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BB_Classic
01-25-2002, 04:30 PM
Whats up everyone, I have some questions...
Please if you know, answer them...

What is leptin and its use in bodybuilding?
What is Polliquins principles, more specifically, his program?
What is the box squat, and why it works so well?
What is the principle of muscle fusion ?
What is cyclodextrin complex?
What does pyruvate does?
What is the effectiveness of boron in bodybuilders...

Please!!!
I will appreciate it very much if you can answer atleats one of them...
Peace

PowerManDL
01-25-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by BB_Classic
Whats up everyone, I have some questions...
Please if you know, answer them...

What is leptin and its use in bodybuilding?

The new money-vacuum fad for 2002.

What is Polliquins principles, more specifically, his program?

A book by Charles Poliquin for bodybuilders, and not a bad one from what I understand. I'd suggest reading it for info.

What is the box squat, and why it works so well?

A squat done on a box. It's helpful for a variety of reasons, mostly because of the way it relaxes then instantly engages the involved muscles.

What is the principle of muscle fusion ?

I'm going to assume you're talking about satellite cell fusion-- which is basically when immature muscle cells fuse with existing cells to make them bigger.

What is cyclodextrin complex?

See above, except for 2001.

What does pyruvate does?

See above.

What is the effectiveness of boron in bodybuilders...

See above.

BB_Classic
01-25-2002, 04:44 PM
Thanks...

Blood&Iron
01-25-2002, 05:10 PM
I have a different opinion on a couple of these...

Leptin is a very significant hormone involved in weightloss. Cyclical isocaloric diets, for example, are based on the idea of manipulating leptin levels to enhance fat-loss. Few people have, at this point, really tested them. If you want a good introduction to leptin go to:
http://www.avantlabs.com
There are several detailed, annotated articles on the leptin and its mechanism of action.

Poliquin is a fairly well-esteemed(well, by some) trainer of professional athletes. He doesn't have a single system. The Poliquin Principles, although full of inexcusable typos, is a decent book. There's plenty he says with which I disagree, but I've personally incorparated a number of his ideas into my workouts.

Cyclodextrin is merely a delivery system, which helps improve the efficacy of things like pro-hormones. It helps, but oral pro-hormones--other than 1-AD--are pretty worthless, even using cyclodextrin, unless you take huge amounts.

BB_Classic
01-25-2002, 05:18 PM
Thanks blood

PowerManDL
01-25-2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron
I have a different opinion on a couple of these...

Leptin is a very significant hormone involved in weightloss. Cyclical isocaloric diets, for example, are based on the idea of manipulating leptin levels to enhance fat-loss. Few people have, at this point, really tested them. If you want a good introduction to leptin go to:
http://www.avantlabs.com
There are several detailed, annotated articles on the leptin and its mechanism of action.


I've read all that. My conclusion?


See above.

Blood&Iron
01-25-2002, 06:12 PM
This is from one of, if not *the*, most respected authority on dieting(Lyle McDonald):



Beyond that, there is one overwhelming data point that has come out of the research: leptin is the primary (note: primary, NOT the only) signal that tells the body it's starving (i.e. leptin is an anti-starvation
hormone).

It's drop plays a causal role in the majority of negative adaptations (including but not limited to decreasing metabolic rate, decreasing fat oxidation, increasing appetite, etc) which occur during dieting.

Maintaining levels would therefore be expected to prevent (or at least ameliorate) said adaptations. As stated, I can recall seeing this conclusion offered hesitantly in the discussion of one study. One other study (that examined refeeding after dieting) supports that. As do basic first principles.

Unfortunately, this approach is fundamentally against the general idea of obesity treatment which is to give people a pill so that they don't have to diet or exercise (this is my hunch why most researchers haven't made this logic leap, they are myopic as hell). So the studies looking at injectable leptin have only been done in fat folks who weren't dieting. To my knowledge, nobody has examined giving leptin during a diet but I already can tell you what the results would be: the majority of the starvation response would be avoided.

Other strategies (such as occasional hypercaloric refeeds, which we've discussed ad nauseam here on mfw) offer a less potent, but still workeable solution. It won't prevent the drop in leptin completely, but it certainly helps.

Lyle

PowerManDL
01-25-2002, 06:17 PM
What does this have to do with the fact that this will most likely be used as a profit vehicle for supplement companies for a few months before everyone realizes it doesn't work?

And since when was Lyle McDonald even ONE of the most respected authorities on diet?

Blood&Iron
01-25-2002, 06:26 PM
So what would supp. companies sell anyway? Carb powder? They already do. Supplement companies make money off protein, does that mean protein is a "money-vacuum fad" and I should not eat protein. Hell, companies make money selling bottled water. So maybe I should quit drinking that.

Yeah, Lyle McDonald is full of sh*t. Listen to people like John Berardi, or better yet, Chris Aceto. Now those guys know what they're talking about.

PowerManDL
01-25-2002, 06:33 PM
Protein is hardly a fad. Protein's been a staple since the beginning.

But every new Miracle Super Hormone Replacement plus Beta-Andro Megaplex 500000000 isn't going to be a "revolution."

And I'll say the same thing about this one, too. Its going to be a a flop. Just like HMB was, and Ribose, and Boron, and prohormones, and isoflavones were. You can quote study after study to prove it, but I'll put money down that it won't back up the claims.

Lyle even says that it hasn't been tested in normal people or God forbid in athletes, only in obese people. What works for the fatasses usually won't work for those of us in decent shape.

And I never said Lyle didn't know anything. Only that he's hardly a dieting expert.

Blood&Iron
01-25-2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
Protein is hardly a fad. Protein's been a staple since the beginning.

But every new Miracle Super Hormone Replacement plus Beta-Andro Megaplex 500000000 isn't going to be a "revolution."

And I'll say the same thing about this one, too. Its going to be a a flop. Just like HMB was, and Ribose, and Boron, and prohormones, and isoflavones were. You can quote study after study to prove it, but I'll put money down that it won't back up the claims.

Lyle even says that it hasn't been tested in normal people or God forbid in athletes, only in obese people. What works for the fatasses usually won't work for those of us in decent shape.

And I never said Lyle didn't know anything. Only that he's hardly a dieting expert.
Obviously, you either have very poor reading comprehension or you haven't in fact read anything about leptin(I'm betting the latter.) Leptin is a hormone, like testosterone, IGF-1, etc. It can be bought--for about $1,000 a day--but it certainly is not a dietary supplement, and is far too expensive currently for even pro-bodybuilders. So your comparisons to dietary supplements really doesn't make any more sense than comparing testosterone to dietary supplements.

You don't apparently know much about Lyle McDonald either. But that's your loss.

PowerManDL
01-25-2002, 07:12 PM
*Frolics in the irony of that post*

I love it!!

Blood&Iron
01-25-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
*Frolics in the irony of that post*

I love it!!
Enlighten me...

PowerManDL
01-25-2002, 08:03 PM
I've known Lyle (not by the PowerMan name) through the Internet for a few years now, actually-- and I've kept up with the majority of his work via several forums.

:D

As far as not knowing anything about hormones--- again, :D

Blood&Iron
01-25-2002, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
I've known Lyle (not by the PowerMan name) through the Internet for a few years now, actually-- and I've kept up with the majority of his work via several forums.

:D

Well, then, I'm even more perplexed.



As far as not knowing anything about hormones--- again, :D
I didn't say you didn't know anything about hormones--I have no idea of your knowledge or lack thereof. Merely that you were asserting that leptin was something analogous to HMB which is ludicrous.

I'm done here.

TreeTrunks
01-25-2002, 08:36 PM
Blood and iron is right powerman. Check out the links.

http://www.rockefeller.edu/pubinfo/leptinlevel.nr.html
http://www.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/9611.Kim.leptin.html

PowerManDL
01-25-2002, 08:43 PM
It sounds plausible. But then, so does everything before its actually used.

Show me actual non-biased results, in athletes, and we'll see.

TreeTrunks
01-25-2002, 08:49 PM
Sounds like a typical powermanDL post.

PowerManDL
01-25-2002, 09:04 PM
Yeah, what's with me always wanting proof and evidence before I spend tons of money on something?

MWB
01-26-2002, 03:58 AM
I thought the whole point of the Par Dues articles was figuring out how to manipulate your leptin levels through diet, not by supplementing with it. I remember him posting on another board that he will soon write an article on just how to do it.

Blood&Iron
01-26-2002, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by MWB
I thought the whole point of the Par Dues articles was figuring out how to manipulate your leptin levels through diet, not by supplementing with it. I remember him posting on another board that he will soon write an article on just how to do it.
Exactly. Hence my bewilderment. Par's articles, while good, are not really anything new. At this point, the general consesus is that the best bet for manipulating leptin levels is to use a isocaloric diet(but really you can use any kind of diet here) with occasional hypercaloric refeeds consisting primarily of glucose and glucose polymers of about 20-50% above maintenance. I'll be surprised if Par's next articles says anything new, but I'll be interested to read it. I'm experimenting with this myself and am keeping an online journal here on WBB. Good results so far.

MonStar1023
01-26-2002, 08:53 AM
Blood&Iron-
Yeah what Par Deus I think was saying is exactly that bro. I mean isocaloric may keep leptin levels steady, but I dont think that isocaloric is the only way to go... I mean what do you think? What are the benefits of isocaloric? Compared to low-carb?

Also carb-up meals as opposed to carb-up deads or hypercaloric refeeds are completely different obviously. While at a carb-up meal, while on NHE, I may eat around 1000-1500 calories, mostly coming from carbs, I am not sure if thats 20-50% above my maintenance etc. I eat around 500 cals from ice-cream or something. 2 scoops.. roughly 2 ounces per scoop.. (I guess!?) and a HUGE HUGE HUGE bowl of pasta..

:cool::cool:

PowerManDL
01-26-2002, 10:33 AM
Ok, then its a topic of dietary manipulation then.

This isn't the first one of those I've seen by far. And honestly, one of the main reasons I don't think they work is because they try to isolate a few hormones and bring them into the spotlight.

The problem with that is that you can't do that. You may optimize hGH, insulin, leptin, or whatever you want, but the thing is, hormones don't work by themselves. Trying to focus on one or even just a handful is at the point of useless.

Just look at all the psycho things people do to get a GH response. No eating before running, no eating before bed, no carbs before lifting--- I'll bet you're getting a GH spike at all those times. But is it making up for all the cortisol in your blood? I highly doubt it.

And that's not to imply that this can't/won't work. I just want to see the evidence first-- so yes B&I, I will be keeping up with your journal.

TreeTrunks
01-26-2002, 10:42 AM
What I meant powermanDL is even when you have evidence in front of your face you still question it. Hence your arrogance.

Par Deus
01-26-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
Ok, then its a topic of dietary manipulation then.

This isn't the first one of those I've seen by far. And honestly, one of the main reasons I don't think they work is because they try to isolate a few hormones and bring them into the spotlight.



That is the beauty of leptin -- it is the master hormone that controls all of the others (except insulin, which is controlled by glucose (like leptin) so it comes along for the ride with overfeeding). It is what senses the body's nutritional state. Along with insulin, it is the reason mass phases work.

The above fact is also the biggest problem as far keeping leptin levels high enough to get repartioning while staying lean, because you have to overfeed to get them up and this is obviously accompanied by fat gain, and to lose the fat, you underfeed, thus leptin drops. CIDs trick the body to some extent, but not like injections would.

With injections, you could diet down until you died, losing several pounds a week the entire time -- with no muscle loss, no slowing of fat loss, and without ever even feeling hungry.

Par Deus
01-26-2002, 02:50 PM
Also, Lyle is indeed the foremost nutritional expert in this field. Other than Elzi Volk, there is no one else close.

PowerManDL
01-26-2002, 02:51 PM
It sounds interesting, really-- but I'm still taking the wait and see stance.

MWB
01-26-2002, 03:31 PM
Par Deus, will there be another leptin article in BMF issue 5?

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-26-2002, 05:28 PM
Elzi Volk is Da Girl!

Par Deus
01-26-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by MWB
Par Deus, will there be another leptin article in BMF issue 5?


Yes. It will be the first of two on looking directly at the fat loss aspects of leptin.

Maki Riddington
01-26-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Par Deus
Also, Lyle is indeed the foremost nutritional expert in this field. Other than Elzi Volk, there is no one else close.

*** What makes one a "expert" in their field?
Don't get me wrong, Elzi and Lyle are very knowledgable folks......

BB_Classic
01-26-2002, 08:26 PM
Thanks for answers...
But now, what is "GI" insulin? I know what insulin and insulin spike is...
But whats that?
Peace

BB_Classic
01-26-2002, 08:26 PM
Sorry, I meant GH

Maki Riddington
01-26-2002, 08:30 PM
Growth hormone.

Par Deus
01-27-2002, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by Maki Riddington


*** What makes one a "expert" in their field?
Don't get me wrong, Elzi and Lyle are very knowledgable folks......


Read MFW

Maki Riddington
01-27-2002, 09:51 AM
Unfortunately I have niether the time nor the patience to weed through the posts and decifer for myself what is good and what isn't.

I'm on another board where 99.% of the posts are imformative.

Par Deus
01-27-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Maki Riddington
Unfortunately I have niether the time nor the patience to weed through the posts and decifer for myself what is good and what isn't.

I'm on another board where 99.% of the posts are imformative.


I have quit participating in MFW for that very reason. It is a shame, because it has some very knowledgable people.

PowerManDL
01-27-2002, 07:59 PM
Most of them are on the same board Maki's talking about.

It doesn't have the ads and fake wrestlers and such, though.

Blood&Iron
01-27-2002, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
Most of them are on the same board Maki's talking about.

It doesn't have the ads and fake wrestlers and such, though.
Do you mean Lyle, Elzi, Will Brink, Pat Arnold, etc and/or people of a similar caliber? If so what's the board?

PowerManDL
01-27-2002, 09:08 PM
Well, Lyle's not any more-- he kinda got into it with Mel awhile back.... but most of the familiar names from MFW and Strength List are there.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/supertraining

Maki Riddington
01-27-2002, 10:27 PM
Elzi,Dave Tate, Charles Stayle, Thomas Incedlon (sp) all post there among other very knowledgable people.

aeckhardt
01-28-2002, 09:45 PM
Yeah, but other than the lowered testosterone levels, why would a CID be better than low carbs. I mean you could still do the refeeds while on low carbs.

Par Deus
01-29-2002, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by aeckhardt
Yeah, but other than the lowered testosterone levels, why would a CID be better than low carbs. I mean you could still do the refeeds while on low carbs.


Leptin does not drop as much during the dieting part.

aeckhardt
01-29-2002, 08:00 AM
That would make sense.

Marcel
01-29-2002, 11:14 AM
This CID diet is very interesting because I went to that groups misc.weights site thing where Lyle McDonald posts and I read a whole bunch of posts. Ok...so I read that you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time nothing new (very controversial, blah, blah, blah) but what interested me was the pre and post workout meals. Lyle was saying that right before( I mean like a minute or two before you start your workout to comsume a high-glycemic carb drink with some whey and the right after your workout to consume another one just like that one.

Reading ST and other say that the GH increase you get from working out is minimal and won't do much by itself I started to think that maybe the NHE style of diet for cutting isn't the best way to go about things. Maybe the CID is because that way you COULD consume the high-glycemic carb-drink with your whey right before and right after your workout and minimize muscle loss whilst "cutting". Then you could still do the carb loads every 3 or 4 days and keep leptin levels up. So watcha think about that eh?!?!?(Long ass post):D

Blood&Iron
01-29-2002, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Marcel
This CID diet is very interesting because I went to that groups misc.weights site thing where Lyle McDonald posts and I read a whole bunch of posts. Ok...so I read that you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time nothing new (very controversial, blah, blah, blah) but what interested me was the pre and post workout meals. Lyle was saying that right before( I mean like a minute or two before you start your workout to comsume a high-glycemic carb drink with some whey and the right after your workout to consume another one just like that one.

Not sure if this is a more recent recommendation than the one I'm following or not, but Lyle has also suggested drinking your protein just before commencing your workout and the carbs about 1/2 through so as to take advantage of their differing rates of digestion(Protien takes about 1 hour to kick in, carbs a half hour)



Reading ST and other say that the GH increase you get from working out is minimal and won't do much by itself I started to think that maybe the NHE style of diet for cutting isn't the best way to go about things. Maybe the CID is because that way you COULD consume the high-glycemic carb-drink with your whey right before and right after your workout and minimize muscle loss whilst "cutting". Then you could still do the carb loads every 3 or 4 days and keep leptin levels up. So watcha think about that eh?!?!?(Long ass post):D
This is what I've been doing. Going well so far. Although, having read up a bit more last night, there are a number of things in my approach which may be less than optimal. Lyle has not been very forthcoming with what is 'ideal' due to the fact that he's writing a book on the subject. A bit more research, though, and maybe I'll be able to cobble together his various comments into something that approximates what will be in his book.

Marcel
01-30-2002, 11:01 AM
B&I - hey wazzup dude? That reccomendation I read about high glycemic carb drink with some whey was at the google misc.weights message board thingy. It was 2 days ago but I'm not sure how long ago the post was...I have to go check it. That's what I was thinking too about reading and putting some theories together and trying it out to see if I notice a difference while cuting. Essentially it comes out to calories in vs. calories out but still always gotta be looking for better ways.:read: :read: :read:

Blood&Iron
01-30-2002, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Marcel
Essentially it comes out to calories in vs. calories out but still always gotta be looking for better ways.:read: :read: :read:
Yes, one wonders how much a difference all of the extra effort at manipulating hormones, etc. makes. But in the case of leptin, it is almost certainly worth it.

PowerManDL
01-30-2002, 12:54 PM
Unless you do it at the expense of other more important factors.

aeckhardt
01-30-2002, 01:10 PM
When cutting what would be some of these other factors? I mean obviously I know some, but I am wondering which ones you are speaking of.

Blood&Iron
01-30-2002, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by aeckhardt
When cutting what would be some of these other factors? I mean obviously I know some, but I am wondering which ones you are speaking of.
I would assume he's referring to silly things like skipping post/pre workout nutrition to maximize GH, etc. that actually end up being counterproductive.

Marcel
01-30-2002, 01:21 PM
B&I - I think we are on the right track.:idea:

Power - elaborate some please...:whazzup:

PowerManDL
01-30-2002, 01:55 PM
B&I pretty much hit it dead on.

The major problem I have with these fad diets is that they sacrifice key components for the sake of one or a handful of hormones.

Sure, you can increase GH, but most methods for doing so also release a lot of cortisol.

Sure, you can increase insulin levels-- but do it consistently and you're going to get fat.

The list goes on.

I'm pretty much in favor of just eating a good, balanced diet. That means some of each macro at each meal. The hormonal balance will come from that.

beercan
01-31-2002, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by PowerManDL

I'm pretty much in favor of just eating a good, balanced diet. That means some of each macro at each meal. The hormonal balance will come from that.

Amen to that.

I'd LOVE to get on a bodybuilding stage with the 2 jokers that are debating this fact with you, powerman.

They don't give points for cutting and pasting. ;)

Blood&Iron
01-31-2002, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by beercan


Amen to that.

I'd LOVE to get on a bodybuilding stage with the 2 jokers that are debating this fact with you, powerman.

They don't give points for cutting and pasting. ;)
Yes, but we do get points for having taking the time to read about the subject and for a sense of scientific curiosity.

But I'm sure you're far more impressive looking than I'll ever be(No sarcasm here.)

As I believe Dan Duchaine said:
"No scientist ever made anyone bigger than a dumb-sh*t bodybuilder."

Imply from that what you will.

beercan
01-31-2002, 08:46 AM
I wasn't referring to you.

I just get a big kick out of people that hide behind thier computers, and preach crazy new theories that obviously aren't working for them.

Blood&Iron
01-31-2002, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by beercan
I wasn't referring to you.


I am the only person to have cut and pasted something during the course of this thread, so...



I just get a big kick out of people that hide behind thier computers, and preach crazy new theories that obviously aren't working for them.
Most of those 'preaching' about the importance of leptin have gotten tremendous results by employing hypercaloric refeeds. Lyle McDonald is one--I think he is sub 6%bf at this point, having achieved this with minimal cardio and without the use of steroids. Elzi Volk and Par Deus have also, from what I've read, gotten very impressive results, as have a good number of other people--myself included. So *this* theory is working.

And I don't believe any of these people are "hiding" behind their computers.

PowerManDL
01-31-2002, 11:10 AM
I went over to MFW and actually read up on a good bit of this "breakthrough."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this essentially consists of eating sub-maintenance for a few days, then over-eating while emphasizing carbs, yes?

Marcel
01-31-2002, 11:16 AM
From what I have read yes...

Blood&Iron
01-31-2002, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
I went over to MFW and actually read up on a good bit of this "breakthrough."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this essentially consists of eating sub-maintenance for a few days, then over-eating while emphasizing carbs, yes?
There is a bit more to it than that, but yes, you are essentially correct.

PowerManDL
01-31-2002, 11:19 AM
If that's the case, then it seems this is nothing more than a fleshed-out version of a diet that Fred Hatfield has recommended for years, and that I've used myself before.

Granted he didn't go into the biochemical specifics of the hormones and macronutrient ratios to a microgram, but the general concept is the same.

Blood&Iron
01-31-2002, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
If that's the case, then it seems this is nothing more than a fleshed-out version of a diet that Fred Hatfield has recommended for years, and that I've used myself before.

Granted he didn't go into the biochemical specifics of the hormones and macronutrient ratios to a microgram, but the general concept is the same.
In general, I am not a fan of Fred Hatfield, but that is somewhat beside the point.

I'd have to look at what Hatfield recommends to see if it is actually adheres to the current recommendations. Even if it does, Hatfield certainly did not understand the underlying hormonal effects of the diet he espoused. To say there is no difference, is like saying the the ancient greeks, who could calculate, for example, how quickly things would fall, were just as knowledable as Newton, who actually explained the underlying physics. But most people are interested only in the end result, so I suppose, if Hatfield's diet is the same, this is a moot point to most.

PowerManDL
01-31-2002, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron
I'd have to look at what Hatfield recommends to see if it is actually adheres to the current recommendations. Even if it does, Hatfield certainly did not understand the underlying hormonal effects of the diet he espoused. To say there is no difference, is like saying the the ancient greeks, who could calculate, for example, how quickly things would fall, were just as knowledable as Newton, who actually explained the underlying physics. But most people are interested only in the end result, so I suppose, if Hatfield's diet is the same, this is a moot point to most.

Of course not. But if the end result is the same, why does it matter?

I'm not one to denounce the scientific aspects of things. I like to know them because it interests me. But I'll be the first to admit that in most cases, it has little practical value once you get past a certain point.

It seems that in this case, that point has long been crossed.

Blood&Iron
01-31-2002, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by PowerManDL


Of course not. But if the end result is the same, why does it matter?

As I said, this is how most people feel. I think it does matter--but I'm weird. Anyways, we still haven't established that Hatfield's diet is the same. If you post it, perhaps we can determine whether or not this is the case.

PowerManDL
01-31-2002, 11:50 AM
Hatfield didn't entirely flesh it out, but he did set a few guidelines:

1. Calculate your daily caloric and protein needs based on body weight and BF%

2. For 3-5 days out of the week, eat 3-500 calories below this maintenance level.

3. For 2-4 days, eat 3-500 above this maintenance level.

4. For meals, he recommends a balanced ratio of macros, with the daily protein intake divided among the meals.

He never made any specific mention of pre/post-lift meals, with the exception of a low-GI + protein meal eaten about an hour before the lift.

Granted, its not the *exact* same thing, I'll give you that. But its the same framework. And done nearly 10 years ago, I might add.

Blood&Iron
01-31-2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
Hatfield didn't entirely flesh it out, but he did set a few guidelines:

1. Calculate your daily caloric and protein needs based on body weight and BF%

2. For 3-5 days out of the week, eat 3-500 calories below this maintenance level.

3. For 2-4 days, eat 3-500 above this maintenance level.

4. For meals, he recommends a balanced ratio of macros, with the daily protein intake divided among the meals.

He never made any specific mention of pre/post-lift meals, with the exception of a low-GI + protein meal eaten about an hour before the lift.

Granted, its not the *exact* same thing, I'll give you that. But its the same framework. And done nearly 10 years ago, I might add.

No, this is not the same thing as a cyclical isocaloric diet, and will not upregulate leptin expression to any significant degree--at least to the best of my knowledge.

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-31-2002, 12:46 PM
hey blood, i just read an article put together from MFW out-takes from Lyle, Elzi and some dude nicknamed oggie or ozzie or something.

it seems pretty plausible.

I read it here. (http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/articles/article18.htm)

do me a favour and check it out, tell me if it's the 'real' one, cause it looks pretty similar to what matt outlined, other than the fact that it goes into more detail.

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-31-2002, 12:47 PM
oh yeah, and they seem to focus on upping cals from carbs alone for refeeds.

Marcel
01-31-2002, 01:07 PM
Chigs - that article was great. I hadn't read that one. Thanks for the link. Did ya check out the misc.weights forum?

Marcel
01-31-2002, 01:12 PM
Shiat....after reading that article I know what the flaw of the NHE is and that's that you don't get the carbs that you need after training. It's so close to being the same just the fact that no carbs for 3 days and then 4 days on the NHE. The the bottom line is that after 3 days on low carb my workouts seem sooo long and tiring yet they feel great after a carb load the night before.:cool:

Blood&Iron
01-31-2002, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
hey blood, i just read an article put together from MFW out-takes from Lyle, Elzi and some dude nicknamed oggie or ozzie or something.

it seems pretty plausible.

I read it here. (http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/articles/article18.htm)

do me a favour and check it out, tell me if it's the 'real' one, cause it looks pretty similar to what matt outlined, other than the fact that it goes into more detail.
That's odd, as I had actually thought of trying to collate the various posts of Elzi, Lyle, and a few other people into something like this. Guess, I don't need to bother. Basically, it's just posts from MFW, by people infinitely more knowledgable than myself, so there's nothing here I would care to dispute. I was under the impression fructose should be minimized during the refeed as well as fat(20% fat on a refeed seems like an awful lot. I've been keeping mine to under about 10% and still feel a bit guilty.) You can take a look at my journal if you interested in seeing how I've approached things(Though I'm sure there are a ton of things horribly flawed in my approach.)

The_Chicken_Daddy
01-31-2002, 01:21 PM
I did check out MFW yes, Marcel, but i found the format to be quite difficult to read. I'm too used to the wbb format :)

I'm doing individual searches and weeding out good stuff, but there's so much crap circulating too. What a shame. Why do Lyle and Elzi spend their time there?

Marcel
01-31-2002, 01:22 PM
B&I - Well now you could correct them if you were so inclined:strong:

Blood&Iron
01-31-2002, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Marcel
B&I - Well now you could correct them if you were so inclined:strong:
I'm not--I know literally nothing compared to Lyle or Elzi. They would crush me like an insect without even pausing to think.

Blood&Iron
01-31-2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

I'm doing individual searches and weeding out good stuff, but there's so much crap circulating too. What a shame. Why do Lyle and Elzi spend their time there?
It's has a long and storied history--relatively speaking--and they use it as a discussion board as much as anything. Most of the useful stuff is in the link you provided. Also check Par's website at:
http://www.avantlabs.com

PowerManDL
01-31-2002, 01:42 PM
I'm about to go ask Elzi about this. We'll see what she says.

aeckhardt
01-31-2002, 02:44 PM
Par Deus what do you think about the fact that their is a citation in that article to a point when Oggie claims macronutrient breakdown has minimal effect on leptin levels during low cal. days?

Blood&Iron
01-31-2002, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by aeckhardt
Par Deus what do you think about the fact that their is a citation in that article to a point when Oggie claims macronutrient breakdown has minimal effect on leptin levels during low cal. days?
I doubt Par willll be perusing these boards for a while as the next issue of b'mfr is due out tomorrow.

I've seen Lyle say the same thing. Use whatever kind of diet you find most tolerable. The only problem with lower carb diets is they may suppress appetite to a degree that you won't be able to tell when to have your refeed(If you're going by feel.) Further, very few people can train intensely on a low-carb diet.

BTW, Oggie is not a nutritional expert, say, on the level of Lyle(He's a computer scientist--like me.) but he frequents MFW. Not sure why they included his posts. Probably because he is intelligent and has experience with a CID.

aeckhardt
01-31-2002, 02:58 PM
Good thought. So B & I your losing fat on this diet, but what about muscle. Any differences either way? I feel that if I timed my carbo intake appropriately(pre,post, and breakfast) I would be able to maintain muscle. I know this isn't going isocaoric meal by meal but it worked for me when I tried it a couple of weeks ago.

Blood&Iron
01-31-2002, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by aeckhardt
Good thought. So B & I your losing fat on this diet, but what about muscle. Any differences either way? I feel that if I timed my carbo intake appropriately(pre,post, and breakfast) I would be able to maintain muscle. I know this isn't going isocaoric meal by meal but it worked for me when I tried it a couple of weeks ago.
Look at my journal. It's very detailed(Excessively so, perhaps.)

Marcel
02-01-2002, 01:21 PM
Good stuff.:cool:

And where the heck is Wizard!??!?!?

Par Deus
02-02-2002, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by aeckhardt
Par Deus what do you think about the fact that their is a citation in that article to a point when Oggie claims macronutrient breakdown has minimal effect on leptin levels during low cal. days?


Oggie is not a legitimate reference :)

That aside, he is incorrect. There are several studies that suggest otherwise (not to mention that the physiology of leptin suggests otherwise)

Marcel
02-04-2002, 02:07 PM
Par Deus - 33/33/33 is the "best" breakdown then from the data available?

Par Deus
02-06-2002, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Marcel
Par Deus - 33/33/33 is the "best" breakdown then from the data available?


It is better than keto. Higher carbs might be even better, assuming they were fairly low GI and you could control appetite, but fat has some positive effects on test, so it is hard to say.

Marcel
02-06-2002, 10:56 AM
Par Deus - Interesting....so on sub-maintanance cal days a 33/33/33 split would be a good place to sart and you could adjust from there. Then on re-feed days you can add high-gi carbs and increase all cals. from carbs. Keep protein and fat the same on re-feed days. How does that sound?:cool:

Par Deus
02-06-2002, 04:13 PM
Basicallly.

Marcel
02-07-2002, 11:08 AM
Cool.:cool:

Paul Stagg
04-05-2002, 02:51 PM
Bump

the_hall
06-03-2002, 05:32 PM
Does anyone have a link to an article where I can actually set up a cid?

So basically a cid is aimed to achieve the same thing as a ckd (lose as much fat as possible while retaining as much lbm as possible), but it works better?

?

Blood&Iron
06-03-2002, 05:44 PM
The link you've provided doesn't work, but it looks like it's this:
http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/articles/article18.htm

Which is a good place to get started. MFW is a also a good place to look(Though, much of what's been said there is summarized int the above link.) You can also read up on leptin in back issues of Mind&Muscle(formerly Big Motherf*cker) at
www.avantlabs.com

My journal, though filled with a bunch of useless crap, also details my own experiences with a CID over the past 4 months.

EDIT: and since this thread has basically nothing to do with supps, and I'm now a moderator I'm moving it to 'Diet'

the_hall
06-03-2002, 05:54 PM
Yeah, I was about to fix it (I posted the cached version from a google search) but thats the link. If a CID is that superior to a ckd in terms of muscle maitinence i think im going to give it a try.