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charles_316
05-20-2006, 01:52 PM
what's the best discipline to learn for self-defense? obviously, it is best to have a mix of everything but if you were to choose only one or one to begin with... would it be boxing, karate, jiu jitsu, etc?

jus curious cuz i wanna start one of these...

syrus
05-20-2006, 02:12 PM
As much as I enjoy boxing, I think ju jitsu would be the most beneficial.

monotone
05-20-2006, 03:06 PM
As much as I enjoy boxing, I think ju jitsu would be the most beneficial.

i agree... if i had to pick on form for self defense id probably pick ju jitsu

nejar462
05-20-2006, 07:04 PM
Learn MMA if you really wanna defend yourself effectively. None of the seperate arts can compete with with the best combination of them.

SkinnySadMan
05-20-2006, 07:19 PM
Learn Boxing over karate any day.

Kevin89
05-20-2006, 09:05 PM
learn boxing its more direct

mesayseo
05-20-2006, 10:59 PM
okay here is my opionon boxing, boxing, boxing.
here is why i have been in alot of fights.
i have fight people who fight street style and brown belt and black belt martial artist.
i fought a brown belt martial artist you know what happened first he tried what they teach you to do first hit a man in his jewels. then he missed and tried to kick me well i just grabbed his leg sure he caught me in the side but after that i controlled him put him on the ground and proceeded to punch him in the face until i saw blood. well i have harder time fighting street fighters b/c they were like boxers and stayed up and used there hands, which makes it harder to hit them b/c if you step in they aren't goin to give you anything to really grab and pull them to you.

well out of karate and boxing, take boxing, but martial arts ju juitsu b/c it gives you the ability to take the fight over at any time, also a sport you can do is wrestling its kinda like an american version of ju juistsu teaches you to take people down and take the fight over.

Ironman15
05-21-2006, 01:00 AM
okay here is my opionon boxing, boxing, boxing.
here is why i have been in alot of fights.
i have fight people who fight street style and brown belt and black belt martial artist.
i fought a brown belt martial artist you know what happened first he tried what they teach you to do first hit a man in his jewels. then he missed and tried to kick me well i just grabbed his leg sure he caught me in the side but after that i controlled him put him on the ground and proceeded to punch him in the face until i saw blood. well i have harder time fighting street fighters b/c they were like boxers and stayed up and used there hands, which makes it harder to hit them b/c if you step in they aren't goin to give you anything to really grab and pull them to you.

well out of karate and boxing, take boxing, but martial arts ju juitsu b/c it gives you the ability to take the fight over at any time, also a sport you can do is wrestling its kinda like an american version of ju juistsu teaches you to take people down and take the fight over.

Kick em in the jewels eh? Were you fighting a someone who had taken a women's self-defense class?

Hazerboy
05-21-2006, 01:16 AM
Street fighting, a wrestling match, a karate match and a ju-jitsu match are all VERY different things. Sure, karate, wrestling or ju-jitsu would help you in a street fight, but I think you're either over doing it or over specifying. You're not going to wrestling or doing karate. There will be no bowing, no shaking hands. Most likely you will get sucker punched - in most common brawls the winner is the first to hit (unless you know what you're doing!).

So sure, learn whatever style you want, and although it may be helpful, it will most likely be too specified.

Bruce Lee found out this problem when learning martial arts - most are either too specified, or not suited for real fighting, and are only suited for tournaments or fighting those of the same style. Instead he created his own style.

My advice? Get a book by Sammy Franco; this guy knows what he's talking about.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-21-2006, 03:46 AM
Kung Fu > Karate. Boxing > Karate.

You could try Capoeira. That stuff just looks freaking cool.

Clifford Gillmore
05-21-2006, 05:32 AM
Krav Maga.

There is no substitute.

ShockBoxer
05-21-2006, 08:23 AM
.44 Magnum. There is no substitute (well, shotgun... but it's not as concealable).

Gun + any sort of accuracy + distance between you and the attacker aside... I'm partial to boxing (duh) for strikes and judo for throws and defense.

Chubrock
05-21-2006, 09:04 AM
Learn to handle yourself on the ground (whether that be BJJ, Judo or Sambo). The reason I say this, is because most people have some type of striking programmed into their genetic code. The cavemen knew how to strike to some degree. Being able to handle yourself and remain calm, while on the ground, could prove to be the turning point in a fight.


Also, whoever said that kicking somebody in the jewels is for a women's self defense class, is dead wrong. There are absolutely NO rules when it comes to defending yourself. If I have to grab your balls and twist them off, so be it. I'll do what I have to do to go to the house.

ShockBoxer
05-21-2006, 09:56 AM
Plus, those women's self defense classes do teach self defense. The rules they teach (aim for sensitive and vital parts, get a hold of a weapon as soon as possible, keep your attacker from pinning you by tucking your knees to your chest) are just as applicable to both genders.

They can't stress enough 'get a hold of a weapon' in those classes. The one I sat through (guys aren't allowed to attend but if they're there with their wives they can sit quietly and hold a purse) made sure to hammer home the point that anything that you can move around easily that doesn't feel pain is a weapon: keys, a shoe, a bottle... anything. It doesn't take a lot of force to pop a key through a guys neck... anyone can do it. It *probably* won't kill the guy but it will definitely give him something to think about.

CiteCollegiale
05-21-2006, 10:21 AM
Boxing is better because of all the sparring. Most karate clubs practice by kicking air.

Nickthebassist
05-21-2006, 11:30 AM
Learn MMA if you really wanna defend yourself effectively. None of the seperate arts can compete with with the best combination of them.
I don't even know what MMA is, however I do know that knowing just one martial art is not all that useful. You need to know many different styles.

Sensei
05-21-2006, 11:53 AM
How long are you going to stick with it?

There are so many schools of karate that it's hard to say whether they're good for self-defense or not. I've known a lot of karateka who were tough SOBs you wouldn't want to mess with anywhere, but I've visited some schools that were really kata-based. It all depends.

If you were mugged by a group of thugs, you'd want to have enough skills to get away with your health intact. Throwing a punch or two would be about all you'd have time to do before you either make a break for it, or they tackle you and take turns kicking the snot out of you. In this scenario, I'd go w. boxing and maybe karate.

KingJustin
05-21-2006, 12:22 PM
I just started taking MMA classes, and my kickbox coach (who is pretty well known, Joe Lewis is his name) talked trash about Karate every chance he got. He kept saying how Karate-practitioners can't throw a punch and that they get their asses kicked on the streets and stuff. Based on the fact that he's well-respected in the Karate community (google his name) and he still thinks it's worthless, I would say go with boxing for sure.

I would expect most fights to be decided by one or two good shots in the face. If you box for a couple years you'll build fast reactions that'll let you avert/block/counter those punches and you'll be throwing with a lot more power and precision. Most of the UFC title holders do a lot of boxing, and I think it's by far the most useful on the street, especially because if you're jumped by a couple guys or get in a fight in a crowded place then you're not going to be able to do any BJJ work or anything. I think BJJ is a lot better in "official" fights than street fights, despite the fact that I really like the "sport."

wdjuqi
05-21-2006, 01:04 PM
I would really love to take boxing/MMA classes, but I'm skinny as a rail and would probably look like a total goon. Plus I probably punch like a girl. :confused:

Andre3000
05-21-2006, 02:45 PM
Karate develops your reflexes more, but boxing would be better when it comes to defedning yourself, as its more practical.

Ironman15
05-21-2006, 04:48 PM
Learn to handle yourself on the ground (whether that be BJJ, Judo or Sambo). The reason I say this, is because most people have some type of striking programmed into their genetic code. The cavemen knew how to strike to some degree. Being able to handle yourself and remain calm, while on the ground, could prove to be the turning point in a fight.


Also, whoever said that kicking somebody in the jewels is for a women's self defense class, is dead wrong. There are absolutely NO rules when it comes to defending yourself. If I have to grab your balls and twist them off, so be it. I'll do what I have to do to go to the house.



Plus, those women's self defense classes do teach self defense. The rules they teach (aim for sensitive and vital parts, get a hold of a weapon as soon as possible, keep your attacker from pinning you by tucking your knees to your chest) are just as applicable to both genders.

They can't stress enough 'get a hold of a weapon' in those classes. The one I sat through (guys aren't allowed to attend but if they're there with their wives they can sit quietly and hold a purse) made sure to hammer home the point that anything that you can move around easily that doesn't feel pain is a weapon: keys, a shoe, a bottle... anything. It doesn't take a lot of force to pop a key through a guys neck... anyone can do it. It *probably* won't kill the guy but it will definitely give him something to think about.

You guys are killing me. The guy said that martial arts teaches you to kick people in the nuts. I haven't taken any martial arts classes yet, but I'm assuming they teach you more than kicking someone in the nuts. I was talking martial arts, not street fighting. My mom went to a self-defense course for women and the first thing they taught you to do was to go after the attackers key spots, one being the nuts. Therefore I threw that comment in.

mesayseo
05-21-2006, 08:29 PM
i am not saying that is all it teaches you. not saying that at all.
but when i went with a friend to a taikwondoe (dont know how to spell it)
class the first thing they went over were the spots that would leave an attacker immobilized and at least 3 or 4 of the moves were aimed for groin shots. the kid was a brown belt in taikwondoe from my friends class. the first thing he did was try and kick me in the balls.

kw1k
05-22-2006, 12:55 AM
okay here is my opionon boxing, boxing, boxing.
here is why i have been in alot of fights.
i have fight people who fight street style and brown belt and black belt martial artist.
i fought a brown belt martial artist you know what happened first he tried what they teach you to do first hit a man in his jewels. then he missed and tried to kick me well i just grabbed his leg sure he caught me in the side but after that i controlled him put him on the ground and proceeded to punch him in the face until i saw blood. well i have harder time fighting street fighters b/c they were like boxers and stayed up and used there hands, which makes it harder to hit them b/c if you step in they aren't goin to give you anything to really grab and pull them to you.

well out of karate and boxing, take boxing, but martial arts ju juitsu b/c it gives you the ability to take the fight over at any time, also a sport you can do is wrestling its kinda like an american version of ju juistsu teaches you to take people down and take the fight over.

:scratch: Jesus christ, your grammer is horrible.

SkinnySadMan
05-22-2006, 01:17 PM
I say learn how to run real quick.

nejar462
05-22-2006, 01:30 PM
Ok the best self defense is to avoid fights period. This means avoiding bad neighborhoods and trying not to piss people off in volatile situations. Being in large groups with friends who will help is also good.

That being said to me the most effective combat style self defense is a style all on its own. It would involve practicing eye gouging, head butts, throat strikes, and small joint manipulation. If you can practice this stuff with a live resisting opponent (preferably heavily padded) you will be fine.

MMA is an acronym for mixed martial arts. MMA is a sport which is probably as close to a street fight as any sport will ever be. MMA fights allow anything except for certain strikes on downed opponents, headbutts, using fingers in opponents orifices, biting, and small joint manipulation. MMA tends to be a combination of wrestling, Muay Thai, and BJJ.

A few years ago you couldn't really find MMA classes, and each of the styles above was taught seperately and it was up to the person to combine them. Now they're starting to teach MMA classes. MMA is probably best sport oriented self defense you can learn.

Absolute
05-22-2006, 03:57 PM
Invest in a good pair of running shoes. That'll probably save your butt more than anything.

Or a knife. That's always good, too. Easily concealable...all that good stuff.

But if you must choose a martial art, I would say go with MMA. Krav Maga is good also, and will probably teach you how to deal with weapons, whereas MMA won't.

DokterVet
05-22-2006, 07:31 PM
For self-defence, your best bets are MMA, or some combination of boxing, kickboxing, BJJ/submission wrestling, wrestling, judo.

Chubrock
05-22-2006, 07:35 PM
Don't carry a weapon unless you know how, and are WILLING TO USE IT. If you aren't truley willing to use it, it will get taken from you and used against you.

I prefer blood and oxygen chokes (mostly blood) to small joint manipulation. Some peopl have a very high pain tolerance, and often times, small joint manipulation will prove uneffective. I've yet to see somebody last very long in a properly sunk in choke.

If you train something that deals with weapon take aways and such, PLEASE learn how to handle the ****in weapon once you take it away. I've seen too many people that could do a have decent takeaway, but then had no idea how to properly use the weapon.

Personally I feel the best way to train self defense is to learn something to help you on the ground, because chances are, it will happen. Also, if it is a self defense situation, I would train sucker punches, throat shots, short elbow strikes, muay thai kicks and knees and groin strikes. Also one big thing that people fail to utilize is the pyschological (sp?) side of things. Learn to engage your adversary mentally, so it gives you a one up once the **** hits the fan.

tattoojr
05-22-2006, 07:45 PM
Krav Maga, It teaches self defence to the fullest. Most street fight end on the ground and get there within a minute or two. Krav Maga teaches how to handle yourself on your feet and on the ground.J.R.

Chubrock
05-22-2006, 08:30 PM
If you are going to learn to take care of yourself on the ground, I suggest taking something that focuses a lot on ground work. Krav Maga and Kenpo technically have some ground work in it, but trust me when I say that focusing on a more refined grappling art will help you out much more than something that only partly does ground work.

jazer80
05-23-2006, 09:43 AM
out of my limited experience with real world fights, i've gotta cast my vote for combination of wrestling/grappling stuff and boxing/striking. learning kicks may be effective if you're crazy good, but in any street fight it usually goes: couple standing punches, some grappling, floor, striking til someone 'gives' haha. i was (am) a very good wrestler, and any fight i've been in ended with the other person on their back. it's not even a conscious thing, it's second nature if you wrestle. and once someone is on their back, if you can strike solidly, forget about it

Jedi Knight
05-24-2006, 03:29 PM
I took taekwondo for about 3-4 mo... honestly it sucked. After 3 mo. I was beating the black belts. That's when I knew it was time to quit, waste of money. Martial arts is about discipline, I respect it for what it is, but any athletic guy that can use his hands and has good balance will be able to beat up on a marial artist. (To a certain extent) Boxing for sure, if I had to pick from the two, but expanded... MMA, I've done Brazilian Jiu Jitsu too, those guys are bad A's! Make sure you can grapple.

solid
05-25-2006, 09:27 AM
As a couple people have hinted at, real-world self defense is all about reflexes and quick reaction time. Almost any martial art/sport you train will improve your reaction time, with consistent repetition. That being said, boxing, sport karate, and tournament jiu-jitsu all focus on the "sport" and attacks and defenses common in competition.

Most karate programs available to the normal public focus at least partly on self-defense against a wide range of attacks (thereby building your reflexes in many different situations) - whereas a real boxing gym would only focus on the skills needed in a boxing match.

If you had to choose one for pure self-defense, I would go with karate or something similar.

Chubrock
05-25-2006, 10:13 AM
If you had to choose one for pure self-defense, I would go with karate or something similar.



I'm going to have to disagree bro. Most of the attacks that are taught in karate are not going to be something useful to use in a fight. Most karate places teach around a scoring system. This in turn has people pulling punches and kicks, instead of focusing on an actual transfer of energy. Another problem with karate is the fact that 95% of the places you see are McDojos, and not worth whatever you spend on classes. Almost everywhere that trains BJJ or something less "hollywood" is legit. Also, a lot of these places teach all around fighting as well as the sport side of BJJ. The studio I train, trains police officers, sheriff deputies, military, as well as also training the sport side of BJJ. We do a good bit of practical standup as well, which isn't something that a lot of places do. I just feel that Karate isn't really good for much other than looking cool and scoring points. When it comes to a raw streetfighting type situation, I believe a person would be much better suited with some ground experience and a stronger standup background such as Muay Thai.

solid
05-25-2006, 10:35 AM
I just feel that Karate isn't really good for much other than looking cool and scoring points.

Well, that's true if you're talking about a purely competition karate school, that focuses only on point sparring and open (contemporary) forms. But I doubt any of the old-school karate guys, the ones who built the systems, were worried about scoring points. I'm just saying that if you can find a dojo that places at least some emphasis on self-defense (rather than only tournament competition), you'll train your body to react to a wider variety of attacks than in training at a boxing gym. I mean, how often do you see guys at Gleasons Gym training to defend against wrist grabs, bearhugs and headlocks?

I'm with you though, the more well-rounded you can get the better.

mesayseo
05-25-2006, 02:17 PM
:scratch: Jesus christ, your grammer is horrible.

Are you an english teacher? there is no need to be formal on this forum its not like im writing a report for school.

KingJustin
05-25-2006, 04:45 PM
I agree with Chubrock that Karate is not a great martial art to learn. I mean, just look at the UFC. How many of those guys have a background in karate? Judo, Muay Tai, Kickboxing, BJJ & Wrestling are what you always see.

One thing, though. I don't see how BJJ really correlates well to most situations where you'd get into a fight and you need to defend yourself. Usually when I see fights it's in a crowded bar or there's more than one person involved, in which case I don't think BJJ would be that effective ... BUT, in a more "official" fight, if you know BJJ and the other guy doesn't it's pretty much game over if you can get a takedown.

Chubrock
05-25-2006, 07:28 PM
BJJ might not be the best thing to know when it comes to fighting in a crowded bar, but most fights don't happen there. Of course a lot of fights do occur in bars, but as far as the majority of fights, this isn't the case. I read some statistics awhile back that stated that over 70% of all fights will at some point reach the ground. They might not stay there or be finished there, but they'll reach that point at one time or another. The ability to remain calm and jockey for the right position to survive or finish is crucial.

Bam
05-25-2006, 09:35 PM
first off i think you need to realize when your street fighting you wont be able to kick very well cause of your pants or some shorts thats the problem with that kicking ****. My advice would be boxing all fights have punches involved ive never seen a street fight in video or in person where someone gets kicked.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
05-25-2006, 09:40 PM
Are you an english teacher? there is no need to be formal on this forum its not like im writing a report for school.He spelled grammar wrong. Oh the irony.

Andre3000
05-25-2006, 11:02 PM
Basically what you need to know if you really need to defend yourslef and you're not fighting for the fun of it but for your life:

Kick in the nuts, elbows to the head, squeeze the jugular, kick in the knees. have em on the ground; kick em in the head.

That is like life threatening fighting though so, you know, use it sparingly.

jazer80
05-26-2006, 07:51 AM
Basically what you need to know if you really need to defend yourslef and you're not fighting for the fun of it but for your life:

Kick in the nuts, elbows to the head, squeeze the jugular, kick in the knees. have em on the ground; kick em in the head.

That is like life threatening fighting though so, you know, use it sparingly.
:thumbup:

that's gotta be your approach if you're really defending yourself, nad not just having a good fight (huge difference there, i mean it's not cool, in my area/ mind anyways, to kick in the nuts in a regular bar fight. but if you got attacked or were out numbered it's another thing. don't be instigating people then kick them in the nuts when tehy go to kick your ass).

but even to that you need to know how to handle yourself on the ground, and how to strike. the sport of wrestling is about being able to hold a person with both shoulder blades touching the ground. they can't do anything to you in this position. either way you need some kind of grappling sport to handle yourself on the ground so you end up on top.

and striking with hands is crucial while you're on your feet, because your grappling will be useless if you can't see straight because you couldn't blokc a hit. and knowing good hand / foot strikes is huge for when you get him down.

or, if it is really all abou tself defense, maybe you should just go get urself some permits outnumber

charles_316
05-26-2006, 11:48 AM
thanks for all the insightful replies...

from what most of you have said, karate prolly isn't the best to begin with for self-defense...

ive been looking into taking some boxing classes and brazilian jiu jitsu offered at http://www.joslinskarate.com/

Andre3000
05-26-2006, 02:14 PM
:thumbup:

that's gotta be your approach if you're really defending yourself, nad not just having a good fight (huge difference there, i mean it's not cool, in my area/ mind anyways, to kick in the nuts in a regular bar fight. but if you got attacked or were out numbered it's another thing. don't be instigating people then kick them in the nuts when tehy go to kick your ass).

but even to that you need to know how to handle yourself on the ground, and how to strike. the sport of wrestling is about being able to hold a person with both shoulder blades touching the ground. they can't do anything to you in this position. either way you need some kind of grappling sport to handle yourself on the ground so you end up on top.

and striking with hands is crucial while you're on your feet, because your grappling will be useless if you can't see straight because you couldn't blokc a hit. and knowing good hand / foot strikes is huge for when you get him down.

or, if it is really all abou tself defense, maybe you should just go get urself some permits outnumber

I know man, I said that's for if your life is on the line and you really need to kick some ass.

Jedi Knight
05-26-2006, 03:07 PM
Dude if it's all about manipulating some body parts w/ gauges and twisting fingers... Steven Segal is the frickin man!!! Honestly, you have to be tough and be able to take a blow and throw guaged punches well placed. Be able to get to the ground and get in a full mount or like someone else said, Jockey for position. Btw... for self defense which this is all about, 2-3 hits then get the f@#$ out of there... Boxing or Muy Thai win again.

jazer80
05-26-2006, 04:04 PM
I know man, I said that's for if your life is on the line and you really need to kick some ass.
agreed. plus most of the situations where you would be at risk, you don't have your piece on you (i know i don't anyways). you're running serious risks bringing a gun on your person if you're drinking (I'M ONLY TALKING ABOUT THOSE WITH VALID PERMITS, YA KNOW!), i think yuou can get in real trouble for that. definitely lose your permit. anyways the majority of the time you would need self defense is out partying, on drugs/booze, when you wouldn't have one on ya

great home defense tho, even the sound of loading my big one would make you **** urself




Dude if it's all about manipulating some body parts w/ gauges and twisting fingers... Steven Segal is the frickin man!!! Honestly, you have to be tough and be able to take a blow and throw guaged punches well placed. Be able to get to the ground and get in a full mount or like someone else said, Jockey for position. Btw... for self defense which this is all about, 2-3 hits then get the f@#$ out of there... Boxing or Muy Thai win again.
i feel dumb for not having gotten into that. i was so busy thinking of fighting styles, i missed the main damn point. i don't care how hard you train at a particular style. when it comes down to it, and i hate this goddamn expression, but really 'it isn't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog'.

that is going to make the difference in most fights. now, given that you have two guys who aren't afraid to take hits, and are equally aggressive, then skill becomes more important. however, in my experience, it seems like teh people who seek self defense skills are the kind who really need to just become tougher (psychologically), and don't really need to be a bigger dog, but to get a bigger fight in them, so to speak

KingJustin
05-26-2006, 05:14 PM
however, in my experience, it seems like teh people who seek self defense skills are the kind who really need to just become tougher (psychologically), and don't really need to be a bigger dog, but to get a bigger fight in them, so to speak
I'd love to see you come to my gym (or many others that train MMA).

Andre3000
05-26-2006, 05:46 PM
agreed. plus most of the situations where you would be at risk, you don't have your piece on you (i know i don't anyways). you're running serious risks bringing a gun on your person if you're drinking (I'M ONLY TALKING ABOUT THOSE WITH VALID PERMITS, YA KNOW!), i think yuou can get in real trouble for that. definitely lose your permit. anyways the majority of the time you would need self defense is out partying, on drugs/booze, when you wouldn't have one on ya

great home defense tho, even the sound of loading my big one would make you **** urself




i feel dumb for not having gotten into that. i was so busy thinking of fighting styles, i missed the main damn point. i don't care how hard you train at a particular style. when it comes down to it, and i hate this goddamn expression, but really 'it isn't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog'.

that is going to make the difference in most fights. now, given that you have two guys who aren't afraid to take hits, and are equally aggressive, then skill becomes more important. however, in my experience, it seems like teh people who seek self defense skills are the kind who really need to just become tougher (psychologically), and don't really need to be a bigger dog, but to get a bigger fight in them, so to speak

UNless it's an enormous dog with an even larger amount of fight, then you're f***ed.

Bam
05-26-2006, 06:26 PM
every dog has there day. :)

Andre3000
05-26-2006, 06:30 PM
Show of hands, how many people here have been in an actual street fight? I'm just wondering.

jazer80
05-26-2006, 07:19 PM
I'd love to see you come to my gym (or many others that train MMA).
? are you saying that if you train mma style, and you don't have heart/fight, you will still be able to take tough bastards who don't have training?

jazer80
05-26-2006, 07:23 PM
Show of hands, how many people here have been in an actual street fight? I'm just wondering.
4 that would qualify as actual fights. got the living **** kicked out of me (and my friends) for starting a fight with these kids w/o realizing that a larger group of kids were actually there with them. two were with teh same damn kid, though separated by many months. i won both of those, but they were very dumb fights. my hands were barely even sore. and 1 fight where some kid just sucker punched me because he thought i was one of my friends, and i beat the lliving hell out of him. like really, really bad. he got 1 hit in on me, and i grabbed his elbow as he was hitting me and did a duck under (wrestling move where i basically put him to his knees wiht me behind him, and yes i know how gay that sounds). i proceeded to kick the **** out of him until i was sure he wouldn't get up (not because i'm sadistic but because he was a lot bigger than me and there's a good chance if he got up he wouldn't have gone back down.)

KingJustin
05-26-2006, 07:26 PM
? are you saying that if you train mma style, and you don't have heart/fight, you will still be able to take tough bastards who don't have training?
No. I'm saying that people that train for martial arts aren't all a bunch of pussies. Pretty much everyone at my gym is pretty tough..

jazer80
05-26-2006, 07:47 PM
No. I'm saying that people that train for martial arts aren't all a bunch of pussies. Pretty much everyone at my gym is pretty tough..
that's not what i meant, sorry for the confusion. i mean people who look for fighting as a means of self defense, people who come across as needing protection in the first place, need to become tougher, not hone their fighting skills.

i'm sure that every fighting discipline has centers where everyone is very tough and does it for sport, and centers/dojos/whatever where it is people who don't feel like tehy can protect themselves.

the tough guys at your gym were most likely tough before they started mma is what i mean. and if they weren't tough beforehand, and they are now, i'd guess it had more to do with being around tough guys while learning the stuff than the actual practice of learning fighting moves.

Andre3000
05-26-2006, 08:01 PM
4 that would qualify as actual fights. got the living **** kicked out of me (and my friends) for starting a fight with these kids w/o realizing that a larger group of kids were actually there with them. two were with teh same damn kid, though separated by many months. i won both of those, but they were very dumb fights. my hands were barely even sore. and 1 fight where some kid just sucker punched me because he thought i was one of my friends, and i beat the lliving hell out of him. like really, really bad. he got 1 hit in on me, and i grabbed his elbow as he was hitting me and did a duck under (wrestling move where i basically put him to his knees wiht me behind him, and yes i know how gay that sounds). i proceeded to kick the **** out of him until i was sure he wouldn't get up (not because i'm sadistic but because he was a lot bigger than me and there's a good chance if he got up he wouldn't have gone back down.)

Savage. I miss sparring with other people.

wdjuqi
05-26-2006, 09:31 PM
I'm really wondering...if a skinny dude who has no fighting experience whatsoever showed up to train for muay tai or BJJ, would he just be a joke in the class?

Organichu
05-26-2006, 09:56 PM
I'm really wondering...if a skinny dude who has no fighting experience whatsoever showed up to train for muay tai or BJJ, would he just be a joke in the class?

There are generally either 1.) beginner classes for new people, or 2.) very tolerant teachers.

Centers don't make a lot of money from laughing at new people. They can't expect everyone that comes to them to already be experienced- they all need to start somewhere.

toki
05-27-2006, 04:28 PM
take an MMA class or find someone you consider a friend who knows how to fight teach you the finer points with some no glove sparing. You will get jabbed in the face. your pride will hurt more than your face. you will learn.

jazer80
05-27-2006, 07:54 PM
take an MMA class or find someone you consider a friend who knows how to fight teach you the finer points with some no glove sparing. You will get jabbed in the face. your pride will hurt more than your face. you will learn.
yeah if there is a place/way to learn to get tougher, it's to do tough things with tough people.

if you do greco wrestling (lots of throw/slams) or mma or whatever, you're gonna be around people who are tough, which will rub off, and you'll get tougher naturally as you deal with getting hurt like crazy on a regular basis.

KingJustin
05-30-2006, 11:57 AM
Sure take karate etc it will help but don't expect it to help in fights

If you don't have any experience in BJJ and get into a ground fight with someone that has even a few months experience, you're going to be in over your head. It's not too hard to learn to throw a jab, get close and then lock up and get the fight on the ground ...

DokterVet
05-30-2006, 03:00 PM
I'm really wondering...if a skinny dude who has no fighting experience whatsoever showed up to train for muay tai or BJJ, would he just be a joke in the class?

If you show up with an attitude and an ego, you might get beaten up.

If you show up to learn, they will be happy to teach you.
In my experience BJJ/grappling gyms are more friendly and casual than traditional japanophile martial arts clubs.

Andre3000
05-30-2006, 04:45 PM
If you show up with an attitude and an ego, you might get beaten up.

If you show up to learn, they will be happy to teach you.
In my experience BJJ/grappling gyms are more friendly and casual than traditional japanophile martial arts clubs.

I agree with this, find a place that is casual.

Detard
05-30-2006, 08:59 PM
i figure i might aswell chime in on this thread seeing as i train in muay thai, BJJ and jeet kune do, and almost every weekend when im out with friends there are fights.

most fights are because one guy said something to another guy/girlfriend, or he hit the guys brother, boy, cousin, etc, or the just had beef from before. if any of these are the case, then usually it will be a x on 1 (sub in whatever number you want for x) and then usually one of the x guys will sucker punch the 1 guy. i was at a park party on the weekend and everyone was pretty drunk. this one guy said something to someone else, then the other guy got all his boys. while they were beefing, somone from the back of the crowd suckerpunched the dude in the face, then he fell to the ground and everyone started kicking him.

in that sort of situation i think it would be betterr to have some good instincts as to when to back down. if its a 5 on 1 and you did something so stpuid that your friends wont back u up, then its time to back down.

if its just a 1 on 1 fight, then that is where you really want to know some good MMA. BJJ, Muay Thai, and jeet kune do imo are the best things to learn if you want some self defence. i got in a little tussle at school today with my buddy(just joking around) and when he went to grab my shirt, i simply unlocked his arm and got him in a rear naked choke and made him tap.

BJJ is a good thing to learn because most fights will go to the ground. when the fight goes to the ground you really want to be able to stay calm, and know what to do if someone overpowers you. Martial arts teach alot of respect aswell. Most street fighters will continue to punch/kick/elbow the other guy until there is blood or the guy is unconcious(if hes really pissed) Martial arts teaches you to keep your cool, control your temper and other great skills that you can use in the real world.


sorry for the essay, but i just thought i'd give my .02


edit for grammar

theVict1m
05-31-2006, 03:51 PM
Martial arts teaches you to keep your cool, control your temper and other great skills that you can use in the real world.



What other great skills does it teach? Just curious.

Chubrock
05-31-2006, 07:32 PM
What other great skills does it teach? Just curious.

Dunno about other places, but Fear Systems teaches you how to engage people mentally, assess situations, make quick decisions. You also learn a good deal of respect.

LouPac
06-01-2006, 03:22 AM
okay here is my opionon boxing, boxing, boxing.
here is why i have been in alot of fights.
i have fight people who fight street style and brown belt and black belt martial artist.
i fought a brown belt martial artist you know what happened first he tried what they teach you to do first hit a man in his jewels. then he missed and tried to kick me well i just grabbed his leg sure he caught me in the side but after that i controlled him put him on the ground and proceeded to punch him in the face until i saw blood. well i have harder time fighting street fighters b/c they were like boxers and stayed up and used there hands, which makes it harder to hit them b/c if you step in they aren't goin to give you anything to really grab and pull them to you.

well out of karate and boxing, take boxing, but martial arts ju juitsu b/c it gives you the ability to take the fight over at any time, also a sport you can do is wrestling its kinda like an american version of ju juistsu teaches you to take people down and take the fight over.

Geez, I got a headache trying to read that.

PUNCTUATION! You ever hear of it? Learn it, live it, love it.

jdeity
06-01-2006, 12:20 PM
What other great skills does it teach? Just curious.
me too

Keith
06-01-2006, 12:24 PM
In terms of self-defense? Judo by far. The training for it alone its amazing. Its all grappling, take downs and ground work. Everything you need when being attacked. A fight will only last about 2 seconds before someone has a grip on you. With judo experience, if they or you have a grip on them, there finished! Man do I ever miss judo.

Chubrock
06-01-2006, 02:01 PM
In terms of self-defense? Judo by far. The training for it alone its amazing. Its all grappling, take downs and ground work. Everything you need when being attacked. A fight will only last about 2 seconds before someone has a grip on you. With judo experience, if they or you have a grip on them, there finished! Man do I ever miss judo.


While I agree that Judo is a very good grappling art, Judo lacks some real life carry over. It's fairly easy to stall most Judo throws, and the ground work for most Judo practitioners is lacking. That is while you'll see most BBs go for ippon instead of trying to work from the ground. As far as being on the ground, BJJ or Sambo can't be stopped. The throws in Judo are def. bad ass, but as far as learning to takedown somebody you're fighting, wrestling can't be beat, as long as you learn to avoid the guillotine.

wannabebig...er
06-01-2006, 02:52 PM
doesnt matter how big or strong or "hard" you are, one goood punch and youre down.........martial arts isnt as practical as boxing for "street fights" which, i presume is why youre asking

KingJustin
06-01-2006, 03:49 PM
That's not entirely true. Go watch the "Cabbage" / Sylvia fight and look how many hard shots Cabbage took. You can build a chin and such.

Also, I like striking and such, too. But, if there's a pure boxer that isn't all that skilled in takedown defense, it's not THAT hard to get him on the ground. Just look at the ease Royce Gracie had when he first entered the UFC. It's not too hard to throw a jab, get close and then tie up, or just throw a punch and then shoot in, etc. As soon as it gets on the ground, a skilled BJJ fighter is going to win almost every time over one with little training in ground fighting.

Edit: Hah, after talking about this I had a pretty relevant drill in MMA class today. We split into 2 groups of 12 or so, one strikers and one wrestlers. Each wrestler had to go through a gauntlet of the strikers and get a take down on each person. Well, a couple of the guys are really talented, and they said the strikers could fight as hard as they wanted (granted we had gloves on, but some of us can punch pretty hard). Well, they still went right through and got a takedown on everyone without getting hurt too bad. That in mind, a skilled takedown/submission "artist" shouldn't have too much trouble in a "street" fight against some random big guy that likes to throw punches with some power. This isn't to say the guys I train with could do the same thing against Chuck Liddell, but still ...

Detard
06-02-2006, 10:56 PM
What other great skills does it teach? Just curious.

it can teach you to keep your cool in situations, it teaches you self respect and respect for others(not punching the **** out of a guy till hes dead), how to deal with people that are dumbasses without getting pissed... you never know when the things you learn might come in handy.

KevinStarke
06-03-2006, 12:07 AM
Kevins fire breath > MMA

MantiXX
06-05-2006, 01:47 PM
Might as well chime in... Background is 26 years in MMA (total combined arts of Goju Karate, Wing Chun DO, Baguazhang Chuan Fa, Muay Thai, Boxing and the last few years combined MMA)....

I used to bounce a few years back (for about 4 years) and have been in a few scrapes..

1). Learn a striking art. You may have incredibly fast hands and not even know it... Boxing is excellent for that...

2). Karate is pretty good (find an 'old style' school that has hard sparring (at more advanced belts such as kyoshikin) and STAY AWAY from the point/trophy fighting schools!! Legs are VERY powerful and one good front kick or knee can do wonders... Most are starting to teach the 'sprawl' from high school wrestling anyways...

3). Learn some wrestling/BJJ.. ALot of fights do end up on the ground, however you DO NOT want to take it there if you can avoid it. There is almost ALWAYS bystanders that will throw in shots at you (even if you're in the mount), the other dude may have a blade - grew up with a Filipino family that LOVED blades and I learned SOOOOOO much from them, you do NOT want to grapple with someone who's skilled with a blade - YOU HAVE TO STRIKE them (thats assuming they let you even KNOW they have a blade - and by then its too late))..

4). SIZE does matter when it comes to a fight.. Dont let anyone kid you.. A 240 lb dude will smash a 180 lb dude 9 times out of 10. Even a BJJ guy can and will get owned. Remember that the UFC/Pride does NOT allow groin shots, eye gouges etc etc. A 240 lb dude in your guard can heavily punch your balls through the pavement in one shot (or knee etc). Also just laying on you, he can knock out your wind. Theres also the drugged up people who feel no pain or are just nuts (I'm in the looney dept myself...LOL)...

5). Yeh, Royce showed us that he could beat alot of stand up people (wrestlers have been beating boxers for DECADES in challenges). However, I honestly have always stated that had Royce met up with a Great wrestler/striker combo, he may have lost one of his earlier fights (speculation on my part, but hey, he fought for 30 minutes to a standstill with Kenny boy and DIDN"T win - so what might have happened, had a friend been there? See my point)..

6) Great advice from above, AVOID areas that will likely start fights or get you jumped...

Anyways, good luck and keep that chin tucked in...:ninja:

Peace out..

Chubrock
06-05-2006, 01:50 PM
Might as well chime in... Background is 26 years in MMA (total combined arts of Goju Karate, Wing Chun DO, Baguazhang Chuan Fa, Muay Thai, Boxing and the last few years combined MMA)....

I used to bounce a few years back (for about 4 years) and have been in a few scrapes..

1). Learn a striking art. You may have incredibly fast hands and not even know it... Boxing is excellent for that...

2). Karate is pretty good (find an 'old style' school that has hard sparring (at more advanced belts such as kyoshikin) and STAY AWAY from the point/trophy fighting schools!! Legs are VERY powerful and one good front kick or knee can do wonders... Most are starting to teach the 'sprawl' from high school wrestling anyways...

3). Learn some wrestling/BJJ.. ALot of fights do end up on the ground, however you DO NOT want to take it there if you can avoid it. There is almost ALWAYS bystanders that will throw in shots at you (even if you're in the mount), the other dude may have a blade - grew up with a Filipino family that LOVED blades and I learned SOOOOOO much from them, you do NOT want to grapple with someone who's skilled with a blade - YOU HAVE TO STRIKE them (thats assuming they let you even KNOW they have a blade - and by then its too late))..

4). SIZE does matter when it comes to a fight.. Dont let anyone kid you.. A 240 lb dude will smash a 180 lb dude 9 times out of 10. Even a BJJ guy can and will get owned. Remember that the UFC/Pride does NOT allow groin shots, eye gouges etc etc. A 240 lb dude in your guard can heavily punch your balls through the pavement in one shot (or knee etc). Also just laying on you, he can knock out your wind. Theres also the drugged up people who feel no pain or are just nuts (I'm in the looney dept myself...LOL)...

5). Yeh, Royce showed us that he could beat alot of stand up people (wrestlers have been beating boxers for DECADES in challenges). However, I honestly have always stated that had Royce met up with a Great wrestler/striker combo, he may have lost one of his earlier fights (speculation on my part, but hey, he fought for 30 minutes to a standstill with Kenny boy and DIDN"T win - so what might have happened, had a friend been there? See my point)..

6) Great advice from above, AVOID areas that will likely start fights or get you jumped...

Anyways, good luck and keep that chin tucked in...:ninja:

Peace out..




Damn good advice man. Good to see somebody around here that covers all areas.

Maki Riddington
06-05-2006, 04:23 PM
While I agree that Judo is a very good grappling art, Judo lacks some real life carry over. It's fairly easy to stall most Judo throws, and the ground work for most Judo practitioners is lacking. That is while you'll see most BBs go for ippon instead of trying to work from the ground. As far as being on the ground, BJJ or Sambo can't be stopped. The throws in Judo are def. bad ass, but as far as learning to takedown somebody you're fighting, wrestling can't be beat, as long as you learn to avoid the guillotine.

How is it easy to stall a Judo throw? Seeing that there are many variations and ways to approach a throw depending on the attacker.

As for going for the throw instead of working from the ground up. In competiton you'll have maybe 10 seocnds if you're lucky to work something once you go to the ground. If you don't the match is stopped and you start standing up again. This means you really have to be good at throwing your opponent so they land in such a way that you can work right into a submission.

Chubrock
06-05-2006, 07:37 PM
I should've specified Maki. It's a bit easier to stall Judo throws when using BJJ rules. I'm under the impression that Judo tournaments require you to use certain stances, and issue penalties for using certain "stall" positions.

Maki Riddington
06-06-2006, 06:35 AM
Certain grips are not allowed and yes you can stall in that sense. For example, you can not work a grip on both sides of the gi for more then 6 seconds without performing a move. Otherwise you get penalized.

Luckily for me, where I train we are not so formal so we learn everything. This way I'm not flopping around when I drop in on a BJJ class.

The Great
06-06-2006, 01:19 PM
Karate is over rated, wrestling is the best art for self defense. Most fights and attacks hit the ground and wrestling teaches you the skills you need to defend and over power your opponent. Karate and boxing are good to have knowledge in but not to rely on. Take up wrestling, you will learn a lot and if your in a fight just take it to the ground and you will be fine.

Chubrock
06-06-2006, 01:23 PM
just take it to the ground and you will be fine.


Not really true man. Every fight shouldn't go to the ground. There are plenty of circumstances in which you should avoid taking it to the ground.

The Great
06-06-2006, 01:44 PM
I have never found one, what would be a circumstance?

Chubrock
06-06-2006, 01:49 PM
Bar, crowded street, when it's you by yourself against a couple of guys. You get the idea.

The Great
06-06-2006, 02:42 PM
I have seen and taken many a bar fight to the ground and also in crowded streets. I will give it to you, if you are getting ganged up on taking a fight to the ground won't do to much but your probably screwed in that situation either way (I know there are ways to get out of that situation but lets face it not alot of people can).

Bam
06-06-2006, 04:42 PM
Karote and stuff are good stuff to know but bar fights dont actually involve kicks and stuff usally its real upclose face to face and rolling on the ground.

Wrestling will teach you how to take someone down and make it so they cant punch you while there on the ground.

Maki Riddington
06-06-2006, 04:47 PM
As much as ground work is something that is important, knowing how to receive and give a punch is a prerequisite to going the distance in any type of fight.

Judo, bjj, wrestling, sambo are not going to be as effective if you've never learned how to defend against someone who is coming at you or knows how to use their hands.

jdeity
06-06-2006, 05:09 PM
i was a very advanced wrestler adn can strike well from practicing boxing. in my experiences these are an unstoppable combination (assuming it's a 1 on 1). i can strike very well on my feet, and if it goes to the ground, even better :)

KingJustin
06-06-2006, 05:33 PM
i was a very advanced wrestler adn can strike well from practicing boxing. in my experiences these are an unstoppable combination (assuming it's a 1 on 1). i can strike very well on my feet, and if it goes to the ground, even better :)
I still thinkthat BJJ is a lot better than wrestling once it reaches the ground ...

The Great
06-06-2006, 07:03 PM
Maki Riddington: Your right they are good skills to know but you still need that wrestling because Martial arts arnt that effective in bar fights but they do teach you some valuable skills. Now getting punched is a skill that you either have or don't. You can learn a little bit and build up a tolerance but a lot of it has to do with how your body deals with pain.

King justin: I think Matt Hughes just settled that debate granted that was just one fight but they are both masters of their skill and BJJ didn't stand up to wrestling.

Chubrock
06-06-2006, 07:35 PM
Maki Riddington: Your right they are good skills to know but you still need that wrestling because Martial arts arnt that effective in bar fights but they do teach you some valuable skills. Now getting punched is a skill that you either have or don't. You can learn a little bit and build up a tolerance but a lot of it has to do with how your body deals with pain.

King justin: I think Matt Hughes just settled that debate granted that was just one fight but they are both masters of their skill and BJJ didn't stand up to wrestling.


Hate to tell you bro, but just because of one fight in which one fighter was head and shoulders a better athlete than the other, who knew the techniques the other was using, doens't make something better than the other. What did BJ Penn beat Hughes with....RNC. That doesn't make BJJ necessarily better than wrestling, as the both teach two different things. Wrestling drills top control while BJJ teaches you how to handle yourself from all aspects of the ground. To make a statement like you did shows a flaw in your assessment of fights and different areas of fighting.

Chubrock
06-06-2006, 07:40 PM
As much as ground work is something that is important, knowing how to receive and give a punch is a prerequisite to going the distance in any type of fight.




I agree that knowing some standup is def. something that is needed. I do however, as well as most of the guys I know, feel that learning to survive on the ground is something that people should first learn. All humans to some degree have striking programmed into their brain. Put two toddlers together, and after awhile, one will hit the other. The ability to remain calm and smart while on the ground, however, isn't something most people know how to do. That's one reason I recommend learning to survive on the ground (worst case scenario) first.

Maki Riddington
06-06-2006, 08:11 PM
but you still need that wrestling because Martial arts arnt that effective in bar fights but they do teach you some valuable skills.
.

Judo, BJJ and Sambo all have a "wrestling" component attached to them.


I do however, as well as most of the guys I know, feel that learning to survive on the ground is something that people should first learn.

I agree with you. However just because someone knows how to work the ground does not mean they know how take a sacrifice punch in order to get into a position where they can pull their opponent to the ground and start on them.

I guess from doing this MMA training I can see that when you add in a striking component (hands, legs) things get pretty tricky and grappling alone may not suffice.

The Great
06-06-2006, 08:14 PM
Hate to tell you bro, but just because of one fight in which one fighter was head and shoulders a better athlete than the other, who knew the techniques the other was using, doens't make something better than the other. What did BJ Penn beat Hughes with....RNC. That doesn't make BJJ necessarily better than wrestling, as the both teach two different things. Wrestling drills top control while BJJ teaches you how to handle yourself from all aspects of the ground. To make a statement like you did shows a flaw in your assessment of fights and different areas of fighting.

There was no flaw, It was a total domination. I do under stand that one fight doesn't prove all but the fact that they are both the best at their style and one clearly over powered the other says a lot. It would have been one thing if it was a good even fight and one got lucky but it wasn't. Hughes kept control and over powered Gracie for almost the entire fight.

To say one was a better athlete than the other is wrong. Gracie has kept in training all these years, just because he hasn't been fighting in the UFC doesn't mean he hasn't been competing. Gracie fought in Pride and K-1. The competitors were well matched which is why it was such an anticipated fight. It was just a matter of whose style was stronger.

Chubrock
06-06-2006, 08:21 PM
I guess from doing this MMA training I can see that when you add in a striking component (hands, legs) things get pretty tricky and grappling alone may not suffice.



Oh I def. agree with you Maki. Once striking becomes involved, things go to hell quickly. I'm just saying that things usually turn into a big cluster**** pretty early on, and one thing leads to another, and somebody grabs ahold and falls on top of somebody else.

Chubrock
06-06-2006, 08:24 PM
There was no flaw, It was a total domination. I do under stand that one fight doesn't prove all but the fact that they are both the best at their style and one clearly over powered the other says a lot. It would have been one thing if it was a good even fight and one got lucky but it wasn't. Hughes kept control and over powered Gracie for almost the entire fight.

To say one was a better athlete than the other is wrong. Gracie has kept in training all these years, just because he hasn't been fighting in the UFC doesn't mean he hasn't been competing. Gracie fought in Pride and K-1. The competitors were well matched which is why it was such an anticipated fight. It was just a matter of whose style was stronger.



I highly disagree with you. These are no longer times of people knowing just one art or skill. You don't think Hughes knows A LOT of BJJ or submission grappling? You'd be a fool to think that. The reason Gracie won so much in the past, is that nobody knew his ****. Now everybody (who's anybody) studies submissions. Hughes knew everything Gracie would try to do, and he knew how to work around that.


How can you say that Hughes isn't a better athlete. He's head and shoulders above Gracie. He's much much stronger, more explosive, has better conditioning to match his style, and is just all around faster than Gracie.

The Great
06-06-2006, 09:33 PM
Aside from the arm bar, Hughes used ground and pound which is a wrestlers move. True Hughes was stronger but they were equally conditioned and just as skilled Gracie also has a great stand up as well as his BJJ. The reason Gracie won so many fights in the past is because he never fought people his own size. A larger man such as Kimo is easy to submit. They are not as nimble, making it harder for them to wiggle out of a submission. Nor did they have the same levels of conditioning as Gracie. That is why Gracie won so many fights although it did help that no one knew about BJJ. BJJ's reputation is not for its excellence, it is mearly a fluke that was introduced at the right time against the right opponents. BJJ is a novelty, its (expletory deleted) clown shoes.

mesayseo
06-06-2006, 09:58 PM
seriously take up wrestling i know alot of people say its gay but if they are looking at it that way theyre gay. this sport is not for the weak only the strong survive besides even if you never use it in a fight then at least it will get you into the best shape you have probably ever been in.

Oh yeah before anyone bags me on my grammar its summer and yes thats right now the stupid switch is flipped on.

Chubrock
06-07-2006, 05:43 AM
Aside from the arm bar, Hughes used ground and pound which is a wrestlers move. True Hughes was stronger but they were equally conditioned and just as skilled Gracie also has a great stand up as well as his BJJ. The reason Gracie won so many fights in the past is because he never fought people his own size. A larger man such as Kimo is easy to submit. They are not as nimble, making it harder for them to wiggle out of a submission. Nor did they have the same levels of conditioning as Gracie. That is why Gracie won so many fights although it did help that no one knew about BJJ. BJJ's reputation is not for its excellence, it is mearly a fluke that was introduced at the right time against the right opponents. BJJ is a novelty, its (expletory deleted) clown shoes.



I have nothing else to say to you. This post shows your ignorance to any and all things MMA, or martial art related.

Natetaco
06-07-2006, 06:44 AM
boxing or kickboxing>karate. As far as the whole wrestling thing, I wrestle for my school and I do believe this would definatly help out in a street fight and whatnot. Like people have said a lot of fights usually go to the ground and if your skilled and you have them on the ground, they arnt getting back up. Id say do wrestling and boxing.

jdeity
06-07-2006, 09:28 AM
this sport is not for the weak only the strong survive besides even if you never use it in a fight then at least it will get you into the best shape you have probably ever been in.

:nod:

KingJustin
06-07-2006, 11:56 AM
I have nothing else to say to you. This post shows your ignorance to any and all things MMA, or martial art related.
Haha.

Maki Riddington
06-07-2006, 01:54 PM
I have nothing else to say to you. This post shows your ignorance to any and all things MMA, or martial art related.

I agree with you. Gracie was great but now it's time to pass the torch.

charles_316
06-10-2006, 09:52 PM
i never thought this thread would last this long...

pleasant surprise... keep the opinions goin guys!

enigm@tic
06-10-2006, 10:39 PM
Karate for a beginner can not be used on the street.. boxing is alot better man learn how to punch and all the basics first. Your better off knowing how to fight and never need to use it rather than needing to fight and not knowing how to.

Bam
06-11-2006, 06:56 PM
personally i would love to see gracie fight matt again i would still go with gracie even know he lost the first fight.

gracie 10 years ago would have probally taken care of matt easly.

KingJustin
06-11-2006, 07:05 PM
personally i would love to see gracie fight matt again i would still go with gracie even know he lost the first fight.

gracie 10 years ago would have probally taken care of matt easly.
No way.

charles_316
06-11-2006, 07:21 PM
i dont think so either... matt hughes is crazy... isnt he only 5'8" ?

MantiXX
06-13-2006, 06:18 PM
As for the Matt/Gracie match up, Matts level of BJJ skill is definitely WAY below Royce's however, all matt did was maintain a tight contact on royce in side control. If matt doesn't attempt anything crazy (and thereby create room), royce is F'd. ie a standstill... Simple bjj stuff... You cant attack if there is nothing to attack.

Now Matt on the other hand is an animal strength wise and waited until royce made a mistake (or 2) and pounced on his back.. Then the ole pounding started... Which we work by 'mounting' a heavy bag (sounds kinda kinky..LOL), and practice hooks and Ground and pound... Works the back/side muscles TOTALLY differently...

Also, I can show alot of you think 'wrestling/bjj/muay thai etc" is the best, but I know some basic KARATE guys that would OWN you.. (and me)... These guys live, eat and SH.T this stuff and are as hard as nails (standing and on the ground - You would be surprised how many traditional arts actually do teach small joint manipulation, which the UFC/Pride forbid unfortunately) - (one guy in my club was starting a choke and I hooked 2 fingers (when I first started) and was about to 'leverage' them and was told you cant do that) Its easy to escape a choke, but he'll end up with broken fingers/hand in the process.

To the OP, how much time are you willing to devote to studying boxing? Wrestling? Are you willing to endure the years of shots the melon, sprains, bruises, (especially the ego - its a biatch to get your AZZ handed to you the first time...LOL - but I think we ALL NEED that)...

Its a personal thing and to be honest, go with what your gut tells you and odds are, you'll move from art to art over the years anyways...

Good luck....

Peace out..

charles_316
06-13-2006, 08:09 PM
im willing to devote as much time as possible into improving my self-defense and grappling skills, etc... i kno it takes years and years of experience... and i kno ill get my ass kicked at the beginning... but that will be for the better... and so that i can protect my ass for later

KingJustin
06-13-2006, 09:55 PM
If Karate guys are so great, why was it that Royce Gracie, who isn't really in very good shape and isn't even a true mixed-martial-artist, able to destroy them all when he first started (this is when small-joint manipulation was allowed)?

Why isn't karate a style that any UFC fighters today care at all about?

The guy that was voted the best karate fighter of all time is my kickboxing coach and he always makes fun of how they don't know how to throw punches and so forth.
http://www.fightingmaster.com/legends/lewis/joe_lewis.htm

I just don't buy the fact that karate is helpful at all. I'm not saying that ground fighting is be-all-end-all (I think boxing is great if you have good experience in takedown defense), but I don't know of anything that karate teaches that people can actually use in a real fight that other martial arts don't teach.

MantiXX
06-14-2006, 02:37 PM
If Karate guys are so great, why was it that Royce Gracie, who isn't really in very good shape and isn't even a true mixed-martial-artist, able to destroy them all when he first started (this is when small-joint manipulation was allowed)?

Why isn't karate a style that any UFC fighters today care at all about?

The guy that was voted the best karate fighter of all time is my kickboxing coach and he always makes fun of how they don't know how to throw punches and so forth.
http://www.fightingmaster.com/legends/lewis/joe_lewis.htm

I just don't buy the fact that karate is helpful at all. I'm not saying that ground fighting is be-all-end-all (I think boxing is great if you have good experience in takedown defense), but I don't know of anything that karate teaches that people can actually use in a real fight that other martial arts don't teach.

Yes, Joe lewis is great for the 'Kickboxing' he has fought in, but that was against other 'kickboxers', Jean Eves, Superfoot wallace, etc etc...

As for the gracies, there are a TON of rumors around about them PICKING their first opponents (who was allowed into the first UFC's There were 1000's of people vying for spots - which I think may have some merit, Ever wonder why there were never any collegiate wrestlers/grapplers in the first UFC's? Always boxers/karate guys? - seems fishy to me and alot of others, but we'll never know). I've got an old 'gracie' tape (Black/white) that has one of them choking out a large black boxer, who reaches behind to do an eye gouge and was stopped before he did damage.. He was choked out, but to me HE won.. See, in a REAL fight, there is Eye gouging, groin shots, BITING, etc etc.. and no one to stop it... Never discount anyone or anything...

Again, its all about the time /effort devoted by each of us. Remember that studying 'karate' doesn't only mean doing kata, single techniques, or point fighting. It can and DOES mean HARD, no glove fighting that involves GROUND fighting, weight/strength training etc etc...

Think about this, in China/Japan/Okinawa/Wherever, no one ever took a fight to the ground over the last 1000 years until the GRACIES came along?...LOL.. I dont think so... They just want everyone to THINK that, cause its all about the $$$$$$$$$$$... They've got an EMPIRE of schools... The funny part (and it was written in 'Grappling' magazine), is that the submissions are BECOMING OBSOLETE, since most people know them now and even if they aren't that good at them, they know what they are, and how to negate them, so MOST if not all matches will become striking matches (which we see happening in the last few years - UFC/PRIDE - MOST matches are being decided by the striking/knees/ko's..)...

Most North americans are too soft to do the 'true' old style karate/fighting and like the "Take your dough flashy kicks" or go to 2/3 classes a week and think they are tough...

Anyways, rant off...LOL....

Peace out...

Detard
06-14-2006, 06:01 PM
i have a bunch of buddies that just go around looking for fights. the best way to survive a fight is to gain experience. all these guys are pretty nice guys if your friends with them and will back you up anyday. if your getting ganged up on then just run. you dont have much chance of beating a bunch of guys. (unless your mike vallely http://www.goyk.com/video.asp?path=594)

DokterVet
06-14-2006, 09:23 PM
The funny part (and it was written in 'Grappling' magazine), is that the submissions are BECOMING OBSOLETE, since most people know them now and even if they aren't that good at them, they know what they are, and how to negate them, so MOST if not all matches will become striking matches (which we see happening in the last few years - UFC/PRIDE - MOST matches are being decided by the striking/knees/ko's..)...


That has a to do with both the fact that people are cross-training more, and the development of the sprawl 'n brawl fighter, but also the fact that the rules of UFC and Pride have been tweaked in favour of striking. (stand-ups, gloves, etc)

MantiXX
06-15-2006, 05:02 AM
That has a to do with both the fact that people are cross-training more, and the development of the sprawl 'n brawl fighter, but also the fact that the rules of UFC and Pride have been tweaked in favour of striking. (stand-ups, gloves, etc)

I was trying to show how most of the weight class champs are strikers now (liddell, Fedor etc).... I think most of the strikers DO stand back up anyways, and KNOW not to sit in someones 'guard' (which is a great way to get your ba.lls crushed in a REAL fight)..

Cool.. are you in Ontario Canada, or California?..

Detard (love the name)... Yeh, if you've grown up in some real ghetto areas, there are some REAL tough people who can not only take it, but dish it out very well.. Just look at some of the older Russian cage style matches (even today, their cage matches (which I have literally hundreds of on dvd ;) ) they have NO protection - no gloves, no mouthpiece, no CUP and its usually decided by pounding elbows into someones mellon..

Peace out...

charles_316
06-15-2006, 12:09 PM
i have a bunch of buddies that just go around looking for fights. the best way to survive a fight is to gain experience. all these guys are pretty nice guys if your friends with them and will back you up anyday. if your getting ganged up on then just run. you dont have much chance of beating a bunch of guys. (unless your mike vallely http://www.goyk.com/video.asp?path=594)

nice video... that guy is crazy!

Bam
06-15-2006, 02:52 PM
that mike guy was on viva la bam

KingJustin
06-15-2006, 04:32 PM
Yes, Joe lewis is great for the 'Kickboxing' he has fought in, but that was against other 'kickboxers', Jean Eves, Superfoot wallace, etc etc...
Well, the point was that he was voted the 'Greatest Karate Fighter of All Time' and he makes fun of karate fighters and teaches just straight kickboxing ...



As for the gracies, there are a TON of rumors around about them PICKING their first opponents (who was allowed into the first UFC's There were 1000's of people vying for spots - which I think may have some merit, Ever wonder why there were never any collegiate wrestlers/grapplers in the first UFC's? Always boxers/karate guys?
What about Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn?
Based on how poorly Matt (from UF3) performed on the ground, I am not buying the fact that wrestling really compares to jiu-jitsu in real fighting. Also, the point at any rate was that karate is really lacking in ground-fighting, and it was clear enough since the best karate fighters got crushed by Gracie rather quickly.



See, in a REAL fight, there is Eye gouging, groin shots, BITING, etc etc.. and no one to stop it... Never discount anyone or anything...
Well, in the first UFC's, there were no rules. You were allowed to bite, kick in the nuts, etc, and it wasn't a problem for Gracie. Also, imo, there's a difference between a "self-defense" fight, and a "contest" fight. In a contest fight, something like kicking in the nuts is just cheap.



Again, its all about the time /effort devoted by each of us. Remember that studying 'karate' doesn't only mean doing kata, single techniques, or point fighting. It can and DOES mean HARD, no glove fighting that involves GROUND fighting, weight/strength training etc etc...

Think about this, in China/Japan/Okinawa/Wherever, no one ever took a fight to the ground over the last 1000 years until the GRACIES came along?...LOL.. I dont think so... They just want everyone to THINK that, cause its all about the $$$$$$$$$$$...
Well, whatever. The point was that karate, as it is taught in the US and as you can learn in various karate institutions, is pretty much worthless in relation to to oher styles of fighting.

Also, to be clear, I don't think BJJ is the only fighting style wroth learning. I think true mixed martial arts is the best way to go.

Detard
06-15-2006, 04:35 PM
that mike guy was on viva la bam

yep, hes a pro skater. pretty big guy. hes oldschool though

MantiXX
06-15-2006, 05:51 PM
KingJustin....

I agree Exactly... There are a TON of bull karate instructors/studios out there... I would wager that there are more then there are good instructors....

As for the first UFC's and such, I still think the people in it weren't exactly the cream of the crop... But hey, thats just me..:help:

Anyways, this has been interesting none the less...:thumbup:

Peace out....

Oh, and OP, good luck and no matter what you do, WORK hard at whatever you decide..

charles_316
06-15-2006, 06:57 PM
KingJustin....

I agree Exactly... There are a TON of bull karate instructors/studios out there... I would wager that there are more then there are good instructors....

As for the first UFC's and such, I still think the people in it weren't exactly the cream of the crop... But hey, thats just me..:help:

Anyways, this has been interesting none the less...:thumbup:

Peace out....

Oh, and OP, good luck and no matter what you do, WORK hard at whatever you decide..

thanks! i definately will! this thread has been very interesting... thanks to all... keep it goin :P

ReDo
06-22-2006, 11:36 PM
I've been in my share of physical altercations in my life and 90% of the ones that escalate beyond pushing and shoving end up on the ground. I have a boxing background (high school) with some wrestling (junior high) and I will say I appreciate the skills and maneuvers learned in wrestling versus anything I acquired from my boxing days.

Unless you are the aggressor I don't think boxing wil serve you well. Sure you get good hand-eye-coordination and parry and dodging skils but no one is going to stand toe-to-toe with you and let you pick them off. Take them down and choke them out and know how to move while on the ground if you want to protect yourself assuming an altercation is unavoidable.

So I will corroborate and concur those stating bjj is the most beneficial. Once you have them on the ground and in control hitting just comes naturally. You don't need to "learn" to box for that.

Sensei
06-22-2006, 11:43 PM
To say one was a better athlete than the other is wrong. Gracie has kept in training all these years, just because he hasn't been fighting in the UFC doesn't mean he hasn't been competing. Gracie fought in Pride and K-1. The competitors were well matched which is why it was such an anticipated fight. It was just a matter of whose style was stronger.You are TOTALLY off on this. Joyce is way past his prime.

KingJustin
06-23-2006, 03:50 PM
Redo,

I still think being well-rounded is the best. Take someone like Chuck Liddell, for example. How many times have you seen him on the ground? If you are a really good boxer and can't do anything else (ie avoid takedowns), then you are probably screwed. But, if you can at least protect against takedowns, then boxing is very beneficial.

Detard
06-23-2006, 06:46 PM
well heres my latest story about street fights.

last night me and all my buddies were at a park party. everyone was drunk and alot of people were walking around like they owned the place(it was at my old school) one of the guys walked straight into my buddy who turned around and pushed the guy back. the guys buddies backed him up, so i backed up my friend. someone pushed someone and the rest of the guys i was with just started fighting whoever was around. the original guy that started it got thrown to the ground and kicked a few times then got up and ran away. cops came, a few people got booked but nobody got seriously hurt(only punches and kicks and knees where thrown, not knives or guns)

so yes, most fights do go to the ground and alot of fights are a group vs another group

CODmasterJYK
06-23-2006, 08:29 PM
Hmmm... you know what, why you guys have to learn how to fight? Is it cuz u got somebody giving you beef or something? If that's not the case, be peaceful. Plus, most of the martial arts I've taken have philosophies of being peaceful behind it.

But here's my opinion on the best combo of martial arts. Brazillian Jiujitsu is the first, cuz that's the best for 1 on 1 fighting. But it's horrible when you're fighting more than 1 person. But that's where the Muay Thai comes in. It's good long range fighting and the sparring rules are so brutal that muay thai sparring is almost like being in a real fight. I mean ya, Muay Thai isn't so good when you're on the ground (where most fights end up), but hey... that's what the Brazillian Jiu Jitsu's for. But for the first couple of minutes you and your enemy's standing up, you could do a lot of ****in damage with muay thai. Also that Israeli martial art Krav manga is really good. The problem with that is it has a lot of pussy moves like ripping someone's balls out and ****.

Hey, maybe also Hapkido. They've got good joint-locking techniques.

Detard
06-23-2006, 10:44 PM
I mean ya, Muay Thai isn't so good when you're on the ground (where most fights end up), but hey... that's what the Brazillian Jiu Jitsu's for. But for the first couple of minutes you and your enemy's standing up, you could do a lot of ****in damage with muay thai.

minutes??? most street fights end within the first minute. i can understand if your using that as an example but most fights really dont last long.

CODmasterJYK
06-28-2006, 04:01 PM
minutes??? most street fights end within the first minute. i can understand if your using that as an example but most fights really dont last long.

ya I know. Muay thai could instantly end a fight before it even gets to the ground (knocking the guy out). But if it does end up on the ground, then use Brazillian Jiujitsu. Doesn't really matter if da fight is longer than a minute or not, even though most fights are really short.

wdjuqi
06-28-2006, 04:39 PM
Hmmm... you know what, why you guys have to learn how to fight? Is it cuz u got somebody giving you beef or something? If that's not the case, be peaceful. Plus, most of the martial arts I've taken have philosophies of being peaceful behind it.



I'd say it's more of a protective factor. I hope so at least. It's really dumb to learn bjj, boxing, muay tai, etc. to just go out and pick on innocent people. However, learning mma to take care of yourself IF something would ever happen that you have no control over is a different story. What if you were at the mall and some kid started **** with you? What if you have a wife and kids in the future and someone breaks into your house attempting to kill/rape? Like someone else said, it's A LOT better to have fighting skills you'll never use in life than having to fight and not knowing what to do.

Check out the videos on this site. Scary to think about, but there are people out there like the ones on this site. These days, it'd be very wise to learn how to defend yourself.
http://thatvideosite.com/14-1-1-0-0-0.html

The title of this video explains it clearly. This skateboarder really, really deserves to get dropped. I didn't watch the whole thing, I turned it off at the warning message. No idea if he does get his ass kicked.
http://thatvideosite.com/view/881.html

John04Civic
06-28-2006, 05:38 PM
Ok the best self defense is to avoid fights period. This means avoiding bad neighborhoods and trying not to piss people off in volatile situations. Being in large groups with friends who will help is also good.

That being said to me the most effective combat style self defense is a style all on its own. It would involve practicing eye gouging, head butts, throat strikes, and small joint manipulation. If you can practice this stuff with a live resisting opponent (preferably heavily padded) you will be fine.

MMA is an acronym for mixed martial arts. MMA is a sport which is probably as close to a street fight as any sport will ever be. MMA fights allow anything except for certain strikes on downed opponents, headbutts, using fingers in opponents orifices, biting, and small joint manipulation. MMA tends to be a combination of wrestling, Muay Thai, and BJJ.

A few years ago you couldn't really find MMA classes, and each of the styles above was taught seperately and it was up to the person to combine them. Now they're starting to teach MMA classes. MMA is probably best sport oriented self defense you can learn.
I agree totally. MMA = realistic as it gets!

DokterVet
06-28-2006, 08:53 PM
I was trying to show how most of the weight class champs are strikers now (liddell, Fedor etc).... I think most of the strikers DO stand back up anyways, and KNOW not to sit in someones 'guard' (which is a great way to get your ba.lls crushed in a REAL fight)..

Cool.. are you in Ontario Canada, or California?..


I don't know if I would call Fedor a striker, but in general, yeah there are a lot of guys striking their way to the top these days.

I'm from Ontario, Canada. I didn't know there was an Ontario, California.

bigleaguechu
06-30-2006, 10:45 PM
just a quick brief on my backround,
I have been practicing martial arts for 15 years.
I'm a 3rd degree black belt in Chung do kwan style of Tae Kwon Do
my master is a 9th degree grand master, one of the very very few outside Korea. I was an instructor for 2-3 years.
Others styles that I have practiced
Tiger and Crane Kung Fu(still use it sometimes in sparring for fun)
Goju Ryu
Capoeira(still practice)
Muai Thai kick boxing(I use its style of kicks all the time for sparring)
Boxing(still practice)
Hapkido(korea pressure points and joint locks)
and I can wrestle as well. I was sparring against a MMA/UFC type last week who out weighed me by 35 pounds. And I still won.

My point? I love TKD it will always be my favorite, I have fought many others in tournaments other styles, against wrestlers, grappler it works for me, and its designed to work when you are standing up. Most people talk trash about how kicks are ineffective, well tell that to the many guys ribs who I broke, and I have even dropped someones shoulder. 80% of the schools out there do not teach well. They show what they are doing, but people are not learning. Just not a lot of great teachers out there. Back on point boxing is good too, however its not great against a kicker. Grappling jiu jitsu is also very useful, however its usually more of a power/endurance struggle rather than a tactiful stryke. I know a few different arts and am able to switch from one style to another when its necessary. However "best" self defense techniques/art is more personal. Not everything will work for everyone. So there is not universal art for everyone. Every art has a philosophy in mind, as long as you exercise common sense and rehearse possible scenarios in your head it will help you when the situation arises despite the art.

bigleaguechu
06-30-2006, 10:59 PM
Yes, Joe lewis is great for the 'Kickboxing' he has fought in, but that was against other 'kickboxers', Jean Eves, Superfoot wallace, etc etc...

As for the gracies, there are a TON of rumors around about them PICKING their first opponents (who was allowed into the first UFC's There were 1000's of people vying for spots - which I think may have some merit, Ever wonder why there were never any collegiate wrestlers/grapplers in the first UFC's? Always boxers/karate guys? - seems fishy to me and alot of others, but we'll never know). I've got an old 'gracie' tape (Black/white) that has one of them choking out a large black boxer, who reaches behind to do an eye gouge and was stopped before he did damage.. He was choked out, but to me HE won.. See, in a REAL fight, there is Eye gouging, groin shots, BITING, etc etc.. and no one to stop it... Never discount anyone or anything...

Again, its all about the time /effort devoted by each of us. Remember that studying 'karate' doesn't only mean doing kata, single techniques, or point fighting. It can and DOES mean HARD, no glove fighting that involves GROUND fighting, weight/strength training etc etc...

Think about this, in China/Japan/Okinawa/Wherever, no one ever took a fight to the ground over the last 1000 years until the GRACIES came along?...LOL.. I dont think so... They just want everyone to THINK that, cause its all about the $$$$$$$$$$$... They've got an EMPIRE of schools... The funny part (and it was written in 'Grappling' magazine), is that the submissions are BECOMING OBSOLETE, since most people know them now and even if they aren't that good at them, they know what they are, and how to negate them, so MOST if not all matches will become striking matches (which we see happening in the last few years - UFC/PRIDE - MOST matches are being decided by the striking/knees/ko's..)...

Most North americans are too soft to do the 'true' old style karate/fighting and like the "Take your dough flashy kicks" or go to 2/3 classes a week and think they are tough...

Anyways, rant off...LOL....

Peace out...

you make many good points, most americans are doughy are can not go toe to toe with real training
UFC today has become more of a stryking, many many kicks to the knees
and also just because the Gracies came along with their grappling doesn't mean that is the new revolutionary way of fighting over karate
both arts comr from different regions,cultures, and also people have different genetics. Skinny shorter people that need to keep their distances, rather than bulkier stockier brazilians where they can take a punch or a kick more and probably prefer to fight on the ground. I prefer TKD, I know how to use it, and have proved it to many that has dispute kicking as useless. What does that mean? Nothing really just that I can use TKD and I like it, I'm comfortable with it. That doesn't mean that its the same for everyone else. You gotta find what your strengths are, are you flexible? are you strong? do you like kicking? punching? grappling?

MantiXX
07-04-2006, 11:51 AM
I don't know if I would call Fedor a striker, but in general, yeah there are a lot of guys striking their way to the top these days.

I'm from Ontario, Canada. I didn't know there was an Ontario, California.

Just curious.... Me too....

turkey sandwich
08-05-2006, 01:18 AM
I'll agree with statements about body type effecting how one adapts to specific arts, but your description of Brazilians is very much wrong. Probably the majority Brazilian jiu-jitsu guys (especially successful ones) are lankier. While bulkiness aids wrestling, it doesn't necessarily help the jiu-jitsu practicioner as much because longer, thinner legs actually facilitate control and technique far greater than shorter, more muscular ones. Also, while I respect TKD tremendously, I view it largely as a sport and not necessarily as a preferable means of self defense. Infact, I lean against virtually any style that works around a striking/point system as it absolutely fails to deal with the reality of a fight. Please don't get angry, I am a fan of striking arts (primarily muay thai and boxing), but it is necessary to understand what is functional as sport and what is functional for defense realistically.

Also, the quote mentioned regarding grappling magazine is actually a randy couture quote who, oddly enough, won his next fight by means of anaconda choke. Submissions aren't really becoming obsolete so much as people are adjusting and stalling in the guard or keeping a tight closed guard for the sake of defense. Also the UFC promotes excitement and even offers fighters cash bonuses for the most action or biggest knockout per event. And the UFC does a lot actually to promote B level fighters that typically going to throw 10,000 punches and make things exciting. (they get away paying fighters a lot less to be sloppy and throw nonstop without any real tact, look at griffin/bonner... and to show an example of one of those guys meeting someone who could throw and getting owned, check out anderson silva destroying chris lebben)...

Further, it's realistic to address the likelihood that a fight is probably going to end up on the ground, or at least in some form of clinch. Knowing how to deal with that situation is vital. A little wrestling, bjj, muay thai or dirty boxing goes a long way.


whew, sorry to keep going so long, and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone (didn't mean to), but there are just certain realities that some people still don't address.

Dinosaur
08-05-2006, 09:20 PM
what's the best discipline to learn for self-defense? obviously, it is best to have a mix of everything but if you were to choose only one or one to begin with... would it be boxing, karate, jiu jitsu, etc?

jus curious cuz i wanna start one of these...

I've done both boxing and karate (moreso boxing), and I would say for about 95% of the time I'd choose boxing. The last 5% is if you're fortunate enough to find a good karate style that does spar full-contact. I train in Kyokushin Karate and I can guarantee someone skilled in Kyokushin will do well in a streetfight, since we spar hard and without protective gear.

MantiXX
08-08-2006, 12:34 PM
Been away a while...LOL...

Another thing most people are forgetting about is that most if not all traditional martial arts were designed to save your life and KILL the other person who was most likely ARMED.

Most of the bodyguards/escorts way back when (or warriors) were ARMED and THATS where Karate/Kung-fu/Escrima etc etc came from. YOU DID NOT GRAPPLE with your opponent(s), since you would be sliced up real quickly by them or part of their GROUP. ie you STAYED on your feet or you NEVER got back up.

One on one in 'todays civilized' society, its severly frowned on carrying blades and gutting people. Way back when they carried swords, knives and spears ALL the time.

Of course a wrestler/JJ person will beat a basic striker. Its been known for 100 years (ever since boxing's been around, there have been a zillion matches where the wrestler has owned the boxer). Look up Tony Ceccine and 'hook wrestling'. A dirty form of wrestling used in side shows/carney's for a long time. They would take on all challengers and destroy them.

Also remember that the Mundial/Gracie/Arnold events etc DO NOT ALLOW small joint maninpulations, which can and DO make a difference... (or my favorite, rip an ear off... actually had to once and thank GOD I did, probably saved my life - but thats for another day..)...

Anyways, interesting thread none the less.....

Peace out....

bloodninja
08-11-2006, 08:31 PM
Tony Cecchine is a con artist.

Dinosaur
08-12-2006, 06:17 PM
Of course a wrestler/JJ person will beat a basic striker. Its been known for 100 years (ever since boxing's been around, there have been a zillion matches where the wrestler has owned the boxer).

Actually, of all the boxer-wrestler matches from the past several decades, it's been a pretty even split. Either the boxer managed to land a knockout punch or the wrestler managed to defeat the boxer. It's never really been one-sided.

Kenshi
08-13-2006, 01:03 AM
Given my handle, I figure I should say something.

The Art I train in is called Ryukyu-Kmepo Tomari-Te.

It is a form of Karate-jitsu(empty hand fighting) that is unique in that it has a strict focus on nerve-striking. Thus, all one needs to do is practice their techniques and refine accuracy to be proficent in them. Pressure-points, or the nerve striking aspects, do not require force to activate, you simply need to know how, and how to work that activation into your technique. You can easily daze or knock someone unconcious with little effort once you become proficient in the art, or at bare minimum get the guy off you.

Another thing that makes us unique, is that we incorparate several other arts inot what we train(small-circle jujuitsu and Wei Kuen Do boxing) so that one can handle themsleves from all distances. Many arts train only for one distance, or form the "on-guard" postion. For us, the fight starts the moment they grab/push/stand in our face/poke at us/etc., thus most often we can end a confrontation before it gets to the "on-guard" position.

Very few fights "start" with both sides looking each other in the eye and then jumping back with their hands up. Most start from somebody calling someone else a name, or otherwise getting in their face, first. Few people think of this stage as part of the "fight", so they miss an excellent opportunity to end the whole confrontation right there, before anyone's hands even need ot go up. It usually works much better at that place anyhow, sinec the other guy still thinks he's in control, and techniques are easier to perfomr since he's not bobbing or weaving or guarding yet. Of course, we also have a variety of techniques for if the situation does progress ot that level, or the ground, or getting locked-up, etc. It's very much influenced by Bruce Lee's ideas of being able to use all one's tools to just fight well, as oppsoed to fight well in situation "X". Taking into account all possible distances can go great lengths to stopping the guy before anyone gets hurt, namely yourself.

So that's my first pick, if you can find a place that teaches that.

Next in line would be Jeet Kune Do. Great Art. If you can actually find a places that teaches it, though. Dig around and you might get lucky.

Next, would be Aikijutsu, or various schools of Jujitsu.

Boxing is okay, but it is very limited in self-defense, since self-defense happens out of the ring. Out of the ring, we must use our feet, our grappling skills, ground-fighting skills, and even our teeth at times. Boxing only coveres our hands, and only at a couple of distances. If you learned Boxing and something like Jujitsu at the same time though, then you would be pretty good. Boxing isn't bad, but you have to remeber it is a sport first and foremost, not a martial art.

Avoid Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan, and karate-do schools. Those arts have basically turned into tournament sports, and have little to do with real fighting anymore. I can kill most of my Tae-Kwon Do/Shotokan friends with little to no effort, and I'm a skinny lanky kid who isn't good at free-sparring.

Also, if you find a place that says they do "genuine" Kung-Fu or Tai-Chi Chuan, be wary. Thos arts were killed by the Chinese government about fifty odd years ago, and have basically tunred into tournament arts, even in their home country. If you find someone teaching you "straight" Kung-Fu, be vary vary wary of them, since you might just be learning anohter tournament art.

Not to say ALL Kung-fu is bad. Some of it is still good. But it is much harder to find a legitamte non-tournament Self-defense Kung-fu school than it is to find the opposite.

Lastly, always research the art fo the place you are looking at, and at least watch a class or two before you join. Regardless of the art's name, there are just some bad places. Smaller, non-commercial dojos are better for self-defense, and you will learn more without being ripped-off.

Oh, and Arnis/Kali/Escrima is good too. In additon to stick/knife fighting, they usually have very good empty-hand cirriculums. Plus, you learn about weapons you can actually use. Might have to tweak the knife fighting a little though.

A lot of it depends on the person, and how serious you want to become.

If you simply want to learn how to better stop the mugger, you will find an art.

If your heart is one of the rare few inclined ot the Way of Strategy, your art will find YOU.

Best of luck, hope it helps.

-Kenshi

Kenshi
08-13-2006, 01:11 AM
Given my handle, I figure I should say something.

The Art I train in is called Ryukyu-Kempo Tomari-Te.

It is a form of Karate-jitsu(empty hand fighting) that is unique in that it has a strict focus on nerve-striking. Thus, all one needs to do is practice their techniques and refine accuracy to be proficent in them. Pressure-points, or the nerve striking aspects, do not require force to activate, you simply need to know how, and how to work that activation into your technique. You can easily daze or knock someone unconcious with little effort once you become proficient in the art, or at bare minimum get the guy off you. A little extra conditioning never hurts either, of course;)

Another thing that makes us unique, is that we incorparate several other arts in to what we train(small-circle jujuitsu and Wei Kuen Do boxing) so that one can handle themsleves from all distances. Many arts train only for one distance, or form the "on-guard" postion. For us, the fight starts the moment they grab/push/stand in our face/poke at us/etc., thus most often we can end a confrontation before it gets to the "on-guard" position.

Very few fights "start" with both sides looking each other in the eye and then jumping back with their hands up. Most start from somebody calling someone else a name, or otherwise getting in their face, first. Few people think of this stage as part of the "fight", so they miss an excellent opportunity to end the whole confrontation right there, before anyone's hands even need ot go up. It usually works much better at that place anyhow, sinec the other guy still thinks he's in control, and techniques are easier to perfomr since he's not bobbing or weaving or guarding yet. Of course, we also have a variety of techniques for if the situation does progress ot that level, or the ground, or getting locked-up, etc. It's very much influenced by Bruce Lee's ideas of being able to use all one's tools to just fight well, as oppsoed to fight well in situation "X". Taking into account all possible distances can go great lengths to stopping the guy before anyone gets hurt, namely yourself.

So that's my first pick, if you can find a place that teaches that.

Next in line would be Jeet Kune Do. Great Art. If you can actually find a places that teaches it, though. Dig around and you might get lucky.

Next, would be Aikijutsu, or various schools of Jujitsu.

Boxing is okay, but it is very limited in self-defense, since self-defense happens out of the ring. Out of the ring, we must use our feet, our grappling skills, ground-fighting skills, and even our teeth at times. Boxing only coveres our hands, and only at a couple of distances. If you learned Boxing and something like Jujitsu at the same time though, then you would be pretty good. Boxing isn't bad, but you have to remeber it is a sport first and foremost, not a martial art.

Avoid Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan, and karate-do schools. Those arts have basically turned into tournament sports, and have little to do with real fighting anymore. I can kill most of my Tae-Kwon Do/Shotokan friends with little to no effort, and I'm a skinny lanky kid who isn't good at free-sparring.

Also, if you find a place that says they do "genuine" Kung-Fu or Tai-Chi Chuan, be wary. Thos arts were killed by the Chinese government about fifty odd years ago, and have basically tunred into tournament arts, even in their home country. If you find someone teaching you "straight" Kung-Fu, be vary vary wary of them, since you might just be learning anohter tournament art.

Not to say ALL Kung-fu is bad. Some of it is still good. But it is much harder to find a legitamte non-tournament Self-defense Kung-fu school than it is to find the opposite.

Lastly, always research the art fo the place you are looking at, and at least watch a class or two before you join. Regardless of the art's name, there are just some bad places. Smaller, non-commercial dojos are better for self-defense, and you will learn more without being ripped-off.

Oh, and Arnis/Kali/Escrima is good too. In additon to stick/knife fighting, they usually have very good empty-hand cirriculums. Plus, you learn about weapons you can actually use. Might have to tweak the knife fighting a little though.

A lot of it depends on the person, and how serious you want to become.

If you simply want to learn how to better stop the mugger, you will find an art.

If your heart is one of the rare few inclined ot the Way of Strategy, your art will find YOU.

Best of luck, hope it helps.

-Kenshi

Dinosaur
08-13-2006, 06:27 AM
^^Just because boxers fight in a ring doesn't necessarily mean they're limited to what they can do in the ring. Boxing gets you well-conditioned, teaches you how to punch and take a punch, controlled aggression, excellent footwork, and defensive skills. Combine that with the dirty tools boxing has (thumbing with the jab, elbows, headbutts, rabbit punches) and you have a terrific striking art.

bloodninja
08-13-2006, 11:40 AM
If I had a dollar for every TKD, karate, or kung fu student that I wrecked...

Detard
08-13-2006, 05:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every TKD, karate, or kung fu student that I wrecked...


:fart:

sharkall2003
08-13-2006, 05:52 PM
:scratch: Jesus christ, your grammer is horrible.

Learn how to capitalize proper nouns.

I have taken street fighting martial arts and looked into boxing. I would say boxing is much more practical street fighting. I learned out to break elbows, snap necks and dislocate shoulders in fights throug SFMA, but I honestly think that it did nothing for me in the fighting scene. All it did was give me a few techniques on how to brutally harm someone. Boxing, however, teaches you to have a lot of control and how to just beat the living crap out of another person.

Kenshi
08-13-2006, 11:07 PM
Oh, sorry for the double post by the way.

True, boxing can show you some nasty things to do outside of the ring if you look into it, but still lack any real grappling/ground-fighting/lower-body skills.

Again, not to say boxing is a negatory self-defense method. However, it is still chiefly a sport. What one might call "pure" boxing, though it may have it's nasty vital-point shots, still relies heavily on fighting from a single postion and a certain way; not unlike most Kung-fu and Karate schools do.

The problem is, most martial arts are in decline. Teaching the old Ryu as they were taught hundreds of years ago isn't a bad thing, but EXACTLY as they were taught, is.

Honestly, the only reason I attribute to the fact that my training is, for lack of a better word, more "rounded" and quite frankly "applicable", is that my sensei was an ex-marine. Thus, he made darn well sure everything we did worked, worked well, and would work well regardless your body type. He also made sure we trained for stress and got a better feel for using our techniques in more uncontrolled situations, as it would be were any of us attacked in the real.

Most schools do not do that, sadly. Again, either they become sport/tournament-oriented and lose their self-defense edge(like the Chinese arts), or they teach in a very rigid manner that does not accomodate what a student might face in this time-period, and not 15th-16th century Japan/China.

Throw commercialization on top of this, and you are looking a shoddy state of affairs of what was and was supposed to be a key layer of Eastern/Human culture.

Being one with a heart inclined ot the Way of Strategy, I am curious to see what will happen to the martial arts in about 5, 10, even 20 years form now.

It may actually end up like the movies, with the aspiring student who truly wants to learn something real seeking out an old-master type running a storefront dojo or teaching out of his basement.


But, to reply to what was mentioned before I got off on a rant, like any art, one should seek training in multiple areas to perform to the best of one's ability.

As mentioned, boxing certianly=good, but you never JUST do boxing, just like you are never supposed to JUST do jujitsu, or karate, or anything else.
No one art ahs it all, so you should train in such a way that you get what you need from what is available to you. Training in boxing to the exclusion of all others is the same as training in karate to the exclusion of all others.

I just happen to like jujitsu/karate a little better than boxing for self-defense when an uninatiated asks me "What should I take?", because again few fights start directly from the "Hands up". Often, there is grabbing, pushing, getting pulled in, finger in the face, standing in you face, etc. that happens first. For a new person, it is usually good, in my opinion, that they start there first and then learn some of the other situations. Also, you do not need ot be as conditioned to torque someone, so for the everyman/everywoman just looking to better stop the mugger and not start some lifetime commitment, it also helps, I think.

But again, that's just me.

As for Mr. Original poster, I still would suggest Jujitsu first(you've probably got the body-type for it by now anyways if you've be body-building for a while, so you can use that) and then probably branc off into something else like karate/boxing if you find yourself taking to the martial arts.

Foggy06
08-20-2006, 12:32 PM
Who would have the advantage in a street fight.A great boxer or a Great kickboxer?

Kenshi
08-22-2006, 08:36 AM
Granted, this thread has almost completely swerves off topic, but hey, why not indulge in a little Q&A while it lasts?

My vote would go for the kickboxer.

See, what would happen is:
They both square off.
They both put their hands up.
Start circling.
Kickboxer taps the boxer in the shin.
Boxer then goes "huh?", being unaccustomed to leg attacks.
Kickboxer then smashes him one in the face for that.


It's like Bruce Lee said: "Prepare for your front, and you back will be weak. Prepare for your right side, and your left side will be weak. Prepare for everything, and everything will be weak."

Rough quote, but you get the idea.

bloodninja
08-22-2006, 05:42 PM
Who would have the advantage in a street fight.A great boxer or a Great kickboxer?

If size/skill/stamina everything like that is close, I vote kickboxer.

The boxer has 2 fists to use, the kickboxer has fists, elbows, knees, and feet.

Foggy06
08-22-2006, 05:56 PM
Yeah i say kickboxer too.

TTT
08-22-2006, 11:19 PM
I have another, related question.
How much is a reasonable amount to be paying to study a martial art? Just an off-the-top-of-the-head figure.... Or, how much is too much?

Kenshi
08-24-2006, 12:26 AM
Tuition can vary greatly school-by-school, it really depends on who's teaching, and to a lesser extent the style.

Most of the variables come from how much in the commercial direction the school is going. The place I went to had tuition at about $60+ dollars a month, on top of a couple hundred at sign-up/re-upping of your contract.
I was an instructor at the same time however, so I got a little discount. ;)

Other places, like the famed much small storefront-types, can depend on whether you pay "By the class", or for the month, or again if it is by contract. Also, styles like Tae Kwon-Do, that are part of a larger organization, usually ask alittle more regardless the size/type of school.
The small storefront type though that are independent of others, I would say charge maybe between $35-$55 a month, maybe a little more, little less.

What it also comes down to as well, is that if the guy is trying to teach for a living, you can bet something a little higher. But, if the guy just does it because he likes it then you'll probably get a price in the lower range, and mostl likely per-week rates. Again, I'm making rough guesses based on my interaction with the human psyche at 1:30 in the morning, so forgive me if this is all scattered-brained.

However, since the smaller dojos(or at least the good ones) are harder to find, expect my figure above for a slightly larger, more established place.

Another thing to keep in mind, is other fees that usually do not make themselves known until you actually have the official sit-down.

I've wanted to join a place that formally teaches Kenjutsu(Japanese Swordfighting) for a while now. KNow what's been holding me up? The $300+ entry fee in the form of a Shinken(traditional Japanese Longsword made for cutting/a little combat) in addition to a new uniform I'd have to buy(which is about $80 total), all on top of whatever the guy charges for classes, be it monthly/weekly/whatever.

More importantly though, make sure give the place a thorough look-over before you decide to join. The worst price to pay is joining a school you later find that you dislike, or that teaches what you are not looking to learn.

Hope that helps.


PS: I'm sensing a MA Q&A section perhaps....

TTT
09-18-2006, 01:35 PM
Cheers for the info :)

Roddy
09-25-2006, 10:39 PM
boxing, its more practical

bill
09-26-2006, 10:48 AM
Billy Blanks videos are the best, along with ACW!!!!!! American Combat Wrestling