Workouts

[Jordanbcool]

I've been wondering. What kind of workouts should be done during and after a cycle? Me and a fellow forum member were talking about it for a while. Im pretty sure its alot.... 20+ reps??? Like when arnold was telling people to do that many sets he forgot to mention that you have to be on steroids to get good gains for that insane amount of sets/reps. Or would someone be able to simply do 3x3 (for compound lifts) and gain a huge amount of strength in a small amount of time.....maybe you can just do a normal routine just with heavier weight? I dunno I'm just at a lose. Also do you have to spend 5-6 days in the gym?? Anyone that could point me in the right direction i'd appreciate it.

-jordan

[WillKuenzel]

Nothing should really change. Maybe intensity, maybe volume. Steriods help with recovery time. You might be able to train a little more often.

In general though, nothing should really change. Your diet and training should be where it needs to be to begin with. I change very little when I'm using, maybe with the exception of doing less active recovery or not taking an extra day of rest here and there.

When off, I'll stick to 4-5 days instead of 5-6 days. But my workout structure never really changes. I increase my caloric intake (due to the additional help with nutrient partitioning) but like I said, pretty much everything else stays the same.

[smalls]

Agreed. The same priciples still need to be applied. I increase my frequency slightly (sometimes) and up my cals.

[Jordanbcool]

Agreed. The same priciples still need to be applied. I increase my frequency slightly (sometimes) and up my cals.

Well I was planning on consuming a huge amount of calories (prolly like 5k). That might sound small to some but its pretty high for myself. As for the workouts I'm really surprised they dont change much. I was worried i'd have to spend 10 hours in the gym 6 days a week:omg:

-jordan

[d'Anconia]

But post-cycle to try to maintain gains, are you supposed to increase # of sets at all? I was just looking over Maki's article regarding keeping gains and he has some workouts with 20+ sets.
Edit: Actually nevermind. It looks like the examples he was giving was for during the cycle.

[Jordanbcool]

Ok I normally have a 4 day lower/upper body split. From what you guys are saying during a cycle I might do 5 days but off a cycle I'd go back to my 4 day split and just up the calories? Like lets say during a cycle i'd be consuming 5k, then post cycle i'd have to consume maybe 5500 calories?? My sets/reps. would stay the same (4x6, 3x3 for core lifts and 3x10, 3x12 or 4x8 for auxilaries then throw in a 5x5 every once in a while for core/auxilaries to break past a platuea). I'd just be more intense with it (i.e. increase the weight/lift to failure etc. etc.)

Is this right? I want to make sure so I dont miss anything vital. Im pretty sure I got the nutrition down..

-jordan

[Gabrielle]

these are not the questions you should be asking before taking gear. Sorry, but I'm just being honest. You wanna maximize your gains while on cycle, right? Well, if you have been working out long enough you should know what exercises and training split you respond to effectively.

[HILL]

their should be no real difference as above. you calories should already be high as im presuming your bulking already. then when using yu have them even higher. I also do not think your ready to be usuing as you sound like one of these people who is only sorting their diet and training out because their going to be using anabolics. this should not be the case at all.

[Jordanbcool]

their should be no real difference as above. you calories should already be high as im presuming your bulking already. then when using yu have them even higher. I also do not think your ready to be usuing as you sound like one of these people who is only sorting their diet and training out because their going to be using anabolics. this should not be the case at all.

*sigh*

I asked the question not because I dont know what splits Im good at or because I dont know how to work out. I've been lifting for seven years (to date, this june). I know how to lift, I know about reps/sets. etc. etc. The reason I asked is because I assumed that you could do MANY more sets when taking steroids. After all thats recovery right? If you recover faster you can do more sets and it will still be productive to your workouts. I was just surprised to see that your workouts dont change much just because your using. Unless you guys mean more long term recovery i.e. while your sleeping. No I dont know enough about steroids to be using them.......that why Im not on them at this moment in time. But i'd like to learn. And thats what these forums are about. Learning.

-jordan

[Gabrielle]

Since you have been lifting for 7 years what are your stats and numbers? I just have a hard time believing that you have all your ducks in a row, thats all. If you use the search function you will find the answers to your questions about workouts assisted by gear. Workout questions related to gear get posted just about every month or so. There might be some mixed responses, but the majority of regulars would recommend keeping the same routine, only because you are getting stronger each week. Basically, if it ain't broke, don't fix it would be the general point.

[RBB]

Basically, if it ain't broke, don't fix it would be the general point.
i agree. the routine stays the same, but i incorporate a bit more volume. drop sets and super sets where i see fit.

[Jordanbcool]

i agree. the routine stays the same, but i incorporate a bit more volume. drop sets and super sets where i see fit.

Thats what I kinda meant. If not doing 50+ sets (as some pro bodybuilders say) I was planning on doing some super sets in areas I'd like to make grow. Right now Im happy with my biceps, tricpes, glutes, calves and quads. Im not happy with my chest, abs or back.....my traps are amazing but thats besides the point. Anyways my stats are.

5"8, 186 pounds at 11% bodyfat (im estimating...last time I weighed myself I was 190 at 13%).

Bench- Two 85 pound dumbells four times (Im sure I could do two 90s once)

Deadlifts- 315 three times. Again I normally dont train to find my one rep.

Leg press- 485 pounds for 3 reps.

Squats- 285 twice (parallel)

I can always be bigger and stronger. 186-190 pounds at 5"8 is fairly large. I'd like to get up to 220 at 9-10% bodyfat....thats my end lift goal.

-jordan

[Holto]

Jordan:

I hope you are not looking to do this for at least a few years.

[Hatred]

:windup:

[Jordanbcool]

Jordan:

I hope you are not looking to do this for at least a few years.

Why?

[WillKuenzel]

Because you have a considerable amount of strength gaining and growing to do.

[Jordanbcool]

Because you have a considerable amount of strength gaining and growing to do.

Would that be a more reason to take them then? Im pretty damned short (got shafted in the gene department cus my whole family is fairly large) so 190 pounds is pretty big for my height. Plus Im not too far from my goals....maybe 215-220 at 10% BF and i'd be fine with that for the rest of my days....until I get old of course. Plus I know enough about diet/training to coincide with a cycle. Most people just take them without learning either limiting their growth.

-jordan

[WillKuenzel]

Steriods aren't the magic pill to make you bigger, leaner or stronger. It would be like putting a 130lb kid on steriods. What purpose would it do but **** him up at an early age and provide him with a crutch that he thinks will always work.

Yes, steriods can make you bigger and stronger. Does that mean you'll keep those gains? No. Unless you know what you are doing to begin then you're just going to be wasting your money and possibly your damaging your body with something you aren't ready to use.

You might be big for your height but you can be bigger. You could certainly be a helluva a lot stronger. I'm not meaning to sound as condescending as this is coming across as but it just seems like you have quite a bit to learn.

I'm not genetically predisposesd to being big or strong. I could pull 405 for reps at 175. I was repping the hundred pound db's for reps at 160lbs. I'm 5'10". I sometimes feel that even I started earlier than I should have. I've gotten tons stronger since being off.

Steriods aren't a crutch and they're definitely not a jump start to get things rolling. Please understand what you are getting into before you start and understand that steriods aren't the magic bean.

[Jordanbcool]

Steriods aren't the magic pill to make you bigger, leaner or stronger. It would be like putting a 130lb kid on steriods. What purpose would it do but **** him up at an early age and provide him with a crutch that he thinks will always work.

Yes, steriods can make you bigger and stronger. Does that mean you'll keep those gains? No. Unless you know what you are doing to begin then you're just going to be wasting your money and possibly your damaging your body with something you aren't ready to use.

You might be big for your height but you can be bigger. You could certainly be a helluva a lot stronger. I'm not meaning to sound as condescending as this is coming across as but it just seems like you have quite a bit to learn.

I'm not genetically predisposesd to being big or strong. I could pull 405 for reps at 175. I was repping the hundred pound db's for reps at 160lbs. I'm 5'10". I sometimes feel that even I started earlier than I should have. I've gotten tons stronger since being off.

Steriods aren't a crutch and they're definitely not a jump start to get things rolling. Please understand what you are getting into before you start and understand that steriods aren't the magic bean.

I understand that they arent the all in all wonder drug to make you superman overnight. Steroids work; they do. People get huge gains in muscle mass, strength, edurance etc. etc. But without the proper diet (or excess diet I should say) and without good know-how in the gym you would 1) Only see about half of the gains you have the potential to make (genes aside) and 2) Like you said. After a few weeks, months, etc. you could easliy go back down to what you were originally with nothing but wasted time, effort and alot of money to say the very least. I dont know enough to write a book about weight training but I know how to perform every single type of workout that one could do. From rows to deadlifts, from bench press to farmers walk. I know good form, what to watch out for and i've tried a variety of splits/rep tempos/sets etc. etc. I've been doing it since freshman year of high school

As for nutrition I def. dont know the details (ask holto he'll bring up a previous thread that will show you) but I know the basics. Like you need a fairly large excess of calories to make some good muscle gains but that you dont have to get fat in the process. That milk+whey protein are a great post workout combination. That fat is not bad for you etc. etc. I know more then the average person but not nearly as much as....built? slim? brickt? come to mind.

Right now I'll be the first to admit. Im not ready. I dont know if I'll even take steroids soon (in the next few months-a year). I just dont know. Right now Im trying to find out as much as I can. Me and another forum member (dont know if he wants me to blurt out his name so I just wont say it) are thinking about taking our first cycle. I'd like to do alot more research before diving into it. Thats why I made this post. I dont think theres a book that reads "steroid workouts for dummies". All the information I've gotten is all technical (esters come to mind) but I couldnt find anything about workouts. Maybe thats why. Because they dont really change.

Apologies for the long post but I just want everyone to know I'm no "noob" to all this but then again Im no expert. Im just your average young bodybuilder.

-jordan

P.S. :( I thought I was strong too....Eh I'm alot stronger then most people I know.

[Shark]

Again, this is constructive criticism. You're not that strong. I have natural frineds who are your height and wieght 160-170 who lift significantly more weight then you do on many exercises. One of my close friends is not super consistent in the gym and he's 5'9" 175 and hits the 100's on dumbell press 4 sets of 8. Just saying I think you've got a long way to go.

[Jordanbcool]

Again, this is constructive criticism. You're not that strong. I have natural frineds who are your height and wieght 160-170 who lift significantly more weight then you do on many exercises. One of my close friends is not super consistent in the gym and he's 5'9" 175 and hits the 100's on dumbell press 4 sets of 8. Just saying I think you've got a long way to go.

Indeed. Strength is just very relative thats what I meant. I know guys that have probably thirty pounds of muscle on me but I can lift more. I know smaller guys that can lift more then me. Im proud of my weight, but I could be stronger and bigger.

I guess what you guys are trying to say is that I could get pretty big/strong without using steroids at this point in time.

-jordan

[Shark]

yes. I am all for using steroids to reach your goals quicker but i think there's a point you need to pass in your physique and you knowledge first. you have a little ways to go on physique and a larger way to go on knowledge. but you are learning and asking questions which is good.

[smalls]

Bro, I havent seen you mention health once in this thread. Your young and your health is automatic right? Wrong. Steroids will negatively impact pretty much every persons health. And people who jump in quick seem to be the ones who up the doses, who add compounds too quickly and throw everything they have in the fire. Seriously bro, take it from someone who knows, this is a much larger and more serious step than I think your understanding.

Other than that I really think your a ways away from being ready overall.

[Jordanbcool]

Bro, I havent seen you mention health once in this thread. Your young and your health is automatic right? Wrong. Steroids will negatively impact pretty much every persons health. And people who jump in quick seem to be the ones who up the doses, who add compounds too quickly and throw everything they have in the fire. Seriously bro, take it from someone who knows, this is a much larger and more serious step than I think your understanding.

Other than that I really think your a ways away from being ready overall.

If steroids are used in there suggested dosages the side effects will be normal. If they are used in excess. The side effects will be in excess (and you usually wont have any enhanced muscle gain).

-jordan

[smalls]

If steroids are used in there suggested dosages the side effects will be normal. If they are used in excess. The side effects will be in excess (and you usually wont have any enhanced muscle gain).

-jordan


What are suggested dosage?

500 MG of test or less a weak will produce little sides in MOST people, especially if aromatase and 5-alpha reductase inhibitors are used.

Pretty much ANY other drug will effect people negatively. How much obviously depends on dose, length and genetics.

But do you honestly believe all you will ever do is 500mg of test alone. Maybe throw in a little dbol or maybe even Anavar since it's so safe right? BAM your HDL's are now possibly in the teens. Throw on 20lbs in a cycle and all the sudden your BP is 150/95.

These are all just examples and can be different for everyone, but these examples seem to be the minimum for most people I see or know in the gym who dont have a firm grasp on these drugs and their overall health. People on this site seem to have far better control of themselves and their health, but dont blow it off bro.

[Jordanbcool]

What are suggested dosage?

500 MG of test or less a weak will produce little sides in MOST people, especially if aromatase and 5-alpha reductase inhibitors are used.

Pretty much ANY other drug will effect people negatively. How much obviously depends on dose, length and genetics.

But do you honestly believe all you will ever do is 500mg of test alone. Maybe throw in a little dbol or maybe even Anavar since it's so safe right? BAM your HDL's are now possibly in the teens. Throw on 20lbs in a cycle and all the sudden your BP is 150/95.

These are all just examples and can be different for everyone, but these examples seem to be the minimum for most people I see or know in the gym who dont have a firm grasp on these drugs and their overall health. People on this site seem to have far better control of themselves and their health, but dont blow it off bro.

It all depends on what drugs are being used, genetics and the list goes on. I was just stating the fact that the user would have to simply be responsible (i.e. get frequent bloodwork done, dont take more then suggested etc. etc.).

-jordan

[smalls]

Alright, I'm just tryin to help. Just do more research bro. You've got plenty of time.

[Jordanbcool]

Alright, I'm just tryin to help. Just do more research bro. You've got plenty of time.

BTW I was actually thinking about using sustanon for my first cycle (whether I do it now or later).

Thoughts?

-jordan

250mg is suggested. But some people take 500mg to start out without any problems. Of course I'd take clomid post cycle..

[BCC]

Just get a single ester. Sustanon is stewpid.

[Margin Of Error]

Just get a single ester. Sustanon is stewpid.

Is more stable test levels on cycle unesscesarry in your opinion or what?



And smalls since you brought up 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors I was wondering if anyone here had used saw palmetto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saw_palmetto)berry extractives. Wiki says it serves the purpose of finasteride to an even greater degree.

"Unlike most known 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors, saw palmetto induces its effects without interfering with the cellular capacity to secrete PSA. [1] Saw palmetto extract has been demonstrated to inhibit both isoforms of 5-alpha-reductase unlike finesteride which only inhibits the (predominant) type 2 isoenzyme of 5-alpha-reductase."

If anyone knows more about this I would love to hear some info.

[WillKuenzel]

Is more stable test levels on cycle unesscesarry in your opinion or what?
What? More stable levels are better, hence why not to do sust.

[RBB]

since when does sust contribute to more stable test levels? in most cases, it is not shot often enough which results in fluctuating test levels. stick with the first cycle sticky. 500mg of test e, 2 shots/week will give you very stable levels of test. any dumbass can get that right.

[Beast]

P.S. :( I thought I was strong too....Eh I'm alot stronger then most people I know.
I'm your height. I could press the 95s for reps and DL in the high 3's for reps before I touched anything at 190 pounds.

I think you should listen to the others before touching drugs. You'll be a lot better in the long run.

[Jordanbcool]

since when does sust contribute to more stable test levels? in most cases, it is not shot often enough which results in fluctuating test levels. stick with the first cycle sticky. 500mg of test e, 2 shots/week will give you very stable levels of test. any dumbass can get that right.

Its only one injection weekly. Unless you spaced it out and did two injections weekly at 250mg each time. That would end up being 500mg a week. I thought 4 esters was superior too just one??

I dont even know if you can do two injections a week on sustanon..

-jordan

[RBB]

Its only one injection weekly. Unless you spaced it out and did two injections weekly at 250mg each time. That would end up being 500mg a week. I thought 4 esters was superior too just one??

I dont even know if you can do two injections a week on sustanon..

-jordan
its preferable to shoot test e twice a week. how is 4 esters superior to one? sust isn't better than test e just because it is made up of 4 esters. you can have stable blood levels with any ester of test depending on the frequency of your shots. for your first cycle, the easiest way to achieve this is with enanthate. just keep it simple, man. and read up on esters, sounds like you're somewhat confused.

[Jordanbcool]

its preferable to shoot test e twice a week. how is 4 esters superior to one? sust isn't better than test e just because it is made up of 4 esters. you can have stable blood levels with any ester of test depending on the frequency of your shots. for your first cycle, the easiest way to achieve this is with enanthate. just keep it simple, man. and read up on esters, sounds like you're somewhat confused.

I was just told by a source that those 4 esters where superior to just one. But they were probably trying to push the product.

-jordan

[RBB]

I was just told by a source that those 4 esters where superior to just one. But they were probably trying to push the product.

-jordan
like i said, do some research on esters and you would know the answer to that. guy is full of ****. esters do not make one product superior to another. AAS is AAS, the ester merely controls the release of it into your bloodstream.

[Margin Of Error]

What? More stable levels are better, hence why not to do sust.


I was under the impression the entire point of sust was that by using a combination of esters with varying half lifes you can ensure more stable blood levels with infrequent shots. Is sust simply a gimmick for noobs who dont want to shoot as often?

[RBB]

i think it is pushed on a lot of noobs because they think more esters are better. sust was designed with hrt in mind so patients would have to come in for shots less frequently. but to take advantage of the prop, sust requires frequent shots. for bodybuilding purposes there are certainly better choices. one can maintain stable blood levels with enanthate very easily. also, some of the longer esters in sust just take too damn long to clear. having to wait that long to begin pct sucks, imo.

[Holto]

Jordan:

You didn't understand the principle of energy balance 2 months ago.

You are at least a full year of learning about nutrition and training before you are close to being ready.

When you fully understand the principle of energy balance is when you START enriching your understanding of the body.

You are young and making good gains. Give it time.


And people who jump in quick seem to be the ones who up the doses, who add compounds too quickly and throw everything they have in the fire.

This is what really scares me about Jordan.

I also would add that most that start anabolics never stop. One major reason why starting young is such a bad idea.

.

[Holto]

BTW I was actually thinking about using sustanon for my first cycle (whether I do it now or later).

Thoughts?

Horrible, horrible idea.

Test E is so much better I can't even compare it.

[Holto]

I was under the impression the entire point of sust was that by using a combination of esters with varying half lifes you can ensure more stable blood levels with infrequent shots. Is sust simply a gimmick for noobs who dont want to shoot as often?

Good lord. Where do you get this info?

[HahnB]

I also would add that most that start anabolics never stop. One major reason why starting young is such a bad idea.


I would have to agree there and also say it's important to address the sticky posted by Severed Ties about how many cycles you will allow yourself. I've been off and plan on staying off for good or for years and it's tough. It would be even tougher for someone who is at/over their genetic limit when they come off because they don't have much to add naturally after they come off and will tend to lose more in the months following.

[mr.potential]

I agree
just take less time off
you will be motivated to try harder while in the gym anyway

[Gabrielle]

As others have mentioned you have a lot to learn about general usage. You aren't even cracking the surface, yet. You can't generalize side effects, dosage requirements and all that unless you want to have serious health consequences. Stop trying to justify yourself, and pay attention. There are are people here who have been using gear almost as long you have been working out. I would recommend waiting until you have a much better base for taking gear. Your lift numbers are not anywhere near proportionate to the number of years you have been working out. That right there should be motivation enough to wait. You should be at least at flat bench-315, deads-405, parallel squat-405 before even considering using.

[Jordanbcool]

As others have mentioned you have a lot to learn about general usage. You aren't even cracking the surface, yet. You can't generalize side effects, dosage requirements and all that unless you want to have serious health consequences. Stop trying to justify yourself, and pay attention. There are are people here who have been using gear almost as long you have been working out. I would recommend waiting until you have a much better base for taking gear. Your lift numbers are not anywhere near proportionate to the number of years you have been working out. That right there should be motivation enough to wait. You should be at least at flat bench-315, deads-405, parallel squat-405 before even considering using.

No offense but your beating a dead horse. From what was said here I doubt Im going to do a cycle anytime soon (unless some unearthly creature explains everything too me in a few days). I realize I have alot too learn.

And talking about generalization, you cannot spit out those numbers for bench, squat, and deads. Its different for everyone. You do not have to bench a certain amount to be steroid worthy. Being ready for steroids is just as much mental (knowledge) as it is physical.

No offense, I'm just trying to make a point..

-jordan

[Sidior]

No offense but your beating a dead horse. From what was said here I doubt Im going to do a cycle anytime soon (unless some unearthly creature explains everything too me in a few days). I realize I have alot too learn.

And talking about generalization, you cannot spit out those numbers for bench, squat, and deads. Its different for everyone. You do not have to bench a certain amount to be steroid worthy. Being ready for steroids is just as much mental (knowledge) as it is physical.

No offense, I'm just trying to make a point..

-jordan

Being ready for gear may be just as much mental (knowledge) as physical, but your stats and size show how well you apply that knowledge. With subpar stats, you may have the knowledge but you do not know how to apply it yet.

[Jordanbcool]

Being ready for gear may be just as much mental (knowledge) as physical, but your stats and size show how well you apply that knowledge. With subpar stats, you may have the knowledge but you do not know how to apply it yet.

Thats true. I think im going to do a year of clean bulking and maybe a cut if I gain too much fat. Just to see how much I can grow if I do everything properly (which I will or try to the best I can). I've gotten alot stronger since last year and alot bigger. But if anyone cares Im still looking into steroids (researching) so if anyone has any random tidbits of knowledge they'd like to PM me feel free to do so.

Plus I dont think I can afford the cycle and the acne anyways with my new tattoos :p

-jordan

[Holto]

Just throwing this out there Jordan.

I think you should cut down to single digits.

Then do a kitchen sink bulk up to 12%.

Hitting single digits with the mass you have will make you look at your situation alot differently.

[Margin Of Error]

Good lord. Where do you get this info?


Probably from the same kind of people who would rather reply with "Good lord" than actually taking the time to explain the principle properly.

[Jordanbcool]

Just throwing this out there Jordan.

I think you should cut down to single digits.

Then do a kitchen sink bulk up to 12%.

Hitting single digits with the mass you have will make you look at your situation alot differently.

Read my latest journal entry for my PSMF. Comment, and tell me why you feel I should be in the single digits. The link is in my sig.

-jordan

[mrelwooddowd]

Why?

I stopped at this post..

Why?

Because I can do everything you've posted or better, and I've been cutting or maintaining for almost two years since I took up lifting. I know that I can do TONS better, naturally, when I actually get to bulk and consistently workout with legitimate amounts of carbohydrate in my system.

You shouldn't even be researching this **** right now.

[Holto]

Probably from the same kind of people who would rather reply with "Good lord" than actually taking the time to explain the principle properly.

You have to understand that this board has an extremely low tolerance to various forms of stupidity/laziness.

You are trying to help someone and you are giving out garbage.

That is not tolerated here.

When I wanted to learn about sustanon, I spent an hour here reading the threads that came up from SEARCHING.

Then I hit a few more boards. It's not hard.

If you find it too hard then this stuff is not for you.