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jazer80
04-12-2006, 09:12 AM
i smoke pretty regularly, and it hampers my lung capacity (clearly). i am currently tryign to stay lean (around 6/7%bf right now @ 155lbs), and add a little muscle. i've been trying to do cardio for gpp work and to help my body better deal with the smoking i do.

1) HIIT is designed for fat loss, right?

2) at what point (minutes) is something long enough to be a good heart workout? i know i get a good cardio workout lifting weights, but i've been running like 4 minute laps around my apartment complex, and am struggling to even make the damn lap. it's pathetic

3) will increasing my lap time help with my training? like make me have higher pain threshold or better oxygen capabilities or something? the only thing i know it would help with for sure would be fat loss/keeping fat in check, but i don't really put fat on in the first place, ever, so that's a moot point to me.


(i am always stuck here, i go back and forth between short, high intensity running or boxing (less than 10min boxing, less than 5 running, which pretty much leave me ready to puke).


i guess i wnat my gpp to be better. i'm strong, and i look good. but if i ever had to run for a real reason, forget about it. i'd make it a block or two and keel over. i hate that. also, i hate getting winded real easily on dumb things (stairs). i don't know if i should be looking at high intensity, low time stuff (sprinting, carpushing/pulling, boxing), or lower intesity, longer time (running with walking breaks for like 30-45 minutes maybe, once i could get to that level)

Clifford Gillmore
04-12-2006, 09:25 AM
1) HIIT is intensive cardio vascular conditioning, it burns energy during the process. As far as fat loss is concerned, you can eat more on a cut. Thats it.

2) A good workout is a good work out, if you feel it after 4 minutes, you have worked your heart well. Just like weights, build up slowly.

3) Depends on what you want to achieve with your training. HIIT is not about distance travelled.

4) I don't look good, I'm not strong, but I can run with a forequater of beef on my back till the end of time. Conditioning your heart is very important.

jazer80
04-12-2006, 09:30 AM
1) HIIT is intensive cardio vascular conditioning, it burns energy during the process. As far as fat loss is concerned, you can eat more on a cut. Thats it.

2) A good workout is a good work out, if you feel it after 4 minutes, you have worked your heart well. Just like weights, build up slowly.

3) Depends on what you want to achieve with your training. HIIT is not about distance travelled.

4) I don't look good, I'm not strong, but I can run with a forequater of beef on my back till the end of time. Conditioning your heart is very important.


do you think it would be better for me to do things like the short burst, high intensity stuff (5-10min max boxing, running, pushing) or maybe do those activities, but do lower intensity and make it last longer, or do same intensity, but do like 1 or 2 minute intervals, to get more total time done?

Anthony
04-12-2006, 09:46 AM
1) HIIT is designed for fat loss, right?Not necessarily. HIIT does everything that low intensity steady state cardio does (vo2max, lactate threshold, etc). The fat loss benefit (and there is a very real benefit), comes after you actually finish the workout.


2) at what point (minutes) is something long enough to be a good heart workout? i know i get a good cardio workout lifting weights, but i've been running like 4 minute laps around my apartment complex, and am struggling to even make the damn lap. it's pathetic3-5 minutes of FRAN will give you a damn good cardiovascular workout. But I think you should think about the overall picture and not one particular session.


3) will increasing my lap time help with my training? like make me have higher pain threshold or better oxygen capabilities or something? the only thing i know it would help with for sure would be fat loss/keeping fat in check, but i don't really put fat on in the first place, ever, so that's a moot point to me.Increaseing your vo2max and LT will definitely help your training, but there's a point of diminishing returns. You don't need a vo2max/LT as high as Lance Armstrong to crank out 20 rep squats, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.


i guess i wnat my gpp to be better. i'm strong, and i look good. but if i ever had to run for a real reason, forget about it. i'd make it a block or two and keel over. i hate that. also, i hate getting winded real easily on dumb things (stairs). i don't know if i should be looking at high intensity, low time stuff (sprinting, carpushing/pulling, boxing), or lower intesity, longer time (running with walking breaks for like 30-45 minutes maybe, once i could get to that level)I would use HIIT for the majority and throw in a 5-10k run/row or 20k bike ride every once in awhile. You will be surprised at how well sprinting prepares you for slow/long distance runs.

jazer80
04-12-2006, 12:53 PM
Not necessarily. HIIT does everything that low intensity steady state cardio does (vo2max, lactate threshold, etc). The fat loss benefit (and there is a very real benefit), comes after you actually finish the workout.

3-5 minutes of FRAN will give you a damn good cardiovascular workout. But I think you should think about the overall picture and not one particular session.

Increaseing your vo2max and LT will definitely help your training, but there's a point of diminishing returns. You don't need a vo2max/LT as high as Lance Armstrong to crank out 20 rep squats, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.

I would use HIIT for the majority and throw in a 5-10k run/row or 20k bike ride every once in awhile. You will be surprised at how well sprinting prepares you for slow/long distance runs.
i'm am sooo ignorant at cardio. what does FRAN mean?

so you're saying that there is really no benefit whatsoever to doing a longer, lower intensity session compared to doing shorter/high intensity? if taht's what you mean, you made my day.... i HATE jogging for extended periods, i like short / intense stuff, nevermind that i really don't have time for an extra hour or two of cardio weekly, but the 10 minute sessions once or twice a week work well

Anthony
04-12-2006, 01:00 PM
There are some benefits. Slow paced jogging would be good active recovery. Or if your sport dictates you run long distances, it's probably not a bad idea to do them at least once in awhile so you know how your body reacts to the repetitive impact you won't experience with sprints.

As for Fran, that's a name of a workout.

95lbs thrusters (start in a clean position, front squat, then push press = 1 rep) x 21 reps
Chinups x 21 reps
95lbs thrusters x 15 reps
Chinups x 15 reps
95lbs thrusters x 9 reps
Chinups x 9 reps

Go for time. Sub 5 minutes is good. Sub 3 minutes is unreal.

jazer80
04-12-2006, 08:15 PM
chinups are palm facing away right? if so, then damn, 21 wouuld be my max, and i'm decently strong for my size...... when i'm benching for strength, i pushed up to 285 weighing a scratch under 165; can most people here even do 21 chinups?

that's a sick workout tho. i do that type of stuff all the time in my apt., tho not structured. i like teh idea of structuring it and doing it for time, that is an awesome idea that i'm gonna use. i typically do like 10 minutes of 'activity' when i do mixes, and just bounce between boxing, front db squats, db standing shoulder press, curls, wahtever. that fran thing sounds cool.

(edit: my quick wikipedia research seems to say that chinup is the easier one where your hands face you; if so, then yeah, 21 ain't bad.... damn, i really can't wait to try fran or my own.)


anthony, earlier you said

"3-5 minutes of FRAN will give you a damn good cardiovascular workout. But I think you should think about the overall picture and not one particular session."

what do you mean by that? my whole reason for doing this is the overall: i smoke pretty regularly, so i want cardio conditioning to at least help myself fight the damn stuff. i want to be more 'athletic' overall. i don't just like being strong and good looking, i want to be athletic all around. all around conditioning gpp work just seems to have unlimited benefits in my eyes. the only thing i'm not really into is the fat loss aspect, as i've never ever lost sight of my six pack since i was like 8)

ArchAngel777
04-12-2006, 08:37 PM
There are some benefits. Slow paced jogging would be good active recovery. Or if your sport dictates you run long distances, it's probably not a bad idea to do them at least once in awhile so you know how your body reacts to the repetitive impact you won't experience with sprints.

As for Fran, that's a name of a workout.

95lbs thrusters (start in a clean position, front squat, then push press = 1 rep) x 21 reps
Chinups x 21 reps
95lbs thrusters x 15 reps
Chinups x 15 reps
95lbs thrusters x 9 reps
Chinups x 9 reps

Go for time. Sub 5 minutes is good. Sub 3 minutes is unreal.

Just reading that workout nearly gave me cardiac arrest... I think it already gave my heart a workout, and a good one at that.

Anthony
04-13-2006, 03:37 AM
chinups are palm facing away right?
I don't make a distinction between hand placement. You can do these any way you like ... pronated, supinated, neutral, whatever. Just get your chin over the bar. And remember, all 21 thrusters before you start your 21 chins, all 21 chins before you start your 15 thrusters, etc.


"3-5 minutes of FRAN will give you a damn good cardiovascular workout. But I think you should think about the overall picture and not one particular session."
Well, just like your weight training has many variables (exercises, sets, reps, time, nutrition, sleep/rest, etc, etc), so does your conditioning work. Or at least it should. Spend more time incorporating some HIIT principles into your overall routine and it will be more beneficial than a few sessions here and there.

I guess the obvious answer is to quit smoking. You'll probably never acheive the conditioning you want if you smoke on a regular basis.

ericg
04-13-2006, 06:09 AM
One more note on Fran. Those reps of 21 do not have to be done in one set, you can break them ie: 8/8/5, then move on to the next exercise.

jazer80
04-14-2006, 08:38 AM
hand position makes a big difference to me in terms of how quickly i could bang out like 20 tho, so if i'm going for time i'd stay with palms facing me

jazer80
04-15-2006, 07:16 PM
any others besides fran? i was gonna just design my own, but i kidn of like the idea of being able to see how i do relatively to others.

anthony, when going for time on fran i'd imagien most would us do pullups w/ their hands facing them

also, 95lbs thrusters basically means i hold 95lbs (or two 47.5 dbs) on my shoulders/upper pecs, then front squat it, and then once standign again i do a db military press? am i allowed to use momentum from teh front squat to assist my military press, or do i go squat:pause:press ?

jazer80
04-15-2006, 07:18 PM
I guess the obvious answer is to quit smoking. You'll probably never acheive the conditioning you want if you smoke on a regular basis.
nah, i will, because the levels of what i want to achieve take into account other factors in my life. i'm not a typical bodybuilder/athlete by any means, and am not concerned with 100% of what i'm capable of, but rather 100% of waht i'm capable assuming several life factors that are givens

Anthony
04-16-2006, 08:14 AM
any others besides fran? i was gonna just design my own, but i kidn of like the idea of being able to see how i do relatively to others.
www.crossfit.com - enjoy!


anthony, when going for time on fran i'd imagien most would us do pullups w/ their hands facing them
- most do pullups with hands facing away when going for time. Look into kipping and you'll understand why.


also, 95lbs thrusters basically means i hold 95lbs (or two 47.5 dbs) on my shoulders/upper pecs, then front squat it, and then once standign again i do a db military press? am i allowed to use momentum from teh front squat to assist my military press, or do i go squatauseress ?
- it's one fluid motion. This is the exact workout: http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/fran-greg_annie.wmv Notice Annie does palms away and greg does palms facing. He's the only one I've seen do palms facing on a regular basis.

jazer80
04-16-2006, 09:08 AM
www.crossfit.com - enjoy!


- most do pullups with hands facing away when going for time. Look into kipping and you'll understand why.


- it's one fluid motion. This is the exact workout: http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/fran-greg_annie.wmv Notice Annie does palms away and greg does palms facing. He's the only one I've seen do palms facing on a regular basis.
but i bet his times are killer (you're not suggesting that it's about the same difficulty either way are you? i haven't done palms facing me in a long while, but i recall it being much easier. maybe i just didn't have lats then?

i had found that crossfit site. found their exercises list, and was gonna poke through there for ideas to make my own, but didn't know they had other pre-arranged routines. i like being competitive with others besides myself, and my training partner is more like a kid who i'm training, so there's no real 'competition' between us by any means

Anthony
04-16-2006, 10:56 AM
Greg has a killer time DESPITE his grip, not because of it. If you research the kip (as I suggested already!) you'll understand why it's faster/easier to kip with a palms away grip. You're not just pulling yourself up, you also push yourself away from the bar. Nearly everyone who kips will do it palms away.

jazer80
04-16-2006, 01:27 PM
i don't see why kipping would be easier to do if you were palms away, but i'll take your word for it. i'd love to try, but my pullup bar is out of commission, as i've been using it to hang my 80lbs heavy bag over for some time, adn that **** is almost looking like a 'u' now. wouldn't risk an enemies life on that doing 'kipping' (that's basically just a term for 'cheating' right? i couldn't find any real definition, but i see it being used as just using body language to get up there; like 'kipping' on barbell curls would be what most kids in the gym are doing...right?)

damn, i don't wanna start talking smack now, but i can't wait to time myself on this. unfortunately my pullup bar is messed and i only have 60lbs db's, so my times are irrelevant and only guesses at best. i dunno, may be much harder than it looks (what's your time?)

Anthony
04-16-2006, 01:42 PM
Kipping allows more work to be done in less time, thus increasing power output. It is also a full-body coordination movement when performed correctly, which applies more functionally to real-life application of pulling skills. Last, but not least, the hip motion of an effective kip mirrors the motion of the olympic lifts/kettlebell swings, adding to it's function as a posterior-chain developer."

My best time on Fran is 3:51 as rx'd. My chinups have improved quite a bit, so I know I have better in me, but it's just a matter of getting all the variables right.

Good luck. :)

jazer80
04-17-2006, 10:48 AM
okay, the fiance didn't cringe too hard at a second pullup bar in the apt., so i'll be playing with this, only i'll have to use (2) 62.5lbs dbs (125lbs total) instead of 135 bb (will this give me an advantage or a disadvantage? i know at the same weight i'd rather throw a bb than two db's, but it's hard to say how much weight could be dropped before the disadvantage is overshadowed. opinions?)

this is gonna be interesting, i'm gonna try a few times before posting some results, i wanna practice a lil first :)

anthony, when you trying again?



btw, what the hell is up with that music in that video? funny stuff, not sure if i could do good time listening to that kind of stuff (OMG they play the same damn song in a different video depicting FRAN in a compltely different gym....is this a midwest company or someting?)

jazer80
04-17-2006, 10:51 AM
damn, i don't wanna start talking smack now, but i can't wait to time myself on this.
haah worst assumption ever. damn near collapsed after going for the first 19 quick ones w/ db's. did i say sub 3? i meant 13..... what?

jazer80
04-17-2006, 10:52 AM
i can't BELIEVE how good that girl did, i've never seen a girl man-handle a 135 like that in mylife (not trying to be sexist, i'm just dead serious, never seen it)

Anthony
04-17-2006, 11:12 AM
hahahaha. You did read my post, right?


95lbs thrusters (start in a clean position, front squat, then push press = 1 rep) x 21 reps
Chinups x 21 reps
95lbs thrusters x 15 reps
Chinups x 15 reps
95lbs thrusters x 9 reps
Chinups x 9 reps

You use 95lbs, not 135. The videos are showing bumper plates, which have the same diamter as a 45.

Sucka.

jazer80
04-18-2006, 09:54 AM
hahahaha. You did read my post, right?



You use 95lbs, not 135. The videos are showing bumper plates, which have the same diamter as a 45.

Sucka.
hahhahaa yo i've made everyone who's entered my apt. watch that movie, and just a second ago on its tenth showing i realized that there was a difference between weight shown and weight quoted.

i can see hers are bumper plates, but his def look like real 45's, maybe bumpers that just look real? or compensating because he's bigger?



either way, i just bought the pullup bar yesterday (the second one in that doorframe, but that's okay). i got the maintenance kid advising me on how to best hoook it up so that i don't kill myself doing those swinging pullups, so now i gg long titanium screws, but that ****'ll be up real soon. i'm guessing a scratch under 5 minutes my first few attempts, but i think i'll progress fast here.




now that we're talking 95lbs, i CAN do that weight, only i can only use db's. how much of a difference is this? is this an advantage or a disadvantage?

Anthony
04-18-2006, 10:01 AM
Greg was using 95lbs. Annie was more than likely using 65lbs. Almost all bumper plates greater than 10lbs are the same diameter as a 45lbs plate.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "maybe bumpers that look real?" Bumper plates are real. lol.

Anyway, using dumbbells will be a slight disadvantage.

jazer80
04-18-2006, 08:42 PM
Greg was using 95lbs. Annie was more than likely using 65lbs. Almost all bumper plates greater than 10lbs are the same diameter as a 45lbs plate.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "maybe bumpers that look real?" Bumper plates are real. lol.

Anyway, using dumbbells will be a slight disadvantage.
i meant greg's looked like regular 45 plates.


how much of a disadvantage? i know you can't give me raw figures here, but i want to begin this and 'compete' for time, so what weight would you make the dumbbells (including handles) for me to approximate 95lbs total weight bb? i'm installing my pullup bar tomorrow, i can't wait to start trying this routine, i've never been this excited for a workout plan before


(do you think you could actually gain muscle doing this workout? like if you did it 3 times in a day, maybe 3 days a week? although it is crosstraining, isn't it kind of like real lifting too?)

Anthony
04-19-2006, 03:39 AM
Yeah, they look like regular 45's, but watch them bounce when he tosses it!

Use the 45lbs dumbbells and see how you do. That's 5lbs less, but you also have to factor in the difference for balance, etc.

I guess it would be possible to gain muscle if you continued to increase the weight, but this particular workout (Fran) isn't really about strength/size. And you'd have to be pretty crazy to do Fran 9 times a week ... lol. Give it a run before you make that decision!

jazer80
04-19-2006, 09:59 AM
Yeah, they look like regular 45's, but watch them bounce when he tosses it!

Use the 45lbs dumbbells and see how you do. That's 5lbs less, but you also have to factor in the difference for balance, etc.

I guess it would be possible to gain muscle if you continued to increase the weight, but this particular workout (Fran) isn't really about strength/size. And you'd have to be pretty crazy to do Fran 9 times a week ... lol. Give it a run before you make that decision!
no no no no...... i was just asking theoretically. i know people who have no muscle, no wind, and lots of fat. this seems like a very simple suggestion to that kind of person who isn't capable of staying on any real routine. not necessarily fran, but something along those lines.

i'm just gonna incorporate fran into my training for a little bit, get my time to my liking, then devise other 'FRAN-like' routines. i like the idea that i can get the benefits of long distance running, which i refuse to do, by doing fun, quick, high-intensity anaerobics (?).

jazer80
04-21-2006, 02:33 PM
well, the pullup bar is in (installed securely enough that i'm confident to do 'kipping' pullups. (3) 2'' steel bolts on each end, right in a stud, thing should be a rock).

i tried today, and damn, couldn't even finish. i mean i could've, but it would've been like 15 minutes haha. i did the 21 thrusters w/ 42.5lbs db's (can only get so precise w/ my setup), and was about to pass out after that (i haven't been doing leg training at all lately). i pushed myself to hit the pullups after, and couldn't hit the 21 w/o having to stop. i stopped once, then completed the 21, at which point the dizziness was too much and needed to stop.

hopefully in a couple weeks the times will get respectable.

Keith
04-21-2006, 03:19 PM
Wow, I cant wait to start this while cutting in a couple weeks. This looks awesome! Just watching the video makes myself want to try it out n see what time I get. Not saying it will be close 3 minutes lol but im definately curious to what time I could get.