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View Full Version : does cardio really burn that much muscle??



charles_316
04-08-2006, 09:39 AM
is it really that bad for gaining muscle??

http://www.buildingbodies.ca/Cardio/cardio-muscle-loss.shtml

i searched google and found soooo much info on this.... i never know whether or not to actually do cardio! i cant weigh in the pros and cons cuz there are too many different opinions

MixmasterNash
04-08-2006, 10:02 AM
Long, slow cardio can be catabolic.

But there is nothing wrong with doing cardio for 30 minutes or even an hour as long as you're eating right.

charles_316
04-08-2006, 10:39 AM
like high intensity? or jus jogging?

D Breyer
04-08-2006, 10:51 AM
i think HIIT is a lot more enjoyable than long boring jogging

personally i do 1:00 sprints followed by 30 second rest... then halfway through i switch to 30 second sprints followed by 15 second rest

BaggedE30
04-08-2006, 01:23 PM
i use the x trainer for cardio, i always keep to a really slow pace and keep my heart rate at about 132 ( im 23 yo 253lb ..fatty) . Should i up the pace abit and get my heartrate to liek 160? i dont want to be burning muscle

Built
04-08-2006, 01:55 PM
Another issue to consider is the conversion of fast twitch muscles to slow-twitch analogues


(Original pubmed source (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11296997&dopt=Abstract))
Long periods of low-intensity/steady state cardio tend to convince some fast-twitch fibers to convert to slow-twitch fibers (or at least take on some slow twitch qualities). Conventional slow, long-duration cardio workouts tend to "overtrain" the fast-twitch muscle fibers and to convert the intermediate muscle fibers to slow-twitch suitors. HIIT prevents this from occurring, preserving your muscle growth potential.

JamesBOMB
04-08-2006, 02:06 PM
i use the x trainer for cardio, i always keep to a really slow pace and keep my heart rate at about 132 ( im 23 yo 253lb ..fatty) . Should i up the pace abit and get my heartrate to liek 160? i dont want to be burning muscle


James get on aim! I stay in the 140-148 range when I do my cardio. Being fat, I wouldnt worry about holding on to muscle, but of losing the fat!

Goodwinm
04-08-2006, 04:01 PM
Doing 40 meter sprints is gonna help the power of your body a lot more! Especially in the squating department as the explosive power you need to sprint will contribute itself to your squatting. (works for me anywayz)

DMN
04-08-2006, 05:23 PM
I wouldnt worry about holding on to muscle, but of losing the fat!

You should ALWAYS have a concern for muscle. Keep as much as you can while shedding the fat, or the chances are you will be fat again in the future.

JamesBOMB
04-08-2006, 06:42 PM
You should ALWAYS have a concern for muscle. Keep as much as you can while shedding the fat, or the chances are you will be fat again in the future.

thats the biggest crock of crap i have ever heard. how is cutting down while loosing some muscle going to make you fat in the future? If you become fat in the future its your own fault.

homeboy7600
04-08-2006, 06:54 PM
when, besides in the morning, is the best time to do cardio?

brickt.
04-08-2006, 07:21 PM
thats the biggest crock of crap i have ever heard. how is cutting down while loosing some muscle going to make you fat in the future? If you become fat in the future its your own fault.

Lowered metabolism, for one.

This game is about building muscle, not loosing it. If I were to sacrifice muscle for fat loss, I would be like every other person looking to lose weight on the treadmill.

Built
04-08-2006, 07:30 PM
thats the biggest crock of crap i have ever heard. how is cutting down while loosing some muscle going to make you fat in the future? If you become fat in the future its your own fault.

Hmmm...


First time I got fat, I dieted way too harshly and did a ton of cardio. Screwed up my metabolism so bad I spent the next 20 years struggling with my weight. It wasn't until I started lifting that I was able to get my metabolism working again, and even so, I still struggle with insulin resistance.


Just going by my personal experience, but I'd advise anyone who's starting out already fat to take advantage of the accidental bulk they're been on and cut properly from the get-go.

Jordanbcool
04-08-2006, 08:19 PM
Hmmm...


First time I got fat, I dieted way too harshly and did a ton of cardio. Screwed up my metabolism so bad I spent the next 20 years struggling with my weight. It wasn't until I started lifting that I was able to get my metabolism working again, and even so, I still struggle with insulin resistance.


Just going by my personal experience, but I'd advise anyone who's starting out already fat to take advantage of the accidental bulk they're been on and cut properly from the get-go.

I did the same exact thing. Really messed up myself.....lost 15 pounds of muscle :(

-jordan

ArchAngel777
04-08-2006, 08:51 PM
Lowered metabolism, for one.

This game is about building muscle, not loosing it. If I were to sacrifice muscle for fat loss, I would be like every other person looking to lose weight on the treadmill.

Not sure if this has been addressed, but that 50 calories per pound of muscle = crap. That was a myth way back then or what not... The muscle mass you have only contributes a very small amount of calories to retain and maintain. I believe it was figured at 6 calories per pound of muscle (not LBM).

Now, that isn't to say I think people should be losing LBM. Not at all... However, depending on how fat you are, sometimes losing some good with a lot of bad is perfectly acceptable.

I think what James was calling BS was the thoughts that having less muscle mass means you burn a lot less calories. You do burn less, but it is rather insignificant or at most, minor.

Oh, well... Just throwing that out there.

charles_316
04-08-2006, 08:52 PM
damn...

good thing i cut down my cardio to almost zero after my FIRST post here... built advised me that im doing too much cardio when i first joined...
thanks ;)

Built
04-08-2006, 08:54 PM
You not only burn fewer calories, but you become more insulin resistant.

And more efficient.

Something to keep in mind it's not just the muscle sitting around burning calories - it's the muscle you get to use and destroy and invest in rebuilding later on when you go home and sleep - I'm sure you get a far greater "afterburn" advantage than I do when we train, Archangle, simply because you have more muscle to wreck.

ArchAngel777
04-08-2006, 09:03 PM
I'm sure you get a far greater "afterburn" advantage than I do when we train, Archangle, simply because you have more muscle to wreck.

I am having a hard time understanding this. It probably isn't your fault that I cannot comprehend. I am a bit slow today... Can you elaborate or explain it in laymans terms? Thanks.

Also, I am not sure if any of you are familiar with Tom Venuto, but he provides a great source of information on cardio. He is a pretty impressive natural body builder and cardio is the foundation of his cut. But then again, he subcribes to eat more burn more theory, which seems to work for him... Of course only because calorie intake is less than calorie out.

Built
04-08-2006, 09:06 PM
Okay, well, you and I both train at the gym.

I squat 155 in reps. You squat, like, double that (more?) in reps. We both bust ourselves training, but you're bigger. More muscle.

Which one of us wrecks more muscle?

Which one of us gets to eat more food to fix the damage?

And I'm well familiar with BFFM. I have a number of his burnouts on one of my other boards. They got lean, but had to overtrain to do it on his program.

ArchAngel777
04-08-2006, 09:14 PM
Okay, well, you and I both train at the gym.

I squat 155 in reps. You squat, like, double that (more?) in reps. We both bust ourselves training, but you're bigger. More muscle.

Which one of us wrecks more muscle?

Which one of us gets to eat more food to fix the damage?

And I'm well familiar with BFFM. I have a number of his burnouts on one of my other boards. They got lean, but had to overtrain to do it on his program.

All good points and I agree with them. But, if were comparing myself, to say... myself, then the difference would be a bit less. For instance, if I did lose say, 3 pounds of muscle while losing 56.2 pounds of fat, isn't that acceptable? I think it is. I also don't think the end result would be much different on the weight I can put up or how much energy I need to rebuilt. Certainly if I lost 20 pounds of LBM, were talking some serious damage here. If I lost 30 or 40 LBM and I became skinny fat, we have some serious issues going on. However, for most cases, I don't think it is that big of a deal to freak out with.

I also think that muscle once had is muscle easily gained back. I am sure a bulk would regain it relatively quickly, in fact I know it does. I remember back in my teens I did everything the WRONG way... Trust me, I know this... I learned down to super trim and ended up at a nice lean 165. But I lost a LOT of muscle mass... However, I decided to pigout again and filled right back out in a matter of months.

But as usual, I contest that you are right in your advice. It works, it is tried and true and, of course, you have worked with others.

Edit ** Forgot to comment on the BFFM burn-outs. First of all, that is too bad. I think you can burn out on any program that you take overboard, personally. Are all these women burnouts? I suppose that could have something to do with it. Since he is a body building, he does suggest some things that normal people would burn-out and perhaps he shouldn't have that in his book. For instance, cardio 2X a day, morning at night. Something I would NEVER do, however... I suppose some people would. You will become burned out, especially if you do that for long periods of time. Its a shame though.... Sorry to hear about those ladies who became burned out. Probably best if they had just not purchased the book and took your advice (being serious).

Jordanbcool
04-08-2006, 09:17 PM
Just to go out and say it. You have to figure how many calories one extra pound of muscle actually burns....Im pretty sure it burns more then 6 but not positive so dont quote me....Also you have to consider that its an extra (even if it is) 6 cals. a day...or hour...or whatever. Muscle may not burn much when its at rest but it burns a crapload more then fat.

You also cant curl with fat cells.

Just trying to show how useful muscle is in keeping metabolism high.

-jordan

Built
04-08-2006, 09:18 PM
Gaining fat is EASY. Even LOSING fat is easy - compared with putting on muscle.

Harder for me than for you, of course.

Fundamentally, I agree with you - for a significantly overfat person, losing LBM is NOT a huge concern. As you become leaner, you have to worry about this more and more.

All I can say is I'm glad I started lifting the last time I tried to "lose weight".

ArchAngel777
04-08-2006, 09:25 PM
Just to go out and say it. You have to figure how many calories one extra pound of muscle actually burns....Im pretty sure it burns more then 6 but not positive so dont quote me....Also you have to consider that its an extra (even if it is) 6 cals. a day...or hour...or whatever. Muscle may not burn much when its at rest but it burns a crapload more then fat.

You also cant curl with fat cells.

Just trying to show how useful muscle is in keeping metabolism high.

-jordan

Jordan, I am certainly aware of how useful muscle mass is. But thanks for posting.

Built
04-08-2006, 09:30 PM
Edit ** Forgot to comment on the BFFM burn-outs. First of all, that is too bad. I think you can burn out on any program that you take overboard, personally. Are all these women burnouts? I suppose that could have something to do with it. Since he is a body building, he does suggest some things that normal people would burn-out and perhaps he shouldn't have that in his book. For instance, cardio 2X a day, morning at night. Something I would NEVER do, however... I suppose some people would. You will become burned out, especially if you do that for long periods of time. Its a shame though.... Sorry to hear about those ladies who became burned out. Probably best if they had just not purchased the book and took your advice (being serious).

About half the BFFM burnouts on my little board were actually men. And a man at my gym who I am currently helping with his diet did the BFFM thing a few years back, and it worked, but he lost a lot of LBM and was VERY hungry while he did that programme.

Thanks for the props. The stuff I've learned has been from my own mistakes, as well as the mistakes of others. Saved me from having to make ALL of them myself.

DMN
04-09-2006, 05:59 AM
Just going by my personal experience, but I'd advise anyone who's starting out already fat to take advantage of the accidental bulk they're been on and cut properly from the get-go.

The "Accidental Bulk"..... I'm stealing that Built. Very, very good!

Built
04-09-2006, 11:26 PM
I stole it from Tholian. Enjoy.

:)

djreef
04-13-2006, 12:43 PM
Hey Arch -

That's gotta be 6 cal. per hour concerning LBM, right? I'd have a hard time believing 6 a day.

DJ

dw06wu
04-13-2006, 03:33 PM
Even LOSING fat is easy - compared with putting on muscle.

Harder for me than for you, of course.
I'm gonna go ahead and say that its much easier for me to get strong than it is for me to get ripped. My point being that I've been a beast but I've never even come close to abs because of all this ****ing stubborn fat that just doesnt seem to go away no matter what the hell I'm doing.

JustLost
04-15-2006, 10:30 AM
Hmmm...


First time I got fat, I dieted way too harshly and did a ton of cardio. Screwed up my metabolism so bad I spent the next 20 years struggling with my weight. It wasn't until I started lifting that I was able to get my metabolism working again, and even so, I still struggle with insulin resistance.


Just going by my personal experience, but I'd advise anyone who's starting out already fat to take advantage of the accidental bulk they're been on and cut properly from the get-go.


Nothing like a 20 year bulk followed by a 2 year cut. *grins*

Built
04-15-2006, 12:29 PM
*grins back*