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Mr. D
03-17-2006, 07:37 AM
I am 25, male, 5'10 and currently 164 lbs with about 14-15% bodyfat. I currently take in about 2500 calories, with about 38% protein, 32% carb and 30% fat. As far as supplements I take ON-whey 3x a day (morning, pre and post workout) and 5-7g of creatine post workout.

I lift 3x a week and cardio 4x a week.

Should I up my calories to gain muscle? If so, what should my ratios be?
I really dont want to add any fat or make my waist size any bigger.

One last thing: I am a vegetarian and my protein sources are: ON-whey, nonfat cottage cheese, nonfat cheese, skim milk, nonfat yogurt, beans and legumes, tofu, and wheat gluten.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 08:54 AM
I am 25, male, 5'10 and currently 164 lbs with about 14-15% bodyfat. I currently take in about 2500 calories, with about 38% protein, 32% carb and 30% fat. As far as supplements I take ON-whey 3x a day (morning, pre and post workout) and 5-7g of creatine post workout.

I lift 3x a week and cardio 4x a week.

Should I up my calories to gain muscle? If so, what should my ratios be?
I really dont want to add any fat or make my waist size any bigger.

One last thing: I am a vegetarian and my protein sources are: ON-whey, nonfat cottage cheese, nonfat cheese, skim milk, nonfat yogurt, beans and legumes, tofu, and wheat gluten.

Thanks for your help in advance.


You will not gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. If you do it will be in such a small amount that you wont be able to record it. Choose which one is more important to you..

1) Being healthy and looking great in your body

2) Strength, size and muscle

Answer that question and i'll help you out.

-jordan

What i mean by that question is. Ask yourself if your willing to put on some fat in exchange for muscle. If not....well i'll still help you

Mr. D
03-17-2006, 08:57 AM
Jordan, thanks for reply. I would say my ultimate goal is to bring my body fat down to 10% and weigh what I weigh now (around 165).

I hope that helps answer your question.

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 09:12 AM
Jordan, thanks for reply. I would say my ultimate goal is to bring my body fat down to 10% and weigh what I weigh now (around 165).

I hope that helps answer your question.

You will have to lose some weight sorry to say. There is a fantastic cutting guide in a sticky thread on this forum. Its not hard to find. Follow that guide and you'll be great. Join fitday (www.fitday.com) and track your progress. Its ok that your losing weight if you think about it. No one wants to carry around fat with them, its useless dead weight. Once your down to 10% you can start building muscle and getting stronger and bigger. After a few months you'll have transformed your body and you'll look and feel great. Read that guide (its in the best of nutrition thread) and ask me if you have anymore questions concerning your diet (or as we call it "cut").

-jordan

Mr. D
03-17-2006, 09:27 AM
Jordan,

Around August 2005, I didnt like how i looked. I had gained muscle but I also thought too much fat. I weighed 175 lbs at the same. So I went on a strict 1800 calorie diet, with about a 40/40/20 breakdown. By December I weighed around 151. Too many people complained I was too skinny looking and I did lose a lot of muscle mass and strength while doing this.

I was doing a total body-circuit routine 3x a week and HIIT training once a week, with a spin class once a week, and swimming for 30 minutes once a week.

I then went on vacation for 3.5 weeks and ate like a madman and gained 10 lbs, mostly fat since I stopped lifting. Once I returned I started creatine, and thats where I am now, at 165 pounds.

According to fitday my maintence calories are 2900. Even with 500 cal deficit, I would be at 2400, which i currently do and have been doing since Feb 1, but with no weight loss.

If i bring my calories down to 2000, lets say, what ratio should i follow?Ive read 45% pro, 30% pro, 25% cho during a cut. And to only eat carbs around workout.

My LBM is 140 lbs, so I should eat at least 140 g of protein and at least 70g of fat?

For a 2000 calorie diet, that would come out to about 200g of protein, 142.5g of carb and 70g of fat?

As for my lifting program, should i do split. Back/Bi, Chest/Tris, and Shoulders/Legs is what i currently do. I lift heavy, 2 sets of 4-6 (or failure) on each exercise.

Thanks for your help man.

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 09:57 AM
Jordan,

Around August 2005, I didnt like how i looked. I had gained muscle but I also thought too much fat. I weighed 175 lbs at the same. So I went on a strict 1800 calorie diet, with about a 40/40/20 breakdown. By December I weighed around 151. Too many people complained I was too skinny looking and I did lose a lot of muscle mass and strength while doing this.

I was doing a total body-circuit routine 3x a week and HIIT training once a week, with a spin class once a week, and swimming for 30 minutes once a week.

I then went on vacation for 3.5 weeks and ate like a madman and gained 10 lbs, mostly fat since I stopped lifting. Once I returned I started creatine, and thats where I am now, at 165 pounds.

According to fitday my maintence calories are 2900. Even with 500 cal deficit, I would be at 2400, which i currently do and have been doing since Feb 1, but with no weight loss.

If i bring my calories down to 2000, lets say, what ratio should i follow?Ive read 45% pro, 30% pro, 25% cho during a cut. And to only eat carbs around workout.

My LBM is 140 lbs, so I should eat at least 140 g of protein and at least 70g of fat?

For a 2000 calorie diet, that would come out to about 200g of protein, 142.5g of carb and 70g of fat?

As for my lifting program, should i do split. Back/Bi, Chest/Tris, and Shoulders/Legs is what i currently do. I lift heavy, 2 sets of 4-6 (or failure) on each exercise.

Thanks for your help man.

The problem with every diet is that when alot of people are finished they start eating like crazy again. What you have to do is control yourself and do it slowly both ways. If you cut your calories to low to fast you'll lose alot of muscle but if you raise them to fast you'll gain alot of fat. According to that cut guide you should be eating around 2000 calories to lose weight effectivly. Your weight lose should center around your diet and not training. However if i were you i'd do some HIIT 2-3 days a week and lift 3-4 days. Depending on how you feel you can throw in some rest days to heal up. As for carbs you should eat most if not all of them before your workout. As for the split of macros i'd say 45% protein, 30% carbs and 25% fat. The reason being is that high protein diets help burn calories compared to fats and carbs.

I cant really give you much advice on your workouts because they are different for everyone. Read around in the bodybuilding forum for some guides. I would like to say though that you should keep doing what your doing for your core lifts but up the reps on your auxilaries. This way it stimulates muscle growth (so maybe you could pack on a pound or two of muscle during all this).

-jordan

P.S. No offense but people that dont like meat usually dont make good body-buildiers.....:/

EDIT: Horrible post on carbs on my part. I am fixing it as we speak. I am having a bad day...

Mr. D
03-17-2006, 10:14 AM
Jordan,

I really do appreciate all the time you are putting into this. I did over eat during my vacation, but I was out of the country and the food there was just too hard to resist. But honestly people say I look better now, I just dont like the lack of definition with my shirt off.

I read thru the Cutting guide by Built. In his P+F meals should i be aiming for Zero carbs in those meals or just follow the ratios and distribute the carbs thruout the day. Isnt post workout the best time to down carbs to refuel the glycogen in your body?

Should i continue with creatine?The 1.25 cups of grape juice I drink with it make attaining the ratios very hard.

Is it better to cut and then try to gain muscle, or to gain muscle (fat) and then cut?

Slim Schaedle
03-17-2006, 10:37 AM
Carbs are basically energy. They give you much more energy then protein or fat
Not true

More ATP is generated through fatty acid oxidation than protein and carbohydrates.


P.S. No offense but people that dont like meat usually dont make good body-buildiers.....:/
Jordan come on......how can you really know this. And explain why not.

(The top bodybuilder in India is vegetarian and he puts most of us on this board to shame)



Jordan, earlier you said that it is not possible to gain muscle while cutting fat (which it is possible) and then in your last post you recommend core lifts and suggest that he may ba able to add a pound of muscle "in all this."

I don't go following your posts looking for things to pick on, but you seriously need to get your sh-- together and learn what is correct and what is not before giving advice.

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 10:41 AM
Not true

More ATP is generated through fatty acid oxidation than protein and carbohydrates.


Jordan come on......how can you really know this. And explain why not.

(The top bodybuilder in India is vegetarian and he puts most of us on this board to shame)

Carbs are your bodies main source of energy.

Case closed.

For the most part vegitarians make poor body-builders. I am not at all interested in the small percentage of vegitarians that are good body builders. Its not impossible though.

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 10:48 AM
Jordan,

I really do appreciate all the time you are putting into this. I did over eat during my vacation, but I was out of the country and the food there was just too hard to resist. But honestly people say I look better now, I just dont like the lack of definition with my shirt off.

I read thru the Cutting guide by Built. In his P+F meals should i be aiming for Zero carbs in those meals or just follow the ratios and distribute the carbs thruout the day. Isnt post workout the best time to down carbs to refuel the glycogen in your body?

Should i continue with creatine?The 1.25 cups of grape juice I drink with it make attaining the ratios very hard.

Is it better to cut and then try to gain muscle, or to gain muscle (fat) and then cut?

Built has alot of respect from many people including myself, however carb cycling is not the only way to cut. She does it because it controls her eating (carbs usually make you hungry). I do not worry about carbs for the most part because carbs are not bad on cuts IMO. If you want to follow her guide PM her and i know she'll answer. Shes very very helpful when it comes to cuts, she helped me out with mine.

Stay with the creatine it will help you in your workouts.

Drop the juice and mix it with some other liquid. I usually include my creatine in my shakes. I got in a big discussion with built on orange juice.

Glycogen stores are empty in the mornings when you first wake up. This is why you should worry about refilling them at that time so you have enough energy to workout. However you should include some carbs post workout to help with muscle growth. All in all pretty much all your carbs should be eaten before and after your workout.

-jordan

Slim Schaedle
03-17-2006, 10:50 AM
Carbs are your bodies main source of energy.

Case closed.

For the most part vegitarians make poor body-builders. I am not at all interested in the small percentage of vegitarians that are good body builders. Its not impossible though.
Jordan, you really have no clue about biochemistry and nutrition do you?

The body's source of energy is ATP. (do you know what ATP is and how it "works?")

Now, the way ATP is produced varies according to MANY different factors.

It just so happens that fatty acids enter the Krebs cycle through several reactions which I am not going to illustrate in detail right now, and produce ATP.

The amount of ATP they produce exceeds the amount that carbs produce through glycolysis and entering into the Krebs cycle, and more than protein as it undergoes gluconeogenesis.

It's apparent you may not even heard of half these words so I invite you not to make false statements concerning them until you have a clear understanding of it.

Now, please explain in detail why vegetarians make poor bodybuilders.

Maki Riddington
03-17-2006, 10:56 AM
Vegetarians in general eat a very unbalanced diet (high carb, low fat and protein). Vegetarian bodybuilders would simply need to make sure they are taking in complete sources of protein.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they make poor bodybuilders as they should have the basic understanding that sufficient amounts of protein are required to build muscle tissue.

Slim Schaedle
03-17-2006, 10:59 AM
Vegetarians in general eat a very unbalanced diet (high carb, low fat and protein). Vegetarian bodybuilders would simply need to make sure they are taking in complete sources of protein.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they make poor bodybuilders as they should have the basic understanding that sufficient amounts of protein are required to build muscle tissue.
Exactly, looks like Maki saved you a little explaining, Jordan.

You should thank him.

Holto
03-17-2006, 11:00 AM
They have enough vegetarian protein supps on the market today that bodbuilders have the option.

Interactive makes rice and pea based products not to mention that soy is a viable source also. Veggie bacon, burgers, dogs, the list goes on and on.

My mom is almost 60 and is stronger then when she was 20. She is a vegetarian with a litany of serious diseases. I started her lifting because of her fibro-myalgia. She used her bare hands at first because she was afraid to use the 2lbers I bought her. Now she can curl 15lb dumbells.

getfit
03-17-2006, 11:02 AM
yep, i'm also vegetarian and take enough protein.

Slim Schaedle
03-17-2006, 11:03 AM
yep, i'm also vegetarian and take enough protein.
getfit, you are a sorry excuse for a bodybuilder.

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 11:04 AM
Jordan, you really have no clue about biochemistry and nutrition do you?

The body's source of energy is ATP. (do you know what ATP is and how it "works?")

Now, the way ATP is produced varies according to MANY different factors.

It just so happens that fatty acids enter the Krebs cycle through several reactions which I am not going to illustrate in detail right now, and produce ATP.

The amount of ATP they produce exceeds the amount that carbs produce through glycolysis and entering into the Krebs cyclke, and more than protein as it undergoes gluconeogenesis.

It's apparent you may not even heard of half these words so I invite you not to make false statements concerning them until you have a clear understanding of it.

Now, please explain in detail why vegetarians make poor bodybuilders.

ATP is a nucleotide that performs many essential roles in the cell.

* It is the major energy currency of the cell, providing the energy for most of the energy-consuming activities of the cell.
* It is one of the monomers used in the synthesis of RNA and, after conversion to deoxyATP (dATP), DNA.
* It regulates many biochemical pathways.

Fats provide 9 kilocalories per gram (kcal/g), compared with 4 kcal/g for carbohydrate and protein.

You did not need to go into detail on the krebs cycle as that is irrelevant. You are arguing that fat produces more energy then carbs which is not what im saying at all. I am saying that most of the energy you get for your day to day activities (walking, running, lifting) comes from carbohydrates unless you are on a modified carb diet like built is.

Vegetarians usually make poor bodybuilders. Why? The best sources of protein are found in animal flesh. Chicken, red meat, fish are all great sources of protein and are essential for building quality muscle. You can bodybuild being a vegetarian but its much more sensible and easier if you just eat meat. You could always supplement but food is always superior then supplementation.

-jordan

ArchAngel777
03-17-2006, 11:09 AM
Vegetarians usually make poor bodybuilders. Why? The best sources of protein are found in animal flesh. Chicken, red meat, fish are all great sources of protein and are essential for building quality muscle. You can bodybuild being a vegetarian but its much more sensible and easier if you just eat meat. You could always supplement but food is always superior then supplementation.

-jordan

Current research has found that we can bank our amino acids... So when we eat incomplete protein sources (most veggies) that have only some of the amino acids, it can then withdraw from your bank account to make a complete protein. You would still have to eat enough protein and a certain variety though to even have those aminos banked in the first place. You can mix and match veggies over the course of a day or two and come up with complete protein sources without the "bank theory".

In addition to that, I believe only a vegan is a purist... Vegetarians still eat eggs, and poultry, etc so they can get the best form of protein (eggs/milk, IMO) in their diet.

Confusing about the whole vegan thing, I know... I never understood why vegetarians they can eat chicken... But I guess a vegan is the only purist out there.

getfit
03-17-2006, 11:12 AM
i don't eat poultry,i do eat eggs, drink milk etc..

Slim Schaedle
03-17-2006, 11:12 AM
ATP is a nucleotide that performs many essential roles in the cell.

* It is the major energy currency of the cell, providing the energy for most of the energy-consuming activities of the cell.
* It is one of the monomers used in the synthesis of RNA and, after conversion to deoxyATP (dATP), DNA.
* It regulates many biochemical pathways.

Fats provide 9 kilocalories per gram (kcal/g), compared with 4 kcal/g for carbohydrate and protein.

You did not need to go into detail on the krebs cycle as that is irrelevant. You are arguing that fat produces more energy then then carbs which is not what im saying at all. I am saying that most of the energy you get for your day to day activities (walking, running, lifting) comes from carbohydrates unless you are on a modified carb diet like built is.

Vegetarians usually make poor bodybuilders. Why? The best sources of protein are found in animal flesh. Chicken, red meat, fish are all great sources of protein and are essential for building quality muscle. You can bodybuild being a vegetarian but its much more sensible and easier if you just eat meat. You could always supplement but food is always superior then supplementation.

-jordan

Nice copy and paste job. You really know your stuff.

The Krebs cycle has every bit of relevance in what I am talking about.

Yes, fats have more calories than protein and carbs. They have more calories because they produce more energy through oxidation.

Look at the definition of a calorie. It's a measure of heat energy. Macronutritents are assigned calorie counts by the amount of energy measured from oxidation. You don;t magically have all these calories floating around in your body, despite what the popular assumption and identification of what a calorie is by societal standards.

And yes, you did say that carbs have more energy than fats and proteins. Unless you edited what you wrote, go back and look.

Of course a diet lacking in carbohydrates is taken into consideration. But guess what. After the carbs are used where does the energy come from? Fatty acids from the diet, or from adipose tissue (triglycerides in storage from) broken down into fatty acids which then enter the Krebs cycle as Fatty-acyl CoA, forming NADH+H+, FADH2, and GTP, all of which......produce ATP as the enter the electron transport chain. (by the way, I didn't cut and paste this.....and I didn't get into nearly half of the reactions or details involved)

(energy comes from amino acid oxidation also, but I am not getting into that)

So with a diet lacking in carbohydrates, maybe MOST of the energy required of the body does not come from carbohydrates. Wouldn't you agree? While we are on it, the body can use fatty acids for energy even when dietary carbohydrate levels are perfectly adequate.

As far as vegetarians go, ease of accomplishing a goal does not directly relate to the quality. This means that although meat eaters may have it easier, that does not mean they are of better quality.

ArchAngel777
03-17-2006, 11:15 AM
As far as vegetarians go, ease of accomplishing a goal does not directly relate to the quality. This means that although meat eaters may have it easier, that does not mean they are of better quality.

Definately agree with this.

getfit
03-17-2006, 11:21 AM
getfit, you are a sorry excuse for a bodybuilder.
Slim, what exactly are you trying to say?

ArchAngel777
03-17-2006, 11:23 AM
Slim, what exactly are you trying to say?

I was wondering what he meant too... LOL, I was like, "is that an insult or a compliment?"

Slim Schaedle
03-17-2006, 11:26 AM
Haha, no. It's sarcasm. Definately sarcasm. I was criticising what Jordan said about vegetarians being poor bodybuilders.

getfit
03-17-2006, 11:28 AM
Gotcha :)

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 11:40 AM
Nice copy and paste job. You really know your stuff.

The Krebs cycle has every bit of relevance in what I am talking about.

Yes, fats have more calories than protein and carbs. They have more calories because they produce more energy through oxidation.

Look at the definition of a calorie. It's a measure of heat energy. Macronutritents are assigned calorie counts by the amount of energy measured from oxidation. You don;t magically have all these calories floating around in your body, despite what the popular assumption and identification of what a calorie is by societal standards.

And yes, you did say that carbs have more energy than fats and proteins. Unless you edited what you wrote, go back and look.

Of course a diet lacking in carbohydrates is taken into consideration. But guess what. After the carbs are used where does the energy come from? Fatty acids from the diet, or from adipose tissue (triglycerides in storage from) broken down into fatty acids which then enter the Krebs cycle as Fatty-acyl CoA, forming NADH+H+, FADH2, and GTP, all of which......produce ATP as the enter the electron transport chain. (by the way, I didn't cut and paste this)

(energy comes from amino acid oxidation also, but I am not getting into that)

So with a diet lacking in carbohydrates, maybe MOST of the energy required of the body does not come from carbohydrates. Wouldn't you agree? While we are on it, the body can use fatty acids for energy even when dietary carbohydrate levels are perfectly adequate.

As far as vegetarians go, ease of accomplishing a goal does not directly relate to the quality. This means that although meat eaters may have it easier, that does not mean they are of better quality.

Why do you continue to list information after information that does not pertain to the current discussion? Yes i copied and pasted all that information i gave you. You asked me what ATP was and i gave you it. When people ask me what something means i always google it to give the exact definition so as to satisfy the question fully. Yes with a diet lacking in carbs it would have to come from a combination of something else but it does not all come from fat. It comes from a mixture of protein, fat and carbs. For most people carbs are the main source of energy in your daily life. That is all im trying to say.

Being a vegetarian is up to the individual. We could debate on and on if they make good body buiders or not. As long as your diet is in order you can be a vegetarian and still be a good bodybuilder (like getfit).

No need for sarcasim/mockery i never said she was a bad bodybuilder.

Very poor character on your part.

-jordan

Mr. D
03-17-2006, 11:50 AM
Any of yall have suggestions on my diet to acheive my goals?

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 12:24 PM
Any of yall have suggestions on my diet to acheive my goals?

Read the thread for "what a bodybuilder eats" to get some ideas foodwise. Like its been said already its harder for vegetarians to get the protein needed for a cut/bulk. However with good supplemention you can get what you need. Stick with the ratios i gave you for protein/carbs/fats (45%/30%/25%) and plug this information into your fitday account. If you consume roughly 2000 calories with the suggested macros you will make great progress. After a few weeks your results might taper off, and when this happens you could increase your cardio or drop your calories slightly.

If you havent done it the first step towards a great cut is to join fitday. www.fitday.com. Start plugging in what you ate today so you can get a feel on how to use it.

Next decide on three cardio activities you like and tell me about them. If you hate cardio it will not work for you. You should enjoy what you do.

Pick up some good quality creatine monohydrate and a good whey protein source as far as supplements go. Also include fish oil in your diet to prevent muscle breakdown (they come in capsules at any vitamin store).

Make sure you get enough sleep while you trying to lose weight. If you overtrain your body you will do more damage then good.

Good luck.

-jordan

Mr. D
03-17-2006, 12:36 PM
Ok Jordan I will try those ratios out for the next several weeks. I dont do fish oil, is flaxseed oil good enough?

I have a fitday account and been using that to track what Ive been eating up until now. I have just been trying to figure out the best ratios and amount of calories.

I dont abhor cardio at all. I do it currently at 4 days a week. 3 days, I do a 4 minute warmup at 4.0 (1.0 incline), then 3 miles at 8.0 followed by 5 minute cooldown. On days my knees ache, I do elliptical training(with arm swing) or HIIT training on the elliptical (no arm swing)

On the 4th cardio day, I swim for 30 minutes.

Whey i use ON 100% whey and for creatine I use ON creatine monohydrate.
For my post workout shake I use 1 cup of skim milk and 1 scoop of whey. You suggest just adding the creatine to that and ditching the grape juice or maybe mixing 0.5 cup of grape juice in there?

I will start this diet tomorrow and thanks for your help.

It will be hard giving up the fruits I eat!i love them.

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 01:07 PM
Ok Jordan I will try those ratios out for the next several weeks. I dont do fish oil, is flaxseed oil good enough?

I have a fitday account and been using that to track what Ive been eating up until now. I have just been trying to figure out the best ratios and amount of calories.

I dont abhor cardio at all. I do it currently at 4 days a week. 3 days, I do a 4 minute warmup at 4.0 (1.0 incline), then 3 miles at 8.0 followed by 5 minute cooldown. On days my knees ache, I do elliptical training(with arm swing) or HIIT training on the elliptical (no arm swing)

On the 4th cardio day, I swim for 30 minutes.

Whey i use ON 100% whey and for creatine I use ON creatine monohydrate.
For my post workout shake I use 1 cup of skim milk and 1 scoop of whey. You suggest just adding the creatine to that and ditching the grape juice or maybe mixing 0.5 cup of grape juice in there?

I will start this diet tomorrow and thanks for your help.

It will be hard giving up the fruits I eat!i love them.

Woah put on the brakes. Dont give up fruits, they are great for you and perfect for cuts. Just stay away from juice. Juice usually has tons of sugar in it which is bad for cuts.

Wow i just looked at your cardio. You need to cut back on that ALOT. At max you should only do 3 days cardio. Two days should be HIIT training for 20 minutes (switch off every few seconds to what your comfortable). The third day i usually leave open for AM cardio (first thing in the morning) or swimming in the afternoon. Cut back your cardio to 6 mph. 8 is way to fast for fat loss purposes.

Flaxseed is fine. I use it myself. Your supplements seem in order to.

-jordan

Mr. D
03-17-2006, 01:28 PM
I will try that 3 days cardio (HIIT), 3 days lift and 1 day rest. If i dont do HIIT, then you suggest 6 mph on treadmill?I dont know Ive always subscribed to maximum effort and 8 mph is pretty tough for a sustained time. I just look at runners and their bodies and they are always lean and cut. according to that treadmill readings, i burn 460 cals in that 30 minutes.

As far as fruits go, last time i was on cut I had to dramatically reduce the intake of them (i used to eat A LOT of mango,strawberries,apples,bananas,papaya,grapes) because of the carb content. The only grains I currently eat now is oatmeal. My carbs come from milk, cottage cheese, yogurt, nuts,fruits,beans,vegetables (though minimal that they can be in some cases)

anyone know a good way to do HIIT on the treadmill?

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 01:43 PM
I will try that 3 days cardio (HIIT), 3 days lift and 1 day rest. If i dont do HIIT, then you suggest 6 mph on treadmill?I dont know Ive always subscribed to maximum effort and 8 mph is pretty tough for a sustained time. I just look at runners and their bodies and they are always lean and cut. according to that treadmill readings, i burn 460 cals in that 30 minutes.

As far as fruits go, last time i was on cut I had to dramatically reduce the intake of them (i used to eat A LOT of mango,strawberries,apples,bananas,papaya,grapes) because of the carb content. The only grains I currently eat now is oatmeal. My carbs come from milk, cottage cheese, yogurt, nuts,fruits,beans,vegetables (though minimal that they can be in some cases)

anyone know a good way to do HIIT on the treadmill?

Yes runners are cut but they are scrawny. Along with the fat they lose they also shed pounds of muscle. Bodybuilders do not want that. 6 mph is the absolute limit on how fast you should go on a treadmill. Any faster will push your body into a muscle burning machine instead of a fat burning machine. Trust me i did it on my last cut and it was awful. Drop the treadmills for your HIIT training its dangerous. The weather is improving so find a secluded spot and do the HIIT's.

As far as fruits go they are fantastic for you. Just dont base your diet around them. Like with everything you must have variety in your diet.

That being said YOU MUST CHEAT. Well you dont have to cheat, but i think you should. By cheating i mean having one "bad" meal for yourself once a week. Now i know what your thinking "this guys nuts" but hear me out. Cheating gives you the sanity to continue with a diet so you dont break down and pig out like crazy. Make sure the cheat meal fits into your macros and calories that day. For instance. Lets say you are really craving....i dont know. Some chicken wings. Limit yourself to how many wings you can eat in 30 minutes and record them in your fitday. As long as you set limits and dont go over your calories that day, this one cheat meal will help out alot in your weight lose goals.

-jordan

Slim Schaedle
03-17-2006, 02:15 PM
Why do you continue to list information after information that does not pertain to the current discussion?
If you don't understand how it pertains to the discussion then you should not be giving out any dietary advice. I don't go around beating my chest and waving my knowledge flag for the he-- of it, but I do know alot more about this stuff than you. And yes, it does pertain.


For most people carbs are the main source of energy in your daily life. That is all im trying to say.
yet.....

Carbs are basically energy. They give you much more energy then protein or fat
and

Carbs are your bodies main source of energy.

Case closed.
So actually, that's not all you were trying to say.

You'll have to forgive me if I come accross as an a--hole here or express poor character. I'm really not. And I'm sure you are a good fella too. But, you need to realize and understand where you cross the line in regards to logic, understanding, and knowledge of the information we discuss here on WBB. Plenty other have seen this and pointed it out to you but you don't seem to be getting it.


As long as your diet is in order you can be a vegetarian and still be a good bodybuilder (like getfit).
once again.....

P.S. No offense but people that dont like meat usually dont make good body-buildiers.....

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 02:20 PM
If you don't understand how it pertains to the discussion then you should not be giving out any dietary advice.


yet.....

and

So actually, that's not all you were trying to say.

You'll have to forgive my if I come accross as an a--hole here or express poor character. I'm really not. And I'm sure you are a good fella too. But, you need to realize and understand where you cross the line in regards to logic, understanding, and knowledge of the information we discuss here on WBB. Plenty other have seen this and poitned it out to you but you don't seem to be getting it.


once again.....

No i mean that you are giving me useless information that does not need to be said. Instead you are beating a dead horse (i think thats the saying). I fixed my post if you go back and check and i left an edit there. I am only giving out information i feel will help this young man get the body he wants. Its very easy to sit back and critisize someone, when instead you should be trying to help out the OP.

That being said, i have nothing against you. I dont really know you to be frank. I just dont like it when people give negative feedback that only tears down what has been said but dosent really answer any more questions.

For some reason people seem to turn a blind eye to alot of things i say. For the most part vegetarians do NOT make good bodybuilders; im sorry but its the truth. This does not mean that if your a vegetarian you CANT be a good bodybuilder. That is not at all what im saying. For some reason you tried to twist a generalization into a personal attack on getfit. Look at her. She knows what shes doing, and her diet shows it. There is no more need to discuss either of these topics because you have made your point.

-jordan

Slim Schaedle
03-17-2006, 02:28 PM
No i mean that you are giving me useless information that does not need to be said. Instead you are beating a dead horse (i think thats the saying). I fixed my post if you go back and check and i left and edit there.
Son, if you think anything I posted is useless, you better get your head out of your a--. Aren't you in a college nutrition class right now? Are they teaching you anthing.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
03-17-2006, 02:30 PM
For the most part vegetarians do NOT make good bodybuilders; im sorry but its the truth.You should meet a bodybuilder friend of mine who is strictly vegetarian. He is quite huge. He eats a ridiculous amount of soy.

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 02:31 PM
Son, if you think anything I posted is useless, you better get your head out of your a--. Aren't you in a college nutrition class right now? Are they teaching you anthing.

Thats great, your into biochemistry. I really do not care. If you want to help the OP do it, otherwise please save the server space.

-jordan

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
03-17-2006, 02:32 PM
It would also help if you stopped making generalizations based on lack of observations.

Slim Schaedle
03-17-2006, 02:35 PM
Thats great, your into biochemistry.
Which is the very basis of nutrition, health, bodybuidling, etc.


But none of it pertains to what we talk about here.

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 02:35 PM
You should meet a bodybuilder friend of mine who is strictly vegetarian. He is quite huge. He eats a ridiculous amount of soy.

Now why is this? Because he's supplementing. Why???

BECAUSE MEAT HAS ALOT OF PROTEIN IN IT! :windup:

-jordan

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 02:36 PM
Which is the very basis of nutrition, health, bodybuidling, etc.


But none of it pertains to what we talk about here.

I doubt you need to know the chemical names for compounds, elements etc. (like h2o is water) to become a great bodybuilder.

-jordan

Slim Schaedle
03-17-2006, 02:37 PM
Now why is this? Because he's supplementing. Why???

BECAUSE MEAT HAS ALOT OF PROTEIN IN IT! :windup:

-jordan
Eating soy doesn't automatically mean he is supplementing.


Btw, supplements = food. A calorie, is a calorie, is a calorie....

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
03-17-2006, 02:37 PM
Now why is this? Because he's supplementing. Why???

BECAUSE MEAT HAS ALOT OF PROTEIN IN IT! :windup:

-jordanWhat part of soy did you not understand? He is not taking supplements, he is eating food that contains soy. And even if he was taking soy supps, which he is not, it wouldn't contain any products that came from animals.

:windup:

Slim Schaedle
03-17-2006, 02:40 PM
I doubt you need to know the chemical names for compounds, elements etc. (like h2o is water) to become a great bodybuilder.

-jordan
lol. I didn't say everyone has to know the stuff. I said the basis is chemistry.

Kind of like the basis of everything in the world is chemistry. But I guess a person can't be a person unless they know what they are made up of.

I think this thread needs a lockin'.

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 02:43 PM
lol. I didn't say everyone has to know the stuff. I said the basis is chemistry.

Kind of like the basis of everything in the world is chemistry. But I guess a person can't be a person unless they know what they are made up of.

I think this thread needs a lockin'.

No dont lock it. He may need help some more. Just wait a little bit in case he has more problems then lock it.

-jordan

Slim Schaedle
03-17-2006, 02:44 PM
No dont lock it. He may need help some more. Just wait a little bit in case he has more problems then lock it.

-jordan
He already sent a PM to me asking for help hours ago. Sorry.

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 02:45 PM
He already sent a PM to me asking for help hours ago. Sorry.

Lock away.

-jordan

Jorge Sanchez
03-17-2006, 02:53 PM
For the most part vegetarians do NOT make good bodybuilders; im sorry but its the truth.

For the most part people who eat meat do NOT make good bodybuilders; what's your point?

Jordan, I see a bit of a pattern here, don't you?

Jordanbcool
03-17-2006, 02:59 PM
For the most part people who eat meat do NOT make good bodybuilders; what's your point?

Jordan, I see a bit of a pattern here, don't you?

Slim wheres the lock?

Your KILLING me slim!!!

-jordan

brickt.
03-17-2006, 03:34 PM
Christ, Jordan, just STFU.

LOCK.

getfit
03-17-2006, 03:36 PM
i think this thread has ran it's course.