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Jordanbcool
03-22-2006, 01:43 PM
These past two days working out i've been having severe energy problems. I mainly shot for carbs before a workout. In the past they've done good but since im on a cut now should i rely more on fats? I havent been sleeping well these past few nights because my allergies are kicking my butt. However i've had great lifting days on what i thought was poor sleep. It just seems like the weight i used to be able to do on a bulk is extremly difficult on my cut. Obviously this is expected but to what degree?

For instance. Last week i did two 85 pound dumbells three times and this week i could only do two 75 pound dumbells three times. Also my leg press has went down about 50 pounds. On lifting days i consume 2700 calories. Usually a good 500-600 of those are my preworkout meal.

I dont expect to really go up in weight on my lifts but i'd like to atleast stay at what i used to do.

Eh.

-jordan

Built
03-22-2006, 01:49 PM
Okay

Jordon, how long before you lift are you eating, and what, exactly, is your macronutrient breakdown for the day (ie grams p, c and fat)?

ArchAngel777
03-22-2006, 01:57 PM
Do what built says, but additionally, are you using a stimulant? That may help the problem. It sure did with me... I got through some rough workouts with a straight shot of caffeine. Might want to try that if you are not already.

Built
03-22-2006, 01:58 PM
Oh, for sure - 200mg caffeine just before training is a Godsend, particularly on a cut.

Also, are you getting in enough salt?

Jordanbcool
03-22-2006, 02:21 PM
Oh, for sure - 200mg caffeine just before training is a Godsend, particularly on a cut.

Also, are you getting in enough salt?

Enough salt? I never even imagined. Anyways heres my fitday so far.

http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=jordanbcool

I've been cutting since monday. Take a look at the diet so far.

Im dissapointed at the percentages on tuesday. I ate way to many carbs that day compared to my protein and fats. Monday was picture perfect, and it looks like today is good to.

The caffeine seems like a good idea. I'll give it a shot.

-jordan

I eat 2500 calories on non lift days/SS days and 2700 calories on HIIT days/lifting days. Im playing around with the numbers to see what works for me. I ate roughly 3300 calories last week and didnt gain anything so these numbers seem fine for now.

Holto
03-22-2006, 02:26 PM
Did you do a maintenance period between going from bulk to cut?

Jordanbcool
03-22-2006, 02:27 PM
Did you do a maintenance period between going from bulk to cut?

Yes. Apparently its 3300.

-jordan

Built
03-22-2006, 02:36 PM
Okay

You weigh 190, 180 is your goal weight. I'll assume that will put you at around 10% bodyfat, so let's call your LBM roughly 162 lbs for the purpose of this exercise.

You are cutting on around 2600 cals, reduced from maint of 3300. This is a fairly aggressive 20% reduction in calories, but should be fine.

You like your protein fairly high.

How about this, based on a four day training split:

LBM = 162.0 lbs.
Maintenance calories: 3,300 per day;
4 lifting/HIIT days per week.
A caloric deficit of 4,620 calories per week,
for a loss of of 1.3 pounds per week

Average daily macros:
264g of protein,
102g of fat, and
167g of carbohydrate,
2,640 calories in total.

(4) Lifting/HIIT days:
292g of protein,
81g of fat, and
214g of carbohydrate,
2,753 calories in total.

(3) Rest/SS Cardio days:
227g of protein,
130g of fat, and
104g of carbohydrate,
2,489 calories in total.

ddegroff
03-22-2006, 02:37 PM
wow you shouldn't drop weigh like that, in one week. It looks like your diet is in check, cutting 600cals shouldnt make that big of a difference. Maybe your allergies + lack of sleep + less cals + bad mind set = less weight. I dont know what kind of mindset you were in before you worked out. But from personal experience, if your pissed from lack of sleep, pissed about eating less your mind set is usually off. I would see what happens next week and then make changes.

Jordanbcool
03-22-2006, 03:06 PM
wow you shouldn't drop weigh like that, in one week. It looks like your diet is in check, cutting 600cals shouldnt make that big of a difference. Maybe your allergies + lack of sleep + less cals + bad mind set = less weight. I dont know what kind of mindset you were in before you worked out. But from personal experience, if your pissed from lack of sleep, pissed about eating less your mind set is usually off. I would see what happens next week and then make changes.

I really think its a combonation of what you listed but not because im mad. If anything i just feel "out of it". My dad describes the feeling as if throughout your entire day you feel as if your walking through a cloud. Your reflexes are slow, you have trouble concentrating and focusing. Things like watching a movie leave you tired simply because you have to look at something for so long. I kinda think sleep is the culprit but i took someone suggestion to not wake up with an alarm clock. Ever since that when i wake up i feel great, but after about an hour of walking around i feel sleepy again.

I'd like to state that i just recently got over (or so i thought) was a really nasty cold. Tis the season though because my allergies always give me problems this time every year like clockwork. I already took off two days of lifting last week to recover from this crap cold and i dont want to do it again. Maybe i just need to sleep for 15 hours one day and see how i do....I dont know..

-jordan

Holto
03-22-2006, 03:19 PM
Sounds a little like low blood sugar.

I think you are experiencing the dropoff from the glory of bulking to the morbidity of cutting.

ShockBoxer
03-22-2006, 03:21 PM
I felt like that. I had to up my carbs significantly to make the grogginess go away.

Jordanbcool
03-22-2006, 03:22 PM
Sounds a little like low blood sugar.

I think you are experiencing the dropoff from the glory of bulking to the morbidity of cutting.

Huh. Should i drink some kool-aid before workouts? lol

-jordan

Built
03-22-2006, 03:25 PM
You might find that by eating a so-called "balanced" meal about an hour to an hour and a half before you train, followed by a protein and carb meal right after, you avoid the flat training you're experiencing - gets it into you ahead of time, gives it a chance to digest and get into your blood stream for when you're training. Also, if you can afford the cals, try sipping a dilute whey and dex solution during your workout - like, 20 g protein and a tablespoon or so of dex, in a L of water. And of course, the pre-workout caffeine is a real boon.

Davidelmo
03-22-2006, 06:23 PM
Another vote for caffeine here :D:D:D

You can get it in pill form if you don't want to drink the energy drinks loaded with glucose on your cut.

Jorge Sanchez
03-22-2006, 07:26 PM
I have a bad workout every once in awhile. I usually don't worry about it too much and just make sure to work that much harder next time.

Jordanbcool
03-22-2006, 08:19 PM
I have a bad workout every once in awhile. I usually don't worry about it too much and just make sure to work that much harder next time.

I know but this is a pattern. Everyone has bad workouts, i mean you cant break records EVERYTIME. Then you'd be the hulk or ronnie coleman.....

Eh i just finished buying a crapload of supplements for this cut. I was hoping food would be the answer this time. Check out my fitday if you guys havent already. Should i up the carbs?

O yea and built sorry for not answering but usually right before a workout i eat this. Its always worked for me in the past but not so much this time..

8 egg whites
2 egg yolks
2 slices of whole wheat bread
1 cup diced onions and peppers
2 slices of cheese (american, provalone, etc.)
2 slices of turkey or ham (lean cut)
2 cups 1% milk
O yea, and some jam for the toast :)

I usually consume this about 3 hours before my workout. In the past its given me very explosive workouts but since i've been on this cut....well you know.

-jordan

Built
03-22-2006, 09:32 PM
3 hours ahead might be too far out - try 1.5-2 hours ahead.

Eat more carbs on workout days, less on non-workout days. How much - varies from individual to individual. But I like to overeat by as much as I can afford to on training days. That's why I go higher on the fats on my off-days - with the cals a lot lower, I need the appetite control afforded by keeping carbs well under 100g and fats as high as I have the calories for.

Jordanbcool
03-23-2006, 08:06 AM
3 hours ahead might be too far out - try 1.5-2 hours ahead.

Eat more carbs on workout days, less on non-workout days. How much - varies from individual to individual. But I like to overeat by as much as I can afford to on training days. That's why I go higher on the fats on my off-days - with the cals a lot lower, I need the appetite control afforded by keeping carbs well under 100g and fats as high as I have the calories for.

Since its rather large meal wise i usually cant eat it anymore then 2 1/2 hours before a workout or i feel sick while i lift.

Also i assume up the carbs on HIIIT days...

Thanks for the help everyone.

-jordan

Built
03-23-2006, 09:08 AM
Yep, feed HIIT like a lifting workout. Maybe split the pre-workout meal in two? Have a smaller "snack" an hour out from your workout?

JRX
03-23-2006, 09:30 AM
Whats your fat intake like??

Some people can supplement with udos oil ie a blend of omega 3 and 6s and get totally energised. Fats are pretty magical things if they are manipulated properly and in the right ratios.

Built
03-23-2006, 09:33 AM
Interesting about the Udo's. I'm careful to avoid balanced oils, personally - I get lots of 6 and 9 from my diet, so I supplement with 3.

JRX
03-23-2006, 09:47 AM
ok say you do weights first have 25g whey in water between weights and cardio. Then another 25g post cardio with either carbs in that shake or add more in your pwo meal personally id rather have the carbs one hour after the whey instead.

Thats what i do and i have kept hold of my muscle (well im only 70kg but i have kept what ive built).

Eszekial
03-23-2006, 10:19 AM
Just as a side note -

You went from eatings tons of cals to very few cals. You are probably not getting all the nutrients you once were.

I'm on my cut atm and went through this complete lack of energy problem as well. There were a few days there where I almost felt like I just wanted to pass out.

What did i do? I started taking multi-vitamins and vitamin c in mass. Also, i went on one refeed day which really helped me out. Your immune system is in a weakend state as well and you might be getting under the weather.

You might want to consider these things.

Jordanbcool
03-23-2006, 04:32 PM
Just as a side note -

You went from eatings tons of cals to very few cals. You are probably not getting all the nutrients you once were.

I'm on my cut atm and went through this complete lack of energy problem as well. There were a few days there where I almost felt like I just wanted to pass out.

What did i do? I started taking multi-vitamins and vitamin c in mass. Also, i went on one refeed day which really helped me out. Your immune system is in a weakend state as well and you might be getting under the weather.

You might want to consider these things.

I think i just need to up the carbs. I dunno i'll play around with things to see what works best. The caffiene sounds like a great idea and im going to try that first. Im about to go workout soon actually. Even though im eating alot lower calories then usual i like to stuff myself. Often i'll eat a huge salad when i dont feel full. Even though its not very many calories my body loves it. Thanks for the help guys, i'll tweak some things and let you guys know if im still having trouble.

-jordan

gator
03-23-2006, 04:38 PM
How come everyone here reccommends stims? I know caffene is very catabolic, which is very counter productive. I know on my cut I was still able to eat a small oatmeal + whey shake before working out.

Eszekial
03-23-2006, 05:11 PM
They are highly catabolic???

Link it!

Built
03-23-2006, 05:32 PM
Bump for the link, gator - I've not read this about stims. In fact, I seem to recall reading that EC is protective of LBM on a cut.

gator
03-23-2006, 05:41 PM
I dont have the link saved, but I'll try to find something on it soon.

Jordanbcool
03-23-2006, 06:59 PM
I dont have the link saved, but I'll try to find something on it soon.

Its well known that caffiene increases metabolism. I wouldnt go so far as to say its "catabolic" unless you drink insane amounts of (or consume i should say).

That being said. The caffiene really did the trick. I was able to do the weight i did on my bulk.

However i did get very very hot during my workout.

Meh.

Thanks everyone.

-jordan

Built
03-23-2006, 07:01 PM
Hey, that's great! And wow, do I know about the "hot" thing <fans self from hot flash... >. Did you try the dilute shake during your workout?

Jordanbcool
03-23-2006, 07:07 PM
Hey, that's great! And wow, do I know about the "hot" thing <fans self from hot flash... >. Did you try the dilute shake during your workout?

Actually i just drank a 12 oz cup of joe on the way to my gym. I took my last sip as i was heading out the car. Worked almost instantly.

Really nothing at all. I didnt put any sugar in it just some light powdered cream to make the taste bearable.

One thing i did do very differently was my workout was at night versus in the mornings. Maybe this affected it, as i had the whole day to build up carbs. Tomarrow im doing legs, and i'll be sure to drink even more coffee this time/eat alot of carbs. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

-jordan

Built
03-23-2006, 07:17 PM
Oh, training after a day's worth of food makes a HUGE difference! (for me, anyway!)

If you're stuck with AM workouts, try the during-workout whey with dex. You don't need much to make a really significant difference in your workout.

Slim Schaedle
03-23-2006, 07:37 PM
I know caffene is very catabolic, which is very counter productive.
Catabolic in terms of what though?

Catabolic in terms of stimulating epinephrine release that stimulates catabolism of triglycerides to form fatty acids which eventually produce ATP? Definately.

Catabolism refers to any reaction where a big molecule is converted to a smaller one so I'm not sure if that is where the confusion is.

I, like the others, am curious about what you said though.

brickt.
03-23-2006, 08:39 PM
C
Catabolism refers to any reaction where a big molecule is converted to a smaller one so I'm not sure if that is where the confusion is.


So catabolism could be:

Proteins ---> Amino Acids
Carbs -----> Glucose
Fats ------> Lipids ?

Slim Schaedle
03-23-2006, 08:46 PM
So catabolism could be:

Proteins ---> Amino Acids
Carbs -----> Glucose
Fats ------> Lipids ?
Well, more like

polypetides - amino acids
glycogen - glucose
triglycerides - fatty acids
ATP - ADP
starch - glucose
maltose - glucose
proteins - polypeptides

etc, etc etc.

Jordanbcool
03-23-2006, 09:46 PM
Oh, training after a day's worth of food makes a HUGE difference! (for me, anyway!)

If you're stuck with AM workouts, try the during-workout whey with dex. You don't need much to make a really significant difference in your workout.

Wont you get the whole "sick" feeling during workouts?

I work out really hard and if i drink to much water i often feel sick.

-jordan

Built
03-23-2006, 10:03 PM
You don't chug it - you sip it, between sets.

Eszekial
03-24-2006, 02:09 PM
Built, for PM work outs, (or any time for that matter) do you think it is beneficial/necessary to drink a protein/carb concoction -During- your workout. I've read that some of the "pro's" do this.

Thoughts?

gator
03-24-2006, 03:05 PM
[QUOTE=Eszekial]Built, for PM work outs, (or any time for that matter) do you think it is beneficial/necessary to drink a protein/carb concoction -During- your workout. I've read that some of the "pro's" do this.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE

Allthough I'm not built I would suggest you drink protein + BCAA's during your workout. When working out your body releases cortisol (I think the spelling is right) and this wants to break down your amino acids for energy. Also BCAA's and EAA's in the protein powder stimulate protein synthesis. Currently I just sip BCAA's but I think I'm going to try to put some protein in it too. Just to warn you most BCAA's taste crappy so I would find something that is flavored, however BCAA's are expensive so it's your call. Also this drink would replace any ETS your taking because you will feel no soreness the next day on this drink, you have my word on that. I would suggest xtend (watermelon) + a watermelon flavored protein powder, I heard primaforce substance WPI is good for this, but I haven't tried it yet due to it being $22 for 2 lbs lol However I might try that protein soon. I dont think carbs are necessary during your workout if you have your pre and post nutrition set.

deeder
03-24-2006, 06:09 PM
Well, more like

polypetides - amino acids
glycogen - glucose
triglycerides - fatty acids
ATP - ADP
starch - glucose
maltose - glucose
proteins - polypeptides

etc, etc etc.

Uhh...
Proteins = polypeptides
Carbs = glycogen = Starch = maltose

So really, brickt was mostly right:
Carbs ---> glucose
Proteins ---> amino acids
Fats ---> fatty acids


Jordan:
I looked at your fitday for today and I don't know if you're still having problems with energy... The macro breakdown looks pretty decent but I think you may be eating to many high GI carbs... ie: 2 cups of frosted mini-wheats and 4 cookies for 118 out of 279 grams of carbs.

I found while I was cutting that I crashed pretty hard after high GI carbs.

Slim Schaedle
03-24-2006, 07:07 PM
Uhh...
Proteins = polypeptides
Carbs = glycogen = Starch = maltose

So really, brickt was mostly right:
Carbs ---> glucose
Proteins ---> amino acids
Fats ---> fatty acids

I'm talking about catabolism.

Soo, uhhh, no.

Your carbs = glycogen = starch = maltose doesn't really make any sense.

Maybe I should have made note that my - was meant to be an arrow...as in how common reactions are written.

brickt.
03-24-2006, 07:11 PM
Well, more like

polypetides - amino acids
glycogen - glucose
triglycerides - fatty acids
ATP - ADP
starch - glucose
maltose - glucose
proteins - polypeptides

etc, etc etc.

So...

Proteins -> polypeptides -> amino acids
Carbs -> glycogen -> glucose
Fats -> tryglycerides -> fatty acids?

Slim Schaedle
03-24-2006, 07:33 PM
Yes, but the conversion of carbohydrates to glycogen is anabolic.

Glycogen is simply thousands of glucose molecules with a high degree of branching.

deeder
03-24-2006, 09:55 PM
I'm talking about catabolism.

Soo, uhhh, no.

Your carbs = glycogen = starch = maltose doesn't really make any sense.

Maybe I should have made note that my - was meant to be an arrow...as in how common reactions are written.

My point was that it is redundant to say that carbs change to this that changes to glucose, etc... as starch, glycogen, maltose and glucose are ALL carbohydrates... Organic molecules made up of a carbon bases with hydrogen.

Also, proteins are polypeptides... Long strings of amino acids.

Jordanbcool
03-24-2006, 10:26 PM
Uhh...
Proteins = polypeptides
Carbs = glycogen = Starch = maltose

So really, brickt was mostly right:
Carbs ---> glucose
Proteins ---> amino acids
Fats ---> fatty acids


Jordan:
I looked at your fitday for today and I don't know if you're still having problems with energy... The macro breakdown looks pretty decent but I think you may be eating to many high GI carbs... ie: 2 cups of frosted mini-wheats and 4 cookies for 118 out of 279 grams of carbs.

I found while I was cutting that I crashed pretty hard after high GI carbs.


Well mini wheats is a staple for me first thing when i wake up in the morning. If you look at all my fitdays i have it when i first wake up. I dunno, i just like the cereal. Kinda like what warm milk is to some people that cant fall asleep at night. If its a problem i can easily get rid of it. As for the cookies, well that was a "midnight" snack as i ate them at 3 A.M. Not the smartest thing to do on a cut but o well.

I've concluded that my probelms lie not in my diet but my sleep. As i've preached on and on about the importance of diet/sleep/workouts i myself (this past week atleast) havent been getting good sleep at all. I feel exhausted doing mundane tasks such as, staring at something for too long (a movie perhaps) running through my house, or even concentrating on homework. Even while i type this i feel exhausted. I dont know what to do. The only thing that keeps my workouts intense and from falling apart is the insane amounts of caffeine i've been consuming beforehand. I usually rely on sleeping pills to rest at night when i can, and even then i dont fall asleep for atleast an hour. Not healthy at all or productive for that matter. I cant seem to find time to fix the problem i.e. a time to rest for one full day. Tomarrow i work a double, and the day after that i have to get up at 7 for work at another job. When i do have a chance to rest i'm called lazy by my parents and told to work around the house.

I think sunday will be that resting day for me. Work will survive without me, and my parents wont ask me to do anything if im "sick".

On a "rest" day like that. I will be in bed ALL day. How should i adjust my diet then? I will hardly be doing any physical moving except watching rocky reruns (my hero). I normally eat 2500 on SS/rest days. Thoughts anyone?

Thanks for all the help by the way...

-jordan

Slim Schaedle
03-24-2006, 10:29 PM
My point was that it is redundant to say that carbs change to this that changes to glucose, etc... as starch, glycogen, maltose and glucose are ALL carbohydrates... Organic molecules made up of a carbon bases with hydrogen.

Also, proteins are polypeptides... Long strings of amino acids.
Proteins can be hydrolzed to dipeptides, tripeptides, oligopeptides, or amino acids, or combinations of the 4. This will depend on what enzyme(s) is binding and where it cleaves the protein.

My discussion of carbohydrates is not redundant. If you truly knew the insides and outs of the topic, you would know why.

(example: maltose certainly is not glycogen)

(carbohydrate is a rather generic scientific term, while we are on the topic)

Built
03-24-2006, 10:47 PM
Built, for PM work outs, (or any time for that matter) do you think it is beneficial/necessary to drink a protein/carb concoction -During- your workout. I've read that some of the "pro's" do this.

Thoughts?

Allthough I'm not built I would suggest you drink protein + BCAA's during your workout. When working out your body releases cortisol (I think the spelling is right) and this wants to break down your amino acids for energy. Also BCAA's and EAA's in the protein powder stimulate protein synthesis. Currently I just sip BCAA's but I think I'm going to try to put some protein in it too. Just to warn you most BCAA's taste crappy so I would find something that is flavored, however BCAA's are expensive so it's your call. Also this drink would replace any ETS your taking because you will feel no soreness the next day on this drink, you have my word on that. I would suggest xtend (watermelon) + a watermelon flavored protein powder, I heard primaforce substance WPI is good for this, but I haven't tried it yet due to it being $22 for 2 lbs lol However I might try that protein soon. I dont think carbs are necessary during your workout if you have your pre and post nutrition set.

Gator, I hadn't considered protein plus BCAAs sans dextrose. I just stick to dilute whey with a bit of dex - I've noticed I have a lot more energy to get through my workouts when I do this. And yes, I've read this, too. In fact, I first read about it here (http://www.muscletech.com/NUTRITION/HIGH_PERFORMANCE_NUTRITION/ISSUE_2/index.shtml) (when Erik Ledin used to work for MuscleTech he wrote some very good articles for them).

Read "Practical Steps" in this article.

gator
03-25-2006, 12:44 AM
I'll check out that article, you dont get a crash of any sort drinking dextrose during your workout?

Built
03-25-2006, 12:54 AM
No, but it's really dilute, and I sip it through the workout.

brickt.
03-25-2006, 02:21 AM
Builts on a very low carb diet, and I doubt 30g of fast carbs would make her crash.

Built
03-25-2006, 02:25 AM
Actually, my diet isn't uber-low carb. Usually about 200 or so grams of carb on lifting days, under a hundred on non-lifting days. I also don't do as much dex as is suggested - generally about a tablespoon with a scoop of whey (24g protein).

brickt.
03-25-2006, 02:38 AM
Ah, I was under the assumption it was more along the lines of 100-150~ on lifting days.

So, in conclusion.. um, carbs are tasty.

Built
03-25-2006, 02:50 AM
I go that low when I'm cutting, tis true.

Carbs are totally yummy. <covets sweet potato>