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fixationdarknes
04-16-2006, 06:31 PM
I haven't lifted for almost 6 months now. And sadly, I still stand without a gym. I decided that instead of not doing anything until I get a gym (which could very well end up being 6 months from now), I would try out some Crossfit.

I checked out some of the CF training days, and was kind of worried that it might not be enough standing alone as it is...

e.g. Sunday 060416--> Front Squat 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 reps

-Is Crossfit supposed to be a standalone training program, or is it meant to be added to an athlete's daily routine that he already does (e.g. martial arts, swimming, rock climbing)?

-Perhaps I should incorporate more stuff along with Crossfit WoDs? Or is it alone enough to do?

MixmasterNash
04-16-2006, 07:20 PM
He's alive!



I haven't lifted for almost 6 months now. And sadly, I still stand without a gym. I decided that instead of not doing anything until I get a gym (which could very well end up being 6 months from now), I would try out some Crossfit.

*** who needs a gym to work out? ***

I checked out some of the CF training days, and was kind of worried that it might not be enough standing alone as it is...

*** it definately is enough for almost anyone ***

e.g. Sunday 060416--> Front Squat 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 reps

*** Those a maximal weights, with a goal of a PR ***

-Is Crossfit supposed to be a standalone training program, or is it meant to be added to an athlete's daily routine that he already does (e.g. martial arts, swimming, rock climbing)?

*** either one! ***

-Perhaps I should incorporate more stuff along with Crossfit WoDs? Or is it alone enough to do?

*** go for it, but just try the WODs for a while ***


Crossfit is weight training, among other things, and you need some basic weight equipment for many of the WODs.

Sensei
04-16-2006, 07:23 PM
-Is Crossfit supposed to be a standalone training program, or is it meant to be added to an athlete's daily routine that he already does (e.g. martial arts, swimming, rock climbing)? -Perhaps I should incorporate more stuff along with Crossfit WoDs? Or is it alone enough to do?
Enough for what? It really depends on your goals. If you are looking to increase your limit strength, then it's probably not the best plan.

Anthony
04-16-2006, 07:25 PM
Crossfit is a great foundation, but a lot of people use it in combination with specific sport training. You can't look at one workout and decide whether it is enough or not. Try it for 2 months with honest enthusiasm and dedication and then you'll have your answer.

Anthony
04-16-2006, 07:27 PM
If you are looking to increase your limit strength, then it's probably not the best plan.

Limit strength in what? I think more people should work on their foundation before trying to focus on specific lifts. But that's just me.....

Sensei
04-16-2006, 07:33 PM
Limit strength in what?Limit strength as in a 1RM.

I think more people should work on their foundation before trying to focus on specific lifts. But that's just me.....I understand your point, but if I was training someone who was weak to begin with and wanted to become a PLer, I certainly wouldn't have them do the WODs.

MixmasterNash
04-16-2006, 07:43 PM
someone who was weak to begin with
This sounds like a perfect candidate for a varied, fitness oriented program like crossfit, even if they wanted to become a powerlifter.

I wouldn't train a beginner with any sort of specialized program like a powerlifting routine.

Sensei
04-16-2006, 07:47 PM
This sounds like a perfect candidate for a varied, fitness oriented program like crossfit, even if they wanted to become a powerlifter.

I wouldn't train a beginner with any sort of specialized program like a powerlifting routine.
Geez Mix, I figured you knew me better than that. Of course not! Who the hell would put a beginner on a specialized PL program? Or the WoDs as is (edit) for that matter?

fixationdarknes
04-16-2006, 07:53 PM
Alright I'll try out the WoDs for a while. CF actually sounds really exciting and I can sort of see the benefits they would have.

I can see my strength, endurance, and GPP increasing...but one question still rises to mind...

-What if my goal was to get big? Honestly I'm not solely focused on any one particular area at this point, but can one pack on muscle mass from something like CF? The little voice in my head is saying no, because it doesn't seem like enough workload to actually stimulate a whole lot of muscle growth...but I'd like to pose that question to WBB.

MixmasterNash
04-16-2006, 08:00 PM
-What if my goal was to get big? Honestly I'm not solely focused on any one particular area at this point, but can one pack on muscle mass from something like CF? The little voice in my head is saying no, because it doesn't seem like enough workload to actually stimulate a whole lot of muscle growth...but I'd like to pose that question to WBB.
If you eat to caloric surplus and do the WOD's, you'll gain muscle.

MixmasterNash
04-16-2006, 08:02 PM
Geez Mix, I figured you knew me better than that. Of course not! Who the hell would put a beginner on a specialized PL program? Or the WoDs as is (edit) for that matter?
Well, I'm sure you will torture them with windmills in any case. :)

Canadian Crippler
04-16-2006, 08:42 PM
All the "top" crossfitters have deadlifts in the 200s and 300s tops and squat of similar proportions. If you compare strength (maximal strength specifically) and overall size from Crossfitters to guys on this forum, the guys here will win for the most part. If you're looking to be big and strong, I don't recommend Crossfit. I'm not saying it's bad to toss WoD's in, but solely Crossfit won't get you where you want especially since I always remember your goals as being "big and strong".

fixationdarknes
04-16-2006, 09:49 PM
So should I still put it on my priority list to get a gym and do weight room work? Honestly I still want to put on some decent size, while increasing strength/endurance/GPP.

Meat_Head
04-16-2006, 10:18 PM
Deadlifts in the 200-300 range? There are some strong sumbiatches in Crossfit, you gotta deadlift pretty big to do **** like 225x20 reps...

But anyway, if your goal is mass and strength with endurance/gpp, do some basic heavy lifting in addition to Cross Fit. 5x5, 3x3, etc.

Canadian Crippler
04-16-2006, 10:30 PM
Deadlifts in the 200-300 range? There are some strong sumbiatches in Crossfit, you gotta deadlift pretty big to do **** like 225x20 reps...For one, I don't see many guys there who can do that. Secondly, that usually doesn't equate to a max more than mid or high 300s. Especially for those guys who are used to that rep range, they probably are not even there yet.

I don't see the point in doing CrossFit unless you're a soldier, cop, firefighter, mixed martial artist, or in certain sports.

Clifford Gillmore
04-16-2006, 10:34 PM
For one, I don't see many guys there who can do that. Secondly, that usually doesn't equate to a max more than mid or high 300s. Especially for those guys who are used to that rep range, they probably are not even there yet.

I don't see the point in doing CrossFit unless you're a soldier, cop, firefighter, mixed martial artist, or in certain sports.


Explosive fitness strength and conditioning. Its a lifestyle training for anyone and everyone, If you want to get fit quickly - crossfit will do it.

Meat_Head
04-16-2006, 10:38 PM
It covers so many diverse aspects of fitness, I think it could help any athlete or anyone interested in fitness. I agree many of the workouts require quite a bit of training to be effective, but many of them don't. And dude... if you can deadlift 225lbs 20 times, you can max out at 350-400lbs no problem unless you have some very specific muscle fiber distribution. Strength endurance still requires maximal strength.

Canadian Crippler
04-16-2006, 10:42 PM
If you can deadlift 225lbs 20 times, you can max out at 350-400lbs no problem unless you have some very specific muscle fiber distribution. Strength endurance still requires maximal strength.I forget the guys name, one of those dudes in all the videos, but he did 225 for 15-15-15 or something like that. It said somewhere his max DL was 365. Not to mention how long these guys have been training for.

Meat_Head
04-16-2006, 10:45 PM
That's realistic, but I have to say that if he took the time to do a serious max strength mesocycle, he would add alot of weight to that quickly simply from neural adaptions. I agree that most of those guys have freakish levels of strength/endurence that take a long time to develop, but alot of their workouts can be toned down and altered to fit a beginner.

Canadian Crippler
04-16-2006, 10:51 PM
Yeah, it would still depend on his goals though. My pullup numbers flew up when I did CF and they have dropped since I stopped. However my strength in all other aspects slowed down completely as it was an overload to do CF and weight training.

dw06wu
04-17-2006, 03:45 AM
Well first off, Everett did a 300+ something clean and jerk, so there is an example right there of someone who can probably deadlift at least in the 400s. Anyway, CF is great for GPP, but as far as getting bigger, I really think you would need to add at least some sort of 5x5. The WODs usually don't take longer than 30 minutes. I just go to the gym, do the WOD, rest for 5-10 minutes and start throwing some plates around. I've kept my size pretty well, but our situations differ in that I'm trying to get as light as possible to drop weight classes.

Anthony
04-17-2006, 07:15 AM
Limit strength as in a 1RM.
If you're a PLer peaking in strength, crossfit won't help your 1RM. But if you're an average joe that does bench and bicep curls, you can be damn certain that crossfit will help your 1RM in a variety of lifts.


I understand your point, but if I was training someone who was weak to begin with and wanted to become a PLer, I certainly wouldn't have them do the WODs.
My point is that most people focus on specialized programs way too soon. Crossfit is a GPP program. GPP programs are good. Maybe you view 1-2 of the workouts and think it's all cardio, but we've been through this before. They do a very similar amount of ME work compared to PL programs, ALONG with a bunch of other stuff.

Anthony
04-17-2006, 07:18 AM
All the "top" crossfitters have deadlifts in the 200s and 300s tops and squat of similar proportions. If you compare strength (maximal strength specifically) and overall size from Crossfitters to guys on this forum, the guys here will win for the most part. If you're looking to be big and strong, I don't recommend Crossfit. I'm not saying it's bad to toss WoD's in, but solely Crossfit won't get you where you want especially since I always remember your goals as being "big and strong".
You're talking out of your ass. All the "top" crossfitters rarely post their times. Josh Everett is 185 and has a 575 deadlift. Kelly Moore is 118lbs and pulls over 315. And there are plenty of others.

Anthony
04-17-2006, 07:21 AM
So should I still put it on my priority list to get a gym and do weight room work? Honestly I still want to put on some decent size, while increasing strength/endurance/GPP.
Crossfit IS weight room work. Deadlifts, squats, front squats, overhead squats, cleans, jerks, snatches, chinups, dips, etc. Those are the foundations of the routine. If you eat a calorie surplus and hit the WOD hard, you will gain muscle. After you build a strong foundation (and crossfit will certainly help you build a strong foundation) and you want to improve a few of your lifts even more so, you could incorporate some ME/5x5 work. But starting out, I think CF is plenty.

Canadian Crippler
04-17-2006, 10:54 AM
You're talking out of your ass. All the "top" crossfitters rarely post their times. Josh Everett is 185 and has a 575 deadlift. Kelly Moore is 118lbs and pulls over 315. And there are plenty of others.I was referring to that dude in all those videos. Josh Everett didn't build a 575 deadlift doing Crossfit and we know that. I'm referring to the guys that I see in all the videos, and I remember 2 or 3 of them posting DL maxes at sometime somewhere. One was 365, and that was the guy who did 225 for 15-15-15. The other was high 200s. Those numbers aren't very impressive from maximal strength standpoint.

Crossfit IS awesome, if it relates to your goals. Should fixation do it? He mentioned to me that he wants to do BJJ I believe, so yes he should. Should I, some member named "WannaBeMassive215" or a guy looking to be big and have big numbers do it? No, we really shouldn't. Atleast not primarily.

Anthony
04-17-2006, 11:08 AM
Oh, so any of the top athletes who put you to shame aren't included in your statement? Gotcha. Get real, man. Do you know how many people use crossfit? About 100x more than what you see post in the comments. The number one weightlifter in the USA uses crossfit. If it didn't help his sport, why bother? The reason is that it DOES help his sport. And his gym is producing some kick ass athletes.

Maybe Josh didn't build a 575 deadlift with Crossfit only. No one is claiming that Crossfit is the end all be all program. It's a GPP program. Use it to build a foundation and then expand into specific areas that interest you. MOST people will still see strength and size gains because they are FAR away from needing specialization. Hell, I am still seeing improvement and I've been training a lot longer than Fix. If Crossfit did nothing for strength or size, you'd think that my strength and size would have disappeared after 4 months?

If you understood GPP, you'd understand that it relates to everyone's goals.

:)

Sensei
04-17-2006, 12:12 PM
If you're a PLer peaking in strength, crossfit won't help your 1RM. But if you're an average joe that does bench and bicep curls, you can be damn certain that crossfit will help your 1RM in a variety of lifts.I never said it was a bad program. You're being a bit defensive don't you think? The OP asked "Is Crossfit enough?" and I believe it depends on your goals - that's it.


My point is that most people focus on specialized programs way too soon. Crossfit is a GPP program. GPP programs are good. Maybe you view 1-2 of the workouts and think it's all cardio, but we've been through this before. They do a very similar amount of ME work compared to PL programs, ALONG with a bunch of other stuff.I never, ever thought it was ALL cardio or strength-endurance. As you've just stated, it is a GPP program and as such it should be commonsense that you are going to need more carefully programmed approach if you more specific goals.

MixmasterNash
04-17-2006, 12:19 PM
For a beginner, or someone coming off of a layoff, I think the whole issue is as simple as: lift heavy weights a few times a week and eat a lot.

In such a case, the limiting factor for gaining muscle mass is probably not the weight program so much as the food, as long as some basic hypertrophy-inducing activities occur. As such, Crossfit is probably just as good as WBB#1 or Westside and vice versa... so perhaps the question should be, are there other fitness goals like cardio or powerlifting?

Canadian Crippler
04-17-2006, 12:57 PM
Oh, so any of the top athletes who put you to shame aren't included in your statement? Gotcha. Get real, man. Do you know how many people use crossfit? About 100x more than what you see post in the comments. The number one weightlifter in the USA uses crossfit. If it didn't help his sport, why bother? The reason is that it DOES help his sport. And his gym is producing some kick ass athletes.Yes, because people on this site are top athletes. It's wannabebig. 99% of us just want to get big and strong. And if you think top athletes (or the ones who "set me to shame") use primarily crossfit, you're out of your mind.


Maybe Josh didn't build a 575 deadlift with Crossfit only. No one is claiming that Crossfit is the end all be all program. It's a GPP program. Use it to build a foundation and then expand into specific areas that interest you.To be specific, GPP indicates theres an actual sport to be trained for. In this case, there isn't. So why would it make sense to do GPP? Recommending GPP to someone who wants to be "big and strong", even as a beginning program, isn't the most efficient plan.
MOST people will still see strength and size gains because they are FAR away from needing specialization. Hell, I am still seeing improvement and I've been training a lot longer than Fix.I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that bodybuilders and strength athletes shouldn't primarily be doing Crossfit. I say this because all the people who have primarily done Crossfit for years have not so impressive numbers.


If Crossfit did nothing for strength or size, you'd think that my strength and size would have disappeared after 4 months?I never said that.


If you understood GPP, you'd understand that it relates to everyone's goals.

:)If you understood everyone's goals, you'd understand that using a GPP based program as the primary workouts is far from the most efficient for certain people (the mass majority on this site, beginner or not)

Anthony
04-17-2006, 01:18 PM
I never said it was a bad program. You're being a bit defensive don't you think? The OP asked "Is Crossfit enough?" and I believe it depends on your goals - that's it.
I took issue with the "limit strength" comment since it depends on where you are. For an experienced powerlifter, switching focus wouldn't result in more strength. For most people, especially fix, building a base should be primary focus. So I apologize if I sounded defensive, I just didn't agree with the statement in every scenario. No hard feelings. :p

Anthony
04-17-2006, 01:41 PM
Yes, because people on this site are top athletes. It's wannabebig. 99% of us just want to get big and strong. And if you think top athletes (or the ones who "set me to shame") use primarily crossfit, you're out of your mind.
Mitch, I'd really like to see these "top crossfitters" that you're talking about. I think your perception is skewed based on what you may have read in a few WOD comments. Because I can guarantee there are plenty of top athletes in a range of sports who use crossfit as their S&C program. Just because they don't post on the site doesn't mean they aren't heavily involved. And even if top athletes aren't using "Crossfit" they are CERTAINLY using GPP to some degree.


To be specific, GPP indicates theres an actual sport to be trained for.
Wrong. GPP = general physical preparedness, which is essentially your ability to perform well at any given task. Next!


So why would it make sense to do GPP? Recommending GPP to someone who wants to be "big and strong", even as a beginning program, isn't the most efficient plan.
Because GPP should come before SPP. Build a base, then expand. If your goal is to be big, you need to be strong. In order to be strong, you need balance. GPP helps bring that balance. Look at top level strength athletes and you'll notice their primary focus is exposing weaknesses and fixing them. Why? Because fixing a weakness is the easiest way to improve. A good GPP program will expose weaknesses. Before you discuss this any further, read "The Education of a Powerlifter" by Dave Tate. Maybe then you'll clue in.


I'm just saying that bodybuilders and strength athletes shouldn't primarily be doing Crossfit. I say this because all the people who have primarily done Crossfit for years have not so impressive numbers.
Crossfit is just an organized approach to GPP. Most athletes use some form of GPP. Take a look at all the people with impressive physiques and impressive strength. 99% of them have impressive levels of GPP. Coincidence?


If you understood everyone's goals, you'd understand that using a GPP based program as the primary workouts is far from the most efficient for certain people (the mass majority on this site, beginner or not)
I never said it should be the primary routine for everyone. I do think that EVERYONE at EVERY LEVEL can benefit from some degree of GPP work. In this particular instance, I think Fix would see HUGE benefits if he focused on his GPP for awhile.

fixationdarknes
04-17-2006, 02:17 PM
Thanks for all the responses. I plan to do the CF WoD today and see how I like it.

Anthony
04-17-2006, 02:37 PM
Another thing people have to understand is that the WOD is just an example of Crossfit. There is a lot more that goes on in various training camps.

fixationdarknes
04-17-2006, 02:41 PM
Another thing people have to understand is that the WOD is just an example of Crossfit. There is a lot more that goes on in various training camps.

What do you mean? So by doing CF WoD's, I'm not doing as much work as people in "training camps" are?

Anthony
04-17-2006, 02:47 PM
What do you mean? So by doing CF WoD's, I'm not doing as much work as people in "training camps" are?

The WOD is an example of their principles and it works very well. However, it's not the only way to apply their principles. Read my signature - that summarizes crossfit/gpp. Crossfit headquarters does a lot more work with tires, sledgehammers, sleds, rope climbing, oly lifts, etc. It doesn't get posted to the WOD as often because that equipment isn't as popular in commercial gyms. Mike's Gym incorporates Crossfit in a manner that suits their olympic lifters. Other gyms do the same for their athletes.

Honestly, the WOD is more than enough for most people looking for a good GPP routine. Don't think you're getting shafted by following the WOD. Give it an honest effort for 2 months (what do you have to lose?) and then you'll have a better understanding of what's involved.

Canadian Crippler
04-17-2006, 02:48 PM
Mitch, I'd really like to see these "top crossfitters" that you're talking about. I think your perception is skewed based on what you may have read in a few WOD comments. Because I can guarantee there are plenty of top athletes in a range of sports who use crossfit as their S&C program. Just because they don't post on the site doesn't mean they aren't heavily involved. And even if top athletes aren't using "Crossfit" they are CERTAINLY using GPP to some degree.My problem never was with CF. It was with using solely CF, or CF very primarily. Saying "athletes" use GPP based workouts primarily is just as stupid as me saying they don't. Linebacker aren't going to be training like LaCrosse players.

Aside from that, guess what? It's WBB. 99% of people here want to be big and strong, not athletes.


Wrong. GPP = general physical preparedness, which is essentially your ability to perform well at any given task. Next!I had this argument with debussy, taking your side, and I lost. http://www.elitefts.com/documents/general_physical_preparedness.htm

Next!


Because GPP should come before SPP. Build a base, then expand. If your goal is to be big, you need to be strong. In order to be strong, you need balance. GPP helps bring that balance.A good workout program with HIIT thrown in will bring this same balance, but also deliver the mass and strength results quicker. Guy 1 and 2 want to get bigger and stronger in the next 12 weeks. Guy 1 goes on a 4x/week heavy weight training split and 2x/week HIIT. Guy 2 does crossfit. Guy 1 WILL get bigger and stronger than Guy 2. Are you denying this?


Look at top level strength athletes and you'll notice their primary focus is exposing weaknesses and fixing them. Why? Because fixing a weakness is the easiest way to improve. A good GPP program will expose weaknesses. Before you discuss this any further, read "The Education of a Powerlifter" by Dave Tate. Maybe then you'll clue in.They don't do Crossfit to fix these weaknesses. PLers would do board presses, rack lockouts, and use bands/chains. OLers would do high pulls and heavy front squats. I don't see how Crossfit exposes weakness any better than weight training would (considering the goal is strength and size), and I certainly don't see how it corrects it any better.



Crossfit is just an organized approach to GPP. Most athletes use some form of GPP. Take a look at all the people with impressive physiques and impressive strength. 99% of them have impressive levels of GPP. Coincidence?99% of people with impressive physiques do not have impressive levels of GPP. With that said, what does this prove? Ronnie could go through many WoD's and demolish some of those top times. You think he'd have trouble with 95lb thrusters or BW chins? He'd destroy a lot of those girls.



I never said it should be the primary routine for everyone. I do think that EVERYONE at EVERY LEVEL can benefit from some degree of GPP work. In this particular instance, I think Fix would see HUGE benefits if he focused on his GPP for awhile.Someone doing weight training + CrossFit won't get any bigger or stronger than someone doing weight training solely. If this was true, the pros would be doing Cindy. If this was true, Dave Tate would be hitting up Angy right about now. Why aren't they? Because it doesn't help them with their goals.

Anthony
04-17-2006, 03:24 PM
My problem never was with CF. It was with using solely CF, or CF very primarily. Saying "athletes" use GPP based workouts primarily is just as stupid as me saying they don't. Linebacker aren't going to be training like LaCrosse players.
Their strength and conditioning programs would probably be very similar. The main difference would be in their skill training. Needs don't change, only the level of need. I know plenty of athletes that use GPP/Crossfit as their primary S&C routine, including myself.


Aside from that, guess what? It's WBB. 99% of people here want to be big and strong, not athletes.
Anyone who wants to be strong should take this stuff into consideration. Read the article I mentioned. Build a base, then expand. Fix asked a specific question and you're trying to turn this into a debate about everyone else. Do I think everyone, including those who only care about size, would benefit from some level of GPP? Yes. Aside from that, the site's name is being changed. ;)


I had this argument with debussy, taking your side, and I lost. http://www.elitefts.com/documents/general_physical_preparedness.htm
I don't see where my statement is proven to be incorrect. They define GPP as something that helps an athlete improve. And it is. GPP is also a measure of how well you are able to perform in any given task, which they also say. Let's not argue semantics. I do like how the article emphasizes every aspect of GPP that I've been trying to drill into you. ;)


Guy 1 and 2 want to get bigger and stronger in the next 12 weeks. Guy 1 goes on a 4x/week heavy weight training split and 2x/week HIIT. Guy 2 does crossfit. Guy 1 WILL get bigger and stronger than Guy 2. Are you denying this?
It would be pretty similar. The big difference would be in other measures of fitness, weighing heavily in favor of the CF guy. I still think you don't understand what CF or GPP is which makes this a pointless discussion.


They don't do Crossfit to fix these weaknesses. ...I don't see how Crossfit exposes weakness any better than weight training would (considering the goal is strength and size), and I certainly don't see how it corrects it any better.
They don't necessary use crossfit, but they certainly use GPP. The reason why it works better than specific weight training is because it's so varied. It forces you to do things that you might not be good at, and therefore expose a weakness that is holding back you training - either directly or indirectly. You did read the article that you referenced, right?


99% of people with impressive physiques do not have impressive levels of GPP.
Really. Let's hear some names of people with impressive physiques with ****ty performance.


With that said, what does this prove? Ronnie could go through many WoD's and demolish some of those top times.
I guess anything is possible, but I highly doubt it. It would be hilarious to watch, though.


You think he'd have trouble with 95lb thrusters or BW chins? He'd destroy a lot of those girls.
His weight to strength ratio is pretty ****ty compared to top level athletes, so yes, I think he'd suffer just as much as everyone else.


Someone doing weight training + CrossFit won't get any bigger or stronger than someone doing weight training solely. If this was true, the pros would be doing Cindy. If this was true, Dave Tate would be hitting up Angy right about now. Why aren't they? Because it doesn't help them with their goals.
You realize the number one weightlifter in the United States of America does Crossfit, right? You realize that Dave Tate does GPP on a regular basis, right?

Just making sure.

Canadian Crippler
04-17-2006, 03:48 PM
Their strength and conditioning programs would probably be very similar. The main difference would be in their skill training. Needs don't change, only the level of need. I know plenty of athletes that use GPP/Crossfit as their primary S&C routine, including myself.Well, take a running back vs. a soccer forward. I highly doubt the programs would be similar at all. One would be working heavily on things such as box squats, 30m, 40m, and sled dragging. I don't think soccer players do any of that stuff, atleast not to the extent a running back would.


Anyone who wants to be strong should take this stuff into consideration. Read the article I mentioned. Build a base, then expand. Fix asked a specific question and you're trying to turn this into a debate about everyone else. Do I think everyone, including those who only care about size, would benefit from some level of GPP? Yes. Aside from that, the site's name is being changed. ;)I agree that one should build a base and then expand it. Why question is why do you think CF would built a better base than heavy weight training? Heavy weight training is far more specific to the goal at hand and would thus be more efficient.


I don't see where my statement is proven to be incorrect. They define GPP as something that helps an athlete improve. And it is. GPP is also a measure of how well you are able to perform in any given task, which they also say. Let's not argue semantics. I do like how the article emphasizes every aspect of GPP that I've been trying to drill into you. ;)They also state "what gpp is" as something which helps an athlete improve at a sport, or variations thereof. I had this argument, I searched many pages, and I found no definition that didn't involve the fact that an athlete was training for a sport.


It would be pretty similar. The big difference would be in other measures of fitness, weighing heavily in favor of the CF guy. I still think you don't understand what CF or GPP is which makes this a pointless discussion.Well, explain to me why there are many guys who begin to train with weights for 6 months and put on a good amount of size and strength meanwhile I'm yet to hear of one person who used only CF and did the same.


They don't necessary use crossfit, but they certainly use GPP. The reason why it works better than specific weight training is because it's so varied. It forces you to do things that you might not be good at, and therefore expose a weakness that is holding back you training - either directly or indirectly. You did read the article that you referenced, right?The article I referenced was to show you that the definition of GPP is inclusive to an actual sport. The article focuses on athletes and similar needs. I'm focusing on the guys on this site, who you are recommending this program to.

Care to give me an example of how a powerlifter would find a weakness using GPP that he couldn't find doing bench, squat, deadlift, and variations thereof? Ditto with an Olympic Lifter. What is so magical about GPP that allows them to find this weakness?


Really. Let's hear some names of people with impressive physiques with ****ty performance.Most people with impressive physiques are very strong, and thus could simply power through some of the WoD. Something like, say, 20 burpees, 400m, 5 rounds? I don't think any pro would fair well on that.


His weight to strength ratio is pretty ****ty compared to top level athletes, so yes, I think he'd suffer just as much as everyone else.So you're saying his performance would be ****ty? Then why is it that you say increasing this performance is important in accomplishing the goal of adding mass? The biggest BB in the world, according to you, wouldn't fair well on a typical CF workout. Doesn't that just prove that the performance on GPP-based workout wouldn't have any sort of connection with adding mass?


You realize the number one weightlifter in the United States of America does Crossfit, right?You do realize he does it as probably 1/6th of his training, right?


You realize that Dave Tate does GPP on a regular basis, right?

Just making sure.Yes, I've read articles of his where he goes into it.

You seem to think I'm totally against GPP and Crossfit. I'm not. I just don't think it should make up the core of the routine for someone who's goals are to be bigger, stronger, or bigger and stronger.

Sensei
04-17-2006, 03:48 PM
I'm staying out of this. I agree and don't agree with both of you. This, however...

Ronnie could go through many WoD's and demolish some of those top times. You think he'd have trouble with 95lb thrusters or BW chins? He'd destroy a lot of those girls....is complete BS. There is NO WAY Ronnie would do worth a crap on most WoDs and he'd very likely collapse before completing them.

Canadian Crippler
04-17-2006, 03:52 PM
I totally agree, most was a bad choice of words. He could definitely have high times in some of them though. How about when it calls for max's? Even the 20 rep stuff, he'd be in the 400s minimum. Thrusters? He'd destroy. Obviously Ronnie isn't going to fair well when rowing 400m followed by 50 jumping jacks, but he sure as hell can do well on some of the WoD's.

Ironman15
04-17-2006, 04:00 PM
I also agree and disagree with a lot of this. For one thing I feel that lifting weights besides the aesthetics side is totally pointless if your strength isn't functional in the real world, and I think GPP helps you build functional strength moreso than just heavy weightlifting. Personally I want to be able to use my strength outside of the gym. And I want to be athletic. Thats my biggest goal, to be athletic as ****. Granted I'm never gonna compete in anything noteworthy but I feel the athleticism that GPP gives you is important in whatever you do as well. That being said I think Crossfit alone could definitely build muscle mass and strength. I don't think it would be as effective as say a 5x5 routine, but a 5x5 routine wouldn't give you as much functional strength and athleticism either. In conclusion, to me the best thing to do is to combine crossfit and a 5x5 routine or something of this nature.

Anthony
04-17-2006, 04:31 PM
Well, take a running back vs. a soccer forward. I highly doubt the programs would be similar at all. One would be working heavily on things such as box squats, 30m, 40m, and sled dragging. I don't think soccer players do any of that stuff, atleast not to the extent a running back would.
I'm having a hard time not laughing right now. There are university softball pitchers who drag sleds. Females, at that. Maybe you should do a bit more research before you start telling us how athletes train outside of their sport.



I agree that one should build a base and then expand it. Why question is why do you think CF would built a better base than heavy weight training? Heavy weight training is far more specific to the goal at hand and would thus be more efficient.
Because GPP/CF is more varied and will help keep things balanced. Sure, you can do that with traditional weight lifting routines, but guess what? The closer you get to being balanced, the closer you get to looking like GPP/CF. Weight lifting IS Crossfit!



They also state "what gpp is" as something which helps an athlete improve at a sport, or variations thereof. I had this argument, I searched many pages, and I found no definition that didn't involve the fact that an athlete was training for a sport.
General Physical Preparedness is a buzz word that describes your level of fitness. Prove me wrong. You can't. No article in the world can prove me wrong on that.



Well, explain to me why there are many guys who begin to train with weights for 6 months and put on a good amount of size and strength meanwhile I'm yet to hear of one person who used only CF and did the same.
Both programs produce results. Size is more about food than training. So while those who just want to look good don't really care about their strength to size ratio, athletes certainly do. Does it mean that an athletes training method wouldn't produce similar size gains if he/she fed herself in a similar manner to the bodybuilder? That's the part you're missing. ;)


Care to give me an example of how a powerlifter would find a weakness using GPP that he couldn't find doing bench, squat, deadlift, and variations thereof? Ditto with an Olympic Lifter. What is so magical about GPP that allows them to find this weakness?
You can find weaknesses within a variety of exercises. I never said GPP had exclusive rights on finding and correcting weaknesses. It's one benefit, that if done properly, allows an athlete to identify and improve without specific sport practise.


Most people with impressive physiques are very strong, and thus could simply power through some of the WoD. Something like, say, 20 burpees, 400m, 5 rounds? I don't think any pro would fair well on that.
Kevin Levrone? I'm sure there are others. I also think the pros are a piss poor representation of bodybuilders in general. If we look at the local guys here at WBB (chase, will, yates, etc), I'm pretty sure they would all fair well in most/all of the bench marks.


So you're saying his performance would be ****ty?
Nope, I'm saying it would probably be pretty similar to the scores you see posted on a daily basis. He has more absolute strength than a lot of people, but GPP isn't always about absolute strength. Sometimes. But not always. I think he'd do okay, but he probably wouldn't destroy anything.


Then why is it that you say increasing this performance is important in accomplishing the goal of adding mass?
Really ... can you show me where I said this? Improving your GPP will help your strength training. Combine strength training with enough food and you'll grow. It helps, but it's indirect.


The biggest BB in the world, according to you, wouldn't fair well on a typical CF workout.
I said I don't think he'd destroy anything.


Doesn't that just prove that the performance on GPP-based workout wouldn't have any sort of connection with adding mass?
You can get big without a decent level of GPP. But your performance in the gym would probably increase if you had higher levels of GPP. Better performance in the gym = better gains. Of course there is a point of diminishing returns (as with anything) and that's something that is specific to each individual athlete.


You do realize he does it as probably 1/6th of his training, right?
http://www.mikesgym.org/wod.php Kinda looks like they do some sort of GPP every day. Cool.


You seem to think I'm totally against GPP and Crossfit. I'm not. I just don't think it should make up the core of the routine for someone who's goals are to be bigger, stronger, or bigger and stronger.
I don't think you're against it, I just don't think you fully understand it. Depending on someone's level and ultimate goals, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using a GPP program as their core training routine. Most athletes do two things: skill training and S&C. GPP is S&C. Cool, eh?

Chubrock
04-17-2006, 04:50 PM
Mitch, why do you feel like you can't gain a good amount of size following CF (GPP) principles? Most of the CF principles focus around using the body as one unit, utilizing a lot of compound lifts to accomplish this. These compound lifts, both traditional (squats, cleans, deads) and nontraditional (sandbag training, sledgehammer work etc etc) go a long way in making up an effective split. I don't see how you can say that you can't gain a good amount of size following the principles that CF sets forward. I guarantee you, that if I ate enough food, I could gain a good amount of size and strength following the principles.

Maki Riddington
04-17-2006, 05:11 PM
Well, take a running back vs. a soccer forward. I highly doubt the programs would be similar at all. One would be working heavily on things such as box squats, 30m, 40m, and sled dragging. I don't think soccer players do any of that stuff, atleast not to the extent a running back would.

CC,

Why not? If the main goal is to increase their general conditioning they can definitely train in the same manner. Now if they are training specifially for something that is geared towards their sport then that is where SPP comes into play.

fixationdarknes
04-17-2006, 06:04 PM
Quite an interesting thread. What's SPP though? :D

Anthony
04-17-2006, 06:41 PM
fix, SPP = specific physical preparedness. Something that is directly involved in your sport. For a powerlifter it would be squat/bench/dead. For a baseball player it would be running/throwing/batting. Etc.

I just want to put an end to the argument between Mitch and I before things get out of hand. I have very strong views on the benefits of GPP. Maybe I'm biased because it made such a dramatic difference in so many aspects of my training. Maybe I'm biased because I've watched Jodi's strength and conditioning improve tremendously in a very short period of time. Maybe I'm biased because I was bored of routines. Maybe I'm biased because my conditioning has improved so much that my confidence in tackling hardcore workouts is through the roof. Who knows. What I do know is that I'm in the best shape of my life, I feel great, I've set numerous PRs this year, and I've only touched the tip of the iceberg. So if I'm over enthusiastic about introducing the concept of GPP to someone, you'll understand why. :D

Meat_Head
04-17-2006, 06:45 PM
And any running back whose training isn't similar to a soccer forward is a tard, and vice versa. A soccer forward would need more cardiovascular endurance of course, but aside from that, kicking, and taking a hit, each have basically the same physical requirements. The forward still has to sprint, jump, cut, and be explosive at many point during the soccer game. Likewise, the runningback needs endurance if he hopes to run 20+ plays a game.

fixationdarknes
04-17-2006, 07:07 PM
Thanks everyone for your input to this thread.

Canadian Crippler
04-17-2006, 08:30 PM
I'm having a hard time not laughing right now. There are university softball pitchers who drag sleds. Females, at that. Maybe you should do a bit more research before you start telling us how athletes train outside of their sport.University softball pitching girls are doing sleg dragging with similar intensity to how a running back would? You can laugh, but it would just be at yourself. If you think the training programs of football stars is similar to soccer stars you're fooling yourself.


Because GPP/CF is more varied and will help keep things balanced. Sure, you can do that with traditional weight lifting routines, but guess what? The closer you get to being balanced, the closer you get to looking like GPP/CF. Weight lifting IS Crossfit!The, the addition of size or strength alone will be much slower with CS than with traditional weightlifting. This alone should be enough to persuade a trainee not to primarily use it. Secondly, I'd like you to take a look at my routine in my journal and tell me what is inbalanced about it. A balanced weightlifting routine is NOTHING like Crossfit. It's far, far more efficient from a size and strength standpoint.


General Physical Preparedness is a buzz word that describes your level of fitness. Prove me wrong. You can't. No article in the world can prove me wrong on that.Logical fallacy. There are giant ants living in the centre of earth controlling our minds. Prove me wrong. You can't. No article in the world can prove me wrong on that. If I show you articles that state it's sport specific, and you show me nothing, it's safe to assume my definition as correct.


Both programs produce results. Size is more about food than training. So while those who just want to look good don't really care about their strength to size ratio, athletes certainly do. Does it mean that an athletes training method wouldn't produce similar size gains if he/she fed herself in a similar manner to the bodybuilder? That's the part you're missing. ;)I was waiting for you to call me out on that. It's interesting, and we'll never know. We do know that the CF program does not produce equivalent strength results to a traditional weight training program. Stength is needed to add size. So it would make sense that the CF program wouldn't produce as much mass as a traditional weightlifting program.


You can find weaknesses within a variety of exercises. I never said GPP had exclusive rights on finding and correcting weaknesses. It's one benefit, that if done properly, allows an athlete to identify and improve without specific sport practise.I NEVER said athletes shouldn't be doing GPP. I asked how a powerlifter would find a weakness using GPP that he wouldn't doing exercises in the gym.


Kevin Levrone? I'm sure there are others. I also think the pros are a piss poor representation of bodybuilders in general. If we look at the local guys here at WBB (chase, will, yates, etc), I'm pretty sure they would all fair well in most/all of the bench marks.And what does this prove exactly? Did any of these guys ever do GPP-based workouts? I don't see how this is relevant to your argument, all your saying is that some of these big and strong guys would be good at Crossfit. My argument is that the Crossfit guys aren't good at being big and strong, thus why carry over their training principles?


Really ... can you show me where I said this? Improving your GPP will help your strength training. Combine strength training with enough food and you'll grow. It helps, but it's indirect.Your making connections that quite frankly aren't proven. Your saying if A helps B, and B has a connection with C, than A helps C. There are tons of strong SOBs who anything but big. There are tons of strong SOBs who eat and weigh a lot but after a cut still wouldn't be jacked. Strength and size obviously have a very important connection, but saying that anything that will make you a bit stronger will make you a bit bigger isn't true.



You can get big without a decent level of GPP. But your performance in the gym would probably increase if you had higher levels of GPP. Better performance in the gym = better gains. Of course there is a point of diminishing returns (as with anything) and that's something that is specific to each individual athlete.It's quite possible, it also might not make a difference. As I said, I am anything but anti GPP-based workouts. You're arguing that the addition of GPP is beneficial. I never argued otherwise. I said using a GPP-based program as the core of a routine for someone looking for size/strength is inefficient.


http://www.mikesgym.org/wod.php Kinda looks like they do some sort of GPP every day. Cool.How is this anything like CrossFit?


I don't think you're against it, I just don't think you fully understand it. Depending on someone's level and ultimate goals, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using a GPP program as their core training routine. Most athletes do two things: skill training and S&C. GPP is S&C. Cool, eh?Most of us aren't athletes. Cool, eh?

Here's facts: Thousands of people have gotten super strong and massive off of traditional weight training.

I'm yet to see one person who is super strong and massive who has used CF-like workouts throughout their whole training career.

Canadian Crippler
04-17-2006, 08:31 PM
Mitch, why do you feel like you can't gain a good amount of size following CF (GPP) principles? Most of the CF principles focus around using the body as one unit, utilizing a lot of compound lifts to accomplish this. These compound lifts, both traditional (squats, cleans, deads) and nontraditional (sandbag training, sledgehammer work etc etc) go a long way in making up an effective split. I don't see how you can say that you can't gain a good amount of size following the principles that CF sets forward. I guarantee you, that if I ate enough food, I could gain a good amount of size and strength following the principles.And I guarantee you that if you ate the same amount of food, but followed a traditional weight training split, you'd gain even more strength and size.

Canadian Crippler
04-17-2006, 08:34 PM
CC,

Why not? If the main goal is to increase their general conditioning they can definitely train in the same manner. Now if they are training specifially for something that is geared towards their sport then that is where SPP comes into play.I was referring to there SPP, yes. I'd expect that most athletes would be conditioned in more or less a similar manner. A running back clearly has different needs than a soccer forward. All I'm saying is you wont see a soccer forward running the 30m and doing heavy box squats.

Canadian Crippler
04-17-2006, 08:40 PM
I just want to put an end to the argument between Mitch and I before things get out of hand. I have very strong views on the benefits of GPP. Maybe I'm biased because it made such a dramatic difference in so many aspects of my training. Maybe I'm biased because I've watched Jodi's strength and conditioning improve tremendously in a very short period of time. Maybe I'm biased because I was bored of routines. Maybe I'm biased because my conditioning has improved so much that my confidence in tackling hardcore workouts is through the roof. Who knows. What I do know is that I'm in the best shape of my life, I feel great, I've set numerous PRs this year, and I've only touched the tip of the iceberg. So if I'm over enthusiastic about introducing the concept of GPP to someone, you'll understand why. :DI'm also probably biased. I did CF primarily for a little while (1 month maybe) and my strength stagnated, even fell, aside from chinup strength. My joints were hurting and I thought it was Accutane. It wasn't, it was the fact that 3x a week I was doing hundreds upon hundreds of reps, all explosive. I stopped doing it all together 2 weeks ago. This week I added 5 reps to my previous Incline DB Press PR and added 4 reps to my previous DL PR. So I hope you understand why I personally find it too hard to believe that the GPP stuff actually assists in any way.

BigRic
04-17-2006, 09:03 PM
I'm gonna jump in here and say in your case CC you probably jumped in to too much too quickly. which is why you saw a loss in strength.

Chubrock
04-17-2006, 09:59 PM
Mitch, for some reason I get the feeling that you think CF or GPP in general is just huge rep numbers, or random odd lifts. A lot of the time, I find myself in the gym doing the exact same lifts you portray as being just PL or BB lifts. CF and most GPP (as far as the lifting side) is centered around using your body as one, hence the HUGE amount of compound lifts and exercises you see.

Meat_Head
04-17-2006, 11:26 PM
Come on man... GPP = GENERAL physical preparedness, muscular endurance for example. SPP = SPECIFIC physical preparedness, like throwing a football. GPP is good for anyone who uses their body. Any athlete, strength athlete, bodybuilder, or average joe can benefit from it in terms of muscular size and strength in addition to other aspects of fitness.

Anthony
04-18-2006, 04:01 AM
Mitch,

Before you debate this any further, you really need to get a grasp on what GPP is. Because honestly, I feel like I'm debating quantum physics with a two year old. Unless you come back with something of value, I'll not respond to you in this thread from here on out.

1) Your attempt at Crossfit was a bunch of half assed met-con workouts. Of course you lost strength.

2) The fact that you looked at Mike's Gym and couldn't see the similarities between their WOD and GPP/CF just reinforces my opinion that you really have no clue what GPP or Crossfit really is. Seriously Mitch, Crossfit is everything you do plus more. Crossfit IS weightlifting. You look at a couple of met-con workouts on their front page and assume you understand the entire methodology. You do realize they use every compound lift for 5x5, triples, and singles on a regular basis, right? No, you don't realize that which is exactly why Mike's Gym doesn't look like Crossfit/GPP to you.

3) The needs of all athletes differ by degree, not kind. That is why a female university softball pitcher will drag a sled with the same relative level of intensity as a NFL running back. She may not use as much weight or go the same distance or repeat with the same frequency, but she's still doing a lot of the things a running back would do. It's not to say every athlete on every team is doing the exact same S&C work, but it's all similar.

4) I don't need an article to backup my definition of General Physical Preparedness, although they do exist. If you want to argue semantics, that's your choice. But anyone with the ability to think for themselves would be very hard pressed to deny that GPP is someone's preparedness to perform general physical activities. You don't need to be an athlete to perform general physical activities. You don't need to be an athlete to be prepared. GPP = fitness. Having good GPP means you have good fitness. It's really not difficult to understand.

5) You seem to think that no GPP program would make someone big. Well, the biggest and strongest guys in the world center their entire training around activities that most of us would consider GPP. Farmer's walk, vehicle drags, tire flips, picking up big rocks, etc. Those are all "general" activities. And it's pretty hard to deny that the World's Strongest Man isn't strong.

Sensei
04-18-2006, 05:15 AM
Let me just add this to the fray, because the arguments got really confused IMHO.

CF does not equal GPP. CF is one kind of GPP program.

GPP = general physical preparation
SPP = specialized physical preparation
SSP = special sports preparation

Sensei
04-18-2006, 05:30 AM
I'm not trying to stir the pot, but this is from Siff (I don't think it proves or disproves, supports or refutes anyone specifically btw). Highlighted portions are also from Siff.


... it should always be remembered that the GPP and SPP always from an interconnected unit. In some cases, the GPP and the SPP may even be concurrent or the GPP may be largely indistinguishable from the SPP (Bondarchuk, 1979).
The GPP is intended to provide balanced physical conditioning in endurance, strength, speed, flexibility and other basic factors of fitness, whereas the SPP concentrates on exercises which are more specific to the particular sport. Characteristically, the GPP may include participation in a variety of different physical activities which provide low intensity, all-around conditioning, with little emphasis on specific sporting skills. Participation in activities such as jogging, swimming, cycling, tennis, or volleyball may be appropriate in this phase for some sports. If the player needs to gain muscle or lose fat, this is regarded as the appropriate period to do so. Sometimes an hypertrophy phase may be included in the GPP if there is a need for gaining functional muscle bulk. The decision to utilize this type of phase should be based on an assessment of the strength deficit discussed previously (Ch 1 and Fig 1.1)
Sometimes it is important to include very specific SPP-type exercises during the GPP either to rehabilitate any existing injuries or to eliminate any structural or functional deficiencies or imbalances in physique, posture and neuromuscular skill. It may be also relevant to curtail or eliminate standard types of GPP from the training programme of anyone who is an advanced athlete or has trained regularly for a prolonged period at increasing levels of proficiency. Similarly, the use of GPP-type exercises may be appropriate for brief periods during the SPP to facilitate recovery or prevent stagnation.

Anthony
04-18-2006, 05:40 AM
I think both of us would agree with those statements. I think the main argument is whether or not GPP is good for building size and strength.

MixmasterNash
04-18-2006, 07:41 AM
I think the main argument is whether or not GPP is good for building size and strength.

I think this is a meaningless statement.

Like Siff mentions, GPP can include hypertrophy oriented phases or can solely be hypertrophy work.

Because GPP can be so varied, the question here really is, is the Crossfit WOD sequence good for building size and strength?

I think that we agree that the answer is yes and that Crip is silly.

Anthony
04-18-2006, 07:59 AM
If that were true, explain how Crip did 3 Crossfit sessions (all met-con) over the span of two weeks (February 17th to March 4th) and lost strength and size. ;)

MixmasterNash
04-18-2006, 08:11 AM
If that were true, explain how Crip did 3 Crossfit sessions (all met-con) over the span of two weeks (February 17th to March 4th) and lost strength and size. ;)

NOT enuf of teh Roidzors!!!!!!!

ArchAngel777
04-18-2006, 10:10 AM
Crossfit is quite possibly the end-all-be-all for GPP. I have a lot of respect for it. I mean, what is the point in looking huge, ripped and strong if you are whining 4 minutes into manual labor that "my hands hurt! Oh gosh, my back... Oh, I can't keep going"... Its like a big baby huey. If you have the look, you SHOULD have the fitness level behind it.

I am with Anthony on this completely. Things like Crossfit will completely increase all aspects of your athletic ability.

Someone else on this site said something that made me laugh, because it was so true... I think it went like this "Great, so you have this great body and physique, but you can't even run a mile" Ain't that the truth? That is pathetic.

MixmasterNash
04-18-2006, 10:24 AM
Ain't that the truth? That is pathetic.

You're not convincving anyone with this argument. As Crip said, most people here don't care about running a mile or sports performance. They want to be big and muscular.

I happen to think that Crossfit (perhaps with something like anthony's 5x5 variation) is a good way of achieving that, with additional fitness benefits.

But telling people that they suck for not being fascinated with energy systems and sprinting speed, etc. probably isn't going to convince anyone of anything except that we're being dicks.

Meat_Head
04-18-2006, 10:34 AM
I think there are alot more people interested in athletic performance here than you are giving credit... a few off the top of my head are you, me, anthony, blitzforce, belial, ArchAngel, and I'm sure there are plenty more. Anyone here would rather be huge, strong, and in shape as opposed to huge, strong, and incapable.

There was a time when aesthetics without performance was laughed at. It was also well known then that the best way to build an aesthetic body was to build up athletic performance.

ArchAngel777
04-18-2006, 10:49 AM
But telling people that they suck for not being fascinated with energy systems and sprinting speed, etc. probably isn't going to convince anyone of anything except that we're being dicks.

I am gonna have to dissagree with you on this one. For instance, how many people get told "SQUAT!"?!?!?! Just about everyone gets flamed if they don't squat or work their legs. Why? Because it is absurd to work just your upper body. It also just as absurd to not work on your GPP even a little. I mean, running a mile isn't all-star performance here. You are required to run the mile in a decent time in High School! See the difference is, running 1 mile is something everyone (who isn't injured or para or what not) should be able to do at any time. I didn't say they need to run 3 miles in 18 minutes, just that they need to be able to run (not jog) a mile. That is my opinion on it. Just like everyone one else who is more holy than thou do when it comes to their opinions on Squating.

Sensei
04-18-2006, 11:10 AM
But telling people that they suck for not being fascinated with energy systems and sprinting speed, etc. probably isn't going to convince anyone of anything except that we're being dicks.
I agree 100%.

It also just as absurd to not work on your GPP even a little. I mean, running a mile isn't all-star performance here. You are required to run the mile in a decent time in High School! See the difference is, running 1 mile is something everyone (who isn't injured or para or what not) should be able to do at any time. Required? Have you been to a high school P.E. class lately???
GPP is not necessarily about being able to run. I could care less about my ability to run a mile. If my profession demanded it, it would be a totally different story, but in my life and with the hobbies I pursue anything more than a short sprint of 200meters or less is almost nonexistent.

ArchAngel777
04-18-2006, 11:13 AM
Required? Have you been to a high school P.E. class lately???

Nope, I am not in High School anymore. Just going by what I had to do in High School. The females had to run the 1 mile in under 9 minutes and the males had to run it in under 7:30 to "ace" the test so to speak. Wasn't difficult.

ArchAngel777
04-18-2006, 11:17 AM
GPP is not necessarily about being able to run. I could care less about my ability to run a mile. If my profession demanded it, it would be a totally different story, but in my life and with the hobbies I pursue anything more than a short sprint of 200meters or less is almost nonexistent.

Well, actually GPP is just what it stands for. So, if you can't run a mile, your GPP sucks. If you can't do general activities decently, your GPP sucks. Running 1 mile isn't anything special here. Therefore, your GPP sucks if you cannot run a mile. This may or may not apply to you. Perhaps you can run a mile? I don't know and don't care to be honest. If you are happy, great!

Canadian Crippler
04-18-2006, 01:05 PM
1) Your attempt at Crossfit was a bunch of half assed met-con workouts. Of course you lost strength.Met-con? I don't think anyone would lose strength with CF. I did, I don't think that's expected though.


2) The fact that you looked at Mike's Gym and couldn't see the similarities between their WOD and GPP/CF just reinforces my opinion that you really have no clue what GPP or Crossfit really is. Seriously Mitch, Crossfit is everything you do plus more. Crossfit IS weightlifting. You look at a couple of met-con workouts on their front page and assume you understand the entire methodology. You do realize they use every compound lift for 5x5, triples, and singles on a regular basis, right? No, you don't realize that which is exactly why Mike's Gym doesn't look like Crossfit/GPP to you.Taking Mike's Gym out of the equation (it all looks like variations of one type of CF workout), let's deal with CF solely since that is what the argument is about. I've looked at Crossfit, I've looked at EVERY single one of their girls, and I've looked at the WoD's for a while. Rarely do I see something like 3x3, 5x5, or anything similar come up. The closeet I've seen is 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1. The only time I even seen lower rep ranges come up is when you've just done a cycle of exercises for 20 minutes in a row. How you can say that doing workouts that are geared at overall fitness is better than workouts geared specifically for the goal at hand is beyond me. The trainee doesn't care to run a mile fast. The trainee doesn't care if he can do 30 burpees in a row. So logically incorporating these methods into his training is similar to teaching someone in med school about plumbing.


3) The needs of all athletes differ by degree, not kind. That is why a female university softball pitcher will drag a sled with the same relative level of intensity as a NFL running back. She may not use as much weight or go the same distance or repeat with the same frequency, but she's still doing a lot of the things a running back would do. It's not to say every athlete on every team is doing the exact same S&C work, but it's all similar.It differs by degree and kind. Again. you won't find soccer forwards doing box squats or running the 30m. How is that not a difference of kind?

Even if we assume you're correct, the difference in degrees would be so substantial that calling the training methods similar would still be incorrect.


4) I don't need an article to backup my definition of General Physical Preparedness, although they do exist. If you want to argue semantics, that's your choice. But anyone with the ability to think for themselves would be very hard pressed to deny that GPP is someone's preparedness to perform general physical activities. You don't need to be an athlete to perform general physical activities. You don't need to be an athlete to be prepared. GPP = fitness. Having good GPP means you have good fitness. It's really not difficult to understand.If I have a bunch of articles stating that my definition is correct, and you have none stating yours is, why would we be led to believe you are correct? I'm sorry that authors on sites such as EliteFTS agree with me.


5) You seem to think that no GPP program would make someone big.I never said that. I said CF won't make someone big.


Well, the biggest and strongest guys in the world center their entire training around activities that most of us would consider GPP. Farmer's walk, vehicle drags, tire flips, picking up big rocks, etc. Those are all "general" activities. And it's pretty hard to deny that the World's Strongest Man isn't strong.I don't think the farmers walks and 200lb tire flips these guys perform is in any way similar to throwing a 20lb ball 21 times against a wall followed by 21 burpees.

As I said above, it's not that CF doesn't address these needs in some manner, it does. It's just not efficient to focus on training aspects that don't relate to your goals, causing a much much lower frequency in the ones that do. Is there heavy weight training in CF? Occasionally there is (very occasionally). But when 1/2 of the workouts involve using 20+ reps and rowing 400m, there just isn't a point to perform this when the goal is to be big and strong.

If you can find me someone who used CF and only CF and got bigger and/or stronger than someone who followed a traditional weight training program, than be my guest.



As much as I do like CF, it's a total trend here on WBB. Everyone in this thread always knew about the existance of tire flips, burpees, and rowing. 1/2 of you never tried it until Anthony whored it out. I'm not saying it's a bad program to include, but it's more trendy than essential it seems.

Canadian Crippler
04-18-2006, 01:22 PM
Come on man... GPP = GENERAL physical preparedness, muscular endurance for example. SPP = SPECIFIC physical preparedness, like throwing a football. GPP is good for anyone who uses their body. Any athlete, strength athlete, bodybuilder, or average joe can benefit from it in terms of muscular size and strength in addition to other aspects of fitness.This isn't the argument dude. I'm not denying that there MAY be some benefits of doing GPP-like training additionally. I'm saying that traditional weight lifting as the core of the program would be better than CF as the core of the program, for a beginner looking to gain size and strength.


Guy 1 and 2 want to get bigger and stronger in the next 12 weeks. Guy 1 goes on a 4x/week heavy weight training split and 2x/week HIIT. Guy 2 does crossfit. Guy 1 WILL get bigger and stronger than Guy 2. Are you denying this?

It would be pretty similar. The big difference would be in other measures of fitness, weighing heavily in favor of the CF guy. I still think you don't understand what CF or GPP is which makes this a pointless discussion.

debussy
04-18-2006, 01:35 PM
To all you trendy crossfit zealouts:

I would never start a beginner on CF. Have a beginner do 20 snatches in a row and see what happens. $20 he'll get injured and hate lifting. For all you fools thinking CF is a great way for a good way for beginners to build a base... I think that you need to have a solid base before you start CF. Throwing up and dying is not normal. Common sense that the you should take time to master the lifts before trying to do the lifts to failure (or near failure).

I have no problems with CF... it's great for getting your endurance up. However, I do have a problem with you people who think it's the next best thing. CF type training has existed forever... you guys are suckers to good marketing.


CF is the solution to world hunger.

Anthony
04-18-2006, 01:39 PM
I'll address these posts later, as I am late for my GPP session at the gym. ;)

Debussy, you've been around long enough to know that derogatory words are not welcome on this forum.

Chubrock
04-18-2006, 02:02 PM
Damn Anthony, I never knew I was gay. I'm glad Debussy pointed that out for me.

ArchAngel777
04-18-2006, 02:11 PM
To all you trendy crossfit zealouts:

I would never start a beginner on CF. Have a beginner do 20 snatches in a row and see what happens. $20 he'll get injured and hate lifting. For all you fools thinking CF is a great way for a good way for beginners to build a base... I think that you need to have a solid base before you start CF. Throwing up and dying is not normal. Common sense that the you should take time to master the lifts before trying to do the lifts to failure (or near failure).

I have no problems with CF... it's great for getting your endurance up. However, I do have a problem with you people who think it's the next best thing. CF type training has existed forever... you guys are suckers to good marketing.

I am not hateful or resentful to anyone who doesn't like crossfit. I just laugh on the inside, because I know how great it is. Don't like it? Don't do it then. I sure won't lose sleep over your decision... And why should I? You are a big boy and can make your own decisions. I have no affiliation with crossfit, nor will I ever. I just simply believe that crossfit is a great program for GPP.

Ironman15
04-18-2006, 02:12 PM
What does "marketing" matter if we're not buying anything?

Sensei
04-18-2006, 02:41 PM
Well, actually GPP is just what it stands for. So, if you can't run a mile, your GPP sucks. If you can't do general activities decently, your GPP sucks. Running 1 mile isn't anything special here. Therefore, your GPP sucks if you cannot run a mile.
Believe it or not, I'm pretty sure I know what GPP is. There's a lot more to GPP than being able to run a mile. There's a lot more to GPP than doing the WoDs at Crossfit (which has really been my only real point all along). Stretching, dieting, technique work, proprioceptor training, rehab work, bulking, powerlifting, bodybuilding, olympic lifting, etc. could be GPP training individually or collectively depending on what the athlete needs to shore up.
I'm quite sure that I could not run a mile in much less than 10 minutes. I am working on my "GPP" now, however running at all (much less a mile) is not even on my list of training goals.

Canadian Crippler
04-18-2006, 03:31 PM
I'll address these posts later, as I am late for my GPP session at the gym. ;)I had no idea you've started training for a sport. :p

debussy
04-18-2006, 03:35 PM
Ok, I apologize for the name calling. I'm on my period right now which prevents me from having civilized discussions.

And Ironman, you're naive to think that CF does not regenerate a lot of revenue for themselves and the equipment manufacturers. Also, you are being sold on the idea that they are onto some new as far as strength and conditioning goes. Anyway, I'm going back into my corner and staying there.

Anthony
04-18-2006, 04:14 PM
Met-con? I don't think anyone would lose strength with CF. I did, I don't think that's expected though.
I saw your journal. You did a total of 3 "crossfit" workouts in the span of 2 weeks. And all of them were metabolic conditioning.


Taking Mike's Gym out of the equation (it all looks like variations of one type of CF workout), let's deal with CF solely since that is what the argument is about. I've looked at Crossfit, I've looked at EVERY single one of their girls, and I've looked at the WoD's for a while. Rarely do I see something like 3x3, 5x5, or anything similar come up.
A couple of points here. First, the last two weeks have seen 6 days focused on weight lifting using cleans, deadlifts, squat, and bench. That's on par with a lot of weight training programs that use a M-W-F split. Maybe not as much volume as some prefer, but it still works. The second point is that Crossfit, like any good program, is periodized. Right now is actually pretty easy on the weight lifting. There have been cycles where the ME work has been on par with westside and 5x5. The third point is that any one of the WODs can be modified to emphasize your goals. Not interested in the metcon work of Angie? Add weight and don't worry so much about time. The WODs are guidelines and Crossfit suggests you modify them to suit your goals (and plenty of people do add weight). Having said all that, the WOD is still sufficient to build size and strength in all but the advanced trainer.


It differs by degree and kind. Again. you won't find soccer forwards doing box squats or running the 30m. How is that not a difference of kind? Even if we assume you're correct, the difference in degrees would be so substantial that calling the training methods similar would still be incorrect.
If you remove the sport specific movements, everything else is the same. Strength, power, endurance, stamina, agility, flexibility, etc. So you practise your sport to refine your skill and use a S&C program to enhance everything else. The specific events you choose may differ, but if you look at the great big picture, they are all pretty similar. And to think there are no soccer players that drag a sled ... come on ... I just found a ****load of articles on google that talk about soccer players using a sled. Research before you make huge claims!!


If I have a bunch of articles stating that my definition is correct, and you have none stating yours is, why would we be led to believe you are correct? I'm sorry that authors on sites such as EliteFTS agree with me.
The difference is that I can think for myself. I'm sure the guys at EliteFTS would agree with both definitions. GPP is used more often when talking about athletes because it makes the distinction between skill training (SPP) and S&C training. Read your article and tell me what they are trying to improve with GPP. Those same things apply to non athletes.


If you can find me someone who used CF and only CF and got bigger and/or stronger than someone who followed a traditional weight training program, than be my guest.
It's impossible. Crossfit is more about training principles than a specific program. If I use powerlifts, olympic lifts, gymnastics, and sprinting ... is it Crossfit? Is it GPP for football? Is it bodybuilding? How many times am I allowed to squat/deadlift/clean per week before you say, "sorry, that's not crossfit?" See my point? Crossfit promotes balance, which may not be your focus, but in the long run a balanced approach is going to keep you in the game longer with less injuries.


As much as I do like CF, it's a total trend here on WBB. Everyone in this thread always knew about the existance of tire flips, burpees, and rowing. 1/2 of you never tried it until Anthony whored it out. I'm not saying it's a bad program to include, but it's more trendy than essential it seems.
People who give it an honest effort (and not just pick a few of the "easy" metcon workouts) are hard pressed to deny its usefulness. If it's not enough to reach your goals, add more. That's highly promoted.

Anthony
04-18-2006, 04:22 PM
I would never start a beginner on CF. Have a beginner do 20 snatches in a row and see what happens. $20 he'll get injured and hate lifting. For all you fools thinking CF is a great way for a good way for beginners to build a base... I think that you need to have a solid base before you start CF. Throwing up and dying is not normal. Common sense that the you should take time to master the lifts before trying to do the lifts to failure (or near failure).
I agree. It's covered: http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/start-how.html


I have no problems with CF... it's great for getting your endurance up. However, I do have a problem with you people who think it's the next best thing. CF type training has existed forever... you guys are suckers to good marketing.
No one claimed CF is revolutionary. They use olympic lifting, power lifting, gymnastics, "old skool" strongman stuff, and sprinting for the majority of their work. Obviously they didn't invent any of those training methodologies. What they did, however, is combine all of the good elements from each of those methodologies into an organized approach to GPP. Call it what you want, trendy, marketing, whatever, but it works. And yeah, the information is free.


CF is the solution to world hunger.
Pass the koolaid! ;)

Anthony
04-18-2006, 04:24 PM
I had no idea you've started training for a sport. :p
har har. But yeah, I do train for a sport.

ArchAngel777
04-18-2006, 04:34 PM
It's impossible. Crossfit is more about training principles than a specific program. If I use powerlifts, olympic lifts, gymnastics, and sprinting ... is it Crossfit? Is it GPP for football? Is it bodybuilding? How many times am I allowed to squat/deadlift/clean per week before you say, "sorry, that's not crossfit?" See my point? Crossfit promotes balance, which may not be your focus, but in the long run a balanced approach is going to keep you in the game longer with less injuries.

Agree 100% :D

Canadian Crippler
04-18-2006, 04:45 PM
I saw your journal. You did a total of 3 "crossfit" workouts in the span of 2 weeks. And all of them were metabolic conditioning.I stopped posting workouts in there until 4 sessions ago or so, I've completed way more than 3 crossfit workouts.


A couple of points here. First, the last two weeks have seen 6 days focused on weight lifting using cleans, deadlifts, squat, and bench. That's on par with a lot of weight training programs that use a M-W-F split. Maybe not as much volume as some prefer, but it still works.Yeah, I know. My point was I didn't find anything that looked like the typical crossfit WoD, which is usually not low rep weight training.


The second point is that Crossfit, like any good program, is periodized. Right now is actually pretty easy on the weight lifting. There have been cycles where the ME work has been on par with westside and 5x5.Two points. 1) None of the girls are designed to be optimal for the goal of size and strength solely. Maybe one is. 2) I've been on the site for 3+ months and I'm yet to see any cycle with more than very occasional ME work.


The third point is that any one of the WODs can be modified to emphasize your goals. Not interested in the metcon work of Angie? Add weight and don't worry so much about time.The more you modify it the emphasize the goal of size and strength, the more it will look like a traditional weightlifting program. You're not getting me; Why follow a program that addresses unwanted goals when you can follow a program that focuses on the specific goals?


If you remove the sport specific movements, everything else is the same. Strength, power, endurance, stamina, agility, flexibility, etc. So you practise your sport to refine your skill and use a S&C program to enhance everything else. The specific events you choose may differ, but if you look at the great big picture, they are all pretty similar. And to think there are no soccer players that drag a sled ... come on ... I just found a ****load of articles on google that talk about soccer players using a sled. Research before you make huge claims!!I never said soccer players don't drag sleds, smarty. I said they don't practise the 30m and do heavy box squats. And they don't. The Strength and Conditioning programs of a soccer and football player ARE NOT the same. To prove this I will dig up a good amount of running back training programs and do the same for a soccer one. After my workout.


The difference is that I can think for myself. I'm sure the guys at EliteFTS would agree with both definitions. GPP is used more often when talking about athletes because it makes the distinction between skill training (SPP) and S&C training. Read your article and tell me what they are trying to improve with GPP. Those same things apply to non athletes."1) the formation, strengthening or restoration of habits (skills) which play an auxiliary, facilitory role in sports perfectioning.
Clearly only applies to an athlete and his sport.

2) As a means of educating abilities, developed insufficiently by the selected type of sport, raising the general work capacity or preserving it.
Again, clearly only applies to a sport. How do you educate abilities if there is no measure of ability to begin with?

3) As active rest, assisting the restoration processes after significant, specific loading and counteracting the monotony of the training. These functions define the role of the general-preparatory exercises in the athlete’s training system.”
I don't even know what this means, sounds like it's saying as a form of AR though.


It's impossible. Crossfit is more about training principles than a specific program. If I use powerlifts, olympic lifts, gymnastics, and sprinting ... is it Crossfit? Is it GPP for football? Is it bodybuilding? How many times am I allowed to squat/deadlift/clean per week before you say, "sorry, that's not crossfit?" See my point? Crossfit promotes balance, which may not be your focus, but in the long run a balanced approach is going to keep you in the game longer with less injuries.Obviously I'm not one to draw that line. By the definition given on there site, Crossfit would be anything that increases the overall level of fitness. This includes strength and power, maybe even size, but as well endurance, flexibility, etc. My point is not that Crossfit doesn't address the needed aspects of training for size/strength, but rather the inefficiency of splitting the frequency of this training with training that doesn't coincide with the goals at hand. Prevent injuries? Don't give me that. You can prevent injuries just as well with a traditional weightlifting split using proper form and post workout stretches.


People who give it an honest effort (and not just pick a few of the "easy" metcon workouts) are hard pressed to deny its usefulness. If it's not enough to reach your goals, add more. That's highly promoted.I didn't do that, lol. I did the WoD's for about a month, I just didn't update my journal at all. I went back and forth in thinking if I wanted to try it, but in the end I did. I enjoyed it, I still do enjoy it. I found them fun and I pushed myself as much as I could. It's not a bad program, and it's not bad for a change. I just don't think it should be recommended as the core of the program for a beginner looking to get big and strong.

Anthony
04-18-2006, 05:10 PM
The girls are designed as benchmarks for metcon work. Big deal. ME work is designed as benchmarks for limit strength. Do you really think the "girls" are the entirety of Crossfit? It may be what stands out and grabs your attention, but they are pretty minor in the grand scheme of events. If you've read every WOD for 3 months and have been unable to see a pattern, you aren't looking hard enough. I went back 2 weeks during a pretty light cycle of weightlifting and found 6 days devoted to it. And if you adjust the weight to suit your level/goal, you could have a ****load more.

And are you really still arguing semantics? Athlete: A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts. I really hope this puts an end to the discussion on who does GPP, because I'm seriously starting to think you're ******ed.

Look, if you don't agree with their principles, that's cool. I'm not trying to force anyone to do it. I think it's a great program and will be the core of my training for as long as I can imagine, but I understand not everyone wants to do it. I do think Crossfit or any solid GPP program is a good place to start for beginners for a few reasons. First, it's organized, easy, and scalable. Second, it builds a good foundation in a variety of fitness protocols that makes it easier to expand into more specific areas. Dave Tate agrees with this based on his article that I suggested to you (Education of a Powerlifter). Third, it's fun and produces results. I know you're caught up in your poor performance, but maybe you bit off more than you could chew and ran yourself into the ground.

I think this discussion ran its course. There are those of us who feel Crossfit and the WOD will build size and strength and those who don't. That's 100% okay.

Built
04-18-2006, 05:12 PM
And if you don't think it will build size, you can simply disregard Anthony's avatar.

Canadian Crippler
04-18-2006, 05:16 PM
My WoD performance was actually decent in many regards, my only problem was that my ME work on deads/bench/rows/etc wasn't moving along and in some cases falling. I don't think this would be the case with everyone and thus don't think this persuaded my decision.


Athlete: A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts. I really hope this puts an end to the discussion on who does GPP, because I'm seriously starting to think you're ******ed.Read the 3 definitions smart guy. They are all sport specific, not athlete specific.

Canadian Crippler
04-18-2006, 05:16 PM
And if you don't think it will build size, you can simply disregard Anthony's avatar.Yeah, because Anthony has been doing Crossfit for the majority of his training career.

Anthony
04-18-2006, 05:20 PM
GPP for someone competing in sport = everything outside of their sport.

GPP for someone not competing in sport = everything.

Canadian Crippler
04-18-2006, 05:21 PM
GPP for someone who doesn't compete in a sport = doesn't exist

:p

Built
04-18-2006, 05:21 PM
Crip, I may be confused here - I had been under the impression that Anthony had been quite stalled in his progress until he started with crossfit.

Anthony
04-18-2006, 05:22 PM
Yeah, because Anthony has been doing Crossfit for the majority of his training career.

After 4 months I'd notice some size and/or strength problems, no?

Anthony
04-18-2006, 05:23 PM
GPP for someone who doesn't compete in a sport = doesn't exist

:p

Being prepared for general activities doesn't exist? Seriously man, you have a brain. Use it. Stop regurgitating the same crap. You know what I'm saying makes sense.

Canadian Crippler
04-18-2006, 05:39 PM
After 4 months I'd notice some size and/or strength problems, no?No. Why would you?

Canadian Crippler
04-18-2006, 05:40 PM
Being prepared for general activities doesn't exist? Seriously man, you have a brain. Use it. Stop regurgitating the same crap. You know what I'm saying makes sense.Of course it makes sense. It's still incorrect. You can be generally physically prepared and not play a sport. GPP still applies to an athlete and his sport though. You can't change the meaning of something just because it could make sense.

Anthony
04-18-2006, 05:52 PM
Hahaha. Man oh man. You got me. All this time I thought you were being serious when really you are just breaking my balls. Good one!

Canadian Crippler
04-18-2006, 05:56 PM
This is the worst argument of all time. You call it GPP, I'll call it GPP-like.

:)

Meat_Head
04-18-2006, 09:40 PM
Come on guys, obviously since soccer players only do GPP because they play a sport, their GPP will consist of only things they that benefit their play on the field... and everyone knows soccer players don't do SQUATS or SPRINTS. Why would they waste time on something like that?

As long as people are throwing definitions around... GPP = General Physical Preparedness

gen·er·al adj.
-Concerned with, applicable to, or affecting the whole or every member of a class or category
-Of or affecting the entire body
-Not limited in scope, area, or application
-Not limited to or dealing with one class of things; diversified
-Involving only the main features rather than precise details

Sensei
04-19-2006, 06:15 AM
Not that it really matters, but Matveyev was using GPP as part of a macro and microcyclical program consisting of GPP, SPP and SSP. I don't have his texts, but I could probably summarize things from Siff if people have questions.
Anywho, Anthony and Crip, why don't you guys just let whoever have the last word? It's clear that neither one of you is going to give on your definition of what GPP is and is not.

Anthony
04-24-2006, 05:58 AM
Last 3 days ... max effort power cleans, deadlifts 7x5, and max effort front squats. ;)

Canadian Crippler
04-24-2006, 06:16 AM
7x5 is misleading. It's 7x5, supersetted with ring dips, and all 5 sets done consecutively. Hmm, I think I'll stick with my pink DBs instead. :p

Oh: 1 rep sets of max front squats is hardly hypertrophy oriented.

And... I still put up better numbers than the majority of those guys, and I'm just 17, and I've been training for 1/3 of the time, and it's not even like I'm actually strong.

Sensei
04-24-2006, 06:30 AM
AAAAARRRRRHGGHHHHH! I'm about ready to KAH-RAH-TAY both you A-HO'S!

Anthony
04-24-2006, 06:35 AM
And... I still put up better numbers than the majority of those guys

AAAAAAHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Funniest **** I heard all day!

fixationdarknes
04-24-2006, 06:38 AM
Wuet. Front Squats.

Anthony
04-24-2006, 06:53 AM
AAAAARRRRRHGGHHHHH! I'm about ready to KAH-RAH-TAY both you A-HO'S!

lol, I'm just giving him a hard time.

Meat_Head
04-24-2006, 01:40 PM
Front squat singles don't build muscle mass? Huh?

Canadian Crippler
04-24-2006, 02:42 PM
AAAAAAHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Funniest **** I heard all day!I'll put my WBB membership on the line that I am stronger than atleat 85% of that forum. Max wise.

And no, Front Squat singles are not hypertrophy oriented. Singles in general are not, but front squats even more specifically. Doesn't mean it doesn't build muscle, I never said that. Pushups can build muscle.

EDIT: Out of 96 replies, I found 7 that were possibly stronger than me. I rarely train this movement at all, but I believe I could do mid 200s (205 for 5 was my best, with room to spare). The best on the site was 285, followed by a 275, and 2 or 3 265's. Then a couple 245-255's. Those are some good numbers indeed, but they were in the minority. I believe if I trained this movement as consistantly as they the only dudes who would have me are the 285 and 275.

In fact, I'll prove it. Even though the meds I'm on keep me crippled 1/2 the time, I'll have my front squat where I just predicted within 5 weeks. And remember, I'm just some skinny 17 year old punk. :p

I will admit though, I underestimated the strength of some dudes on that site. The quick replies from the main page have some strong guys, the forum itself didn't seem to have many though.

Skinny Fat
04-24-2006, 03:50 PM
I think Anthony may be overstating it a little - it is a GPP site, open to all comers, so I would say being stronger than 85% of the active posters on the site probably isn't that big a deal. There are loads of soccer moms and 60 year old dudes on the site... would you be proud of out-squatting a 36-year-old mother of three?

On the other hand, there are plenty of really strong dudes (and a couple of obscenely strong women) on there, at different levels of activity (so you may not see their stats).

On the third hand (third hand, wtf?), I can't believe you two are still at this. :) Makes me want to put somebody in time out.

Sensei
04-24-2006, 03:52 PM
I would say that anyone who trains consistently is going to be stronger than most people who hang out at discussion forums... That's not saying much - so what is the point?


On the third hand (third hand, wtf?), I can't believe you two are still at this. Makes me want to put somebody in time out.EXACTLY! I'm about to put the KAH-RAH-TAY action down on someone...

Canadian Crippler
04-24-2006, 03:52 PM
Most of those numbers posted are in the mid to high 100s. Mothers of three aren't doing that, I'd say the crowd is 18 - 30 as a large majority.

Anthony
04-24-2006, 04:10 PM
Well, I don't really care one way or another, I was just lighting a fire under your ass.

I was impressed with the front squats posted by everyone today. About half who post in the comments are fairly new to training in general. The other half have been training awhile, but maybe half of those come from endurance back grounds. The other half of that (quarter) are probably on par with the numbers people post on this site (on average). The real stars rarely post in the comments. There are maybe half a dozen of the elites who post there on a regular basis and you can pick those out pretty easily.

Having said, from what I have seen, most of the people who hang around the forums are 30-50.

Canadian Crippler
04-24-2006, 04:21 PM
As I mentioned, the forum group seems to be different. I was looking at the numbers posted in some of the forum threads and that's why I initially thought "pathetic". Maybe I was just looking at some bad threads, who knows. Either way, if I get my front squat as one of the top 5 out of the 90+ replies my point is proven.

Sensei
04-24-2006, 04:22 PM
Ok, I warned you round-eyes!

http://www.kapowgifts.com/acatalog/bruce-lee-bw-attack.jpg

Meat_Head
04-25-2006, 01:17 PM
lol

Rex
04-25-2006, 02:19 PM
I forget the guys name, one of those dudes in all the videos, but he did 225 for 15-15-15 or something like that. It said somewhere his max DL was 365. Not to mention how long these guys have been training for.

I do high rep sets of deads. I've pulled 280 x 10, my max is 320 x 1. I'm pretty sure I can pull 225 all day long. In fact, I may just try it in a week or so. But I guess my point is that I agree with you Crip, and this is based solely on my personal experience. High reps with light weight isn't very impressive.

So you can pull 225 x 20. Big ****ing deal. Now Chris Mason pulling 400 + x 15 is a big ****ing deal.

Canadian Crippler
04-25-2006, 02:22 PM
Yep, strong mofo. And they were SLDLs!

Rex
04-25-2006, 03:15 PM
Just would like to add that GPP for a weightlifter is used primarily as something that increases work capacity for "the spp". GPP affects on "the training" are therefore indirect.

You could very easily use cardio as GPP. Jump rope. Do jumping jacks. Or dance like a cast member of cats. It makes no difference.

CF has become cult like. It's scary.

I can respect and appreciate CF for what it is. One day my goals might be furthered by incorporating a CF like regimine into my training but right now my goals are to get bigger and stronger.

Anthony did not build his physique utilizing CF workouts, and if we were to ask Chris how he naturally built up his strength to a 600+ deadlift the recipe would look nothing like a CF WOD.

I realize some of you guys want to be the "all arounder" types. Run fast, have endurance, strength, ect... You guys want it all. CF is good for that. Jack all trades, master of none.

I just want to be strong.

CF is not good for that.

Canadian Crippler
04-25-2006, 03:30 PM
If I might add, Anthony's strength gains in terms of 5RM have dropped significantly on the CF program when comparing it to his sole use of the 5x5 program.

EDIT: For clarification, I'm saying his gains currently are existent but not to the extent they were on the sole 5x5 program. Could be periodization, dunno, but in terms of actual increase over the last 3 months from browsing his journal this above statement can be drawn.

Anthony
04-25-2006, 03:41 PM
I just want to be strong.

CF is not good for that.

Don't take this the wrong way, but ...

My girlfriend has been training for about 6 months using Crossfit and a little bit of 5x5. Pound for pound, she outlifts you. Actually, pound for pound she outlifts A LOT of guys. In a year or two, she'll be the exact example that Mitch is looking for - an asskicking GPP machine.

Again, don't take that as an insult. I respect everyone who trains. I'm just giving you an example of someone who has developed excellent strength in a very short period of time using Crossfit. If it's not your style, that's totally cool.

Sensei
04-25-2006, 03:44 PM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/johnnymnemonic/14e9bc8c.jpghttp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/johnnymnemonic/14e9bc8c.jpghttp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/johnnymnemonic/14e9bc8c.jpg

ArchAngel777
04-25-2006, 03:44 PM
I do not consider crossfit a cult. Just like every group of people out there, you will always find the absolute zealots. I don't think anyone on this forum is what I would call a CF zealot. However, I have seen some Anti-CF zealots stop in this thread...

Whatever the case, if you don't like crossfit, don't do it. If you like it, do it.

Canadian Crippler
04-25-2006, 03:45 PM
If I'm not mistaken, she actually uses 5x5 or 1-5RM weight training quite often. My argument is with the sole use of CF vs. the sole use of traditional training.

Anthony
04-25-2006, 03:45 PM
If I might add, Anthony's strength gains in terms of 5RM have dropped significantly on the CF program when comparing it to his sole use of the 5x5 program.

EDIT: For clarification, I'm saying his gains currently are existent but not to the extent they were on the sole 5x5 program. Could be periodization, dunno, but in terms of actual increase over the last 3 months from browsing his journal this above statement can be drawn.

For clarification:
- my original 5x5 wave started quite low, therefore gains were more consistent because I was well below my peak
- I've had injuries due to fighting
- Change of focus - 99% of the time, I'm the strongest guy on the mat. Periodize to bring up weak areas (conditioning) and don't worry so much about strength.

;)

Skinny Fat
04-25-2006, 03:48 PM
Just would like to add that GPP for a weightlifter is used primarily as something that increases work capacity for "the spp". GPP affects on "the training" are therefore indirect.

You could very easily use cardio as GPP. Jump rope. Do jumping jacks. Or dance like a cast member of cats. It makes no difference.

CF has become cult like. It's scary.

I can respect and appreciate CF for what it is. One day my goals might be furthered by incorporating a CF like regimine into my training but right now my goals are to get bigger and stronger.

Anthony did not build his physique utilizing CF workouts, and if we were to ask Chris how he naturally built up his strength to a 600+ deadlift the recipe would look nothing like a CF WOD.

I realize some of you guys want to be the "all arounder" types. Run fast, have endurance, strength, ect... You guys want it all. CF is good for that. Jack all trades, master of none.

I just want to be strong.

CF is not good for that.

:thumbup: I would say, though, 'CF is less good for that'. Not not good.

I've actually fought with the whole 'I don't want to do this because it's trendy on the board' thing, but XFit exactly fits into my goals for the summer right now. I've built up a decent amount of muscle the last 4 months or so, but at this point I want to get leaner, harder, and all-around better. I want to be able to run a mile, swim a mile, bench 2pps a few times, DL 3pps a few times, do a crapload of pull-ups... in other words, XFit is what I want to be able to do.

Definitely not for everybody on WBB. :french:

Canadian Crippler
04-25-2006, 03:48 PM
Weak areas, for someone looking to be big and strong, is not conditioning. It's triceps, it's lats, it's the lockout on the bench or the bottom of the squat. That's my point, and that's why I agree with rex.

Since we're bringing teh bitties into the equation -- Guido's wife. http://wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=59333&page=27

Traditional weight training, a little over a year.

Anthony
04-25-2006, 03:49 PM
If I'm not mistaken, she actually uses 5x5 or 1-5RM weight training quite often. My argument is with the sole use of CF vs. the sole use of traditional training.

Your argument is kind of dumb. CF isn't just the WOD. It's a set of principals. Therefore, WOD + 5x5 still equals Crossfit. And if you want to argue that just the WOD isn't good for building strength, well, the WOD is constantly evolving to include principles that increase all aspects of fitness, strength being one of them. The inclusion of 5x5, triples, doubles, and singles are relatively (past 12-18 months) new to the programing based on feedback from the community.

I dunno why I keep responding to ya, I guess because you amuse me. :moon:

Sensei
04-25-2006, 03:50 PM
I'm about to lay a cyber-beat-down, the likes of never seen before at WBB...
http://www.journaled.com/MA/Aikido/SSeagal/sseagal.jpg

ArchAngel777
04-25-2006, 03:51 PM
Don't take this the wrong way, but ...

My girlfriend has been training for about 6 months using Crossfit and a little bit of 5x5. Pound for pound, she outlifts you. Actually, pound for pound she outlifts A LOT of guys. In a year or two, she'll be the exact example that Mitch is looking for - an asskicking GPP machine.

Again, don't take that as an insult. I respect everyone who trains. I'm just giving you an example of someone who has developed excellent strength in a very short period of time using Crossfit. If it's not your style, that's totally cool.

Well, this is the case of many woman though... Pound for pound, women can be extremely competitive with men and even exceed us.

Sensei
04-25-2006, 03:52 PM
Well, this is the case of many woman though... Pound for pound, women can be extremely competitive with men and even exceed us.Usually NOT with upper body exercises...

ArchAngel777
04-25-2006, 03:53 PM
Your argument is kind of dumb. CF isn't just the WOD. It's a set of principals. Therefore, WOD + 5x5 still equals Crossfit. And if you want to argue that just the WOD isn't good for building strength, well, the WOD is constantly evolving to include principles that increase all aspects of fitness, strength being one of them. The inclusion of 5x5, triples, doubles, and singles are relatively (past 12-18 months) new to the programing based on feedback from the community.

I dunno why I keep responding to ya, I guess because you amuse me. :moon:

Anthony is right. Crossfit is more versatile that you guys think... Crossfit was designed, in my opinion, to be diverse and customizable. Crossfit can be done on your off days. I mean, there are many variations of it... I just don't see why everyone is getting upset over this...

Anthony
04-25-2006, 03:56 PM
Since we're bringing teh bitties into the equation -- Guido's wife. http://wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=59333&page=27

Traditional weight training, a little over a year.

That's awesome! I think that's a great example of the progress that can be made using different methods that apply the same principles (to varying degress, obviously).

Not to take away from Lynn's accomplishments, because I am sure her and Guido are both extremely proud, but your post is a bit misleading, Crip.

First, Lynn has 30lbs on Jodi. Second, their numbers are very similar. Lynn has higher numbers on some things, Jodi has higher numbers on others. Third, Lynn has an athletic background that could be argued as an incredible gpp base (swimming). And lastly, she's been hitting the weights for almost 18 months.

Again, I am not taking away from her accomplishments, I truly think they are awesome and if her original goals are still the same ("improve my overall fitness level") I would encourage her to look into Crossfit.

ArchAngel777
04-25-2006, 03:57 PM
Usually NOT with upper body exercises...

Very true, yes.

Canadian Crippler
04-25-2006, 04:02 PM
Your argument is kind of dumb. CF isn't just the WOD. It's a set of principals. Therefore, WOD + 5x5 still equals Crossfit.I was referring to solely working at WOD's and the girls. That is what YOU recommended in this thread and you've understood that is my argument this whole time. I'm lazy, but I have posts in here saying CF + Regular Specific Training would deem good results. I'm discussing Specific Training vs. CF, not CF + ____.


the WOD is constantly evolving to include principles that increase all aspects of fitness, strength being one of them.Exactly. If the trainee doesn't give a crap about the other aspects of fitness, having them train for it, let alone making the specific training a minority, is flat out inefficient.



So let's look at what we have here in terms of actual evidence:
- Your gains have dropped as you started to use Crossfit.
- My gains dropped as I started to use Crossfit.
- The majority of people on this forum using traditional weight training splits would outlift the majority of people on that forum using CF. This is especially significant because there are a hell lot of 16-18 year olds here and almost none over there.
- You're yet to find me an example of someone who used CF only and became big and strong.

I can show you dozens of dudes who in 2 years got much much bigger and much much stronger using only traditional weight training. You can't do the same for Crossfit enthusiasts. I've shown you people who's gains dropped as they started CF, but you're yet to show me someone who's gains skyrocketed.

Balance, GPP, Fitness, none of these words mean anything if the results are not their to show. Show me.

Anthony
04-25-2006, 04:22 PM
I recommended Crossfit to Fix. I never said the WOD. I never said the "girls." I said Crossfit. Understand what Crossfit represents and you'll understand why your argument has no value.

Tate, Simmons, and every other big name powerlifter understands the importance of balance and GPP. Otherwise they wouldn't be writing articles that encourage people to build a good foundation before getting specific. But hey, wtf do I know.

I have continued to set numerous PRs since I started Crossfit. So has Jodi. Your refusal to acknowledge this just because I don't follow the EXACT wod every single time just brings us back to the beginning - which is that you don't know what Crossfit is.

You're asking for an example that is impossible to show. Why is it impossible? The term "crossfit" has only been around a couple of years and everyone who started using it were elite athletes looking to improve their S&C. Which they did. And most of the people who start crossfit now are also athletes in other sports. So anyone who might possible fit your criteria of "crossfit only" would be discounted because they may have done squats previous to hearing the word "crossfit."

:D

Anthony
04-25-2006, 04:33 PM
BTW, crip. I checked out your journal. Your first post said you doubled the weight on your lifts in 1 year. The highlights from your workouts just after that post include a 135x2 bench press, and a 145x6 bench press. The rest were a bunch of curls and ****. I couldn't find a squat or deadlift on the first page, so I took your 300x8 leg press. Oh and you had about 40lbs on her.

That's damn impressive for 1 year of work. After reading that, I think I may switch her over to your routine. You got it going on, bruh!

Edit: I made up a quick little excel sheet to compare Jodi's progress with Mitch's progress. It's pretty cool!

Edit 2: I know the numbers I quoted in my post and the numbers in the spreadsheet are off, but they all came from Mitch's Journal and Picture threads.

ArchAngel777
04-25-2006, 04:38 PM
BTW, crip. I checked out your journal. Your first post said you doubled the weight on your lifts in 1 year. The highlights from your workouts just after that post include a 135x2 bench press, and a 145x6 bench press. The rest were a bunch of curls and ****. I couldn't find a squat or deadlift on the first page, so I took your 300x8 leg press. Oh and you had about 40lbs on her.

That's damn impressive for 1 year of work. After reading that, I think I may switch her over to your routine. You got it going on, bruh!

Ouch... That hurt even me.

Rex
04-25-2006, 04:39 PM
Don't take this the wrong way, but ...

My girlfriend has been training for about 6 months using Crossfit and a little bit of 5x5. Pound for pound, she outlifts you. Actually, pound for pound she outlifts A LOT of guys. In a year or two, she'll be the exact example that Mitch is looking for - an asskicking GPP machine.

lol, well I'll just have to take your word for it. But what does that actually prove?

Look, when I started lifting I weighed 125 pounds at 5'10". That's alot of height with very little mass. Frankly, I'm not surprised your girl outlifts me. Mostly everyone outlifts me, especially on the internet.

But a year and a half later I'm plus 35 pounds and all my lifts are now "normal". I'm not big, I'm not strong, but I am smart! And I'm smart enough to realize that CF will not take me to where I want to go.

And if I would have came to WBB in Sept 04, weighing 125 pounds and weaker than your average chick and found this CF stuff recommended to get "big and strong" it would have been a great injustice. I would have greatly increased work capacity.

Thank God what I did find was Paul Stagg talking about eat everything in sight, that mothers should hide their children in fear that you might eat them. Chris Mason talking about a handful of big compound lifts using big weights with moderate volume.

fixationdarknes
04-25-2006, 04:46 PM
Anthony, I'm not sure I understand what "Crossfit" truly is. What are the principles you speak of?

Anthony
04-25-2006, 04:58 PM
lol, well I'll just have to take your word for it. But what does that actually prove?

I kind of felt bad for throwing that out there because I know it sounds like I'm putting you down, but really I am not. You should be proud of your accomplishments. You've done really well for yourself, and I'm not just saying that. Crip should be proud of his accomplishments too. He used to be a scrawny annoying brat. Now he's a buff annoying brat. ;)

The point was that even a GPP program like Crossfit can produce results that "bodybuilders" are looking for, depending on their level. Is ronnie going to get huge using Crossfit? Hell no. Is Fix? Most likely. Hell, over the past 5 months I've had people ask me if I put on weight.

Bottom line, it's a good program. It might not be as focused as Crip wants, but the results can be pretty similar if you eat right.

Anthony
04-25-2006, 05:05 PM
Anthony, I'm not sure I understand what "Crossfit" truly is. What are the principles you speak of?

Read my signature.

Maki Riddington
04-25-2006, 05:17 PM
Tate, Simmons, and every other big name powerlifter understands the importance of balance and GPP. Otherwise they wouldn't be writing articles that encourage people to build a good foundation before getting specific. But hey, wtf do I know.


:D

The problem with Tate was he never worked on a foundation. It wasn't until he realized his foundation was not solid that he looked at including GPP into his overall program.

Anthony
04-25-2006, 05:19 PM
The problem with Tate was he never worked on a foundation. It wasn't until he realized his foundation was not solid that he looked at including GPP into his overall program.

I think this is a common problem in today's athletes, not just Tate. But you're right. Tate started taking this stuff more seriously as his injuries started piling up and cramping his progress. And it just makes sense. Build the foundation, then expand. But I think our society is too impatient for that "nonesense" and then jumps right into it. I'm guilty of it. We all are. But looking back I wish I had started with this stuff a looooooong time ago. Better late than never, I guess.

Rex
04-25-2006, 05:21 PM
Bottom line, it's a good program. It might not be as focused as Crip wants, but the results can be pretty similar if you eat right.

I don't think anyone is saying it's not a good program. The fact is that *anything* can be a good program if done progressively.

I think what Crip is saying, and I'm agreeing, is that for many of us there are much better ways to achieve our goals.

My goals for 2006: ATF Squat 280 x 5, Deadlift 370 x 5, OH Press 125 x 5, OH Squat 165 x 5, Bench 180 x 5.

How do you suggest I get there?
Crossfit WODs
or Legs/push/pull 5x5 ?

Anthony
04-25-2006, 05:33 PM
The fact is that *anything* can be a good program if done progressively.
Exactly. This answers everything right here.


I think what Crip is saying, and I'm agreeing, is that for many of us there are much better ways to achieve our goals.
There isn't one program in the world that will suit everyone's goals. You simply apply principles to emphasize your priorities. That's the beauty of Crossfit - they give you principles and you adapt them to your goals. Come from a Powerlifting background and need to improve conditioning? Add in some met-con work in addition to your powerlifting. Come from a endurance background and need to improve your strength? Add in some powerlifting and olympic lifting in addition to your triathlon training. You're still using all the pieces of the puzzle, but you focus on the aspects that you want to improve the most. I don't need Lance Armstrong endurance, but right now I know my strength is more than adequate for what I want, so I'm not pushing it as hard. When my conditioning comes up to speed, I can simply cut back on the met-con work and resume the strength stuff. Makes sense right? No one said this stuff was revolutionary ... !


How do you suggest I get there?
Crossfit WODs
or Legs/push/pull 5x5 ?
Both! Even if all you get out of the WOD is improved conditioning and confidence, that will help in the long run - especially when you start to peak and reach plateaus.

Rex
04-25-2006, 08:20 PM
Both! Even if all you get out of the WOD is improved conditioning and confidence, that will help in the long run - especially when you start to peak and reach plateaus.

I knew you were going to say both.

My resources are limited. And by resources I mean energy (mental and physical) + recuperative abilities.

I want to increase certain lifts. Why would you recommend what is essentially HIIT to someone that wants to add 100 pounds to his five rep deadlift? Keeping in mind I don't want to lean out or improve strength-endurance and my resources are limited.

Don't you think there are more efficient ways to improve my deadlift, squat, bench press, calf raise, whatever, than directing my energy towards WODs?

It's almost a loaded question because in many ways I already have my mind made up. But really all I'm interested in is results. And earlier in this thread you stated how much CF has helped you.

But look Anthony, it's easy for you to herald the coming of CF after you've trained a number of years, added plenty of pounds to your compound lifts, presumably gained alot of weight, leaned out to reveal alot of muscle and essentially obtained what alot of people desire out of their bodies.

It's easy for you to suggest CF but that's not even what you used to get to where you wanted to go! Do you understand my point?

Here's what I'm taking away from this. You think that adding some high intensity cardio to my program will add non-trivial weight to my lifts. Is that right?

Sensei
04-25-2006, 11:32 PM
Seriously... It's getting ridiculous people. No one has really said anything of substance that hasn't already been said for a while now.

We ALL need GPP. If you don't do it and you continue training for any significant amount of time, you're headed for a wall or an injury eventually. GPP can mean many different things and it may or may not entail CF. End of story.

Canadian Crippler
04-26-2006, 12:00 AM
BTW, crip. I checked out your journal. Your first post said you doubled the weight on your lifts in 1 year. The highlights from your workouts just after that post include a 135x2 bench press, and a 145x6 bench press. The rest were a bunch of curls and ****. I couldn't find a squat or deadlift on the first page, so I took your 300x8 leg press. Oh and you had about 40lbs on her.

That's damn impressive for 1 year of work. After reading that, I think I may switch her over to your routine. You got it going on, bruh!

Edit: I made up a quick little excel sheet to compare Jodi's progress with Mitch's progress. It's pretty cool!

Edit 2: I know the numbers I quoted in my post and the numbers in the spreadsheet are off, but they all came from Mitch's Journal and Picture threads.Firstly, I trained with a piss poor split and diet for almost the whole first year. Secondly, my bench was 225 after 2 years, not 165. Squat was 315 for 2, not 275. Your chart is terribly incorrect.

Here's something I came up with this past summer:

Bench: Feb 2004 - 95lbs x 8 (1/2 ROM) --> June 2005 165lbs x 8 (full ROM)
-- 1 year 4 months, 70lb increase and increase in ROM.

Squat: Jan 2005 - 185lbs x 10 (slightly above parallel) --> August 2005 - 275 x 5 (ass to ankles)
-- 7 months, 90lb increase and change from parallel to ATF.

Deadlift: January 2005 - 225 x 2 ---> July 2005 - 375 x 1
-- 6 months, 150lb increase

Pullups: September 2004 - 7 x BW (~160-165 lbs) ---> July 2005 - 5 x BW+25 (~195 lbs)
-- 10 months, 55lb increase

Overhead DB Press: August 2004 - 35s x 6 ---> August 2005 - 60s x 5
-- 12 months, 50lb increase


None of these movements were new to me at the original numbers except for the deadlift. All other movements I had been doing for minimally a month thus these are straight up strength gains. Find me someone, anyone, on Crossfit who matched this. Put someone on Crossfit and make them match this. In fact Anthony, you being the guru of training yourself, we should assume you as well made gains like this at some point, right? Let's see them.

The strength vs. BW argument doesn't work here, because my goals aren't to be strong for my bodyweight.

Sensei
04-26-2006, 12:12 AM
Good job Crip! You've made it official!

http://webpages.acs.ttu.edu/charshey/pics/ThisThreadSucks.jpg

Ironman15
04-26-2006, 12:15 AM
You know what no wants the balls or has the balls. But I'll match it doing crossfit alone. Problem is I weigh 50 lbs less so comparing our numbers besides pound for pound wouldn't exactly be adequate. But another problem comes along, are we talking WOD's only as crossfit or crossfit + 5x5 or what? As Anthony's definition, crossfit isn't just the WOD's. But for ****'s and giggles I'll put my balls on the line. Just because I think I can get stronger with crossfit and lift as much as you. Here are my stats right now all max guesses because I haven't maxed out in anything since I started lifting again and the big three are each decently far off from my previous maxes:

Weight: 140
Bench: 185
Deadlift: 300
Squat: 300 (back is messed up but no biggie)
Pullups: BW+50
Overhead DB press: used 55's in the past for 5 but been doing standing military press at 100-8.

But hell, I'll take the challenge. Stop the debate. We'll find out if it crossfit can produce a strong human being. Because the only way to find out, is to actually do it. Crip and Anothony tell me what to do and i'll do it. I'll be the research project, this should be fun.

Canadian Crippler
04-26-2006, 12:55 AM
My argument has ALWAYS been about the WoD's and the WoD's only. I'm 99.9% sure Anthony knows this.

Anthony
04-26-2006, 04:04 AM
Rex, in the short term you may see more gains by using specific movements. In the long term, you'll wish you paid more attention to this stuff. Again, I'm not trying to convince you to use it, but to ignore or discount the benefits, however indirect, isn't really fair. But to each their own.

I've trained a number of years using the same principles pushed by crossfit: big compound movements, calisthenics, plyometrics, and HIIT. I probably didn't randomize these enough to suit a crossfit purist, but the principles were still there. So no, I don't understand your point. I may have a more organized approach to apply the principles I've used in the past, and some of those principles may be pushed a little harder than others to bring up my weak points, but there haven't been any fundamental changes in principles.

Crossfit isn't just high intensity cardio. I know that's the part everyone latches on to when they try to dismiss it, but that's only one aspect.

The problem is that Mitch turned this into a debate about WODs when that wasn't the original question (look at the title of the thread if you want to know what this discussion is about). But regardless, even if follow the WOD and adjust the weight to suit your level, you'd still make damn good progress. Maybe he will tell you not to increase the weight, because you know, that might produce results. Maybe we should tell him not to increase the weight from week to week either. ;)

AND Mitch, the numbers I got were from your picture thread. The lifts were in the 5-8 rep range, except the deadlift, so the comparison to Jodi's lifts are legit.

The spreadsheet is accurate. I'm actually really surprised you're so adamant about pursuing this debate considering your numbers are in line with the numbers of a 110lbs girl who has been training for 6 months using nothing but Crossfit. Your 2 year numbers will be passed before she has 18 months in the gym. Hell, she's probably ~3-4 months away from the squat/deadlift and she would have to lose strength to match your bench press.

This thread has run its course a long time ago and I'm not overly keen on turning this into a "I'm better than you" thread. You asked for it, so I delivered, but this will be the end of the discussion.

If you wish to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me.