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Jordanbcool
04-17-2006, 11:55 AM
Hey all. I'd like to discuss a wide range of topics on cuts and what people think can/cannot be done on them. Here we go.

Strength

Alot of people say its impossible or damn near it to get stronger on a cut. Why is that? I've found that with tampering of reps/sets, rest, and meal timing you can easily get stronger on a cut. For example. I was having alot of problems with platueas 2 weeks ago. But at the suggestion of holto (or someone else I cant remember) I simply changed my reps. around and presto. Much better strength increase.


Carbs

I've taken the advice of modifying my diet. Right now I'm cutting down to 2400 on workout days and 2200 on non-workout days. I've also started to carb cycle. So far it seems to work for me...Would it make your diet any better to up carbs and lower fats on a cut? This way workouts would be even more explosive. Protein would stay the same but IMO carbs are just as important on a cut as fats are in helping to build muscle/keeping your workouts up to speed. Please some speculation from brickt/built is great. Built is the guru on this forum on carbs cycling :)

Water weight

I'm pretty sure im going to stop weighing myself all together. Why? on cuts and bulks water weight totally throws off the scale and what it has to say. Its so easy to gain 10 pounds in one day from water weight. I cant count the times i've worried about my weight when I just have to sit down and tell myself its all that damned H20 im losing/gaining. I've done more research on it and apparently theres no way to calculate whats water weight and what isnt water weight. A major annoyance...

Calories

I've been looking at the PSMF alot lately. I cannot seem to find the difference between that and a normal cut. Why? In theory you could drop calories to very low levels so long as your protein is high. I've punched some numbers into fitday. I could go as low as 1500 calories and EASILY get my needed protein (Right now I need 190g a day to keep my LMB and I can easily get 220g). Why dosent everyone do this? Workouts going to suck?? No way. Eat one high carb meal pre-workout or take caffeine and your workouts should be great. Also resting more/changing your reps. should help even more, to keep your workouts intense. I wouldnt build muscle I guess (the only difference I can find between PSMF and a normal cut) but hey. If I can lose 10 pounds of almost pure fat in 3 weeks who needs to?

Feel free to respond to one topic. Or all of them. Speculation is welcomed.

-jordan

MJS
04-17-2006, 12:17 PM
All of this stuff has been discussed.

Strength, ultimately depending on how long you have been lifting and how stagnant you have been in lifts, can definitely increase on a cut with the right improvments to a routine.

As far as carbs, I would keep them lower than fats for a cut for sure, cycling them around your workouts. Of course you need some carbs but try to keep them to about 1g/LBM for a cut. (Built will confirm/reject this). Looking for an energy boost? Try popping a caffeine pill or two prior to your lifts.

Water weight, heh. You can still weigh yourself being mindful of constant fluxuations both on a cut and a bulk. Just try to weigh yourself at the same time every day (not actual time but time based on water and food consumption).

Calories. Doesn't matter if you can still get your protein req's fulfilled. You shouldn't be even getting in the neighborhood of 1500, let alone 2000. You have to determine your maintenance calories and base it on that.

Jordanbcool
04-17-2006, 12:25 PM
All of this stuff has been discussed.

Strength, ultimately depending on how long you have been lifting and how stagnant you have been in lifts, can definitely increase on a cut with the right improvments to a routine.

As far as carbs, I would keep them lower than fats for a cut for sure, cycling them around your workouts. Of course you need some carbs but try to keep them to about 1g/LBM for a cut. (Built will confirm/reject this). Looking for an energy boost? Try popping a caffeine pill or two prior to your lifts.

Water weight, heh. You can still weigh yourself being mindful of constant fluxuations both on a cut and a bulk. Just try to weigh yourself at the same time every day (not actual time but time based on water and food consumption).

Calories. Doesn't matter if you can still get your protein req's fulfilled. You shouldn't be even getting in the neighborhood of 1500, let alone 2000. You have to determine your maintenance calories and base it on that.

Why do you say that about calories? My maintinence is 3300. With what I said, whats wrong with dropping it really low. Thats the whole point of making this thread. Everything else was just thoughts.

-jordan

HILL
04-17-2006, 12:33 PM
Strength - obviously if you lower your reps and sets and play with your intensity then you may well increase strength to a point however the longer you are on a cut the lower this will get until its not possible anymore in my opinion due to lack of energy among other things

Carbs - what you are saying is correct however in my opinion fats are just as important in a cut as they help in preserving LBM were as you seem to be focusing on strength and increasing it which is not the point of a cut really. They also help with natty test levels to a point among other things and make you feel fuller than carbs which believe me after 6 months of cutting is very useful.

water weight - weigh ureself in the morning either everyday or the same day weekly and just dnt drink lots of water say an hour or so before you go to bed. my weight goes up atleast 6 pound during the day however im still loosing weight to the point i can see it drop 2/3 days.

psmf - you can only do this for so long without loosing alot of LBM eventually were as a normal cut yu can do for longer plus ive heard its hard to keep off everything you have lost once you stop psmf but i havnt tried it. you workouts will begin to suck and as ive stated above you can only play with reps/sets so much. and if your only trying to loose 10 pounds in 3 weeks then strength and everything else you have mentioned doesnt matter as its only 3 weeks and what you say may work well experiment its half the fun with this sport and come back to us or keep a journal for it

MJS
04-17-2006, 12:40 PM
Why are you going for such a quick drastic cut? Have you tried a traditional cut, taking about 2-3 months?

Jordanbcool
04-17-2006, 12:52 PM
Strength - obviously if you lower your reps and sets and play with your intensity then you may well increase strength to a point however the longer you are on a cut the lower this will get until its not possible anymore in my opinion due to lack of energy among other things

Carbs - what you are saying is correct however in my opinion fats are just as important in a cut as they help in preserving LBM were as you seem to be focusing on strength and increasing it which is not the point of a cut really. They also help with natty test levels to a point among other things and make you feel fuller than carbs which believe me after 6 months of cutting is very useful.

water weight - weigh ureself in the morning either everyday or the same day weekly and just dnt drink lots of water say an hour or so before you go to bed. my weight goes up atleast 6 pound during the day however im still loosing weight to the point i can see it drop 2/3 days.

psmf - you can only do this for so long without loosing alot of LBM eventually were as a normal cut yu can do for longer plus ive heard its hard to keep off everything you have lost once you stop psmf but i havnt tried it. you workouts will begin to suck and as ive stated above you can only play with reps/sets so much. and if your only trying to loose 10 pounds in 3 weeks then strength and everything else you have mentioned doesnt matter as its only 3 weeks and what you say may work well experiment its half the fun with this sport and come back to us or keep a journal for it

I'm going to respond to all of your posts. Since they are pretty well thought out and contain good discussion.

Strength

Indeed. But i've found out or read, that reps/sets dont matter as much as difference. Let me explain. Weight training is all about adaptation right? Also strength is a relative term. If I can curl 40 pound dumbells 3x10 on a bulk, and curl 45 pound dumbells 5x5 on a cut which one is stronger? Back to the adaptation part...What I'm trying to say is that as long as you are changing your reps/sets every 2 months or when you start hitting a plateau you will gain strength. I guess you would eventually stop getting stronger or would you? The skies the limit really.....I'd actually like to see a controlled study on this. I dont know if they have been done yet. But it would research how many things you can change to increase strength before it becomes physically impossible to do any more.....

Carbs

I guess the real question you have to ask yourself is which is more important to you? Carbs or fats during a cut. Both have there advantages/disadvantages....

Water weight

I weight myself once a week, naked, on the same day/time first thing in the morning. However. I've found that my weight fluctuates so much with water that I gain 5-6 pounds of weight depending on what I ate/how much I drank before going to sleep!

Calories

I really dont have anything to say to your post on this. However i'd like to see what brickt/built would have to say on the matter. I would agree though that after a prolonged time you would lose alot of muscle. If your smart about it though and slowly increase your to maintanence you shouldnt gain a pound of fat! Im seriously thinking about creating my own PSMF. It wouldnt be an actual one because my calories would be higher but still really really low. Its just easier for me to hard diet for a shorter time then it is for me to do a more "relaxed" diet for a longer period of time.

-jordan

MJS
04-17-2006, 12:55 PM
I weight myself once a week, naked, on the same day/time first thing in the morning. However. I've found that my weight fluctuates so much with water that I gain 5-6 pounds of weight depending on what I ate/how much I drank before going to sleep!



Read bud.



Water weight, heh. You can still weigh yourself being mindful of constant fluxuations both on a cut and a bulk. Just try to weigh yourself at the same time every day (not actual time but time based on water and food consumption).

Jordanbcool
04-17-2006, 01:01 PM
Why are you going for such a quick drastic cut? Have you tried a traditional cut, taking about 2-3 months?

Time important to me. Why spend 3 months when I can accomplish it in half the time. Also if I slowly increase to maintanece when I'm done I shouldnt have to worry about fat gain.

Its just easier for me to do a hard 3 week diet then it is for me to do a 3 month more relaxed diet. After extended periods of time i've found my will goes away and I tend to lose control and gourge myself once a week. Let me put it another way.

Its easier to keep fat jordy down for shorter periods of time. However after longer amounts of dieting he ends up winning the day. He dosent crave to be full because he gets that all the time cutting or bulking. He craves junk food, and lots of it. I'm talking buffet style eating. It seems to happen every 3 weeks. After which I usually have a breakdown and eat everything I want. More reasons?

1) Its not a good indication on the scale when I can easliy lose and gain 10 pounds overnight just because of water weight.
2) I go out and have alot of fun every once in a while. Its alot worse to do this on a slow cut then a fast cut. Why? On a slow cut I eat more calories and the "binge" eating I do wrecks my diet. On a lower calorie diet I can get away with these and stay on track.
3) Basically slower cuts on easier for most people but not for me...Atleast thats what im thinking.

-jordan

MJS
04-17-2006, 01:05 PM
The only cheating of the body that I know of is the use of gear. If you're going to cut I would suggest you cut properly because it is not going to be the same if you do PSMF. To each his own however.

You can still have fun on a cut. Cheat days are good to kick start your metabolism.

MJS
04-17-2006, 01:15 PM
Bottom line is that cutting does require a lot of dedictation (which you should have) and discipline (difficult but a necessity). If you have an urge and break your cut to have consecutive cheat days a good way to remedy this is to add in 20 minutes of HIIT. It is something that I find effective on a cut because in that 20 minutes I can burn almost 400 cals.

235orbust
04-17-2006, 01:38 PM
a composition monitor can tell you your water weight percentage

MJS
04-17-2006, 01:46 PM
Also reading the PSMF article on WBB, true weight loss is said to be only 4-7 pounds even though the scale will read 10-20 pounds lighter; due to water.

Jordanbcool
04-17-2006, 03:10 PM
Bottom line is that cutting does require a lot of dedictation (which you should have) and discipline (difficult but a necessity). If you have an urge and break your cut to have consecutive cheat days a good way to remedy this is to add in 20 minutes of HIIT. It is something that I find effective on a cut because in that 20 minutes I can burn almost 400 cals.

I do have dedication but not enough discipline. However to fix that im going to do two major things.

1) Pre-do my fitdays. Each morning when I wake up im going to look around my kitchen and see what I have to work with. Then im going to take each food item I choose. Plug it in to fitday and see how it looks. If it looks good, then thats what im eating that day. Its much easier for me this way then it is to fitday everything at the end of the day. I got the idea from built.
2) Print out a list of goals in bold 36 font on microsoft word. Frame it, and hang it in my room in an easy to read location. Also carrying one around in my wallet would be a good idea to. This way I can see what I want to get out of my hard work, and it will motivate me to do well. On the same page A small picture of a motivational bodybuilder. Nothing fancy or specific. Arnold, ronnie, jay. Anyone of those would motivate me big time to see them everyday.

That takes care of those problems. But the whole purpose of this thread was to put more scrutiny/speculation on the PSMF diet as a whole. No offense but im waiting for a response from another person not just you.....Its something I've been thinking alot about latley. Like how low is to low. What could happen if I dropped my calories to about 1500 (half of my maintinence) but still got enough protein and kept my workouts strong. Questions about carbs and the fats debate arise. Which should I concern myself with taking off....Until I get more people to respond to this i'll keep asking questions.

-jordan

HILL
04-17-2006, 03:17 PM
strength - i agree with what your saying but i think that if you did cut for 2 months or longer (which it doesnt look like ure going to do) that when you hit a plateau even changing the rep/set range may not work as your body hasnt got the energy or cals to be creating muscle or helping you muscles repair fully to increase strength or the excess cals for energy however i controled research of this would be interesting. The only proof of this is that from reading peoples journals and from my own current 6/7 month in cut some things i have increased strength on some ive stayed their but as i am training and cutting to loose fat my strength is not so important. this will obviously vary from individual to individual.

carbs - you are right however i think it would be best to have the recomended amounts for each as again a cut is to loose body fat and keep muscle why waste muscle or risk loosing lbm just to have more energy for strength. If strength were that important you really wouldnt be cutting to such an extreme or low bodyfat as a slower cut will help keep strength up.

water weight - this is confusing as i loose the weight i gain to a point i can watch it daily. i am 14 stone 7 2night (203 pound) and i will be 14 stone 1 or under(197 pound) in the morning. so im not sure about this.

also regarding your prefernce on short cuts i see nothing wrong with this. I would however suggest maybe a 3 week psmf then 3 weeks at maintanance then another 3 weeks psmf just to see were this got you i would be interested and glad if you kept a journal for this to see how it spands out next to my long slow cut(i have used a low dose of AAS so it obviously wont be exact but the basis is their)

Jordanbcool
04-17-2006, 03:32 PM
strength - i agree with what your saying but i think that if you did cut for 2 months or longer (which it doesnt look like ure going to do) that when you hit a plateau even changing the rep/set range may not work as your body hasnt got the energy or cals to be creating muscle or helping you muscles repair fully to increase strength or the excess cals for energy however i controled research of this would be interesting. The only proof of this is that from reading peoples journals and from my own current 6/7 month in cut some things i have increased strength on some ive stayed their but as i am training and cutting to loose fat my strength is not so important. this will obviously vary from individual to individual.

carbs - you are right however i think it would be best to have the recomended amounts for each as again a cut is to loose body fat and keep muscle why waste muscle or risk loosing lbm just to have more energy for strength. If strength were that important you really wouldnt be cutting to such an extreme or low bodyfat as a slower cut will help keep strength up.

water weight - this is confusing as i loose the weight i gain to a point i can watch it daily. i am 14 stone 7 2night (203 pound) and i will be 14 stone 1 or under(197 pound) in the morning. so im not sure about this.

also regarding your prefernce on short cuts i see nothing wrong with this. I would however suggest maybe a 3 week psmf then 3 weeks at maintanance then another 3 weeks psmf just to see were this got you i would be interested and glad if you kept a journal for this to see how it spands out next to my long slow cut(i have used a low dose of AAS so it obviously wont be exact but the basis is their)


Really good points so far. However my projected cut time was 10 weeks. This leaves me plenty of time to fart around with things to see what works. Let me outline so far....

First week- Maintanence cals of 3300.

HIIT/Lifting days- 2700 calories
SS/Rest days- 2500 calories

Weight lose at the end of the week- 1 lbs

Second week

Same calories consumed as listed above. However I threw in an extra day of HIIT.

Weight lose at the end of the week- 3lbs

Scared the crap out of me so I upped my calories (regret that) to 2800 on lift days/HIIT and 2600 on SS days/rest days

Third week

Calories was as listed above. However one day I had 3000 calories and another day I had 3500 calories. Every other day was perfect

Weight lose of -1lb. Yes that means I gained weight.

Fourth week

Easter week. Dropped down to original calories. However a friend came back from the army for a little while. Combined that with easter I really didnt diet at all this week except for 4 days...

Weight lose of -3lbs.

So now Im back where I started. I know Its mostly water weight but I am glad that I left myself enough time to play around with everything. I just need more disipline as stated above in an earlier post.

Fifth week (what im doing now)

HIIT/lifting days- 2500 calories.
SS/Rest days- 2300 calories.

Projected weight lose- 4 lbs. Bye bye water weight, and a pound of fat. Also my macros since I'm pre-doing my fitdays are always PERFECT. I stress this. Other weeks it wasent the case. This is why im not concerned with muscle loss. I just made this thread to see if I could expirement even more and drop down to 1500 for the already stated reasons...

-jordan

brickt.
04-17-2006, 04:07 PM
Strength
It's very possible to gain strength on a cut. Most strength gains are due to neural adaptation. Many, many powerlifters get stronger whilst dieting.
I'd keep reps at 4-6 for compounds for best results while dieting.

Carbs
Fat is more important to keep things running smoothly behind the scenes, which you'll need if you want to hold onto muscle. However, dude, if you've got your necessary proteins and fats, and want carbs, chuck them in, just know they have cals.

H20 Weight
..is a ****ing bitch. I'm a waterlogged cow one day, and dry as bone the next. Really ****s with my scale weight. OUT YOU GO SCALE!

Cals
Do a search on the hormone leptin. The reason you can't just drop your cals to a massively low number and get good results is due to that nasty hormone. I don't have the brains to explain it, maybe someone smart will chime in on it.

Eszekial
04-17-2006, 04:39 PM
1) I've gained str on my cut. Added probably 20 lbs to my bench. I've been cutting for 2 months and 3 days.

I attribute this to nervous system improvement, as well as increased form and an adaptation of % of muscle fibers being used in the lift.

2) For carbs, i just don't know enough about it. I just listen to built :D

3) For water weight, i've been steady with the amount of water and at what time of day as well. Also i get about the same amount of sodium per day. I'm probably peeing 10 times a day. Urine is clear or near clear depending on when and how many multis, etc, that i've had recently.

4) Does anybody know how you can determine whether or not your metab has crashed?

Built
04-17-2006, 06:02 PM
1) I got my heaviest squat to date last cut: 185, for 3 reps.

2) Some folks do better on higher carbs, some on lower. Go by feel, just make sure you don't drop your average fats too far below a half a gram per pound LBM.

3) You're a guy. You don't know SH!T about water weight. <shakes fist, curses the crimson bitch>. I still weigh first thing in the AM empty every morning on a cut. I need to know what kind of fluctuations are normal. I go by the lowest number I see on the scale - if I see it, it happened.

4) I'm not a super-low-calorie kinda gal. Been there, done that, got the thyroid suppression. There ARE safe ways to do it. I'm just not interested.

Jordanbcool
04-17-2006, 07:33 PM
Ok so it seems there are two genral points that everyone seems to agree on.

1) Water weight sucks.
2) You can gain strength on a cut if done right

Now I totally forgot about the half a gram thing. Hmm I guess that helps alot. No wonder everyone drops cals from carbs..

Now i've heard about leptin before....Not exactly sure though so Im going to look it up. But im surprised no one had more to say on going super low calories; although not low enough to be called a PSMF. The only problem I can think of that will happen is that I wont gain any muscle because my calories will be to low. If no one can come up with a better reason im seriously thinking about trying it out....

-jordan

P.S. About the whole metabolism thing. I think i'd throw in a random day of 2000 calories or something like that. Still very low but higher then normal so I keep my metabolism somewhat elevated.

smalls
04-17-2006, 08:05 PM
From personal experience gaining strength on a cut gets a lot harder the stronger you get and is very individual. I gained strength on my first cut ever. Now a days I am doing extremely well if I only lose small amounts of strength on a cut.

And jordan, from what I've read and understand, slightly increasing your cals for one day really aint gonna do **** from a leptin/metabolism standpoint. Why do you think carb ups are so insane. They need to be to have the desired effect, your basically tricking your body, which doesnt happen easily in one day.

Other than that I think built pretty much summed it up.

Jordanbcool
04-17-2006, 08:35 PM
From personal experience gaining strength on a cut gets a lot harder the stronger you get and is very individual. I gained strength on my first cut ever. Now a days I am doing extremely well if I only lose small amounts of strength on a cut.

And jordan, from what I've read and understand, slightly increasing your cals for one day really aint gonna do **** from a leptin/metabolism standpoint. Why do you think carb ups are so insane. They need to be to have the desired effect, your basically tricking your body, which doesnt happen easily in one day.

Other than that I think built pretty much summed it up.

So if i go on an extended super low calorie restricted diet. Even though my LBM wont really suffer my fat burning will because my metabolism will slow to a crawl...But in theory couldnt I just add 4 days of controlled structered cheating. Lets say I cut with 1700 calories on HIIT/Lift days and cut 1500 on SS/rest days. After 10 days of that I have 4 days of 2000 calories (regardless of what the day is). Then afterwards I drop down to what I was already doing....I've read it takes about 4 days for your metabolism to really speed up/slow down. This wouldnt keep my metabolism super high those 10 days but it would help to keep it elevated...

Thoughts?

-jordan

Built
04-17-2006, 08:52 PM
My thinking goes like this: Lyle McD wrote books on this topic. Read them, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel using leggo.

ddegroff
04-17-2006, 09:54 PM
Strength-ON the first part of my cut I was gaining strength. Then I had to drop the cals again. Since i've been losing some strength on some lifts. But I agree that with correct meal timing and such it is possible to gain strength on a cut.

Water Weight: It sucks, whatever, just weigh yourself same time and keep all the variables the same. I agree with Built, whatever the low number is go with it.

Carbs: Very vital for the body, fats are just as good, and so is protein. However, I feel that carb cycling correctly can be very beneficial on a cut. Also after doing a research paper on "low carbohydrate" diets, the body is very good at adapting to whatever you throw at it. Also after reading Atkins book, it appears that CHO's are just as individual as anything else. Some need more some need less. To be successful on a cut one needs to find their number.

Calories-These are completely individual and depend on so many factors. Ive never done PSMF or read the book so i'm not going to comment on it. However I feel a correctly planned diet is just as effected as any (strict macro's ect.).

ShadyRensch
04-17-2006, 10:50 PM
I can say that I tried cutting on 1800 calories the first month or so of my cut way back when, and I lost a bunch of muscle. Granted I probably wasn't getting the right macros with protein/carb/fats, but I still think 1800 is too low. People would tell me I looked way too skinny, and things like that. Personally I think you'd probably be better sticking to a regular cut, not extreme low calorie, but I did think like you as well.

smalls
04-18-2006, 12:24 AM
So if i go on an extended super low calorie restricted diet. Even though my LBM wont really suffer my fat burning will because my metabolism will slow to a crawl...But in theory couldnt I just add 4 days of controlled structered cheating. Lets say I cut with 1700 calories on HIIT/Lift days and cut 1500 on SS/rest days. After 10 days of that I have 4 days of 2000 calories (regardless of what the day is). Then afterwards I drop down to what I was already doing....I've read it takes about 4 days for your metabolism to really speed up/slow down. This wouldnt keep my metabolism super high those 10 days but it would help to keep it elevated...

Thoughts?

-jordan


The thing is, LBM will take a hit. Muscle is not a very necassary tissue and it's expensive, calorically, for the body. So why would you want to keep it when dieting. Heavy lifting can only do so much. You WILL lose muscle on a cut, the harsher and longer the cut the more muscle you will lose.

Start talking about 4000+ calorie cheat days as a minimum and your getting closer. But I agree with built, as always.

MJS
04-18-2006, 04:23 AM
My thinking goes like this: Lyle McD wrote books on this topic. Read them, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel using leggo.

leggo = lego. What's this? I caught MariAnne in a slip up? Must have just been a typo from the caffeine pills. I'll let it slide.

Jordanbcool
04-18-2006, 05:45 AM
The thing is, LBM will take a hit. Muscle is not a very necassary tissue and it's expensive, calorically, for the body. So why would you want to keep it when dieting. Heavy lifting can only do so much. You WILL lose muscle on a cut, the harsher and longer the cut the more muscle you will lose.

Start talking about 4000+ calorie cheat days as a minimum and your getting closer. But I agree with built, as always.

Good points both you and the poster above you..

-jordan

ArchAngel777
04-18-2006, 10:37 AM
A few things I wanted to take note of... First of all the 20% rule. Cutting calories by no more than 20%. That was invented by Berardi, IRRC. The problem with this, is that... I mean, first of all, it seems like a magic number thrown out. Second, the USDA label on foods can vary as much as 20% and still be within the guidelines. They are allowed to have that much varience. Theoreticly, if you were to reduce calories by 20%, it is possible to have a further 20% reduction just from the varience in the foods themselves. This would work out some days to somewhere around a 40% reduction in calories some days, while other days you would be hitting maintenance... Well, lets just say I am not a believer in the firm 20% rule. I think so long as you are getting your properly nutrients, you can go low. Of course, I am not talking about 400 calories here. I am saying that many of us, provided we get the right amount of nutrients could probably thrive around 1,700 - 2,000 calories a good portion of the week.

All I am say is that personally, LBM doesn't seem to be an issue for really fat people. Once you start getting leaner (sub 15%), then you need to be more careful about your diet. You cannot be reckless in my opinion once you are into the lean territory.

Just my opinion... I certainly wouldn't worry about it. Jeremy Likness @ http://www.goldensummitinc.com/weight-loss-vault/ has documented three main weight cut diets. One of them Vegan, One just done with Calories and one done BodyBuilding style. Some great information to derive your opinions from. An actual log. :D

Built
04-18-2006, 01:10 PM
leggo = lego. What's this? I caught MariAnne in a slip up? Must have just been a typo from the caffeine pills. I'll let it slide.

<hangs head in shame>



Interesting post, Arch - reading...

djreef
04-18-2006, 01:36 PM
Here you go JB -

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/mindandmuscle/magpage.php?issueID=3&artID=99951

It's a five or six parter, so you're going to have to back track through the sites contents page for the rest. Pretty good read.

DJ