All this crap about NO2... isn't it NO?

[Canadian Crippler]

Isn't it Nitric Oxide, NO

NO2 is poisonous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_dioxide

[crunkdizzle]

its not the same.. when you lift and you get a pump its from your body naturally producing nitric oxide, the supplement is pretty much only to put more of it in your body to produce a bigger pump

[Wild Cat McCane]

It is bad in the free radical sense.

Most supplements are loaded with vitamin c and b for this reason...

But are not suppose to use l-arginine, AAKG, NO, for more then 60 days straight.

[Canadian Crippler]

So is it actually NO2 in it + other substances to neutralize it, or is it NO?

[Canadian Crippler]

its not the same.. when you lift and you get a pump its from your body naturally producing nitric oxide, the supplement is pretty much only to put more of it in your body to produce a bigger pumpI realize this, which is why it makes no sense that it's called NO2. You don't product NO2, you produce NO.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=NO2

[Canadian Crippler]

Thank you for contributing nothing to this thread.

Anyone?

[Shark]

Pretty sure its NO but I have not read anything on it lately. When it first came out it was just l-arginine and a bit of other junk.

[Built]

From various sources …

Nitric oxide is a major endogenous regulator of vascular tone. It reacts with oxygen to form nitrogen dioxide, NO2.

Both NO and NO2 are toxic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_oxide

"It is believed that its dialation of the blood vessels (vasodilation) increases blood flow to the muscles, which in turn leads to increased strength, endurance and muscle size. As it is a fairly new product on the market, there is as of yet little research to conclusivley prove or disprove these claims. Nitric oxide supplements do not actually contain nitric oxide, but rather arginine and other precursors such as citrulline, Pycnogenol, L-aspartic acid, and ginsenosides which the body synthesizes into nitric oxide."

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

Thank you for contributing nothing to this thread.Was it as useful as your comment about how water should be called waterated?


Nitric oxide supplements do not actually contain nitric oxide, but rather arginine and other precursors such as citrulline, Pycnogenol, L-aspartic acid, and ginsenosides which the body synthesizes into nitric oxide.Yeah...it's the reaction within the body that these supplements get their name.

[Slim Schaedle]

But are not suppose to use l-arginine, AAKG, NO, for more then 60 days straight.
Explain


(and, you don't use NO (nitric oxide) )

[Slim Schaedle]

Isn't it Nitric Oxide, NO

NO2 is poisonous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_dioxide
NO2 is simply a name.

Just like NOX3, etc etc.

It's not the abbreviation or chemical name for what it really is.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

Explain:withstupi

Especially with arginine. Does that mean you should stop eating meat after 60 days?

[Wild Cat McCane]

NOW is the only one with the patented AAKG. On their site and labels it reads (not directly quoted) 'don't use for over 60 days'

After wondering why the hell they would say that and not explain I found that AAKG, l-arginine, and other NO products (products that use these ingredients or the pump effect) increase free radicals in the body.

Look under....god damnit...whatever the cheap version of NO-Explode....it was in a few posts back.....

anyways, this label says on its product, the use of these ingredients are harmful, yet they load their product up with all sorts of antioxidants to negate these problems.

Did I get it all? I think that pretty much covers it....I don't know, I still use l-arganine, but I think I slowed it down a lot when i found out all that.

[Wild Cat McCane]

Universal shock therapy is the product I was thinking of.

[Slim Schaedle]

NOW is the only one with the patented AAKG. On their site and labels it reads (not directly quoted) 'don't use for over 60 days'

After wondering why the hell they would say that and not explain I found that AAKG, l-arginine, and other NO products (products that use these ingredients or the pump effect) increase free radicals in the body.

Look under....god damnit...whatever the cheap version of NO-Explode....it was in a few posts back.....

anyways, this label says on its product, the use of these ingredients are harmful, yet they load their product up with all sorts of antioxidants to negate these problems.

Did I get it all? I think that pretty much covers it....I don't know, I still use l-arganine, but I think I slowed it down a lot when i found out all that.
For future reference, when posting something such as you did, provide a citation where you heard/read it.

Otherwise, we tend to call people out.

That still doesn't tell us why use should be ceased, but since you only read it, I guess you don't really know.

[Wild Cat McCane]

Universal shock therapy....on the product it says so? seems like a good reason right there :scratch:

Go to NOW, find their bulk powder AAKG, read their label

Not saying it is poisen like the op, but it does seem that free radicals are increased while using the product.


But just to point out, not once has a real clynical research study been sighted when discussing creatine on this site.:)

[Built]

But just to point out, not once has a real clynical research study been sighted when discussing creatine on this site.:)

*cough* (http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showpost.php?p=1029771&postcount=8)

[Slim Schaedle]

Universal shock therapy....on the product it says so? seems like a good reason right there :scratch:

Go to NOW, find their bulk powder AAKG, read their label

Not saying it is poisen like the op, but it does seem that free radicals are increased while using the product.


But just to point out, not once has a real clynical research study been sighted when discussing creatine on this site.:)
The government also says to follow the food guide pyramid.




.

[Canadian Crippler]

Good info Built, I didn't take the time to read through it all at first :p

[Built]

As I enter my Alzheimers years, I'm grateful the stuff's good for brain function.

;)

[Slim Schaedle]

And the guys entering their ED years are just as happy.

[Built]

Hehehehehehehehe!

[Holto]

But just to point out, not once has a real clynical research study been sighted when discussing creatine on this site.:)

LMAO!!!!

I hope you're not paying too much for this University you allegedly attend.

What are your criteria for real clynical research?

.

[Canadian Crippler]

What are your criteria for real clynical research?

.It doesn't matter, just don't forget to SIGHT it!!!

[Wild Cat McCane]

Unvisersal shock therapy "we include an antioxidant complex that is essential when taking nitric oxide stimulating ingredients, due to their oxidative nature on human cells. Now you can have the "perpetual pump," the intense workout you crave, and keep your body safe from the free radicals that are produced as a side effect of the nitric oxide activation process."

I am not even supporting UST, i am just pointing out, cuase it doesn't say that on NO-explode.

MAIN POINT: (what you have completely over looked...you just trying to start a fight?)
you are right, not everything on a supp bottle is correct. But since NOW says that AAKG products are not safe for extended periods (they are the ones who have the rights to product AAKG, the main ingredient in nearly all NO products)....I think I don't really need to sight their research that they already tell you they have done. And then later put warnings on their bottles, even though it is not regulated by the FDA...seems like they are aware of some side effects to me :scratch:

[Wild Cat McCane]

oh, I noticed that I spelled cause cuase. My points are disproven.

[Canadian Crippler]

They are disproven, but that's not why. If you read my post, you'd see I also made fun of you for mixing up the word "cite" with "sight". Twice.

[Wild Cat McCane]

so you think NO isn't bad for you (the ingredients that is)

[Canadian Crippler]

The reason they have warning labels on most supplements is because there will always be some dude who takes 1/2 the bottle at once and gets very sick. They're protecting their ass, that's all. You can **** yourself up really bad on Tylenol. There are warning labels on Tylenol. Is it unsafe?

[Slim Schaedle]

****in dumbass, you even look at what I wrote?

Unvisersal shock therapy "we include an antioxidant complex that is essential when taking nitric oxide stimulating ingredients, due to their oxidative nature on human cells. Now you can have the "perpetual pump," the intense workout you crave, and keep your body safe from the free radicals that are produced as a side effect of the nitric oxide activation process."

I am not even supporting UST, i am just pointing out, cuase it doesn't say that on NO-explode.

MAIN POINT: (what you have completely over looked...you just trying to start a fight?)
you are right, not everything on a supp bottle is correct. But since NOW says that AAKG products are not safe for extended periods (they are the ones who have the rights to product AAKG, the main ingredient in nearly all NO products)....I think I don't really need to sight their research that they already tell you they have done. And then later put warnings on their bottles, even though it is not regulated by the FDA...seems like they are aware of some side effects to me :scratch:
Are you calling me a ****ing dumbass?

[Wild Cat McCane]

http://www.bodybuilding-supplement-guide.com/l-arginine.html

"In initial research, high intake (30/day) has increased cancer cell growth in humans."


http://www.1fast400.com/p1000_AAKG_Now_Foods.html

"Suggested Use:
As a dietary supplement, take 3 tablets 2 times daily on an empty stomach, preferably in the morning and one hour before workouts. Not recommended for continuous, high-level use for more than 60 days."

Universal Shock Therapy:

"Antioxidant Complex

It has a healthier formula. Since Shock Therapy helps your body produce more nitric oxide, you need an anti-oxidant complex to scavenge the harmful free radicals that are released as a result of the nitric oxide process. Our competitors aren't keeping your health in mind; we are.

Unlike any other pre-workout NO product on the market, we are one of the first to add in vitally important antioxidants. Nitric oxide is an essential molecule in the body. However, a side effect of nitric oxide supplementation is the potential production of free radicals. Free radicals are molecules that can damage your cells. However, there is a way to combat those free radicals so you are able to elicit the benefits of nitric oxide without the harmful side effects.

The Antioxidant Complex in Shock Therapy™ is a blend of select, potent antioxidants including green tea extract, R-ALA, NAC and grapeseed extract. This powerful blend was specifically designed to help neutralize harmful free radicals that are a by-product of NO. In short, the Antioxidant Complex allows you gain the positive benefits of increased NO levels without hindering your gains or jeopardizing your overall health--this is the "therapy" component of Shock Therapy™ and you won't find it anywhere else."

[Slim Schaedle]

so you think NO isn't bad for you (the ingredients that is)
NO is not an ingredient.

[Wild Cat McCane]

"so you think NO isn't bad for you (the ingredients that is)"

Sounds like I was saying the ingredients in NO products doesn't it?

Make your point, do you disagree or not?

[Slim Schaedle]

"so you think NO isn't bad for you (the ingredients that is)"

Sounds like I was saying the ingredients in NO products doesn't it?

Make your point, do you disagree or not?
ummmmm, I don't even have a major part in this thread, but anyway...

My initial point was that I hoped you would explain why arginine and other substances contributing to the production of nitric oxide should not be taken for more than 60 days.

You simply pointed me to a supplement bottle instruction which doesn't tell me, or the WBB anything.

I responded with a joke about the gov. and the food guide pyramid ( I thought it was funny, btw)

You posted two links that coincide with advertisements. (bad idea, btw)

One of those links says HIGH LEVELS should not be taken long term (60 days)

One link cites 30 grams as being high level. That is a butt load and you would be depleting your supply of pills very fast. My point.... no one takes that much if they are following the directions.

So, your initial post about NO supps not being used for more than 60 days is incorrect because of the reasons I mentioned above.

Picky? yes.

But that is how we do it at WBB and that's how everyone learns. Also, a real study would help your point immensly.


Also, were you caling me a ****ing dumbass?

[Slim Schaedle]

NOW is the only one with the patented AAKG.

Arginine Alphaketoglutarate is not patented.

[Wild Cat McCane]

ok good points. A clinical research study isn't needed in my opinion, and from what i have read, since it was only discovered in the 80's, there isn't much out there

But research AAKG, AKG isn't patented, but AAKG is. Most large companies (BNS) use the AAKG, smaller use the unprotected AKG. Look it up. i suggest going to NOW's page.

The site that i gave that says do not use for over 60 days, on that product (the only AAKG bulk powder product out there) also has that as a label on their prodoct. I am looking at it right now. I bought AAKG because someone suggested it on this site.

[Slim Schaedle]

ok good points. A clinical research study isn't needed in my opinion, and from what i have read, since it was only discovered in the 80's, there isn't much out there

But research AAKG, AKG isn't patented, but AAKG is. Most large companies (BNS) use the AAKG, smaller use the unprotected AKG. Look it up. i suggest going to NOW's page.

The site that i gave that says do not use for over 60 days, on that product (the only AAKG bulk powder product out there) also has that as a label on their prodoct. I am looking at it right now. I bought AAKG because someone suggested it on this site.
I can dig up a list of companies and labs that will manufacture AAKG and deliver it to me in bulk if I decided to do business with them.

You are telling my that NOW has it patented and all these companies are shuttling some dough over to NOW?

Do you even know what AAKG and AKG are?

Or the difference?

[smalls]

Wild Cat, you dont happen to be related to scarecrow do you?


And you do realize that EXERCISE increases free radicals right?

So according to your spoon fed, accept everything you read approach we shouldnt exercise for more than the magic 60 days either right, maybe a two month on two month off approach would be best.

Also I really hope your banned for disrespecting Slim. Where have the mods been lately, newbies slinging personal insults like it's junior ****in high.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

There are warning labels on Tylenol. Is it unsafe?If you take too much, yes. ;)


It doesn't matter, just don't forget to SIGHT it!!!The word is "cited".

[Davidelmo]

http://www.bodybuilding-supplement-guide.com/l-arginine.html

"In initial research, high intake (30/day) has increased cancer cell growth in humans."


http://www.1fast400.com/p1000_AAKG_Now_Foods.html



Nice scientific references

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

Nice scientific referencesLOL. :thumbup:

[Davidelmo]

The word is "cited".

No, it's "sighted".. because you have to SEE it to read it, am i rite?!1 lol!1

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

No you're not. To cite something is to quote something or someone. Look it up.

Edit: I'll do it for you: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cited

You know...like in school you have to do a "works cited" page. Yeah...

[Wild Cat McCane]

Thank you, you guys have confinced me. The warning label on my NOW bulk AAKG is a stupid waste.

Thank you to those who have pointed out other companies, and their products, thank you. clearly AAKG should be taken for more then 60 days, and NO ingredients clearly do not increase free radicals.

And free radicals are nothing to worry about, heck you even get them from working out.

Thank you thank you!

:rolleyes:
supplement forum or tool shed. you decide.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

Putting words in people's mouths?

[Wild Cat McCane]

There is evidence of l-arginine being harmful, I so far have been the only one digging.

no. actually in this debate, no one as gone out and searched the original posters question. I did, and I have been called stupid because AAKG, produced by NOW has a warning label. It was pointed out all warning labels are crap on other products....thanks but no thanks.

Next, wise ass mcgoo says free radicals in NO ingredients psst! who cares about those you get them by working out....Yeah dumbass, but i don't want to purposefully eat a causer cancer do I?


So far I have only been blasted. Clearly there is evidence, producers are warning about the ingredients. I just have not found the case study. Big fuggin deal. Who has ever quoted a case study on the 1 million threads about creatine? Maybe just maybe, because every single one says there isn't a long term study on its effects?

So instead, lets work together, find the study, answer the question, and we all learn.

Don't tell me to cite something if you are going to sit on your ass and pick misspellings out on an internet forum, what the **** do I care about that or my diction.

[Wild Cat McCane]

Could it be that BNS (no-explode maker) is the spoon feeder?

They never mention free radical worries in their products, so these people judging me are blindly believing l-arginine has not one possible side effect?

[Davidelmo]

No you're not. To cite something is to quote something or someone. Look it up.

Edit: I'll do it for you: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cited

You know...like in school you have to do a "works cited" page. Yeah...

I thought the sarcasm in my post was obvious :thumbup:

Sorry :redface:

[Slim Schaedle]

Could it be that BNS (no-explode maker) is the spoon feeder?

They never mention free radical worries in their products, so these people judging me are blindly believing l-arginine has not one possible side effect?
You mean BSN?

Sorry I had to.

Sorry you feel the way you do. The rest of us will now continue our daily lives of getting huge and ripped.

(PS: you are the one that posted the claim about dangers, so yes, it is your job to provide evidence.)

We will continue to sit on our behinds and grow. Typing wastes too much ATP as it is.

[djreef]

Wildcat -

in all the years I've been posting/lurking on this board the one thing that I have learned during that time is that you never win an argument with Slim. Way too much intellectual ammo.

DJ

[DGabe24]

Lets start a Slim ownage list.

1.) Scarecrow (although he has appeared to finally see the light)
2.) Wild Cat McCane (appears hopeless at this point)

Many more to come at this rate, but it's cool with me because each time Slim burns that ATP typing I learn from the "troll feed" wewt1!111!oneone

[Canadian Crippler]

The word is "cited".If it wasn't obvious enough initially, and if you after that still missed where I explained, I was making fun of the fact that he said something along the lines of "You need to sight clynical research".

[Slim Schaedle]

haha

Thanks brotha's

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

If it wasn't obvious enough initially, and if you after that still missed where I explained, I was making fun of the fact that he said something along the lines of "You need to sight clynical research".Oh...lol! Also...I prefer "clinical" research over "clynical" research. ;)

And uh...for the rest of you, my sarcasm detector is broken today.

[Adam]

Anymore BS and this thread shuts down.
But, keep the debate going.(Nicely)

[smalls]

I'm confused as to the rules of this site. This guy has personally insulted at least 3-4 people in this thread alone, and spewed gargabe clear across the room on a topic he clearly doesnt understand. I've been warned through PM and threatened with banning for insulting one person once. Have the rules changed?

Where is Hatred?


And to wild cat, free radicals dont CAUSE cancer. They cause oxididative damage to DNA which has been LINKED to the possible growth of Cancer. Since you used the phrase cancer causer.

[CrazyK]

I'm confused as to the rules of this site. This guy has personally insulted at least 3-4 people in this thread alone, and spewed gargabe clear across the room on a topic he clearly doesnt understand. I've been warned through PM and threatened with banning for insulting one person once. Have the rules changed?

Where is Hatred?


And to wild cat, free radicals dont CAUSE cancer. They cause oxididative damage to DNA which has been LINKED to the possible growth of Cancer. Since you used the phrase cancer causer.:cry:

[Holto]

Lets start a Slim ownage list.

1.) Scarecrow (although he has appeared to finally see the light)
2.) Wild Cat McCane (appears hopeless at this point)

Many more to come at this rate, but it's cool with me because each time Slim burns that ATP typing I learn from the "troll feed" wewt1!111!oneone

Ironically I find I learned some watching the latest fracas's.

The nice thing about Slim is he's humble and easy to get along with. I don't recall too many people actually arguing with him.

[djreef]

I think 'debate' would be a more accurate term.

DJ

[Slim Schaedle]

Lets start a Slim ownage list.

1.) Scarecrow (although he has appeared to finally see the light)
2.) Wild Cat McCane (appears hopeless at this point)

Many more to come at this rate, but it's cool with me because each time Slim burns that ATP typing I learn from the "troll feed" wewt1!111!oneone
I like to think of all this as a team effort.

[Holto]

I like to think of all this as a team effort.

This is the best nucleus of vet posters we have had since the inception of At Large.

[Belial]

I always sight my clynical research.

The best way to avoid the whole NO/NO2 debate is to simply not buy the garbage in the first place. Saves a lot of trouble. NO precursors = still in their infancy = crap.

[Belial]

I'm confused as to the rules of this site. This guy has personally insulted at least 3-4 people in this thread alone, and spewed gargabe clear across the room on a topic he clearly doesnt understand. I've been warned through PM and threatened with banning for insulting one person once. Have the rules changed?

Where is Hatred?


And to wild cat, free radicals dont CAUSE cancer. They cause oxididative damage to DNA which has been LINKED to the possible growth of Cancer. Since you used the phrase cancer causer.

In this case, it's often more instructive to leave a thread open and allow said poster to be torn apart. In the process, the readers do often learn something about the topic at hand. His manner is abrasive, true, but the bad information is being dealt with appropriately.

[Belial]

By the way, Slim, I think we should get in an argument about something. I think it'd be fun.

[ddegroff]

And free radicals are nothing to worry about, heck you even get them from working out.



WOW, you need to read up. This is actually one of the few downsides to workingout. Look into antioxidants.

[djreef]

By the way, Slim, I think we should get in an argument about something. I think it'd be fun.

Yea, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen you lose one either. Oh man, this could be the battle of undefeateds. We could be walking into brand new territory here folks.

DJ

[Wild Cat McCane]

I am confused.

"WOW, you need to read up. This is actually one of the few downsides to workingout. Look into antioxidants."

Me- Yes, i was sarcastically pointing out that free radicals are bad. Just has I had posted earlier, but then someone said don't worry about them, you get them when you work out. I already said they were bad. And, no, I disagree that you should consume supplements that increase free radicals.

Me-cited a site that says l-arginine increase cancer cells. http://www.bodybuilding-supplement-guide.com/l-arginine.html
"In initial research, high intake (30/day) has increased cancer cell growth in humans."

"Giving out large amounts of arginine to animals has been found both to promote and to obstruct cancer growth"

I realize this isn't a good source, but on this site (wannabebigforums.com) Guggulsterones is said to be the underrated supplement. (http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=131)
Yet everything I can find says this is the worst supplement on body building. IT EATS MUSCLE!!!

"The primary side effect that the athlete should be worried about is the possibility of muscle catabolism. Increased thyroid levels may also increase mitochondrial uncoupling of muscle tissue and decrease insulin secretion and nitric oxide production. Although fat loss will still be the primary effect, a portion of the weight lost may be from muscle. Fortunately, you can avoid or at least highly limit the amount of catabolism caused by increased thyroid levels by increasing your testosterone levels, because testosterone blocks the pathway through which thyroid-induced protein uncoupling occurs (11)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12519877&dopt=Abstract

Yet no one has corrected this, and its on the main site of Wannabebig.
So maybe people could explain where I am wrong?

[Belial]

1) bodybuilding supplement guide dot com is NOT a reference. You cannot cite them because they have no original research and do not cite any of their statements. Ergo, they hold less water than a four year old girl on a long car ride.

2) All articles on WBB are considered the opinion of and the property of their respective writers, which is why these articles can be discussed individually, or preferably taken up with their individual authors.

3) How did you go from guggulsterones (claimed impact = normalizing thyroid function) to the statement that increasing T3/T4 levels can catabolize muscle (absolutely true), to linking to an article on the positive impact of testosterone on nitrogen balance? What does one have to do with the other? Break this down:

Guggulsterones are MARGINALLY effective at best. In fact, I'd argue completely ineffective based on the shoddy construction of every study I've read even remotely addressing their use, and the completely lousy interpretation of said studies. HOWEVER. If they WERE effective at increasing T3/T4 levels, the increase would be so marginal as to only slightly increase muscle catabolism, almost certainly not to any clinically significant level. HOWEVER. If guggulsterones were, say, several orders of magnitude more effective than even the most optimistic supplement guru (read: salesman) claims, then yes, you'd have to be careful when you take them. Yet nobody argues that even T3 can't have its place in a bodybuilder's supplement regimen, it just has limited applications and needs to be used with proper precautions.

4) I don't need a 4, it just makes the list look better.

So really, where were you going with that entire post?

[Slim Schaedle]

By the way, Slim, I think we should get in an argument about something. I think it'd be fun.
To be honest, I would probably get beat.

On the other hand, I would never debate something on here if I did not have a thorough understanding of it.

It would certainly depend on the topic though.

Also, put UC and Duke on a scale and then see which one weighs in heavier, haha

Unfortunately, half the stuff I discuss about nutrition on here is from reading further and more in depth than what is required to pass a course.


But, we will see if the right topic ever comes along.

[smalls]

I "In initial research, high intake (30/day) has increased cancer cell growth in humans."



Even though the study that this comes from is completely bunk (as has already been stated) I find it funny that you think that statement means something special. It gives no reference to INCREASED growth, or any indication of quantitive info.

You see, growing is what cancer cells DO, so saying supplement X caused cancer cell growth doesnt say anything. Regardless, the study isnt a study at all, it's an article. It's sad that you still dont understand that.

[Holto]

It's sad that you still dont understand that.

What is especially sad is this poster claims to attend a University.

He also diplayed a rare combination of ignorance and arrogance by claiming that proper clinical research has never been cited on this site.

Hey WILDCAT........:hello:

What is you criteria for proper clynical research?

Each time you dodge this question your credibility swirls further down the toilet.

.gurgle...gurgle...

[djreef]

Besides, who on earth could possibly stand taking 30 gms. I would think that the gastric trauma would preclude taking this stuff long term.

DJ

[Wild Cat McCane]

l-arginine is found in protein powder, food, other supps. and thenmost take 10 grams of it by themselves.
It would be easy to consume 20grams a day without trying. 30...quite possible

Plus these supps that we are looking at are loaded with it. That's their main reason.

No-explode, the pump effect is it's selling point is it not. It comes from AAKG, arginine.

[djreef]

I guess I wasn't clear. 30 grams in addition to what would be normally consumed through the diet. As 'in addition to'.

DJ

[Slim Schaedle]

l-arginine is found in protein powder, food, other supps. and thenmost take 10 grams of it by themselves.

Who does?

Do you realize how much that is?

[Wild Cat McCane]

I have 1 gram pills, says to take 2-3 for each meal daily....