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RedSpikeyThing
05-30-2006, 10:02 PM
Lets say I bulk for a month and put on ~8 lbs. Thats 2 lbs / week, so I've clearly put on some fat. So the next 4 weeks I cut and lose ~4 lbs, for a net gain of ~4 lbs.
Realisticly, how much of that would be fat? Is there any benefits to doing this versus "I'm bulking until I hit x lbs"? Or I'm cutting until I hit x% bf? Or would I only be gaining and losing water weight?

I like to switch things up and I thought this might be a different approach. Thoughts?

BTW I tried searching for something on this, but I didn't find anything.

ddegroff
05-30-2006, 10:20 PM
I feel that switchin it up that quick is not that effective. I have however never tried it. I would say your better off bulking to x lbs or when your fed up with you fatness, then cut till your happy again or x lbs.

Holto
05-31-2006, 10:30 AM
Lets say I bulk for a month and put on ~8 lbs. Thats 2 lbs / week, so I've clearly put on some fat. So the next 4 weeks I cut and lose ~4 lbs, for a net gain of ~4 lbs.

I think this is a fabulous idea. I plan on trying in soon.



Realisticly, how much of that would be fat?

Could be easily 90-100%.




Is there any benefits to doing this versus "I'm bulking until I hit x lbs"? Or I'm cutting until I hit x% bf?

There are 3 tremendous benefits.

1) Cutting slows your metabolism. Cutting for 4 weeks barely budges it.

2) You get your best gains bulking in the first month. After that you gain more fat percentage wise.

3) Another tremendous benefit is the periodization that you unintentionally impose. You train heavy for 4 weeks (bulking) and then train for maintenance (cutting).

The cutting allows neurological recovery making it possible to hit the bulk harder and heavier. Then you give your joints a rest while cutting.



Or would I only be gaining and losing water weight?

Absolutely not. The scale will shift very quicky at the end of each month but the net gains will be there.

:)

Holto
05-31-2006, 10:32 AM
Start a journal if you do this. I think this is the future. That and targeted bulks.

In the 70's,80's and early 90's there was only 1 kind of bulk. The kitchen sink bulk. Bodbuilders gained an enormous amount of weight to follow with a long cut.

In the early 90's people started to learn about the principle of enery balance. Realizing there is a finite limit to the LBM you can gain. There is no point in eating beyond that. The solution was the clean bulk, where you actually count calories to produce a very specific result. LBM added with minimal fat.

Cutting is no fun. Bulk to gain some lean mass fast and then cut so it's a net positive. I like it.

:thumbup:

TheGimp
05-31-2006, 12:46 PM
Holto inspired me to do something along these lines. Basically the plan was to bulk for 6 weeks, then cut for 2. I've just done that and the results were thus:

Starting weight: 134.0 lbs
End of bulk weight: 139.0 lbs
End of cut weight: 138.4 lbs

Starting waist: 28 inches
End of bulk waist: 29.5 inches
End of cut waist: 28.5 inches

No strength loss from the cut.

I'd have been ecstatic if the net waist gain was 0 but as it is I feel that tacking on a mere 2 weeks of cutting meant virtually all of that 4.4 lbs I gained is LBM and I'm primed for another 6 weeks of bulking.

Things I might do differently... well I don't think I ate enough during my bulk, and I used UD2.0 for the cut, think I'm gonna replace it with a PSMF next time as I can't stand the carb loading any more. Plus it might be beneficial to tweak how many weeks I spend on both; perhaps 5/2 or 6/3.

HILL
05-31-2006, 01:10 PM
holto/OP this is also something ive been sort of debating about trying after ive finished maintaining thro pct i may try this with 6-8 week bulks to 3-4 week cuts. we shall see

RedSpikeyThing
05-31-2006, 02:22 PM
Could be easily 90-100%.

That doesn't sounds like a good thing at all! Is that a typo?


Cutting slows your metabolism. Cutting for 4 weeks barely budges it.

So this means you get to eat more on a cut, right?

Should the bulk and cut lengths be the same?

The more I start thinking about this, the more I'm liking it.

KingJustin
05-31-2006, 05:10 PM
The bulk and cut lengths don't have to be the same.

I've been heavily considering something like this as well. I think I'm going to try a body recomposition where I essentially bulk for 1 day and then cut the very next and repeat, but if that doesn't seem to be working then I think this is probably what I'll end up doing.

Built
05-31-2006, 05:19 PM
There are a couple of points I feel the need to bring up here. They may be unsubstantiated, but I'd like to at least discuss them:

1. Rebound fat gain after a cut totally blows.
2. I seem to make the best muscle gains when my bodyfat goes over a certain threshold. Not TOO fat, but not uber-lean either.

Discuss.

TheGimp
05-31-2006, 05:32 PM
2. I seem to make the best muscle gains when my bodyfat goes over a certain threshold. Not TOO fat, but not uber-lean either.

Lyle McD. postulates that the leaner one is when starting a bulk, the more favourable their ratio of muscle to fat gained is, up to a certain point. Beyond this the body is primed to store fat. I believe he recommends starting at around 12% BF (this is for men obv). For me that's a pretty big factor in my decision to give these shorter cycles a whirl.

Built
05-31-2006, 05:33 PM
Lyle argued that this is true for people who are naturally lean, not dieted down. Berardi argued that the leaner you go into a bulk, the better you'll partition.

RedSpikeyThing
05-31-2006, 09:04 PM
1. Rebound fat gain after a cut totally blows.


I'm assuming that means the first few pounds you put on after a cut are fat?

Also, would the amount of fat you put on vary depending on how long the cut was? If you're only in a caloric deficit for a few weeks versus a few months, would you put on less "rebound fat"?

TheGimp
06-01-2006, 01:45 AM
Lyle argued that this is true for people who are naturally lean, not dieted down.

We're talking about this (http://www.readthecore.com/200501/mcdonald-body-composition.htm) article right? :)

The example he cites of people dieting down and then gaining an unfavourable amount of muscle:fat is where they reached 4 or 5% BF. That's why he recommends dieting down to 10 - 12% first, lean enough to avoid what he hypothesises is a
development of systemic insulin resistance which causes calories to go into fat stores more readily at body fat levels of around 15% or higher while not so lean that the body is desperate to store fat.

RedSpikeyThing
06-01-2006, 08:35 AM
Would it be a good idea to put a week or two of maintenance between bulks and cuts?
This would be a good way to recalculate your maintenance cals after each cycle. My only conern would be that adding this week in would make the entire process just take longer. Thoughts?

ddegroff
06-01-2006, 08:48 AM
Yes, it would add time to the entire process. BUT I think it would be a good idea to do that inbetween the bulk/cut cycle. Dropping cals by too much can be difficult to maintain and same goes for raising cals too quickly.

<i've changed my mind on this subject since my first post>

RedSpikeyThing
06-01-2006, 08:53 AM
Yes, it would add time to the entire process. BUT I think it would be a good idea to do that inbetween the bulk/cut cycle. Dropping cals by too much can be difficult to maintain and same goes for raising cals too quickly.

<i've changed my mind on this subject since my first post>

So maybe just do it for a week to help keep your sanity. Also would it reduce the "Rebound fat" that built is talking about?

Holto
06-01-2006, 12:55 PM
Let me try this again.


Lets say I bulk for a month and put on ~8 lbs. Thats 2 lbs / week, so I've clearly put on some fat. So the next 4 weeks I cut and lose ~4 lbs, for a net gain of ~4 lbs.
Realisticly, how much of that would be fat?

Quite possibly 0%.

Holto
06-01-2006, 01:06 PM
I have never experienced rebound fat gain.

I have, however, experienced rediculous gains in LBM after cutting.

To me the *primary mechanism* of rebound fat gain is metabolic suppression.

In my case I attribute my rebound LBM gains to being neurologically fresher than ever.

---------------------------------------------------

There would be two factors to determine the timeframes of each wave.

1) Cut until your metabolism drops
2) Bulk until you are no longer gaining LBM at the rate you were for the first few weeks

The waves should be long enough that you can clearly measure your progress.

ddegroff
06-01-2006, 02:16 PM
Red, I think Holto answered your question.

Jordanbcool
06-02-2006, 05:27 AM
What an interesting thread. I've always thought about trying something like this instead of always being either super lean or super fat.

Right now I'm super lean :(

I miss my tummmmmy

-jordan

On that topic I cant wait too get some pics up. I look pretty ripped now at 185 :)

RedSpikeyThing
06-02-2006, 01:51 PM
What kind of routine do you guys think should be used to accompany the cycling?
I would train heavy every cut in an attempt to retain as much LBM as possible. It's the bulks I'm a little confused about. Lifting heavy = lots of strength gains, but less hypertrophy. Maybe alternate between strength and hypertrophy training? Or do two bulks for hypertrophy, one for strength?

Ideas?

Eszekial
06-02-2006, 02:15 PM
When cutting, 3 working sets of 5 reps.

When bulking, 5 working sets of 5 reps.

I would find that ideal.

Jordanbcool
06-02-2006, 02:56 PM
What kind of routine do you guys think should be used to accompany the cycling?
I would train heavy every cut in an attempt to retain as much LBM as possible. It's the bulks I'm a little confused about. Lifting heavy = lots of strength gains, but less hypertrophy. Maybe alternate between strength and hypertrophy training? Or do two bulks for hypertrophy, one for strength?

Ideas?

It really shouldnt change a whole lot. Cuts would probably include more strength type training simply because you have less energy and cant do as many sets as you can bulking (thats how it is for me atleast). I usually cut down my auxilaries a little bit (reps.) while cutting.

On bulks I keep core lifts the same but up the auxilaries too 3x12 or 3x10. Thats how i've always done it for years and its never let me down. Best thing to do is to mix it up on both cuts and bulks.

While cutting; doing more reps. burns more calories during the actual workout. While bulking it creates better hypertrophy then lower reps. However lower reps. but more weight tends too burn more post workout (this is good on cuts). Also on bulks lower reps. but higher weight usually recruits more muscle simply because you normally do big lifts with them (think deads, squats, bench, cleans etc.) which again gives you some good growth.

So yea. Basic point is too mix it up on bulks and cuts. And they shouldnt really change a whole lot IMO. Unless your on a PSMF like Im on. In that case I had too cut everything waaay down. Theres benifits both on cuts and bulks for what I discussed.

-jordan

P.S. If I'm wrong about anything I just said, simply correct me. I dont think I'm wrong though but I'm trying to be more careful now with my posts. I cant stand when people post wrong info.....and I shouldnt do the same.

KingJustin
06-02-2006, 03:36 PM
I think that I would aim for my cuts to be higher intensity, but fewer sets.

Eszekial
06-02-2006, 03:54 PM
Has anybody made a formal split / timing / calendar / diet, for this type of training?

I'm highly interested in this.

RedSpikeyThing
06-02-2006, 10:15 PM
Has anybody made a formal split / timing / calendar / diet, for this type of training?

I'm highly interested in this.

I second that!

Jordanbcool
06-03-2006, 07:41 AM
Zek and red.

Buy the UD2 book (or get it from someone on here). This is pretty much what you are talking about. You bascially cycle between dieting and bulking stages throughout the week. It can be used too lose fat while gaining some muscle or it can be used to gain muscle while gaining pretty much no fat. I've been reading it. Not only does it provide the diet (which if anything should atleast be checked out) but it gives you some great information on hormones, dieting etc. etc. Bascially everything a bodybuilder needs too know.

I'm going too try it out (havent decided how). Either i'll use it to lose some fat or i'll lose it too gain some muscle without becoming a blimp over summer. It looks pretty solid from what i've read.

-jordan

IronJay
06-03-2006, 12:40 PM
This has got me thinking too. I am going to start now. April 8th I competed and wieghed in at 190lbs at my lowest. I have been increasing my cals up until now and as of this AM I was 218. I haven't eaten all that well today:redface: so tomorrow I will try a reduced cal diet for a couple weeks and see how it goes.

Jordanbcool
06-03-2006, 07:09 PM
Yeah, if someone has UD2 I'd like to glance over it ...

I can give you the name of someone but you'd have too PM me for it. I feel kinda guilty with the whole piracy thing but I bought his PSMF book so I dont feel that bad...

eh.

Stumprrp
06-03-2006, 07:17 PM
im starting a very intense bulk tomorrow that will last 6-8 weeks, i am still about 18% BF right now though, i have cut down 80 and plain got tired of it, lol, so you all say after week 4 it will be mostly fat? i find that hard to believe if i go clean (i am) proper supps (i am) and train intensly, i am like 198 now and i want 220 after the bulk, with 6-8 lbs being fat. possible?

Jordanbcool
06-03-2006, 11:01 PM
im starting a very intense bulk tomorrow that will last 6-8 weeks, i am still about 18% BF right now though, i have cut down 80 and plain got tired of it, lol, so you all say after week 4 it will be mostly fat? i find that hard to believe if i go clean (i am) proper supps (i am) and train intensly, i am like 198 now and i want 220 after the bulk, with 6-8 lbs being fat. possible?

Uh your numbers seem way off. Im around your height and when I weighed 210 I was extremly obese. Unless you have an insane amount of muscle or fat I dont see how you ever weighed close too 300 pounds.

-jordan

Stumprrp
06-04-2006, 07:34 AM
well i weighted 275 and i ahve plenty of pictures i can scan to show it, search for a video of me flexing at 197..

i have been strong all of my life, at 275 never lifting and 15 years old i could bench 190 deadlift 315 and leg press 7 plates for reps. iono dude lol.

Gutz981
06-04-2006, 07:42 AM
Uh your numbers seem way off. Im around your height and when I weighed 210 I was extremly obese. Unless you have an insane amount of muscle or fat I dont see how you ever weighed close too 300 pounds.

-jordan

Uh alot of your posts 'seem way off' but we just kindly ignore you. :)

Jordanbcool
06-04-2006, 09:34 AM
Uh alot of your posts 'seem way off' but we just kindly ignore you. :)

This coming from a 16 year old whos likely to have a year (tops) of bodybuilding under his belt.

Jordanbcool
06-04-2006, 09:36 AM
well i weighted 275 and i ahve plenty of pictures i can scan to show it, search for a video of me flexing at 197..

i have been strong all of my life, at 275 never lifting and 15 years old i could bench 190 deadlift 315 and leg press 7 plates for reps. iono dude lol.

Can I see some pics? Im not trying to be an ass or anything. It just seems like you'd be in a record book or something at that weight. Well maybe not. But still. 275 at our heights?! It would be a sight indeed.

If you have pics you can PM me them or post them or w/e. If you change your mind about it dont worry, I'm just curious and since I have ADHD i'll probably forget about it soon.

-jordan

P.S. Read my PSMF journal. Go too the last page and comment. Im trying too get as much feedback as possible so for the next week or so I'm probably going to encourage as many people as possible to read it.

Holto
06-04-2006, 04:03 PM
Jordan:

I'm 242 right now and look like 190.

You can't compare any two individuals.

Holto
06-04-2006, 04:03 PM
This coming from a 16 year old whos likely to have a year (tops) of bodybuilding under his belt.

He was totally joking.

Lighten up bro.

Jordanbcool
06-04-2006, 04:43 PM
Jordan:

I'm 242 right now and look like 190.

You can't compare any two individuals.

Holto. Even you have too admit that is a sizeable weight too height difference.

Annnnd its hard too know if someone is joking are not on the internet lol.

-jordan

P.S. If you were joking....sorry lol

Holto
06-04-2006, 08:20 PM
Holto. Even you have too admit that is a sizeable weight too height difference.

Annnnd its hard too know if someone is joking are not on the internet lol.

-jordan

P.S. If you were joking....sorry lol

They call him Stump for a reason J-Money............

Stumprrp
06-05-2006, 09:30 AM
yeah they DID call me stump for a reason...

275 to 195 and goin back to 220

Holto
06-05-2006, 10:15 AM
Stumprrp:

Keep it up bro.

You're two different people in those pics.

Chic's dig it.

Stumprrp
06-05-2006, 10:39 AM
holto - thanks dude, just wanted to show that jordan dude that i wasnt lieing lol

cant beat the 18 inch guns in the stump pics though, BLAH LOL.

getfit
06-05-2006, 10:40 AM
yeah they DID call me stump for a reason...

275 to 195 and goin back to 220
you've done am awesome job son, keep it up :)

Stumprrp
06-05-2006, 10:54 AM
thanks GF, back to the topic though this isnt about me lol.