fat.

Built
02-22-2006, 07:00 PM
It IS, however, a WHOLE LOT EASIER to eat lower calorie if you get more of your calories from protein and fat, and less from carbohydrate, for me anyway.

eatit
02-22-2006, 08:49 PM
I think this:


for me anyway.

is the key. It's all personal

Holto
02-23-2006, 10:48 AM
Yes but this is beside the point. My point is that going low carb will not accelerate fat loss. It may increase compliance (as in Built's case) and that is a good thing.

There is a reason why Atkins has dropped off in popularity.

Most of the studies that show the low carb group losing more weight don't even analyze bodyfat %. They go by total weight and they could have easily lost lean mass & water. We will never now.

I have never seen a legit study done on this. If anybody has one please post
it.

Holto
02-23-2006, 10:50 AM
Your body cannot burn fat when there's insulin present, so it goes without saying that eating less carbs = less insulin = more fat burning.

Your body can convert insulin to fat. Presto. Fat burning back in action.

Also, if I'm not mistaken blood insulin never goes to zero.

DoUgL@S
02-23-2006, 12:37 PM
Your body can convert insulin to fat. Presto. Fat burning back in action.

Also, if I'm not mistaken blood insulin never goes to zero.

Please explain 1st statement. How does converting insulin to fat turn on fat burning?

Insulin is a protein so it can technically be converted to fat (if you are above maintenace), but the effect is negligible unless you are over expressing it at some extremely high amount. You would have other issues before insulin --> fat becomes a concern.

THere is always a basal level of insulin your blood.

Davidelmo
02-23-2006, 02:18 PM
I'm very much questioning your friends suggestions.

Why equal carbs and protein? Does this magic ratio yield the key to fat burning somehow?

Why fats squeezed in here and there? Does he know that they are essential for the proper functioning of your body?

Also, start the lifting again. What's wrong with more muscle? It doesn't matter that much what the scales say does it? So what if your weight doesn't change if you lose fat?

Holto
02-24-2006, 04:26 PM
Please explain 1st statement. How does converting insulin to fat turn on fat burning?

Someone poster earlier that insulin prevents burning of fat.

I'm stating that the body has a constant level of insulin so it cannot *prevent* fat burning as was implied.

I'm not saying it dosen't have an effect on the rate of fat burning.

brickt.
02-24-2006, 05:25 PM
Let me rephrase.

The more insulin that is present, the less fat burning that can simultaniously occur.

Holto
02-24-2006, 05:45 PM
Gotcha.