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View Full Version : built, so eating protein before a workout reduces energy???



WildCard
03-01-2006, 11:24 PM
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/casi2.htm

I asked you in a previous thread why eat protein before a workout as it does not increase energy but takes up calories and you mentioned you do it because you eat protein with every meal.

I never ate protein before my workout because I figured that it was of no use at that time.

well, I found this very well written article that says that protein actually slows the absorption of carbs. IMO, this is not good when one's goal is to have maximum energy for a workout by introducing fast acting carbs like dextrose into the body.

here is an excerpt
1) The carbs enter the bloodstream at a slower rate so that insulin levels don't reach a high peak.

When the carbs hit your oral mucous membrane, your salivary glands begin to secrete saliva which contains the alpha amylase called "ptyalin", a digestive enzyme that begin to transform starch into simple sugars.

This enzyme once mixed with the food containing carbohydrates continues its digestion up until it reaches the stomach. If PH in the stomach is very low because of HCL secretion induced by protein consumption, the alpha amylase enzyme digestion stops and thus carbs enteric digestion will be slower and their bloodstream entrance will be slower too. This is why it is better to consume proteins plus carbs at each meal for not eliciting a harsh insulin response.


so, what I am reading from this, is that if my goal is to create an harsh insulin response, where my body takes up all the available carbs so I can have explosive workouts, like I have been having, what I really should do is to take dextrose and nothing else right before a workout.

what are your thoughts on this?

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
03-01-2006, 11:47 PM
Protein slows the digestion of food. It will lengthen the time for insulin response to initiate. So it's better to get protein after your workout to aid in protein synthesis (within an hour is a good time to take a post-workout meal/shake). Carbs before...carbs/protein after. It doesn't really make THAT big of a deal, but since you're getting technical about it, hold the protein for post-workout.

WildCard
03-01-2006, 11:55 PM
Protein slows the digestion of food. It will lengthen the time for insulin response to initiate. So it's better to get protein after your workout to aid in protein synthesis (within an hour is a good time to take a post-workout meal/shake). Carbs before...carbs/protein after. It doesn't really make THAT big of a deal, but since you're getting technical about it, hold the protein for post-workout.

its not a big deal, but I just wanted to make sure everything was clear. I see that by eating only carbs pre workout, one has more energy available during the workout, facilitating the ability to lift more weight, and maybe go more reps. You and I are saying the same thing.

BTW, did you know that it take dextrose only 15 minutes to reach the blood stream, compared to as long as 4 hours for some other carbs? WOW

Built
03-02-2006, 01:39 AM
Coolios.

I do NOT know enough about this stuff - the way I eat is partially based on stuff I've read by Berardi, McD, Erik Ledin, Joel Marion... and partially based on my own personal comfort.

I don't like to train on a full stomach - I try to wait 1-2 hours after a solid meal of protein and carb before lifting, sip dilute whey and dex during, and a solid protein and carb meal after. If I eat carbs at any other time during the day, they just make me too damned hungry.

Very cool to know about the dextrose only taking 15 minutes.

Thanks wild.

smalls
03-02-2006, 01:44 AM
its not a big deal, but I just wanted to make sure everything was clear. I see that by eating only carbs pre workout, one has more energy available during the workout, facilitating the ability to lift more weight, and maybe go more reps. You and I are saying the same thing.

BTW, did you know that it take dextrose only 15 minutes to reach the blood stream, compared to as long as 4 hours for some other carbs? WOW


Do you understand how insulin works. Why do you think that minizing insulin is going to reduce the amount of available carbs, especially when we are talking about one single meal pre-workout. Does it matter how many meals you have had before your workout, or how your total diet looks? YES.


Most people here are not working off what they just ate bro. It doesnt work in that cut'n'dry direct process.


In short it wont matter. Not a little, not a tiny bit, not at all. It wont matter.

Built
03-02-2006, 01:46 AM
Thanks smalls - I think a lot of these studies fail to consider the way most of us eat, and the fact that most of us will have eaten several meals before we hit the gym, only to eat several more after.

smalls
03-02-2006, 01:50 AM
Agreed. I also realize I came off as a prick in that post. I just get annoyed when people fail to see the big pic, plus I've gotta stop my bulk soon so i'm a cranky ******. Even if you eat one meal then go train your still most likely utilizing glycogen from previous meals. Especially if your eating over maintenance as total cals plays a big role in this type of thing.

Also the digestion of dexrose is going to be impeded by the other things you have eaten so the timing is most likely going to be different unless you havent eaten in like 12+ hours and drink it with water, which would lick em.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
03-02-2006, 02:13 AM
The only thing I care about is the timing of meals. I eat by the clock and I time my meals accordingly depending on when I'm going to work out. I usually eat 1-1.5 hours prior to lifting. I'll load on carbs and throw in some protein for a pre-workout shake/meal.



Agreed. I also realize I came off as a prick in that post.No worries.



Even if you eat one meal then go train your still most likely utilizing glycogen from previous meals.Yes, as long as you're not waiting 10 hours between meals. The liver/muscles can store quite a bit of glycogen throughout the day.

pruneman
03-02-2006, 05:25 AM
1) The carbs enter the bloodstream at a slower rate so that insulin levels don't reach a high peak.

When the carbs hit your oral mucous membrane, your salivary glands begin to secrete saliva which contains the alpha amylase called "ptyalin", a digestive enzyme that begin to transform starch into simple sugars.

This enzyme once mixed with the food containing carbohydrates continues its digestion up until it reaches the stomach. If PH in the stomach is very low because of HCL secretion induced by protein consumption, the alpha amylase enzyme digestion stops and thus carbs enteric digestion will be slower and their bloodstream entrance will be slower too. This is why it is better to consume proteins plus carbs at each meal for not eliciting a harsh insulin response.


what are your thoughts on this?

This statement is incorrect for several reasons. First alpha-amylase isn't all that important. It's pancreatic amylase that does the bulk of carbohydrate digestion. As I recall, there is no decrease in the rate of carbohydrate digestion in individuals withour alpha-amylase. Second, the stomach has a basal rate of acid secretion that keeps the pH pretty low. The pH of the stomach is low enough to inactivate alpha-amylase regardless of whether or not protein is ingested. Third, if the carbohydrate that you ingested is glucose then it does not require alpha-amylase or pancreatic amylase (or any other glycosidase) to be digested. Glucose is taken up from the gut just as it is. Finally, both protein and carbohydrates elicit an insulin response. The mechanism is different for the two and the additive effect is greater than either alone. That said, protein greatly decreases gastric emptying. The degree to which the insulin response is decreased by ingesting protein along with carbohydrates is due to protein's effect on slowing gastric emptying. Thus, both the carbohydrates and protein enter the duodenum at a slower rate and thus enter the blood stream at a slower rate.

ddegroff
03-02-2006, 10:12 AM
your muscles have 800 or so cals stored. I drink whey/honey/creatine right before i go lift. I drink that more for the end of my workout than the begining. My meal 1.5hrs before is brown rice and chicken, i feel that meal is more important than my preworkout.

WildCard
03-02-2006, 10:27 AM
Yes, as long as you're not waiting 10 hours between meals. The liver/muscles can store quite a bit of glycogen throughout the day.

Good discussion. Ultimately, it is to each his own. I am practicing carb cycling so, after my post workout meal, I dont eat a significant amount of carbs for almost 48 hours. I am pretty sure that my glycogen is depleted enough that my workouts benefit greatly from a very fast acting carbo right before my workout.

djreef
03-02-2006, 10:48 AM
prunedude pretty much nailed it. The idea behind eating a little bit of everything before a workout is to ensure that you don't run out of gas before the workout ends. Having said that, it's much less important for us as weight training athletes, than it is for someone who is endurance training. Most of us carry with us enough energy from calories consumed throughout the day to complete an hour's worth of hi-intensity training. Once again, the exceptions here might be those folks who workout first thing in the AM before they've had anything to eat, or someone who is dieting down for whatever reason, and restricting calories.

DJ

WildCard
03-02-2006, 11:12 AM
prunedude pretty much nailed it. The idea behind eating a little bit of everything before a workout is to ensure that you don't run out of gas before the workout ends. Having said that, it's much less important for us as weight training athletes, than it is for someone who is endurance training. Most of us carry with us enough energy from calories consumed throughout the day to complete an hour's worth of hi-intensity training. Once again, the exceptions here might be those folks who workout first thing in the AM before they've had anything to eat, or someone who is dieting down for whatever reason, and restricting calories.

DJ

Is this the case? I thought that most endurance athletes stuck to pure carbs before and during the exercise.

the marathon runners, cyclists and swimmers I know eat only pasta or pancakes and syrup before an event.

djreef
03-02-2006, 11:34 AM
Yes, the majority of them carb load leading up to an event.

DJ

Jorge Sanchez
03-02-2006, 11:40 AM
I think we need a new forum: "Questions for Built".

smalls
03-02-2006, 11:41 AM
your muscles have 800 or so cals stored.


Not to nitpick but I think this is far too generalized a statement (as well as being a typo). It's going to depend on your size and a number of other factors, but glycogen storage is going to be a lot higher than 200 grams for most people. Probably closer to 600+ grams (3600 cals) for average individuals. Then you have the liver too. Hell i'm getting nearly 800 grams daily (which is why these small things dont seem to matter for someone bulking like me, but on a carb depletion diet it might be more important. Still not the deciding factor though, IMO.)

smalls
03-02-2006, 11:43 AM
I think we need a new forum: "Questions for Built".


I beleive that is currently known as the diet and nutrition section. Eventually a name change will probably be in order. Built owns.

ArchAngel777
03-02-2006, 11:48 AM
I don't like to train on a full stomach


No kidding... I am also carefull not to drink too much before my workout too. I feel sick if I drink too much water and then attempt to work out... I don't even think about eating before a workout.

djreef
03-02-2006, 12:22 PM
Yea, I'm not sure why she isn't, at the very least, moderating this one. Someone should make a 'vote' thread to get her nominated.

DJ

ddegroff
03-02-2006, 01:49 PM
Not to nitpick but I think this is far too generalized a statement (as well as being a typo). It's going to depend on your size and a number of other factors, but glycogen storage is going to be a lot higher than 200 grams for most people. Probably closer to 600+ grams (3600 cals) for average individuals. Then you have the liver too. Hell i'm getting nearly 800 grams daily (which is why these small things dont seem to matter for someone bulking like me, but on a carb depletion diet it might be more important. Still not the deciding factor though, IMO.)


i'm actaully glad someone caught me on this. thanks smalls! I wrote that half paying attention to class (i spend more time on this site during class, than actually listening). In nutrition class i started thinking about that and realized it was much too low. IN my notes i have:
Blood glucose: 20kcal
Liver glucose: 400kcal
Muscle Glycogen: 1500kcal
So anywhere from 800-2000kcal. Now this is for an average person. For body builders this number will be much higher because we can store more glycogen because of our bigger muslces.

So, yes it my first statement was too low. But think about how many cals your burn during lifting, i doubt many of us burn more than 1500cals during our workouts (just a guess).

Built
03-02-2006, 01:56 PM
I wonder what it could be for a chick.

Any idea, ddegroff? (About 110-115 lbs LBM if this helps)

ddegroff
03-02-2006, 02:17 PM
absolutely no clue! thats more of a idea that i had. i was going with the idea that we eat more protein so our body can build more muscle. So as body builders we deplete our glycogen stores on a regular basis (and quickly because of the high intensity), and the body adapts by making more room for extra glycogen. That was the idea i was going with. In short bigger muscles = more room for storage.

As far as how much you have stored (i think thats what your asking), i can't come up with a way to know that forsure (maybe a muscle cross section). I

Built
03-02-2006, 02:27 PM
NP - there's almost never any data on strength athletes anyway - most of this stuff seems to be performed on endurance athletes - and further adding to the lack of generalizability, usually using young males as subjects.
That's why I get DEXA tested to see how I do after bulks and cuts. I want answers. Hell, I'd let you take a core sample through a quad if it would help.
Where are you going to school?

ddegroff
03-02-2006, 02:32 PM
MSCD (Metropolitan State College of Denver, CO) its a state college, i pay like $1500 a semester. Its rated up there with CU and CSU. Right now i guess our biology dep. is very well repected, and looks great for getting into grad school (which i plan to do).

Built
03-02-2006, 02:40 PM
Sounds great! Whatcha gonna do for your graduate work?

pruneman
03-02-2006, 02:45 PM
I wonder what it could be for a chick.

Any idea, ddegroff? (About 110-115 lbs LBM if this helps)

Here is a general formula that may help...

Glycogen can account for a maximum of ~3% of the weight of skeletal muscle, which in the normal (70kg male...lol) is ~600g glycogen. Normally, however, glycogen accounts for ~1-1.5% of skeletal m. mass (300-400g in the standard 70kg male).

I doubt that those numbers will be very predictive of YOUR glycogen levels since you train and since you're not a 70kg male. ;)

I don't know if that is helpful at all, but it's food for thought and it's kinda interesting.

ddegroff
03-02-2006, 02:45 PM
nutrition, seeing how much time i spend on this forum alone, LOL. But i think biomechanics could be cool also. When i went to my PT seminar, the guy hosting it (john schaffer), showed me some really cool ideas about how you should set up your posture for each exercise. Also i went to this seminar a couple weeks ago about MAT (muslce activation techniques). Its this new idea about rehab. Here's this site MAT (http://www.muscleactivation.com/). They have this internship progam that last 8months, after which you can practice MAT. I guess this is filling a void for sports teams.

Vapour Trails
03-03-2006, 03:41 PM
This is a bit off topic, but consuming whey before working out makes a lot of sense to me because of the time it takes for the aminos to actually reach your bloodstream.

We know that it takes 45-60 mins for the whey to be digested and absorbed, this is when you can observe a increase in the plasma concentation.

If you wait till after your workout to drink your whey, you aren't increasing your plasma concentration of aminos until maybe 2 hours after your first picked up a weight (assuming a one hour workout). This seems less than ideal to me.

Whey consumed immediately before a workout will be hitting your muscles right about the time your are finished lifting. Following the workout, you can eat a slower digesting protein which we serve to maintain that high plasma concentration of aminos for many hours.

WildCard
03-03-2006, 06:54 PM
This is a bit off topic, but consuming whey before working out makes a lot of sense to me because of the time it takes for the aminos to actually reach your bloodstream.

We know that it takes 45-60 mins for the whey to be digested and absorbed, this is when you can observe a increase in the plasma concentation.

If you wait till after your workout to drink your whey, you aren't increasing your plasma concentration of aminos until maybe 2 hours after your first picked up a weight (assuming a one hour workout). This seems less than ideal to me.

Whey consumed immediately before a workout will be hitting your muscles right about the time your are finished lifting. Following the workout, you can eat a slower digesting protein which we serve to maintain that high plasma concentration of aminos for many hours.

except that it is largely a myth that the body needs protein within one hour of a workout

smalls
03-03-2006, 07:31 PM
Optimizing results has very little to do with what the body NEEDS. The needs very very little protein. That certainly doesnt mean that's all we should give it.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
03-03-2006, 07:51 PM
except that it is largely a myth that the body needs protein within one hour of a workoutIt does. It's called protein synthesis.

Built
03-03-2006, 08:25 PM
nutrition, seeing how much time i spend on this forum alone, LOL. But i think biomechanics could be cool also. When i went to my PT seminar, the guy hosting it (john schaffer), showed me some really cool ideas about how you should set up your posture for each exercise. Also i went to this seminar a couple weeks ago about MAT (muslce activation techniques). Its this new idea about rehab. Here's this site MAT (http://www.muscleactivation.com/). They have this internship progam that last 8months, after which you can practice MAT. I guess this is filling a void for sports teams.


Biomechanics could be VERY cool. A friend of mine did that for his undergrad.

Thanks for the link - I'm reading it now.

Smalls - good point. I'm not after sufficient nutrition - I'm looking for an optimal strategy.

ddegroff
03-04-2006, 12:36 AM
Whey consumed immediately before a workout will be hitting your muscles right about the time your are finished lifting. Following the workout, you can eat a slower digesting protein which we serve to maintain that high plasma concentration of aminos for many hours.

This is pretty much why I take whey right before my workout. The idea is the whey is broken down to amino acids. So when the body needs them the most there are bunch ready to go. I feel it makes the postworkout meal a little more flexible.
Here's where I got the idea:
its from roundtable 3 on this site (http://wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=109), read the very first post.

ddegroff
03-04-2006, 12:36 AM
built- yeah what do you think? its a very interesting approach!

WildCard
03-04-2006, 12:38 AM
according to what I have read( who really knows whats real anymore) protein synthesis is active for up to 12 hours after a workout and feeding the body protein immediately after a workout can actually be counterproductive.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
03-04-2006, 01:21 AM
It would be nice if you posted links to what you're talking about.

Built
03-04-2006, 01:33 AM
built- yeah what do you think? its a very interesting approach!

It's why I think pre-workout nutrition is more important than post.

And I'm sure my dilute shake that I sip during a workout contributes to this effect.

WildCard
03-04-2006, 10:03 AM
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666

"Comparing research that used drinks consumed immediately after a workout (Tipton et al., 2001) versus those ingested an hour after training (Rasmussen et al., 2000), the results are surprising: it seems that post workout meal ingestion actually results in 30% lower protein synthesis rates than when we wait! So every time we thought that we were badass for drinking "as soon as the weight hit the floor, we were actually short changing ourselves."

smalls
03-04-2006, 11:29 AM
I want to know if you really think that is what's going to matter in the overall quest for putting on muscle, maintaining a decent bodyfat and getting stronger. Or maybe it just comes down to caloric balance.

Beast
03-04-2006, 11:55 AM
I want to know if you really think that is what's going to matter in the overall quest for putting on muscle, maintaining a decent bodyfat and getting stronger. Or maybe it just comes down to caloric balance.
People focusing on these dumbass little things isn't going to help anyone, unless he/she is an active, competing bodybuilder.

WildCard
03-04-2006, 12:48 PM
I want to know if you really think that is what's going to matter in the overall quest for putting on muscle, maintaining a decent bodyfat and getting stronger. Or maybe it just comes down to caloric balance.

can you clarify your question? many issues have been talked about.

but if you mean that getting pre-workout nutrition perfect is less important than overall caloric balance then I'll respectfully(unlike beast and some other immatures on this forum) have to disagree.

I know you will agree that : in the quest for the attaining of muscle, and the loss of fat, overall caloric balance means absolutely nothing unless one is in the gym pushing the body to new frontiers, which obviously can be optimized by pre-workout nutrition. It just so happens that I believe the best pre-workout nutrition is pure dextrose that absorbs quickly and noticeably improves strength, which enables a harder workout, thus facilitating the optimum breakdown of muscle and subsequent rebuild of same.

Your mileage may vary, and you have the prerogative to your own opinion. as I mentioned earlier, to each his own.

smalls
03-04-2006, 01:51 PM
Then I will have to disagree. If your eating a caloric surplus (which i'm assuming since we are now talking about progress in the gym and out of it) then preworkout nutrition is not that important. Provided your overall diet is on par with your goals.

Once we start talking about dieting, especially in the low BF% then preworkout (as with any one meal) gains importance.

And I dont think beast was being immature at all. People who have been at this long enough to make above average progress start to realize that worrying too much about little things just distracts you from the things that matter. And newbs worrying about perfecting one meal can often be detrimental.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
03-04-2006, 01:57 PM
People who have been at this long enough to make above average progress start to realize that worrying too much about little things just distracts you from the things that matter. And newbs worrying about perfecting one meal can often be detrimental.:withstupi

Quoted for truth. It really is almost demotivating when you worry about the little things, because it takes so much time to make everything "perfect".

WildCard
03-04-2006, 02:11 PM
Then I will have to disagree. If your eating a caloric surplus (which i'm assuming since we are now talking about progress in the gym and out of it) then preworkout nutrition is not that important. Provided your overall diet is on par with your goals.

Once we start talking about dieting, especially in the low BF% then preworkout (as with any one meal) gains importance.

good. as long as we are all get along.

btw, based on weight change in the last month, I am in a calorie deficit, even though my lifts have INCREASED in the same time period( and no, I dont take steroids. If I did, I wouldnot be sweating the small stuff). I say its because of nutrient timing pre-workout. Maybe its not such a small thing after all when one can lose weight, body-fat, and still increase lifts. Time will tell though.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
03-04-2006, 02:21 PM
btw, based on weight change in the last month, I am in a calorie deficit, even though my lifts have INCREASED in the same time periodWhat about your muscle gain? And do you know what your basal caloric intake is?

Beast
03-04-2006, 04:03 PM
It's just easy to get caught up in the little things and lose site of the big picture...

So back to the topic, I guess pure carbs right after workout and then protein an hour after is the best PWO method?

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
03-04-2006, 04:15 PM
Replenishing electrolytes + nutrients for muscle tissue repair FTW!!

Built
03-04-2006, 04:34 PM
Yanno, it's funny, but as I've become more and more involved with this sport/lifestyle/body image dysmorphia thing called bodybuilding, I worry less and less about the little stuff.

I've planned out my diet as a compromise between what I've read is optimal and what I find personally comfortable. For the most part, there's little difference between the two.

Dunno about the rest of you, but I find the people who seem the most obsessed with minutia are the ones who most have to worry about the big picture.

smalls
03-04-2006, 08:24 PM
good. as long as we are all get along.

btw, based on weight change in the last month, I am in a calorie deficit, even though my lifts have INCREASED in the same time period( and no, I dont take steroids. If I did, I wouldnot be sweating the small stuff). I say its because of nutrient timing pre-workout. Maybe its not such a small thing after all when one can lose weight, body-fat, and still increase lifts. Time will tell though.


Yes, yes it will.

Since were sharing stories, I have always just worried about total caloric and protein intake. I eat 1 meal (pretty much the exact same as every other meal 1 hour before I workout. I have put on 107lbs in 7 years, while staying under 16% BF (68lbs in 4 years naturally) doing this. My first year I made NO gains because I thought supplements were the bomb and timing of meals mattered even if I didnt eat enough.

Small things matter in very small ways. The principles are the only things required to actually succeed.