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View Full Version : c,c,c: GOOD. Whey protein, fructose :EVIL!!!



WildCard
05-03-2006, 12:19 PM
yes, this is going to get controversial but understand that it is the opinion of one person, who has only been doing this for four months now.

GOOD
creatine: I started using this again last month. I can see bloat but it helps me feel every contraction and I feel it makes me lift a lot harder

Cottage cheese: a bunch of good protein, inexpensive, and very satiating. some good gains when I started using it

Chicken: WOW. I cant believe I was not doing this more. lots of protein, delicious, thighs are not too expensive and one feels like one is eating REAL food

between these three, my biceps grew almost half an inch last month (3/10 to 4/10)


EVIL

fructose: very delicious, but it was making me fat. I suspected this and looked it up and it is one of the worst things we can put in our body. Does nothing for muscle glycogen, does not spike insulin, goes out of liver as fat, easily stored as fat, increases percentage of bodyfat level etc BAD

Whey protein: I'll never use this again. EVER. whey is not only unsatisfying, it actually makes me hungry. in comparing how I feel/lift eating chicken and cheese to whey, I can honestly say that I strongly doubt the efficacy of whey. In my opinion, it is of little to no value.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-03-2006, 12:21 PM
fructose: very delicious, but it was making me fat.Excess calories makes you fat.

Built
05-03-2006, 12:23 PM
Hmmm... there was just a very interesting post made by Slim about fructose. In large quantities, it spills over from liver stores as I recall ... may not make you fat, but it might not do nice things to your lipid profile...

OP - I find whey makes me hungry, too. It's strictly a bulking food for me, or it has to be mixed in with other things.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-03-2006, 12:24 PM
Too much fructose in general sucks.

malkore
05-03-2006, 02:14 PM
since whey digests so fast, I stick to blends that contain casien or egg protein plus whey variations.

Also only use em when I have no time for whole food, or as my PWO shake.

Holto
05-03-2006, 02:14 PM
Hmmm... there was just a very interesting post made by Slim about fructose. In large quantities, it spills over from liver stores as I recall ... may not make you fat, but it might not do nice things to your lipid profile...

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

How so?

Built
05-03-2006, 07:06 PM
Cholesterol is made in the liver, if I'm not mistaken.

WildCard
05-03-2006, 09:12 PM
Excess calories makes you fat.

I used to have that simplistic view too. Then I was forced to educate myself when I realized I was eating the same number of calories (As per fitday) but getting fatter when I introduced a lot of fructose into my diet.

there is a lot to be said against fructose, but this in particular should tell you why it might not be excess calories that cause fat

Fructose: Stealth Fat Builder?
In the study, researchers compared the effects of feeding mice fructose-sweetened water, a soft drink sweetened with sucrose (table sugar), a diet soft drink, or water. The mice were allowed to drink as much as they wanted of their designated beverage.

The mice that drank the fructose-sweetened water gained significantly more body fat than the others, even though they decreased the amount of calories they ate from solid food.

"We were surprised to see that mice actually ate less when exposed to fructose-sweetened beverages, and therefore didn't consume more overall calories," says Tschöp. "Nevertheless, they gained significantly more body fat within a few weeks."

All of the mice weighed about 39 grams at the start of the study. Those that drank the fructose-sweetened water gained an average of 8 grams during the course of the study compared with average weight gains of less than 5 grams among the others.

The fructose-drinking mice also gained more body fat. Body fat increased by nearly 11% in the fructose group of mice -- significantly more than the 5% increase in the water group. Body fat increased by 7% to 8% in the soft drink and diet soft drink groups.

Researchers say the results suggest that the body metabolizes fructose differently than other sweeteners or carbohydrates and in a way that favors fat storage


http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/109/109250.htm

other links
http://www.mercola.com/2004/apr/10/corn_fat.htm

http://www.thenutritionreporter.com/fructose_dangers.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8003-2003Mar10?language=printer

ncsuLuke
05-03-2006, 09:44 PM
wow that is really interesting

i guess i wont be eating as much fruit as normal

WildCard
05-03-2006, 09:56 PM
wow that is really interesting

i guess i wont be eating as much fruit as normal

most of the sources say the eating fruit is ok, but here is an interesting bodybuilding perspective that "seems" to make sense.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa14.htm

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-03-2006, 10:12 PM
I used to have that simplistic view too. Then I was forced to educate myself when I realized I was eating the same number of calories (As per fitday) but getting fatter when I introduced a lot of fructose into my diet.

there is a lot to be said against fructose, but this in particular should tell you why it might not be excess calories that cause fat

Fructose: Stealth Fat Builder?
In the study, researchers compared the effects of feeding mice fructose-sweetened water, a soft drink sweetened with sucrose (table sugar), a diet soft drink, or water. The mice were allowed to drink as much as they wanted of their designated beverage.

The mice that drank the fructose-sweetened water gained significantly more body fat than the others, even though they decreased the amount of calories they ate from solid food.

"We were surprised to see that mice actually ate less when exposed to fructose-sweetened beverages, and therefore didn't consume more overall calories," says Tschöp. "Nevertheless, they gained significantly more body fat within a few weeks."

All of the mice weighed about 39 grams at the start of the study. Those that drank the fructose-sweetened water gained an average of 8 grams during the course of the study compared with average weight gains of less than 5 grams among the others.

The fructose-drinking mice also gained more body fat. Body fat increased by nearly 11% in the fructose group of mice -- significantly more than the 5% increase in the water group. Body fat increased by 7% to 8% in the soft drink and diet soft drink groups.

Researchers say the results suggest that the body metabolizes fructose differently than other sweeteners or carbohydrates and in a way that favors fat storage


http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/109/109250.htm

other links
http://www.mercola.com/2004/apr/10/corn_fat.htm

http://www.thenutritionreporter.com/fructose_dangers.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8003-2003Mar10?language=printerUm...ok? Studies on mice? Do you have any links to human studies?



Fructose Does Not Stimulate Insulin Secretion

In addition, unlike glucose, fructose does not stimulate insulin secretion or enhance leptin, a hormone thought to be involved in appetite regulation, production. Because insulin and leptin act as key signals in regulating how much food you eat and body weight, this suggests that dietary fructose may contribute to increased food intake and weight gain.It says this may lead to increased food intake, which leads to weight gain. :scratch:


Fructose is Metabolized to Fat

The digestive and absorptive processes for glucose and fructose are different. Unlike glucose, which the body uses, when one consumes large amounts of fructose it is a relatively unregulated source of fuel for the liver to convert to fat and cholesterol. Fructose converts to fat more than any other sugar. It is also known to raise triglycerides significantly.I guess the moral of the story is...don't overconsume fructose. Natural fructose, on the other hand (as in the case of fruits), is fine to consume in large amounts. It's the processed crap that you have to consume less of...or none at all.



Most Fructose is Consumed as a Liquid

The fact that most fructose is consumed in a liquid form significantly magnifies its negative metabolic effects. The devastation it has on our biology would be significantly lessened if it were consumed in solid food, but as I mentioned above, most fructose is consumed in soft drinks and fruit juices.Just say no to soda.


i guess i wont be eating as much fruit as normalThere's nothing wrong with the natural fructose in fruit.

Slim Schaedle
05-03-2006, 10:51 PM
Um...ok? Studies on mice? Do you have any links to human studies?


It says this may lead to increased food intake, which leads to weight gain. :scratch:

I guess the moral of the story is...don't overconsume fructose. Natural fructose, on the other hand (as in the case of fruits), is fine to consume in large amounts. It's the processed crap that you have to consume less of...or none at all.


Just say no to soda.

There's nothing wrong with the natural fructose in fruit.
Hate to call you out Scarz, but the fructose in fruit works the same way as high fructose corn syrup, etc. (strictly in terms of the fructose molecules and their end products and intermediates ....disregarding natural enzymes, and other differences bewteen natural and processed).)

Fatty acid synthesis despite caloric deficit is very possible.

There are many other negatives as well.

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=78149

Be sure to check out the pics of the pathways also. Some form of them should be in your books, depending how far along you are in your program.

smalls
05-03-2006, 11:05 PM
Whey protein: I'll never use this again. EVER. whey is not only unsatisfying, it actually makes me hungry. in comparing how I feel/lift eating chicken and cheese to whey, I can honestly say that I strongly doubt the efficacy of whey. In my opinion, it is of little to no value.


I can understand where this can be helpfull for may people. I really WISH that whey made me hungry. I've been living off it and cut my cals in half (over time, cutting) and i'm still always full.

Everyone reacts a little different. I use whey all the time and probably always will.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-04-2006, 12:01 AM
Hate to call you out Scarz, but the fructose in fruit works the same way as high fructose corn syrup, etc. (strictly in terms of the fructose molecules and their end products and intermediates ....disregarding natural enzymes, and other differences bewteen natural and processed).)I'm referring to the natural enzymes that allow for the proper digestion of the fructose that comes from fruits that aren't in processed fructose products.


Fatty acid synthesis despite caloric deficit is very possible.This is what I get for being vague, lol.

However, this is all a bit new to me, so I'm learning here. I'm sure all of this information is in my thick class book. Perhaps I should go and read through the whole thing several times. :thumbup:

WildCard
05-04-2006, 12:02 AM
Fatty acid synthesis despite caloric deficit is very possible.

There are many other negatives as well.

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=78149



that link was good reading

Holto
05-04-2006, 09:28 AM
Cholesterol is made in the liver, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm still missing something here.

Is cholesterol sysnthesis effected by FA sysnthesis?

Holto
05-04-2006, 09:30 AM
Fatty acid synthesis despite caloric deficit is very possible.

Yes, but, we know eating fat doesn't make us fat.

Why would fat made by our liver be any less likely to be burned than stored than fat we eat?

I look forward to barely understanding your answer and possible sparking a google adventure.

.

Slim Schaedle
05-04-2006, 09:37 AM
Yes, but, we know eating fat doesn't make us fat.

Why would fat made by our liver be any less likely to be burned than stored than fat we eat?

I look forward to barely understanding your answer and possible sparking a google adventure.

.
I was hoping someone would catch it, but I only said fatty acid synthesis.

Not triglyceride formation (adipose tissue). Sort of a trick answer.

I should clear it up now before newbies misunderstand. However, the answer to your question is something I still need to look into to get a more complete answer.

Slim Schaedle
05-04-2006, 09:41 AM
I'm referring to the natural enzymes that allow for the proper digestion of the fructose that comes from fruits that aren't in processed fructose products.

This is what I get for being vague, lol.

However, this is all a bit new to me, so I'm learning here. I'm sure all of this information is in my thick class book. Perhaps I should go and read through the whole thing several times. :thumbup:
Good deal.

Yeah, they won't make you learn 75% of what's in the book and the answer to the specific important questions we battle through on here is in that 75%.

Doesn't help that the langauge reads like Japanese or something.

ddegroff
05-04-2006, 01:23 PM
Ok, I'm still trying to get a hold of this whole fructose thing. Slim, looking at those drawings you did and the pathways. Pathway 5 is the only one that mentioned the Acetyl CoA if not needed is converted to fatty acids. So if one were to consume Fruit or honey preworkout, wouldn't the body use the Acetyl CoA for energy before it was converted to Fatty acids?

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-04-2006, 02:49 PM
Good deal.

Yeah, they won't make you learn 75% of what's in the book and the answer to the specific important questions we battle through on here is in that 75%.

Doesn't help that the langauge reads like Japanese or something.Yeah...I just skimmed the chapter on fructose and there is a crapload of information regarding the subject matter, and many similar things to what you discussed.

DoUgL@S
05-04-2006, 03:53 PM
Fructose is processed the same in the body regardless of the source, as has already been stated, but the reason fruits are generally considered OK is because the fructose ispackaged with fiber, vitamins, minerals and antioxidants.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-04-2006, 04:14 PM
Fructose is processed regardless of the sourceSo you're saying fruits are processed? :scratch:



but the reason fruits are generally considered OK is because the fructose ispackaged with fiber, vitamins, minerals and antioxidants.You forgot the enzymes that allow the fructose to be digested more efficiently than without the enzymes (as in processed foods).

DoUgL@S
05-04-2006, 05:56 PM
So you're saying fruits are processed? :scratch:

You forgot the enzymes that allow the fructose to be digested more efficiently than without the enzymes (as in processed foods).

Processed the same in the body, via digestion and various metabolic pathways. Posted edited.

What enzymes are you talking about? "food enzymes that start digestion. . . in raw fruits?" -http://www.fruitarian.com/ac/Enzymes.htm Then yes I forgot that too.