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Jordanbcool
05-02-2006, 02:04 PM
Hello guys. Debated for a while if i should even post this thread but decided to do it anyways. If I have questions about something I tend to focus on it exclusivly until I get some answers.

As you all may know i've had alot of trouble with my cut in the first month. I've realized my error and corrected everything. My diet is ideal, cardio is moderate and my workouts are fantastic. Whos to blame though when all of that contributes to weight gain on the scale?

I wouldnt say its that im gaining or losing muscle. I weight lift hard but my calories are very low (-1000 below maintenance on rest days, -700 on lift days) so my muscle mass should be pretty much the same.

Fat? Have I gained fat? Doubt it. Im much more toned and my abs are more visible in the mirror.

Water? Possibly. But to what extent? My confusion has caused me to PM the guru of diets. Built. After asking her what could be the problem she said something about the "whoosh" theory.

Basically your body after dropping a considerable amount of water weight "freaks out" and becomes water retentive. Your body pretty much clings desperatly to as much water as possible. This would explain the weight gain even though everything else about my diet is in order.

The good news is apparently your fat loss is not affected by this or atleast not by alot. So while you may be losing fat you will not see any results for a few weeks. At which time you suddenly lose all the excess water weight over night.

A very interesting theory. It would explain why my stomach size is pretty much the same even though when I flex I can see my cuts ALOT better then before.

I might have made an error in what built was trying to tell me but I think I got to basic point across. Anyone with more expirence or thoughts about this odd theory could discuss it? Maybe its a bunch of crap??? Built said shes heard of it before so maybe not.

Any comments at all would be interesting.





Here's my conjecture - take it for what it's worth, my shattered youth mixed with alzheimers: you drop calories, your body freaks out and has an inflammation response. You hold water. You CLING to water. You bloat. Nothing changes, you gradually drop fat, but you don't notice it because you've been so damned bloated, sometimes for a week or more.

Then, suddenly, God smiles and you drop water. "Wow! I've lost like 4 pounds overnight!".

You just dropped cals again, correct? Give it time - and the "not lifting" part could literally mean your muscles are full of glycogen. Remember - sugar is bound up with water in glycogen - I think each molecule holds something like four molecules of water.

Start training again and expect another whoosh. Lemme know what happens over the coming week or two.

MariAnne

-jordan

Built
05-02-2006, 02:10 PM
Keep in mind that this thought is just a conjecture based on phenomena I've observed over the years. I'd love a more comprehensive treatment of this problem <summons people who actually study this stuff - smalls? Slim? ScarZ? … >

kad
05-02-2006, 02:17 PM
Interesting theory, I'd like to see more discussion on this as well.

Jordanbcool
05-02-2006, 02:49 PM
Indeed. I'm very excited at what this discussion could yeild. Maybe this is more common then anyone ever thought.

-jordan

Jorge Sanchez
05-02-2006, 04:58 PM
I can't give you answer as to why it happens but....

mirror>scale

Don't worry!

JustLost
05-02-2006, 05:09 PM
Indeed. I'm very excited at what this discussion could yeild. Maybe this is more common then anyone ever thought.

-jordan


It's pretty common; there's a long thread about it over on bodyrecomposition. To make it even stranger, some people find that they get the water-weight loss right after a refeed. I've had that happen -- weight stays stuck for a week or more, then I'll do a refeed, weight spikes about a pound, then goes down maybe four.

I'm not sure if there's any practical application to this, but knowing about helps in avoiding panic. ;)

Jordanbcool
05-02-2006, 06:26 PM
It's pretty common; there's a long thread about it over on bodyrecomposition. To make it even stranger, some people find that they get the water-weight loss right after a refeed. I've had that happen -- weight stays stuck for a week or more, then I'll do a refeed, weight spikes about a pound, then goes down maybe four.

I'm not sure if there's any practical application to this, but knowing about helps in avoiding panic. ;)

Why though? It makes logical sense for your body to consistantly drop water weight since my calories are so low. Water weight is easily gained and lost but not in this case. Its just odd to find out that your body will retain water but lose fat? Your body is designed to store fat. Why on earth would it keep all that extra water around?

-jordan

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-02-2006, 09:27 PM
Basically your body after dropping a considerable amount of water weight "freaks out" and becomes water retentive. Your body pretty much clings desperatly to as much water as possible. This would explain the weight gain even though everything else about my diet is in order.That would make sense. That sounds similar to the "famine" reaction to not eating.



The good news is apparently your fat loss is not affected by this or atleast not by alot. So while you may be losing fat you will not see any results for a few weeks. At which time you suddenly lose all the excess water weight over night.I have not researched this enough to draw any kind of conclusions from your theory.



Maybe its a bunch of crap???LOL! Nothing is out of the question. ;)

Your body wants to LIVE. When you're not eating and your body goes into "famine" mode, your metabolism slows down and it begins to store fat more than it normally would. Perhaps there is a similarity with water retention? Your body probably wants to keep as much water as possible. You'll notice this when you don't drink much, you'll be peeing less often. If you drink a lot, you'll be peeing quite frequently because your body is keeping an equilibrium inside itself. Meh...I'm tired.

ddegroff
05-02-2006, 10:32 PM
wow this theory is pretty interesting, never really seen anything like this though.

betastas
05-02-2006, 10:37 PM
I don't think it goes for everyone. Each time I cut my water weight drops at the start, and then I can chart a linear weight loss until I stop my cut. Minor fluctuations depending on food mass, but nothing dramatic. I drink a lot of water and keep a regular diet though, so I don't see why I would hold water. I know that other people I know will increase their water intake - which leads to the body releasing its water weight. Anyways, I don't experience it, but I am interested in what others have to say.

Built
05-02-2006, 11:00 PM
I drop water at the start, too, because I drop carbs.

But I get random (non-chick-hormone-related) bloat as my cut progresses from time to time just before I drop a few pounds.

Unreal
05-03-2006, 08:38 AM
I would say stop worrying so much and just stick to it. See where you are in a month. If you are down 2-4lbs, then good, if your still where you are when you started, then time to change stuff.

Holto
05-03-2006, 09:40 AM
The most important thing to note re: phenomena such as this is that it's temporary.

If you are cutting for 4 weeks and not losing weight, you're doing something wrong.

Water weight casues small temporary fluctuations.



I get random bloat as my cut progresses from time to time just before I drop a few pounds.

Ditto.

Jordanbcool
05-03-2006, 10:07 AM
Its just really interesting that your body trys to retain water.....its not like im dehydrated but the exact opposite. My body dosent get any calories from all that water so its just interesting that it dosent drop it.

I guess I was just hoping to see if someone had any research and/or studies they knew of that explained more about this and what to expect.

-jordan

Holto
05-03-2006, 10:52 AM
Its just really interesting that your body trys to retain water....

Over short periods like 72hrs sure, over 4 weeks, no.

I was trying to get in to edit:

This is why it's essential to test your bodyfat.

My scale weight is really consitent so I can go by weight but if it wasn't I would buy some calipers and get a friend or family member that I see often to help with testing.

As for some real science to contribute this is yet another issue that is primarily relevant only to harcore bb's.

Jordanbcool
05-03-2006, 11:07 AM
Over short periods like 72hrs sure, over 4 weeks, no.

I was trying to get in to edit:

This is why it's essential to test your bodyfat.

My scale weight is really consitent so I can go by weight but if it wasn't I would buy some calipers and get a friend or family member that I see often to help with testing.

As for some real science to contribute this is yet another issue that is primarily relevant only to harcore bb's.

But there has got to be some logical reason your body makes the decision to do this. Maybe it dosent think like we do, but it sends signals all the time to regulate test. production, metabolism etc.

The only reason I could think of is that a drop in calories usually means famine or hardship. My body must reason that since my calories are being lowered alot with food water must also be scarce (an example of this would be during the dry season in parts of africa along with food being scarce, (animal and plantlife) water is also scarce).

Maybe my body says "lets stock up on the water reserves so when things get alot worse he will have enough to hopefully survive".

Just a thought :D

-jordan

EDIT: Eventually the body will have no choice but to let all the water weight go but at the moment it wants to cling to its precious.

Holto
05-03-2006, 11:12 AM
But there has got to be some logical reason your body makes the decision to do this.

= Homeostasis

Your body doesn't want anything to change. It doesn't really want to gain muscle because it's active tissue to feed reducing the % chance of survival.

It doesn't like to lose bodyfat for the same reason.

Jordanbcool
05-03-2006, 11:17 AM
= Homeostasis

Your body doesn't want anything to change. It doesn't really want to gain muscle because it's active tissue to feed reducing the % chance of survival.

It doesn't like to lose bodyfat for the same reason.

O my cute little body "pats stomach"

Your feeble efforts to keep this stubborn fat are in vain!

Bwhahahahahahaha *evil snicker*

*reaches for cheesecake*

Eh, maybe my tastebuds will end up winning the day for my body :(

-jordan

EDIT: Not trying to waste peoples time by making this thread. My real fascination was that you are still losing fat but holding onto water. I always thought your body would try harder to keep fat and lose the water weight. I guess this just steems from the fact that water=no calories or energy.

Built
05-03-2006, 12:00 PM
Aldosterone and antidiuretic hormone are two hormones that govern fluid balance in your body.

When aldosterone is low, your body flushes out water and sodium. When aldosterone is high, it promotes the reuptake of water and sodium in the kidneys.

You suppress aldosterone by drinking tons of water and eating sodium (your body hears "Go ahead and piss it out - plenty more where that came from ...).

You elevate aldosterone by cutting water and sodium (your body hears "Oh-oh - better hold the water and stop peeing it out...). However, this response lags behind consumption behaviour, and is one of the tricks BB use before competition. Drink tons of water, eat tons of salt, piss and piss and piss, then turn off the faucet and hide the salt shaker - you'll keep pissing out the water until your body figures out what's going on.

Now, consider what happens when you diet: you eat less food, many of us eat less salt (not me!), hormones interact in the body ... it's madness, I tell you - MADNESS! It doesn't surprise me in the LEAST that water sticks around under these circumstances until your body figures out that it can safely pee again.

Jordanbcool
05-03-2006, 12:05 PM
Aldosterone and antidiuretic hormone are two hormones that govern fluid balance in your body.

When aldosterone is low, your body flushes out water and sodium. When aldosterone is high, it promotes the reuptake of water and sodium in the kidneys.

You suppress aldosterone by drinking tons of water and eating sodium (your body hears "Go ahead and piss it out - plenty more where that came from ...).

You elevate aldosterone by cutting water and sodium (your body hears "Oh-oh - better hold the water and stop peeing it out...). However, this response lags behind consumption behaviour, and is one of the tricks BB use before competition. Drink tons of water, eat tons of salt, piss and piss and piss, then turn off the faucet and hide the salt shaker - you'll keep pissing out the water until your body figures out what's going on.

Now, consider what happens when you diet: you eat less food, many of us eat less salt (not me!), hormones interact in the body ... it's madness, I tell you - MADNESS! It doesn't surprise me in the LEAST that water sticks around under these circumstances until your body figures out that it can safely pee again.

But I pee countless times a day! I just went 10 minutes ago and im halfway through a bottle of water and i know in another 10-15 i will have to go..

-jordan

EDIT: Just read everything over again. So your saying I should drink so much water/increase my uptake of salt....do that for a few days. Then stop and my body should just piss away that 3 lb gain???

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-03-2006, 12:20 PM
Maybe you sould just put down the crackpipe, Jordan. :thumbup: Just kidding.

Built
05-03-2006, 12:21 PM
Jordon, yes, that's basically the way you do it. And you don't have to stop salting food and stop drinking water - just cut them back.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-03-2006, 12:23 PM
^^

:withstupi

Jordanbcool
05-03-2006, 12:30 PM
I dont salt any of my food. The only spices I use is pepper and thats on my eggs. Other then that I dont get anymore salt unless its from the food im eating.

I do however drink a TON of water. Probably about a couple liters a day. Maybe even more. That may not be alot to some but its alot for me.

I'll try this all out. The last 3 days this week I'll REALLY cut back on the water.

Quick question. Wont I just keep storing water again once I start going back to drinking alot of it a day.....Making my cutback worthless/pointless.

-jordan

Or maybe I could "cycle" my water weight. Say...the last 3 days of the week cut back on it and countinue the cycle next week. This wouldnt really affect my fat loss but it would give me more motivation on the scale since my body seems to really have a problem with holding/losing alot of water.

Built
05-03-2006, 12:34 PM
I don't deliberately manipulate this unless it's for a photo shoot, Jordan. And I make sure to salt the hell out of my food when I'm cutting - pushes more water into the muscle cells, and makes food taste a LOT better!

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-03-2006, 12:44 PM
I dont salt any of my food. The only spices I use is pepper and thats on my eggs. Other then that I dont get anymore salt unless its from the food im eating.

I do however drink a TON of water. Probably about a couple liters a day. Maybe even more. That may not be alot to some but its alot for me.

I'll try this all out. The last 3 days this week I'll REALLY cut back on the water.

Quick question. Wont I just keep storing water again once I start going back to drinking alot of it a day.....Making my cutback worthless/pointless.

-jordan

Or maybe I could "cycle" my water weight. Say...the last 3 days of the week cut back on it and countinue the cycle next week. This wouldnt really affect my fat loss but it would give me more motivation on the scale since my body seems to really have a problem with holding/losing alot of water.Do you actually know how much sodium you're consuming?

Jordanbcool
05-03-2006, 01:14 PM
I don't deliberately manipulate this unless it's for a photo shoot, Jordan. And I make sure to salt the hell out of my food when I'm cutting - pushes more water into the muscle cells, and makes food taste a LOT better!

Now this is interesting. I've really noticed this in the morning/evening hours.

I wouldnt consider my biceps not to be huge or small. Just normal biceps. Nothing to really brag about, but something worth flexing if a lady comes by.

I always thought it was me, but I noticed in the mornings it is easier for me to reach my hand around my biceps then it is at night. Is this why??? I always thought it was creatine...which I often take at night post workout since i've been lifting at night lately.

As to scarz, I can give you my fitday link. Hold on.

http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=jordanbcool

-jordan

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-03-2006, 01:22 PM
As to scarz, I can give you my fitday link. Hold on.

http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJ...er=jordanbcoolEr...it doesn't say anything about sodium.

Jordanbcool
05-03-2006, 01:37 PM
Er...it doesn't say anything about sodium.

Well yea lol.....I just thought you could get a basic idea of how much. I just sent you the link to show that my salt intake isnt anything above normal. Or atleast I dont think it should...

-jordan

EDIT: Based on the foods I eat (keep in mind I dont add any extra salt so whatever is in the food is how much im taking)

Built
05-03-2006, 01:39 PM
Just salt your veggies and meat, Jordon.

Or do what we do in Canada and install a salt-lick in a high-traffic area in your home.

Built
05-03-2006, 01:39 PM
And by "home", I mean "igloo".

Bikkstah
05-03-2006, 01:42 PM
****, I salt the hell out of my chicken and tuna when I eat because I know I won't get enough otherwise.


Plus, you know, they taste like **** if you don't.

Holto
05-03-2006, 02:12 PM
My real fascination was that you are still losing fat but holding onto water.

If you're not losing weight you are not losing significant fat. I mean this re: you in particular Jordan as the subject and considering you an intermediate lifter.

A newbie can recompose but if after 4 weeks you are not down weight it's NOT WATER.

Sorry to be so repetitive bro but I don't think I've penetrated that massive cranium of yours yet.

.

Jordanbcool
05-03-2006, 02:48 PM
If you're not losing weight you are not losing significant fat. I mean this re: you in particular Jordan as the subject and considering you an intermediate lifter.

A newbie can recompose but if after 4 weeks you are not down weight it's NOT WATER.

Sorry to be so repetitive bro but I don't think I've penetrated that massive cranium of yours yet.

.

Mum said its cus im so darn smart.....

Also its not like i dont lose weight. I just lose and gain weight constantly.....all this damned water. Even when my diet and excersize is EXACTLY the same from week to week.

Manveet
05-03-2006, 09:44 PM
Discussed quite a bit over on lyle's board.

Here's a good thread:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10960

Jordanbcool
05-04-2006, 12:00 AM
Discussed quite a bit over on lyle's board.

Here's a good thread:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10960

Ehhh need to "log" in for it...

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-04-2006, 12:07 AM
Ehhh need to "log" in for it...Here's a zip file containing PDF versions of that thread: http://download.yousendit.com/0FD4472C6454A48B

It took me 30 seconds to register to that site...lazy. ;)

And as a warning, some people have nude chicks in their avatars...

Jordanbcool
05-04-2006, 12:12 AM
Here's a zip file containing PDF versions of that thread: http://download.yousendit.com/0FD4472C6454A48B

It took me 30 seconds to register to that site...lazy. ;)

And as a warning, some people have nude chicks in their avatars...

Fantastic thread. Thanks.

And yes. Yes I am lazy.:moon:

-jordan

Holto
05-04-2006, 09:25 AM
nude chicks in their avatars...

*Registers Immediatley*

Oddly I used to lurk on that site when you could just read stuff without being logged in.

At least now I have a concrete reason to do so.

Manveet
05-04-2006, 09:58 AM
Ehhh need to "log" in for it...

As others have mentioned, just register. The amount of information on that site is well worth it. Hell, sign up for Lyle's free newsletter, even more great information.

Holto
05-05-2006, 09:52 AM
Lyle truly is a generous man.

Of all the guru's so called he's the only one helping people out online.