Cut then workout? Opposite? Huh?

[RATM1731]

Ok, so I am kinda confused here. I am trying to cut some weight (BF) but trying to gain muscle at the same time. I just eat less, and workout. By doing this am I loosing muscle insted of fat? I am totally lost on how to go about this..thanks.

[Built]

You a newbie lifter, or have you been lifting for a while?

[powerrack]

How long have you been working out? If you are a relative newbie and younger you can actually lose fat, gain muscle and gain strength all at the same time by cleaning up the diet and just start a solid basic workout program.

For me during cutting and bulking the workouts do not change much, only the diet. I still train heavy when I cut, just change the diet.

I don't know if any of this helped answer your question, let me know.

[rbar89]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[RATM1731]

I am still newbish I guess. Been lifting for..6 months probably. I'm 15 as well.

[Built]

15!

So great that you're lifting.

Just keep lifting - you'll do fine.

[powerrack]

I am still newbish I guess. Been lifting for..6 months probably. I'm 15 as well.

15, good age to start, focus on perfecting form. Sets of 8 reps are great on most exercises, it's not too high and not too low. Stick with the basic lifts, and just try to eat a balanced healthy diet most of the time, don't worry about the latest supplement fads, which I know you probably already know. Most of all just stay consistent, try to learn as much as possible, be patient and enjoy the gains to come!

[Turnip]

Whats your split like, is it a full body routine?

[SaVvY]

eating less and lifting weights will probably cause you to lose muscle

you cant build muscle without eating enough, you should always eat when your hungry, and keep it clean, look up healthy foods and what a bodybuilding diet should be

to lose fat you need to do cardio, but its best to 'bulk' and gain muscle before looking to drop body fat - the more muscle you have, the more calories you will burn, which basically makes 'cutting' (losing body fat) easier

[Jordanbcool]

Hes a noob. His body will build muscle even in a deficit. It only happens for so long though. His body is reacting to a new stimulus.

Its called adaptation.

-jordan

[SaVvY]

Hes a noob. His body will build muscle even in a deficit. It only happens for so long though. His body is reacting to a new stimulus.

Its called adaptation.

-jordan
the body will adapt to pretty much anything if you allow it to, but you cant build anything if you eat too little, it does not matter of your experience

[ShockBoxer]

eating less and lifting weights will probably cause you to lose muscle

I'm 30, had never seriously lifted, and was just a sack of 35% body fat **** at 185. I cut for six months, blew my numbers through the roof, and grew each measurement by at least an inch... while dropping 30 pounds.

On a dirty, dirty sugar laden cut.

[Built]

eating less and lifting weights will probably cause you to lose muscle

Really? How come?




you cant build muscle without eating enough, you should always eat when your hungry, and keep it clean, look up healthy foods and what a bodybuilding diet should be

to lose fat you need to do cardio,

You're really not clear on the whole "cutting" thing, are you SaVvY? Cardio isn't how you lose fat - heavy lifting during a caloric deficit is how you lose fat. Cardio is how you lose muscle and fat.


ut its best to 'bulk' and gain muscle before looking to drop body fat - the more muscle you have, the more calories you will burn, which basically makes 'cutting' (losing body fat) easier

This part is correct.

[SaVvY]

Really? How come?




You're really not clear on the whole "cutting" thing, are you SaVvY? Cardio isn't how you lose fat - heavy lifting during a caloric deficit is how you lose fat. Cardio is how you lose muscle and fat.



This part is correct.
you would probably lose some muscle because lifting weights takes energy, without enough food cortisol levels will be high - muscle will be broken down

i am very clear on cutting - cardio is how you lose fat, heavy lifting without eating enough is pretty much pointless, you cant gain muscle because you have no food to do so, theres no building blocks to build anything

heavy weights is far too intense for body fat loss anyway, it will only increase the metabolism, which will not help with keeping your muscle, and give you much less chance of gaining any - the more muscle you have, the easier cutting is

cardio should be done on the days your not lifting, as far from weights as possible, and it should be done at an easy pace, for a long time (1 hour) - this will drop body fat, but it will not raise your metabolism

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

You haven't had any experience with heavy lifting on a cut, have you?

[Jordanbcool]

Savvy your trying very hard to justify something that you dont know enough to talk about....alot of the points you made....Thats just not how it works at all dude.

Your ideas arent whats flawed its your reasoning behind it that is.

-jordan

[Songsangnim]

(1) you would probably lose some muscle because lifting weights takes energy, without enough food cortisol levels will be high - muscle will be broken down

(2) i am very clear on cutting - cardio is how you lose fat, heavy lifting without eating enough is pretty much pointless, you cant gain muscle because you have no food to do so, theres no building blocks to build anything

(3) heavy weights is far too intense for body fat loss anyway, it will only increase the metabolism, which will not help with keeping your muscle, and give you much less chance of gaining any - the more muscle you have, the easier cutting is

(4) cardio should be done on the days your not lifting, as far from weights as possible, and it should be done at an easy pace, for a long time (1 hour) - this will drop body fat, but it will not raise your metabolism


(numbers are mine)

Oh dear oh dear where to start?

1. You may lose a little muscle, but heavy lifting "encourages" the body to hang on to as much muscle as possible.

2. Cardio is an extremely inefficient way of losing fat ...you lose fat faster by diet and lifting.

3. See number 1.

4. That would be a total waste of time and energy. Not to mention that's inaccurate.

[JustLost]

you would probably lose some muscle because lifting weights takes energy, without enough food cortisol levels will be high - muscle will be broken down


It's pretty well established that heavy lifting helps maintain muscle mass on a cut. Several of the people who've replied to this thread (including me) have verified this by direct experience. Look at Built's pics and ask yourself if she just might know something about cutting and maintaining muscle.

Your argument about muscle being broken down actually applies to cardio more than it does to lifting.



i am very clear on cutting - cardio is how you lose fat, heavy lifting without eating enough is pretty much pointless, you cant gain muscle because you have no food to do so, theres no building blocks to build anything


Cardio is not how you lose fat -- a calorie deficit is how you lose fat. Cardio is one possible way to create a calorie deficit. Guess what? So is weight lifting.



cardio should be done on the days your not lifting, as far from weights as possible, and it should be done at an easy pace, for a long time (1 hour) - this will drop body fat, but it will not raise your metabolism

Keeping metabolism high is one of the major challenges of cutting. A caloric deficit tends to lower metabolism, while weight training offsets this effect by increasing metabolism.

[SaVvY]

Savvy your trying very hard to justify something that you dont know enough to talk about....alot of the points you made....Thats just not how it works at all dude.

Your ideas arent whats flawed its your reasoning behind it that is.

-jordan
it is how it works, all my tutors in college agreed on all of what i say, years of research ive done myself also goes towards my opinions - theres nothing wrong with what im saying or my reasons imo

cardio is the best way to lose fat, if it wasnt nobody would do it, this is very well known - you cant lose any body fat through diet alone, none at all, you have to do exercise, and the most efficient form of fat loss without raising the metabolism is less intense, lengthy cardio sessions / the most efficent way of fat loss with increased metabolism is shorter, more intense cardio sessions

raising the metabolism will burn off calories, which will prevent fat storage, but it wont help so much with keeping / gaining muscle (although there is times when a raised metabolism is a good idea), its a better idea to do less intense, lengthy cardio sessions - this is the way to gain muscle / drop body fat at the same time

lifting weights is done to gain muscle, gain strength, or gain endurance, it can lose body fat but thats not what its general aimed at because its not the most effective way to go about this

if i dont know what im doing / dont know what im talking about, how is it i can cut and get ripped (see attachment) in a couple of months from an average amount of body fat, without steroids, while still gaining muscle? an then bulk for 6 months and gain 70lbs while increasing body fat by only 1%, without steroids? as well as throughout this time literally double (or more) all my lifts?

surely i would have to have some of the best genetics on the planet - however before i started lifting i was a skinny but fat kid, with very little strength

[Built]

it is how it works, all my tutors in college agreed on all of what i say, years of research ive done myself also goes towards my opinions - theres nothing wrong with what im saying or my reasons imo

cardio is the best way to lose fat, if it wasnt nobody would do it, this is very well known - you cant lose any body fat through diet alone, none at all, you have to do exercise, and the most efficient form of fat loss without raising the metabolism is less intense, lengthy cardio sessions / the most efficent way of fat loss with increased metabolism is shorter, more intense cardio sessions

You CAN'T be serious.

You're on this board, and you STILL think this way?

Cardio is probably the WORST way to drop fat.

It's not even all that effective at dropping WEIGHT (ie fat AND muscle).

You lose WEIGHT in a caloric deficit.

You lose FAT if you can somehow convince your body to hang onto that pesky muscle, and instead drop fat.

Cardio does NOT do this. Heavy lifting DOES.

That's one of the many reasons why "high reps for cutting" is a myth.

<= these abs were the result of very little cardio.

To get this lean, I was squatting triples @ 185 lbs (that's a lot for me - I weighed 130 lbs at the time). Got me to the leanest I've ever been in my life with the caloric deficit I was running, and with virtually no loss of LBM. Keep in mind I'm an unassisted, middle-aged female. I have the worst of all worlds in this game, and still, I hung onto my mass by carefully limiting cardio and managing my diet while keeping my workouts short and heavy.



raising the metabolism will burn off calories, which will prevent fat storage, but it wont help so much with keeping / gaining muscle (although there is times when a raised metabolism is a good idea), its a better idea to do less intense, lengthy cardio sessions - this is the way to gain muscle / drop body fat at the same time
lengthy cardio to gain muscle and drop body fat ...

WOW.




lifting weights is done to gain muscle, gain strength, or gain endurance, it can lose body fat but thats not what its general aimed at because its not the most effective way to go about this
It is THE most effective way to go about this - the best result, the least work.




if i dont know what im doing / dont know what im talking about, how is it i can cut and get ripped (see attachment) in a couple of months from an average amount of body fat, without steroids, while still gaining muscle? an then bulk for 6 months and gain 70lbs while increasing body fat by only 1%, without steroids? as well as throughout this time literally double (or more) all my lifts?

surely i would have to have some of the best genetics on the planet - however before i started lifting i was a skinny but fat kid, with very little strength

You're ripped, but you're not particularly big. I bet I could keep more mass on you if you trusted me.

Read this article. (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=214rip2) It turned everything I KNEW was true on its ear when I first read it - and following this advice changed my life. After having ZERO success leaning out doing cardio (got up to 40% bodyfat when I was jogging 10k 3x a week) I finally leaned out through diet and heavy lifting for the first time in my life at the age of 42.

If this works on a formerly fat, middle-aged broad who used to take type II diabetes meds, it'll work for ANYBODY.

[Jordanbcool]

it is how it works, all my tutors in college agreed on all of what i say, years of research ive done myself also goes towards my opinions - theres nothing wrong with what im saying or my reasons imo

cardio is the best way to lose fat, if it wasnt nobody would do it, this is very well known - you cant lose any body fat through diet alone, none at all, you have to do exercise, and the most efficient form of fat loss without raising the metabolism is less intense, lengthy cardio sessions / the most efficent way of fat loss with increased metabolism is shorter, more intense cardio sessions

raising the metabolism will burn off calories, which will prevent fat storage, but it wont help so much with keeping / gaining muscle (although there is times when a raised metabolism is a good idea), its a better idea to do less intense, lengthy cardio sessions - this is the way to gain muscle / drop body fat at the same time

lifting weights is done to gain muscle, gain strength, or gain endurance, it can lose body fat but thats not what its general aimed at because its not the most effective way to go about this

if i dont know what im doing / dont know what im talking about, how is it i can cut and get ripped (see attachment) in a couple of months from an average amount of body fat, without steroids, while still gaining muscle? an then bulk for 6 months and gain 70lbs while increasing body fat by only 1%, without steroids? as well as throughout this time literally double (or more) all my lifts?

surely i would have to have some of the best genetics on the planet - however before i started lifting i was a skinny but fat kid, with very little strength

I'll respond to everything in order as built did. Maybe if multiple people answer each question you will understand it better.

1) There are big differences between opinion and fact. Opinions are just that, facts are totally different and can be backed up with evidence.

2) The best way to lose fat is to diet. Cardio, fatloss pills and various stimulants only help to lose fat. Without a sufficent caloric deficit your body will not burn fat. Even with steroids you cannot burn fat without dieting. Cardio does burn calories and it does raise your metabolism. However you'd have to run for hours on end to create a deficit big enough to burn alot of fat. So again, cardio is secondary to diet. The research you have done is flawed. There are hundreds of success stories/research/evidence when people never ran a mile and lost a ton of fat/body weight.

3) The comparisons between low and high intensity training make no sense. Your trying to compare HIIT with low intensity cardio when they are two polar opposites.

4) Low intensity cardio will spare muscle mass as your body will dip into fat stores. However the time you'd spend walking around would be totally wasted because the fatloss would be so small. You'd basically be wasting your time doing pretty much nothing. The ONLY time I did low intensity cardio was when I was on an extreme diet that cut calories very low. I did not want to lose muscle so I did it this way. On a normal cut though, walking is a very very poor way to lose weight; unless you have yearS to devote to it.

5) Weight training is a very effective way to lose fat and gain muscle (or atleast keep it). Thats all there is to say about that.

6) I've seen people make better gains then this. Its called noob gains. I did it, and so does everyone else. Once you start lifting for a few years the results slow down. I doubt you doubled ALL of your lifts or gained that little bodyfat while bulking. Your measurements are wrong or you are simply lying.

Im not making this post to degrade you I'm just poiting out the flaws in your logic. I've made similar mistakes in the past but eventually I realized everyone was right and I'm alot smarter for it. Again, you BASIC ideas arent whats wrong. The reasoning behind it are.

-jordan

[powerrack]

How's cardio so effective on fat loss? It's way overrated, you ever see the people in the cardio room day in and day out, some look ok, but a lot of them are not getting much results, they look like ****!

Lengthy cardio sessions for me basically is nothing to me, unless I'm training to be a marathon runner or need it for some other sport. To get lean, while keeping muscle, it's all diet dependant along with training heavy. I"m all for some cardio but it's way overrated.

[JustLost]

if i dont know what im doing / dont know what im talking about, how is it i can cut and get ripped (see attachment) in a couple of months from an average amount of body fat, without steroids, while still gaining muscle? an then bulk for 6 months and gain 70lbs while increasing body fat by only 1%, without steroids? as well as throughout this time literally double (or more) all my lifts?



Hmmm... if one way works for you, and another way works for other people, what can we deduce?

Could it possibly be that there's more than one way?

I think what's setting people off is that you're making huge generalizations that don't hold true for everyone. And, frankly, a lot of the stuff you're saying is based on outmoded ideas:



to lose fat you need to do cardio, but its best to 'bulk' and gain muscle before looking to drop body fat - the more muscle you have, the more calories you will burn, which basically makes 'cutting' (losing body fat) easier


That's exactly what everyone was saying ten or fifteen years ago. The cardio think has already been beaten to death, but let's talk about muscle mass a bit. How many extra calories per day will, say, ten pounds of muscle burn? How much extra fat will the average person put on along with those ten pounds of muscle? Can you answer those questions in a quantitative way?

The "bulk first or cut" decision depends on a lot of variable, primarily the individual's bodyfat level. The fatter a person is, the more fat they will put on when they bulk.

[Built]

Hmmm... if one way works for you, and another way works for other people, what can we deduce?

Could it possibly be that there's more than one way?

Indeed.

There are a LOT of things that work. Some work better than others.

And some things work in SPITE of what you're doing.

[SaVvY]

I'll respond to everything in order as built did. Maybe if multiple people answer each question you will understand it better.

1) There are big differences between opinion and fact. Opinions are just that, facts are totally different and can be backed up with evidence.

2) The best way to lose fat is to diet. Cardio, fatloss pills and various stimulants only help to lose fat. Without a sufficent caloric deficit your body will not burn fat. Even with steroids you cannot burn fat without dieting. Cardio does burn calories and it does raise your metabolism. However you'd have to run for hours on end to create a deficit big enough to burn alot of fat. So again, cardio is secondary to diet. The research you have done is flawed. There are hundreds of success stories/research/evidence when people never ran a mile and lost a ton of fat/body weight.

3) The comparisons between low and high intensity training make no sense. Your trying to compare HIIT with low intensity cardio when they are two polar opposites.

4) Low intensity cardio will spare muscle mass as your body will dip into fat stores. However the time you'd spend walking around would be totally wasted because the fatloss would be so small. You'd basically be wasting your time doing pretty much nothing. The ONLY time I did low intensity cardio was when I was on an extreme diet that cut calories very low. I did not want to lose muscle so I did it this way. On a normal cut though, walking is a very very poor way to lose weight; unless you have yearS to devote to it.

5) Weight training is a very effective way to lose fat and gain muscle (or atleast keep it). Thats all there is to say about that.

6) I've seen people make better gains then this. Its called noob gains. I did it, and so does everyone else. Once you start lifting for a few years the results slow down. I doubt you doubled ALL of your lifts or gained that little bodyfat while bulking. Your measurements are wrong or you are simply lying.

Im not making this post to degrade you I'm just poiting out the flaws in your logic. I've made similar mistakes in the past but eventually I realized everyone was right and I'm alot smarter for it. Again, you BASIC ideas arent whats wrong. The reasoning behind it are.

-jordan
theres no point in arguing about things, opinions wont change, and there just opinions at the end of the day

other people and you have made better gains than this? can you give details of these gains please - ive talked to many, many people about this, including many top strongmen, and ive came across nobody with gains like these, if they used steroids or not

i have doubled or more all my lifts, and my measurements are not wrong / i am not lying

[Built]

Not arguing that you got success, and the old-school myths die HARD.

Like I said earlier, lots of stuff works. Some stuff works BETTER.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified.

In economics, philosophy, or other social sciences, analysis based on opinions is referred to as normative analysis (what ought to be), as opposed to positive analysis, which is based on scientific observation (what materially is). In mathematics and logic there can be no opinions about some claims, equations, and arguments, because often these kinds of statements are either valid or invalid, and true or false, and not open to contradicting opinions.
In psychology, egocentrism is the characteristic of regarding oneself and one's own opinions or interests as most important. The term derives from the Greek eg&#244;, meaning "I." An egocentric person has no theory of mind, cannot "put himself in other people's shoes," and believes everyone sees what he sees (or that what he sees in some way exceeds what others see.):)

[Built]

theres no point in arguing about things, opinions wont change, and there just opinions at the end of the day

other people and you have made better gains than this? can you give details of these gains please - ive talked to many, many people about this, including many top strongmen, and ive came across nobody with gains like these, if they used steroids or not

i have doubled or more all my lifts, and my measurements are not wrong / i am not lying

...and it's not just opinions. We're basing our arguments on peer-reviewed scientific journal articles, books like UD2.0 and PSMF, and the experience of ourselves and of others who have tried this both ways.

[Jordanbcool]

...and it's not just opinions. We're basing our arguments on peer-reviewed scientific journal articles, books like UD2.0 and PSMF, and the experience of ourselves and of others who have tried this both ways.

Exactly. I've purchased both PSMF and UD2 books and I've used them both with success. I recommend atleast buy the UD2 book as the information inside pays for itself 10 fold. The UD2 will explain the topics your confused about in full detail, savvy.

If you dont listen to me atleast listen to others (they know much much more then I do). They know what they are talking about, we dont go around making it our life long mission to post bad info. Look at the stickies if you dont believe us. Ask a mod, do some kind of 3rd party scientific research. Its really not hard to find information that backs up everything we say on this forum, in books, in other forums, hell even in bodybuilding magazines.

Just clear your head for a sec. and listen. We're only trying to improve your knowledge so that you'll better yourself and your body in the long run.

-jordan

[CODmasterJYK]

You're really not clear on the whole "cutting" thing, are you SaVvY? Cardio isn't how you lose fat - heavy lifting during a caloric deficit is how you lose fat. Cardio is how you lose muscle and fat.


Really, do u actually lose muscle when u do cardio, Built? :omg:

I thought that it only helps lose fat? Bummer... So should I just not do any Cardio then? Or should I do it on my rest days? what should I do. I've ran like 6 miles a day before.

[Built]

The bigger deal with cardio is that it does nothing to preserve LBM and it doesn't create that much of a caloric deficit.

That being said, it DOES create SOME caloric deficit, and it IS good for your heart. Do a little. Just don't rely upon it to lean out. For that purpose, it's a small player at best.

I add in a little cardio as my cut progresses to afford me a small amount of dietary flexibility (ie I'll go for a half hour walk if it means an extra tablespoon of peanut butter that day). And I vary it between SS and HIIT.

[CODmasterJYK]

wait so, wat if I run 2 miles on my rest day? Can I do that, or will I lose muscle? See, I want to improve my speed too.

Also, I naturally have to do a lot of walking because I don't have a car... is that considered cardio? If it is, then should I not be running because my walking already makes up for it?

[Built]

You wanna do cardio to increase your endurance, go ahead. Feed it to make sure you don't go into a caloric deficit from it.

You wanna get lean - look to your diet and your training, not your cardio.

[CODmasterJYK]

can't I do all three simultaneously: cardio, get lean, and increase muscle mass? sry I'm being a little annoying about this, but my mile time is horrible and I'm thinking of joining the track team next year. I also have to lose a lot of weight, and I also wanna get stronger.

[Built]

can't I do all three simultaneously: cardio, get lean, and increase muscle mass?

Unless you are in the "newbie honeymoon" period, doubtful.



sry I'm being a little annoying about this, but my mile time is horrible and I'm thinking of joining the track team next year. I also have to lose a lot of weight, and I also wanna get stronger.

Okay, in order:

1. FIX YOUR DIET
2. LIFT HEAVY
3. Work on building your endurance base, but incorporate HIIT

[SaVvY]

built that picture is from a few months back, im now over 250lbs

its not that im not taking in whats being said here, its just all of what ive previously read on the subject says cardio and diet, all my tutors said cardio and diet when they have decades of experience and tons of qualifications, i cant find his full routine but didnt even arnold do cardio most days of the week? an the current best bodybuilder, big ronnie coleman, in his dvd you see him doing cardio morning and night + hes doing low intensity for 1 hour

it makes perfect sense that weight lifting will raise the metabolism, while increasing muscle mass, so it will lose body fat - im not sure this is as effective as cardio, but im seeing the point, maybe im too old school i dont know (even though im not old!), cheers for letting me know about this whatevers best, im reading up on it right now

personally with the way i train, weight lifting to lose fat would never work, because i dont train 4-5 days a week like most, sometimes i will only train once a week, 3 times is probably the most i train, with one being just forearms/grip - so im simply not active enough.

Also i dont agree with eating less than you need, i would never do this while trying to build muscle and strength, and im always trying to build muscle and strength - i also feel that i will get to the point where im so big / have so much muscle that having low body fat will be made easy because my metabolism will end up being so fast.

Increasing the metabolism to me is a bad thing for gaining size, it makes me constantly hungry / i feel the more often you are hungry the more potential gains you are losing, so if in total for the day im hungry for 20-30 minutes, i feel i could have lost half a pound gain, if i were hungry in total for 1 hour, i could have lost 1 pound gain. I try to avoid this at all costs, and always try to eat as soon as i get hungry. Another thing about it is the food bill is HUGE, and i cant afford it.

I try to keep everything as slow as possible (workout days are different), drinking lots of milk to slow down digestion etc always giving my body a constant supply of energy, and all the tools it needs to create more size and strength.

p.s jordan - have you or anybody else you know of gained more than 70lbs in 6 months with 1% increase in body fat? if so give details please

[Marnie]

you would probably lose some muscle because lifting weights takes energy, without enough food cortisol levels will be high - muscle will be broken down

i am very clear on cutting - cardio is how you lose fat, heavy lifting without eating enough is pretty much pointless, you cant gain muscle because you have no food to do so, theres no building blocks to build anything

heavy weights is far too intense for body fat loss anyway, it will only increase the metabolism, which will not help with keeping your muscle, and give you much less chance of gaining any - the more muscle you have, the easier cutting is

cardio should be done on the days your not lifting, as far from weights as possible, and it should be done at an easy pace, for a long time (1 hour) - this will drop body fat, but it will not raise your metabolism
Kid, listen to Built, she KNOWS what she's on about. Her methods have worked great for me, I've certainly not lost any strength.

[Marnie]

built that picture is from a few months back, im now over 250lbs

its not that im not taking in whats being said here, its just all of what ive previously read on the subject says cardio and diet, all my tutors said cardio and diet when they have decades of experience and tons of qualifications, i cant find his full routine but didnt even arnold do cardio most days of the week? an the current best bodybuilder, big ronnie coleman, in his dvd you see him doing cardio morning and night + hes doing low intensity for 1 hour

it makes perfect sense that weight lifting will raise the metabolism, while increasing muscle mass, so it will lose body fat - im not sure this is as effective as cardio, but im seeing the point, maybe im too old school i dont know (even though im not old!), cheers for letting me know about this whatevers best, im reading up on it right now

personally with the way i train, weight lifting to lose fat would never work, because i dont train 4-5 days a week like most, sometimes i will only train once a week, 3 times is probably the most i train, with one being just forearms/grip - so im simply not active enough.

Also i dont agree with eating less than you need, i would never do this while trying to build muscle and strength, and im always trying to build muscle and strength - i also feel that i will get to the point where im so big / have so much muscle that having low body fat will be made easy because my metabolism will end up being so fast.

Increasing the metabolism to me is a bad thing for gaining size, it makes me constantly hungry / i feel the more often you are hungry the more potential gains you are losing, so if in total for the day im hungry for 20-30 minutes, i feel i could have lost half a pound gain, if i were hungry in total for 1 hour, i could have lost 1 pound gain. I try to avoid this at all costs, and always try to eat as soon as i get hungry. Another thing about it is the food bill is HUGE, and i cant afford it.

I try to keep everything as slow as possible (workout days are different), drinking lots of milk to slow down digestion etc always giving my body a constant supply of energy, and all the tools it needs to create more size and strength.

p.s jordan - have you or anybody else you know of gained more than 70lbs in 6 months with 1% increase in body fat? if so give details please
Ronnie Coleman is on ****loads of steroids, and looks like a freak. I wouldn't copy anything he does, as his body will be SCREWED by the time he's 60, due to all the steroids and the stress that places on your body.

[Prodigy06]

you cant lose any body fat through diet alone

That's hilarious. But at the same time makes me want to cry.


Edit: Anyway to add something, I learned the hard way back in the day that cardio alone and a tight restriction on calories is a very, very bad idea. So what ever you do to try to loose BF don't do that. Never underestimate the powers of lifting and a good diet.

[SaVvY]

That's hilarious. But at the same time makes me want to cry.


Edit: Anyway to add something, I learned the hard way back in the day that cardio alone and a tight restriction on calories is a very, very bad idea. So what ever you do to try to loose BF don't do that. Never underestimate the powers of lifting and a good diet.
you may find it hilarious but its the truth, diet can make it possible to drop body fat, but it cant actually do it, its the exercise that burns the body fat (just walking around is exercise btw)

[SaVvY]

Ronnie Coleman is on ****loads of steroids, and looks like a freak. I wouldn't copy anything he does, as his body will be SCREWED by the time he's 60, due to all the steroids and the stress that places on your body.
this is a bodybuilding site is it not? ronnie coleman is the top bodybuilder / has been for many years

[SaVvY]

Kid, listen to Built, she KNOWS what she's on about. Her methods have worked great for me, I've certainly not lost any strength.
im just giving my opinion, i have took in everything she has said - ive not lost any strength either, infact, i gain strength on every exercise, every workout

[Jordanbcool]

built that picture is from a few months back, im now over 250lbs

its not that im not taking in whats being said here, its just all of what ive previously read on the subject says cardio and diet, all my tutors said cardio and diet when they have decades of experience and tons of qualifications, i cant find his full routine but didnt even arnold do cardio most days of the week? an the current best bodybuilder, big ronnie coleman, in his dvd you see him doing cardio morning and night + hes doing low intensity for 1 hour

it makes perfect sense that weight lifting will raise the metabolism, while increasing muscle mass, so it will lose body fat - im not sure this is as effective as cardio, but im seeing the point, maybe im too old school i dont know (even though im not old!), cheers for letting me know about this whatevers best, im reading up on it right now

personally with the way i train, weight lifting to lose fat would never work, because i dont train 4-5 days a week like most, sometimes i will only train once a week, 3 times is probably the most i train, with one being just forearms/grip - so im simply not active enough.

Also i dont agree with eating less than you need, i would never do this while trying to build muscle and strength, and im always trying to build muscle and strength - i also feel that i will get to the point where im so big / have so much muscle that having low body fat will be made easy because my metabolism will end up being so fast.

Increasing the metabolism to me is a bad thing for gaining size, it makes me constantly hungry / i feel the more often you are hungry the more potential gains you are losing, so if in total for the day im hungry for 20-30 minutes, i feel i could have lost half a pound gain, if i were hungry in total for 1 hour, i could have lost 1 pound gain. I try to avoid this at all costs, and always try to eat as soon as i get hungry. Another thing about it is the food bill is HUGE, and i cant afford it.

I try to keep everything as slow as possible (workout days are different), drinking lots of milk to slow down digestion etc always giving my body a constant supply of energy, and all the tools it needs to create more size and strength.

p.s jordan - have you or anybody else you know of gained more than 70lbs in 6 months with 1% increase in body fat? if so give details please


Cardio is not bad. We are not saying that. It HAS a place in cutting, its just not how you/they lose most of their weight. Like I said its to supplement at best.

*sigh* I hate sounding like a broken record. Unless you are a noob you cannot gain muscle while cutting (if done right you can gain 1-3 pounds at most). Of course there are exceptions to this but they are far and between and consist of great genetics or drugs. Its a simple fact of science, muscle takes ENERGY to make. Your body uses CALORIES for energy NOT fat cells (for making muscle atleast). Your body will not use fat for muscle building unless your a noob. Your body dosent work that way, it likes holding onto fat. For your body fat is essential for your well-being and survival. Why do you think its so hard to cut? Just think about it dude.

You are confusing bulking with cutting. If you want to lose fat you will eat less then you need, you have to do something to FORCE your body to use that stubborn fat. If you want to get bigger/stronger bulking is where to do it. You can easily gain strength on cuts with the right routine but diet is the key to muscle building/fat loss.

Just because your hungry dosent mean your starving. On bulks and cuts my appetite if through the roof but I'm easily getting 4-5k calories on bulks. You have a good idea about training only 3 days a week and eating foods with slow digestion but your totally over-thinking your metabolism. Again, the main factor is diet then activity.

You cannot gain 70 pounds in 6 months on noob gains with steroids with only 1% bodyfat. Your measurements are wrong or you are lying. Dont tell me I dont know what Im talking about either. Your probably gained 20-30 pounds depending on your eating. Unless you gained a bunch of fat that much weight in that little time is un-attainable. I just dont know what else you want me to say, I dont believe you so just stop trying. You expect me to believe you gained 70 pounds of pure MUSCLE?! Not only that without any fat gain, AND without using drugs!!?? Even ronnie coleman on steroids cant do that and he has the best damned drugs/training/diet/genetics in the entire world.

-jordan

[JustLost]

Indeed.

There are a LOT of things that work. Some work better than others.

And some things work in SPITE of what you're doing.


Exactly. There are so many variables that it's easy to come to erroneous conclusions. An example using Real Data[tm]:

* I've been eating Ben and Jerry's ice cream
* I've been losing fat, while retaining muscles mass and strength

therefore

* everyone should eat Ben & Jerry's on a cut

[JustLost]

this is a bodybuilding site is it not? ronnie coleman is the top bodybuilder / has been for many years


Did you fail to understand the point about steroids? What's optimally for someone who's chemically enhanced isn't always what's optimal for a natural.

For that matter, "bodybuilding" doesn't automatically mean "Weider/IFBB-style idiocy". As Marnie indicated, some people like to bodybuild in a more rational, healthy mode.


you may find it hilarious but its the truth, diet can make it possible to drop body fat, but it cant actually do it, its the exercise that burns the body fat (just walking around is exercise btw)

Technically, yes, activity of some sort is what causes bodyfat to be burned. But all that requires is a caloric deficit, no matter how it's created, whether by decreasing food intake, increasing energy expenditure, or both. So yes, I do find your statement hilarious.

[JustLost]

*sigh* I hate sounding like a broken record.


You only sound like a broken record because you're trying to refute a broken record. ;) The guy sounds like he had some sort of religious experience while reading a Covert Bailey book, and now he's out to enlighten the world to the need for cardio.

[Prodigy06]

you may find it hilarious but its the truth, diet can make it possible to drop body fat, but it cant actually do it, its the exercise that burns the body fat (just walking around is exercise btw)

Is sleep exercise too then? Most people think of "exercise" as running etc.. and we're talking about cardio here not just sitting there watching TV (which does burn calories btw).
I'm not trying to say that cardio is a horrible thing I'm just saying that diet, above all else is the most important thing. And yes, you can loose fat just by eating well alone.

[Built]

its not that im not taking in whats being said here, its just all of what ive previously read on the subject says cardio and diet, all my tutors said cardio and diet when they have decades of experience and tons of qualifications, i cant find his full routine but didnt even arnold do cardio most days of the week?

I know. I hear it all the time, too. I've had personal trainers with kines degrees at my GYM ask me what I was doing because the stuff THEY'RE doing wasn't working.

I did all this cardio stuff for years when I was fat. It didn't work. It just made me hungry.




an the current best bodybuilder, big ronnie coleman, in his dvd you see him doing cardio morning and night + hes doing low intensity for 1 hour
Assisted. The rules are very different for assisted athletes.




it makes perfect sense that weight lifting will raise the metabolism, while increasing muscle mass, so it will lose body fat - im not sure this is as effective as cardio,
Gotta stop you right here.

Use DIET for weight loss. Use lifting to convince the body to hold muscle. It will therfore HAVE to drop muscle, because on reduced calories, there's simply not enough resources to support BOTH.

This has been the "magic bullet" in asymptotically approaching my physique goals. Don't think "exercise off fat", think "diet off weight, train the muscle to stick around".




but im seeing the point, maybe im too old school i dont know (even though im not old!), cheers for letting me know about this whatevers best, im reading up on it right now

personally with the way i train, weight lifting to lose fat would never work, because i dont train 4-5 days a week like most, sometimes i will only train once a week, 3 times is probably the most i train, with one being just forearms/grip - so im simply not active enough.

Me neither. See above. I train 3/4 of an hour four days a week. And this doesn't change from bulking to cutting - it's a given. I don't consider it part of the caloric deficit equation, because it's always there.




Also i dont agree with eating less than you need, i would never do this while trying to build muscle and strength,
No, you would not. That would be "bulking" - you need EXTRA calories for this.




and im always trying to build muscle and strength - i also feel that i will get to the point where im so big / have so much muscle that having low body fat will be made easy because my metabolism will end up being so fast.

Increasing the metabolism to me is a bad thing for gaining size, it makes me constantly hungry / i feel the more often you are hungry the more potential gains you are losing, so if in total for the day im hungry for 20-30 minutes, i feel i could have lost half a pound gain, if i were hungry in total for 1 hour, i could have lost 1 pound gain. I try to avoid this at all costs, and always try to eat as soon as i get hungry. Another thing about it is the food bill is HUGE, and i cant afford it.

I try to keep everything as slow as possible (workout days are different), drinking lots of milk to slow down digestion etc always giving my body a constant supply of energy, and all the tools it needs to create more size and strength.

p.s jordan - have you or anybody else you know of gained more than 70lbs in 6 months with 1% increase in body fat? if so give details please

Okay, this one is really interesting.

I get my body DEXA scanned twice a year - once at the end of a bulk, then again at the end of a cut, so I KNOW how much muscle and fat I move around during these periods.

Last bulk I gained 17 lbs to gain about 4 lbs of muscle overall.

I realize I have the WORST of all possible worlds - I'm female, unassisted, over forty, and no longer in my newbie honeymoon, but even I was astonishe at how much of my gain was fat. Next bulk I will NOT go so high in the cals.

I would like to know how you tested your gains - gaining more than 2 lbs of LBM in a month is really spectacular gains for a male. Gaining more than 10 lbs of LBM a month, 6 months in a row - I've never even seen this on assisted athletes.

[CODmasterJYK]

Wait so built. When you're cutting, you cannot get more toned and you cannot get stronger? So you get more toned and stronger only when you bulk, but when you cut and lift weights at the sametime, you're lifting to persuade the muscles to stay?

Is that what you mean?

O man... cuz I have to lose weight and also build muscle.

[ShockBoxer]

Wait so built. When you're cutting, you cannot get more toned and you cannot get stronger? So you get more toned and stronger only when you bulk, but when you cut and lift weights at the sametime, you're lifting to persuade the muscles to stay?

Is that what you mean?

O man... cuz I have to lose weight and also build muscle.

Then what you want is recomposition, and you should inquire about it at www.bodyrecomposition.com (after reading everything there).

[CODmasterJYK]

So I should cut by dieting... (but while I'm cutting I won't gain muscle)... then when my bf% is 10-12%, for 2 weeks I should eat at maintenance level, then I should bulk until I get up to 15 %?

But bottom line, I don't gain muscle mass when I cut right. See my BF% is approximately 15.97% (according to probably innacurate tape measurements of my neck and my stomach). So I guess I should cut until I get to 10 % BF%. and then for 2 weeks, eat at maintenance level. Then start bulking until I get to 15 %. But hey, How long will it take for me to cut from 15.97% all the way to 10%?

[ShockBoxer]

How about each time you hit the gym you lift heavy and with great intensity while you're on your cut. Lift like you're bulking and eat like you're cutting. I think you might end up surprising yourself with what happens.

[CODmasterJYK]

aright, dude. thanks a lot man. I really appreciate it.

[Built]

So I should cut by dieting... (but while I'm cutting I won't gain muscle)... then when my bf% is 10-12%, for 2 weeks I should eat at maintenance level, then I should bulk until I get up to 15 %?

But bottom line, I don't gain muscle mass when I cut right. See my BF% is approximately 15.97% (according to probably innacurate tape measurements of my neck and my stomach). So I guess I should cut until I get to 10 % BF%. and then for 2 weeks, eat at maintenance level. Then start bulking until I get to 15 %. But hey, How long will it take for me to cut from 15.97% all the way to 10%?


Figure out how much fat you have now, and how many pounds of fat you'll have at 10%.

Plan to drop no faster than a pound a week.

[Jordanbcool]

So I should cut by dieting... (but while I'm cutting I won't gain muscle)... then when my bf% is 10-12%, for 2 weeks I should eat at maintenance level, then I should bulk until I get up to 15 %?

But bottom line, I don't gain muscle mass when I cut right. See my BF% is approximately 15.97% (according to probably innacurate tape measurements of my neck and my stomach). So I guess I should cut until I get to 10 % BF%. and then for 2 weeks, eat at maintenance level. Then start bulking until I get to 15 %. But hey, How long will it take for me to cut from 15.97% all the way to 10%?

I used a normal carb cycling proposed by built to cut down from 15% till 13%. Then I did a PSMF to catch up (dropped down to 11%), then did a UD2 for the remaining 1%. All in all it was about a 10 pound fat loss. Took me forever to do it though because of how many mistakes I made. Dont forget to budget ATLEAST an extra month longer then you plan on cutting. That way you leave room for failure while ending up actually reaching your goal on time.

-jordan

[RedSpikeyThing]

theres no point in arguing about things, opinions wont change, and there just opinions at the end of the day


It's not so much opinion as scientific research. Your ideas are correct based on the information known 10-15 years ago. More current research, however, has shown that to be incorrect.

[Songsangnim]

you may find it hilarious but its the truth, diet can make it possible to drop body fat, but it cant actually do it, its the exercise that burns the body fat (just walking around is exercise btw)

So if maintence is 3000 calories a day and you drop to 1000 calories a day you won't lose fat?

Dead wrong. You WILL lose fat (and muscle). There simply aren't enough calories (fuel) coming into the body to support it (low metabolism or not). Even if you just lie on the couch all day.

[Songsangnim]

personally with the way i train, weight lifting to lose fat would never work, because i dont train 4-5 days a week like most, sometimes i will only train once a week, 3 times is probably the most i train, with one being just forearms/grip - so im simply not active enough.

p.s jordan - have you or anybody else you know of gained more than 70lbs in 6 months with 1% increase in body fat? if so give details please

So on average you trained twice a week? That's roughly 45-46 workouts over the six months. And you claim you gained 70 pounds with 1% increase in bodyfat from 45 or so workouts?

Sorry I just don't see that. Even newbie gains aren't that good.

[Jordanbcool]

So on average you trained twice a week? That's roughly 45-46 workouts over the six months. And you claim you gained 70 pounds with 1% increase in bodyfat from 45 or so workouts?

Sorry I just don't see that. Even newbie gains aren't that good.

*Coughs*

You mean even noob gains on steroids with bodybuilding genetics arent that good.

Theres a difference between impossible and pushing human limits.

[JustLost]

you should inquire about it at www.bodyrecomposition.com (after reading everything there).

Heh.

I think everybody should.

[Marnie]

this is a bodybuilding site is it not? ronnie coleman is the top bodybuilder / has been for many years
He's an unnatural freak. Hell, he's impressive, but I'd NEVER ever want to look like that.

[JustLost]

He's an unnatural freak. Hell, he's impressive, but I'd NEVER ever want to look like that.


You can hide at my house when the Bodybuilding Inquisition tries to burn you at the stake.

[seK]

Everyone should have cardio in their routine imo, the benefits are great. Just adjust your diet to compensate for lost cal's ect. Your heart will thank you. :P

Also I would never want to be Ronnie's size nor will I ever have that problem.

[SaVvY]

everybody talks about gains an that sort of thing, if your a bodybuilder, powerlifter, strongman, whatever, of course your gonna talk about how you are progressing and anything to do with what your doing, because its what you do

when i do this, some people see it as im braging, and that i think im somehow more important than other people, that i have an ego etc i just want to say that could not be any further from the truth, i dont even think about any of that kind of thing, i just do the best i can at what i do

Im gonna go over whats happened with me over the past 6-7 months since ive been back training. I started at 180lbs with 14% body fat, and have gone to 250+lbs with 15% body fat, without taking any steroids - this is the honest truth, you can think what you like but id swear it on my life. I use fairly expensive body fat reading scales, and they are accurate, ive tested them with water / my dad was exactly the same at the doctors also.

Some of my measurement increases:

7in around the thigh
7in around chest
9in around shoulders
3.5-4in around arms
2.5-3 in around forearms
2.5 around neck
2.5in around calves
1in around my fists

I am at least double the strength in all the lifts i was doing when i started / am still doing now, triple and over in some. An example of strength gains is i started off using 22lb db's for 8 reps with them being the first thing i did, yesterday i was using 66lb db's for 8 reps, using a slow negative also, when i had already gone balls to walls on cheat curl + negative on a straight bar - again, i swear im being completely honest

I do have a a detailed log over this period, and pictures along the way (they are poor quality, i dont have a proper camera or lighting), but i dont want to get into all that, it creates too much fuss an the log is my private log - i dont want this to be a big deal, especially not in a negative way

The average i workout each week is probably twice yes, but often just once, i train very high intensity, with an average amount of sets, i use nearly all free weights, mainly db's

I eat like a horse (or just eat a horse!), my breakfast alone is more than some people have in a day, i can have upto 3 pounds (cooked weight) of oats for breakfast, and then get hungry an hour later. I can have half a huge mixing bowl of pasta, with 2 large tins of tuna + a quarter bar of high protein cheese, and still be hungry after it, then an hour later i could have 1.5 kilos of beef lasagna etc

I have some smaller meals, but most are large, i also have snacks through the day - ill generally have around 7 or 8 meals, plus 1 or 2 shakes (if its 2 thats 1500+ kcals just from them alone) with at least 5 pints of milk everyday, 10 pints if i can afford it, and somewhere from 15-25 pints of water

A lot of people choose to call me a liar on a lot of things, an will probably only start to realise im telling the truth when i become englands strongest man in a few years time - i have been looking for someone that has had gains to the level i have had for a while, and i have found nobody, using steroids or not / have also read its supposed to be impossible to do what ive done..nothing is impossible as far as im concerned, but i understand why people question it

p.s thank you for advice given

[Jordanbcool]

It really dosent matter. If you know your being truthful then you shouldnt care what we say, you dont know any of us/will never meet any of us. Its just an internet forum used to help eachother in our quest for self improvement. It makes no sense/point to go back and forth with this. If your lying/are truthful no one will know 100% but you.

That being said I STILL think its very far-fetched for you to gain that much weight, that quickly without gear and with so little bodyfat. But hey, what do I know? Im just some random guy.

Dont worry about it, like I said. If your lying you know it and if your not you know it. Good luck.

-jordan

[CODmasterJYK]

The bigger deal with cardio is that it does nothing to preserve LBM and it doesn't create that much of a caloric deficit.

That being said, it DOES create SOME caloric deficit, and it IS good for your heart. Do a little. Just don't rely upon it to lean out. For that purpose, it's a small player at best.

I add in a little cardio as my cut progresses to afford me a small amount of dietary flexibility (ie I'll go for a half hour walk if it means an extra tablespoon of peanut butter that day). And I vary it between SS and HIIT.

Btw... built. Just out of curiosity, what is SS? I know what HIIT is, but I want to know what SS is. What does it stand for?

[pminme]

I'm new at this board, but not new to diet and exercise. I am proof that intense cardio (1 hour a day), combined with a hefty (over 1000) caloric deficit, will make one lose weight and body fat. In 5 months I lost well over 100 pounds (from 330 to 216). It will also, however, make one lose muscle mass. A lot of muscle mass.

My initial goal was to lose the weight. I believe I accomplished this. Now I'm in the process of rebuilding the muscle mass. I'm back up to 245 pounds, but it's all muscle. I still have the same pant size as when I weighted 216, but my size "large" shirts are getting way too tight, as are the legs of my pants. Good problem, though...

Everyone’s body is different. From my personal experience, the key is to balance the diet with cardio and weight lifting to produce the desired outcome. Too much cardio (or too much diet for that matter), and muscle goes away

[CODmasterJYK]

I just want to know what SS is. Cuz I looked it up on wikipedia, but all I found was SS troopers in the Nazi Regime. I looked it up on google, and all I found was Social Security. What does SS in this context stand for.

[CODmasterJYK]

I just want to know what SS is. Cuz I looked it up on wikipedia, but all I found was SS troopers in the Nazi Regime. I looked it up on google, and all I found was Social Security. What does SS in this context stand for.

anyone?

[pminme]

Built - correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're referring to SuperSet.

A superset is a training method in which you do two (or more) exercises, one immediately after that other, with no rest in between. The exercises can be for the same muscle group or for 2 different muscle groups. When supersetting, you're getting rid of the rest period and adding intensity to your workouts.

Supersets can:

1. Save time by going from one exercise to another without rest, making your workouts shorter and more efficient.
2. Increases your intensity because you're working the same muscle, but with different exercises, you're adding to the intensity of your workout.
3. Supersets allow you to overload your muscles without using heavy weights--perfect for someone who wants to build muscle but doesn't have a spotter or doesn't want to lift very heavy weights.
4. Provides a change for the muscles. Supersetting can make weight training a little more interesting and definitely more challenging.
5. Offers many lifting possibilities. You don't have to do exercises for the same muscle group - you can do opposing muscle groups (bis and tris) or even two complete different parts of the body.

Basically you pick 2 (or more) exercises for the same muscle group (or different muscle groups) and do them one after the other. Rest and repeat!

[Built]

SS cardio is steady state. For example, a brisk walk.

[pminme]

My apologies. Never heard that type of cardio called that before. Never too old to learn... :study: