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homeboy7600
07-10-2006, 10:31 PM
What happens if you don't get enough carbs in your diet?

lifter4life
07-10-2006, 11:35 PM
Your body turns to other sources for energy, like protein and fat. You will also burn out a lot faster while exercising. There's probably a huge list of others stuff too.

MagnaSephiroth
07-11-2006, 01:53 AM
without carbs you wont get the results you want

TheGimp
07-11-2006, 03:28 AM
There's no such thing as enough carbs. They're a non-essential macronutrient.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 03:39 AM
without carbs you wont get the results you want
why not?

Unreal
07-11-2006, 07:58 AM
What results are those? I'm sure you can pack on some great mass eating 5000 cals a day of nothing but fat/protein if needed.

Eszekial
07-11-2006, 09:30 AM
Carbs are unnecessary.

Read UD2 or The Ketogenic Diet from lyle Mcdonald.

In fact, go read anything from Lyle McDonald.

You'll have a new understanding on proper carb consumption.

Post a Glycemic Index in your kitchen.

I'm 6'1, 200, at about 11% BF. I had under 50 carbs yesterday, and worked out yesterday. I am probably ketogenic today (meaning that my body is turning to fat and protein for fuel).

pakse
07-11-2006, 09:45 AM
Howdy,

Well, since you asked - what's wrong with low-carb is that your body is designed to run on Adenosine tri-phosphate (ATP). You've got two ways to produce this from carbohydrate - aerobic and anaerobic (huge gains if you've got the O2 to support aerobic respriation).

Anway - you need carbohydrates to get glucose in order to kick off Glycolysis (or the aerobic form of cellular respriation (look it up if you want to know more about it).

Can you get energy from Proteins and fats? Sure - but it's not easy and not real good for your body. No carb (or not enough) and you can no longer use the Krebs Cycle (aerobic respiration) nor Glycolysis (anaerobic). Now you are stuck using Coenzyme A to convert fat to energy. This is a survival mechanism. It can help, it can keep you alive - and you use it under normal circumstances in a limited fashion.

Now - back to the main point - why not use Coenzyme A all the time as a primary source of energy? (this is what low-carb tries to do). Because this will cause the liver to lose it's stored glycogen then the body starts busting down triglercides in order use acetyl-CoA to produce energy. And here is where the problems begin. The brain requires glucose to optimal function; the Coenzyme A bits only work in an aerobic cycle.

Therefore regardless of how much protein and fat you eat - while you will lose weight - your brain starves.

This is bad.

Keep the faith,

Pakse

Eszekial
07-11-2006, 09:49 AM
The body is smart.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/glucogenesis

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/glycogenesis

Eszekial
07-11-2006, 09:53 AM
Read away.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1138762

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 10:06 AM
Therefore regardless of how much protein and fat you eat - while you will lose weight - your brain starves.

This is bad.



Pakse
Good post, but I am not sure I would call it "starving" if the brain resorts to using ketones for fuel, as opposed to glucose.

MagnaSephiroth
07-11-2006, 11:55 AM
why not?

Isnt it becuase if your body doesnt use carbs, it uses other stuff? Im not a genious on this stuff...yet ;)

KingWilder
07-11-2006, 11:59 AM
This thread made me want pasta

TheGimp
07-11-2006, 12:19 PM
Isnt it becuase if your body doesnt use carbs, it uses other stuff?

Yes, and there's nothing wrong with it doing so.

MagnaSephiroth
07-11-2006, 12:29 PM
Yes, and there's nothing wrong with it doing so.

Surely it must cut down on gains then.. otherwise people here wouldnt have carbs, and eat meat all day :scratch: What are the other sources the body uses? I thought it was protein and fat.

TheGimp
07-11-2006, 12:33 PM
There are plenty of people here who eat low carb diets, or carb cycle, or carefully structure their carb intake to mainly around workouts.

Protein and fat can be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis and most tissues can use ketones for fuel.

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 12:49 PM
Carbs are very essential to us bodybuilders. Please do not forget that everyone.

It may be the first thing to cut on bulks, but to say it is unnessasary isnt true.

-jordan

Eszekial
07-11-2006, 12:57 PM
Actually JBC.... After 24 hours the body will produce its own fuel from protein and fat...

You should know this!

Carbs are actually an unnecessary macro....

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 01:02 PM
Actually JBC.... After 24 hours the body will produce its own fuel from protein and fat...

You should know this!

Carbs are actually an unnecessary macro....

ZEK!!

YOU should know how flat your own workouts are while dieting. Me you and ddegroff know how important they are pre workout. What people dont often realize is that they are very very important post workout to build lean, dense muscle. Your body doesnt dislike carbs at all. Its our main source of energy, and for us to get it from protein (glucose) is a big pain in the butt for our bodies.

Bottom line=Low carbs are good for dieting but for bulking they stink.

-jordan

Chubrock
07-11-2006, 01:48 PM
I don't feel flat before any of my workouts, and I consume less than 60g of Carbs, pretty much everyday.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 02:06 PM
I don't feel flat before any of my workouts, and I consume less than 60g of Carbs, pretty much everyday.
You may not notice it, but 60g barely keeps your liver glycogen stocked so you are going to look flat, as opposed to eating more carbs which would fill up muscle glycogen.

The term "flat" is relative here.

Eszekial
07-11-2006, 02:08 PM
You definetly do notice a difference if you pay attention.

Thursday nights and friday nights are refeed days for those on UD2. If you deplete and refeed right, friday and saturday morning, you don't wake up bloated or water heavy, you wake up yoked bulging.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 02:09 PM
Carbs are very essential to us bodybuilders. Please do not forget that everyone.

It may be the first thing to cut on bulks, but to say it is unnessasary isnt true.

-jordan
It really is true.

Workouts may feel better with carbs. So can daily life having full muscle glycogen

But when it realy comes down to it, you don't absolutely positively do-or-die have to consume carbohydrate. You can still get big from this as well.

I haven't tried it, nor would I want to, but it is still true.

Eszekial
07-11-2006, 02:26 PM
Protein will illicit an insulin response.

Sensativity is also increased post workout.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 02:28 PM
Who are you talking to?

Eszekial
07-11-2006, 02:29 PM
Not you?

Adding to the "carbs are not necessary" arguement.....

Bob
07-11-2006, 02:43 PM
Hey guys... I don't want to be the pessimist here.. but it goes both ways..
I know a couple of vegatarians who have big muscles too.

We are humans.. and were designed to work in the extremes.. which a lot of animals can't do.. take bamboo away from a Panda Bear and he is dead in something like 3 days..

Some reasonable balance is still required.. and everyone must find their ideal ratio... 40-40-20, 35-35-30, 30-40-30... whatever!!! But if you want the most efficient muscle building body possible for your genetics, then you need to find your balance.

I have twice gone to the extreme.. once in my 20s.. and once last year.. eating nothing but protein & fat for at least a week.. it made me less of a human.. could I work out, yep. Was I at peak efficiency... nope.

Tried a very lo-fat diet too once.. same results..
Tried a lo-protein diet too once.. same results..
Balance.. find yours.. become a scientist with your body as the lab..

Humans grew hair in weird places, thumbs, many different types of teeth, a skilled brain and a truly efficient digestive system.. all for a reason.. b/c we are the highest species that is the utmost in survival techniques. Evolution proves our need for balance.

IMHO

PS.. where is built when you need her?? so she can give us all some more real science...

Unreal
07-11-2006, 02:48 PM
No offense to Built, but I think one of the people who knows more then her on this subject has already posted.

I get about 200g of carbs a day, all from oats. 1 cup in morning, 1 cup before work, 1 cup afterwork, all mixed with a scoop of protein blend. Tasty stuff.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 03:08 PM
Some reasonable balance is still required
There is no requirement for balance.


I'm not sure how evolution proves it, as you say.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
07-11-2006, 03:13 PM
Good post, but I am not sure I would call it "starving" if the brain resorts to using ketones for fuel, as opposed to glucose.Ketones are not as "efficient" as glucose as fuel for the brain, but the body will indeed resort to using ketones if it has too.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 03:16 PM
Ketones are not as "efficient" as glucose as fuel for the brain, but the body will indeed resort to using ketones if it has too.
I know


"Starving" is still not the word I would use by a longshot.

Bob
07-11-2006, 03:25 PM
There is no requirement for balance.


I'm not sure how evolution proves it, as you say.
I did say IMHO...
one of my pieces of proof is our teeth.. 3 different kinds.. Molars for smashing grains.. canine for ripping meat.. incisors for slicing fruits & vegatables...

Another is in Mother's milk.. if that truely is the perfect food that we need as babies... what is the ratio of Carbs-Proteins-Fats?? And how can some kids live on it very healthly until 5 or 6 yrs old? And why is all the research pointing to the fact that the longer you breastfeed, the longer that you have to develop a better immune system, higher IQ, less obesity, etc..

Speaking of Milk.. why do some many of us say to drink so much of it?

I do understand that our bodies can adapt when nessecary... and it's way friggin cool that we can live for quite some time on just protein.. heck of a survival mechanism I would say!! But what we are discussing is the ideal here. Not what we can and can't do..

I still believe, that carbs are part of that ideal.. for optimum health, muscle and strength building
IMHO.. waiting for the scientists on WBB to back it up..

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 03:28 PM
Here are bits and pieces of a thread that somewhat pertains to this discussion. This was taken from a thread in which, consequently, Jordan and I engaged in a bried heated argument. The following is not from just one post and has bits edited out.


http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=76477





The body's source of energy is ATP.

Now, the way ATP is produced varies according to MANY different factors.

It just so happens that fatty acids enter the Krebs cycle through several reactions which I am not going to illustrate in detail right now, and produce ATP.

The amount of ATP they produce exceeds the amount that carbs produce through glycolysis and entering into the Krebs cycle, and more than protein as it undergoes gluconeogenesis.





The Krebs cycle has every bit of relevance in what I am talking about.

Yes, fats have more calories than protein and carbs. They have more calories because they produce more energy through oxidation.

Look at the definition of a calorie. It's a measure of heat energy. Macronutritents are assigned calorie counts by the amount of energy measured from oxidation. You don;t magically have all these calories floating around in your body, despite what the popular assumption and identification of what a calorie is by societal standards.

And yes, you did say that carbs have more energy than fats and proteins. Unless you edited what you wrote, go back and look.

Of course a diet lacking in carbohydrates is taken into consideration. But guess what. After the carbs are used where does the energy come from? Fatty acids from the diet, or from adipose tissue (triglycerides in storage from) broken down into fatty acids which then enter the Krebs cycle as Fatty-acyl CoA, forming NADH+H+, FADH2, and GTP, all of which......produce ATP as the enter the electron transport chain. (by the way, I didn't cut and paste this.....and I didn't get into nearly half of the reactions or details involved)

(energy comes from amino acid oxidation also, but I am not getting into that)

So with a diet lacking in carbohydrates, maybe MOST of the energy required of the body does not come from carbohydrates. Wouldn't you agree? While we are on it, the body can use fatty acids for energy even when dietary carbohydrate levels are perfectly adequate.

As far as vegetarians go, ease of accomplishing a goal does not directly relate to the quality. This means that although meat eaters may have it easier, that does not mean they are of better quality.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 03:35 PM
I did say IMHO...
one of my pieces of proof is our teeth.. 3 different kinds.. Molars for smashing grains.. canine for ripping meat.. incisors for slicing fruits & vegatables...

Another is in Mother's milk.. if that truely is the perfect food that we need as babies... what is the ratio of Carbs-Proteins-Fats?? And how can some kids live on it very healthly until 5 or 6 yrs old? And why is all the research pointing to the fact that the longer you breastfeed, the longer that you have to develop a better immune system, higher IQ, less obesity, etc..

Speaking of Milk.. why do some many of us say to drink so much of it?

I do understand that our bodies can adapt when nessecary... and it's way friggin cool that we can live for quite some time on just protein.. heck of a survival mechanism I would say!! But what we are discussing is the ideal here. Not what we can and can't do..

I still believe, that carbs are part of that ideal.. for optimum health, muscle and strength building
IMHO.. waiting for the scientists on WBB to back it up..
I'm not trying to sounds like a jerk, but even though it is your opinion, it is wrong.

I could list out the details of multiple pathways discussing energy transformation on the metabolic level, but the gist is that ATP can be derived from other sources besides dietary carbohydrate.

I'm addressing this from the view on the most basic needs required to live.

In regards to optimal health and muscle building, it is going to vary depending on who you talk to. A dietician is going to recommend primarily carbohydrate, low to moderate protein and low fat for optimal health. A doctor (if they know anyhing) might say something different.

EDIT: The original question was asking what happens when someone does not eat enough carbohydrate. (whatever "enough" means)

2nd EDIT: As far as evolution, our bodies may one day develop ways to deal with insane amounts of saturated fatty acids or trans fats without having any adverse effect. However, that does not mean it is ideal for us to do that.

MagnaSephiroth
07-11-2006, 04:21 PM
Hey guys... I don't want to be the pessimist here.. but it goes both ways..
I know a couple of vegatarians who have big muscles too.

We are humans.. and were designed to work in the extremes.. which a lot of animals can't do.. take bamboo away from a Panda Bear and he is dead in something like 3 days..

Some reasonable balance is still required.. and everyone must find their ideal ratio... 40-40-20, 35-35-30, 30-40-30... whatever!!! But if you want the most efficient muscle building body possible for your genetics, then you need to find your balance.

I have twice gone to the extreme.. once in my 20s.. and once last year.. eating nothing but protein & fat for at least a week.. it made me less of a human.. could I work out, yep. Was I at peak efficiency... nope.

Tried a very lo-fat diet too once.. same results..
Tried a lo-protein diet too once.. same results..
Balance.. find yours.. become a scientist with your body as the lab..

Humans grew hair in weird places, thumbs, many different types of teeth, a skilled brain and a truly efficient digestive system.. all for a reason.. b/c we are the highest species that is the utmost in survival techniques. Evolution proves our need for balance.

IMHO

PS.. where is built when you need her?? so she can give us all some more real science...

I agree with you man. God made carbs as fuel. Using other sources as fuel is like saving information on a floppy disc as opposed to a CD rom. For smaller information, floppy discs are great. But for tons of information CDroms are the best in the long run. BOOYA

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 04:23 PM
I agree with you man. God made carbs as fuel. Using other sources as fuel is like saving information on a floppy disc as opposed to a CD rom. For smaller information, floppy discs are great. But for tons of information CDroms are the best in the long run. BOOYA
Jesus Christ.......

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 04:25 PM
I agree with you man. God made carbs as fuel. Using other sources as fuel is like saving information on a floppy disc as opposed to a CD rom. For smaller information, floppy discs are great. But for tons of information CDroms are the best in the long run. BOOYA
Question:

Why does the energy measured from the oxidation of 1 gram of fatty acid exceed that of 1 gram of carbohydrate?

TheGimp
07-11-2006, 04:27 PM
You talk about evolution. It's only since our ancestors made the move from hunter-gatherers to farmers that carbs became a big part of our diet. We are designed to cope just fine without them.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 04:30 PM
You talk about evolution. It's only since our ancestors made the move from hunter-gatherers to farmers that carbs became a big part of our diet. We are designed to cope just fine without them.
Exactly.



And in the big scheme of things (existence of organic beings), the time in which our bodies have adapted to our "modern lifestyle" really is not a long time at all.


(the funny thing about all this is that I actually prefer high carb over low carb)

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
07-11-2006, 04:44 PM
You talk about evolution. It's only since our ancestors made the move from hunter-gatherers to farmers that carbs became a big part of our diet. We are designed to cope just fine without them.Gawd...stop using that as an argument. Human beings have been eating plants for 60,000 years. It's impossible to say what people were eating back then and if carbs were a big part of the diet or not. But yes, our body was designed to make up for a low intake of carbs, as in the case of gluconeogenesis. But I personally cannot handle low carbs. It screws me up.

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 04:46 PM
Exactly.



And in the big scheme of things (existence of organic beings), the time in which our bodies have adapted to our "modern lifestyle" really is not a long time at all.


(the funny thing about all this is that I actually prefer high carb over low carb)

What, your all naive enough to think our ancestors ate little to no carbs??!! We did not invent veggies or fruits or many other sources of carbs. Now maybe they werent the bulk of our diet, but really; We ate whatever the hell we could get our hands on. Animals do not pick and choose which macros to eat.

In terms of bodybuilding, explosive energy, long term energy, basic well being. I'd say carbs are very essential. Now that I'm bulking, I dont have the mood swings I did while on the UD2 diet. My workouts are fantastic, and are getting better each time and I just look bigger. I still stand that carbs play a large part in our lives. Maybe for some, or most people it dosent but it sure does for me (but thats a totally new topic to begin, genetics). And again.....for a few weeks the low carbs I was eating didnt really affect me much (you can look at my journal if you'd like). However, after a few weeks of low carb dieting my sleep started to suffer and so did everything else. No I wasent dieing or anything dramatic, but I think as time goes on our dependency for carbs will increase. Greatly.

-jordan

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 04:55 PM
What, your all naive enough to think our ancestors ate little to no carbs??!! We did not invent veggies or fruits or many other sources of carbs. Now maybe they werent the bulk of our diet, but really; We ate whatever the hell we could get our hands on. Animals do not pick and choose which macros to eat.

In terms of bodybuilding, explosive energy, long term energy, basic well being. I'd say carbs are very essential. Now that I'm bulking, I dont have the mood swings I did while on the UD2 diet. My workouts are fantastic, and are getting better each time and I just look bigger. I still stand that carbs play a large part in our lives. Maybe for some, or most people it dosent but it sure does for me (but thats a totally new topic to begin, genetics). And again.....for a few weeks the low carbs I was eating didnt really affect me much (you can look at my journal if you'd like). However, after a few weeks of low carb dieting my sleep started to suffer and so did everything else. No I wasent dieing or anything dramatic, but I think as time goes on our dependency for carbs will increase. Greatly.

-jordan
If you did UD2, did you not read the book?

TheGimp
07-11-2006, 04:59 PM
It's impossible to say what people were eating back then and if carbs were a big part of the diet or not.

With study of modern day hunter-gatherer societies, fossil evidence and archaeology it is certainly possible.

There is no denying that agriculture has had a huge impact on our diets with the introduction of grains and increased milk consumption.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 05:04 PM
With study of modern day hunter-gatherer societies, fossil evidence and archaeology it is certainly possible.

There is no denying that agriculture has had a huge impact on our diets with the introduction of grains and increased milk consumption.
That was one of the first things I learned way back in high school when I started reading
Muscle and Fitness (imagaine that).

Eszekial
07-11-2006, 05:05 PM
If you did UD2, did you not read the book?

JBC I Love you but slim is absolutely right :D

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 05:11 PM
Looks like Ez read it, haha

Unreal
07-11-2006, 06:55 PM
Jesus Christ.......


According to some religions Jesus Christ is god....
We aren't arguing that carbs aren't good for working out, or help bulking, but they are not essential for life or even to get big. Are they helpful, yes, are they required, no. Just like whey and creatine aren't required, but taking them can help a bulk.

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 06:55 PM
Looks like Ez read it, haha

Yes. I read it. I've read it multiple times. I fail to see how completly cutting carbs out is supported as being great for muscle building.

-jordan

P.S. Unreal pretty much sums up what I'm trying to say. Although I think carbs play a bigger role then creatine or whey in bulking....but meh.

Chubrock
07-11-2006, 07:12 PM
You may not notice it, but 60g barely keeps your liver glycogen stocked so you are going to look flat, as opposed to eating more carbs which would fill up muscle glycogen.

The term "flat" is relative here.


We had a misunderstanding. Correction, I had a misunderstanding. I took the term "flat" to mean, no energy, as opposed to the fullness of the muscle. This is what I made my statement on.


Ninja Edit: Jordan man, you're going to lose this discussion. Slim is by far one of the most intelligent people on this board, right behind Belial, and me hahahaha.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 07:14 PM
According to some religions Jesus Christ is god.....
I was just expressing frustration and the apparent lack of reading by some in this thread



We aren't arguing that carbs aren't good for working out, or help bulking, but they are not essential for life or even to get big. Are they helpful, yes, are they required, no. Just like whey and creatine aren't required, but taking them can help a bulk.
This about sums it up.

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 07:16 PM
We had a misunderstanding. Correction, I had a misunderstanding. I took the term "flat" to mean, no energy, as opposed to the fullness of the muscle. This is what I made my statement on.


Ninja Edit: Jordan man, you're going to lose this discussion. Slim is by far one of the most intelligent people on this board, right behind Belial, and me hahahaha.

*Sigh*

Slim is arguing if carbs are nessesary for survival. The short answer is no. I dont think I said otherwise. However, being bodybuilders we have different needs then joe smoe or even prehistoric man. No one has thought about that. Maybe some people can get by without carbs but my workouts sure cant. I know I'm not the only person on this board who's body just dosent deal good with low carbs for extended periods of time. Zek dosent, I dont, It sounded like scarz dosent. So then why say its not nessesary? To me it sounds like that proves the opposite.

Again for bodybuilders. Maybe not even all or most. But for some. Just think about it.

-jordan

Chubrock
07-11-2006, 07:23 PM
The workouts I do week in and week out would make most people puke. The majority of the people I train with, as well as our head instructor, eat small amounts of carbs. I feel fantastic throughout the workouts and rarely ever feel tired or weak. I do notice that on the weekends, when I relax my diet, and take in carbs, I feel sluggish, bloated, and mainly like crap. I have a small, yet slightly decent physique, and several of the guys I train with have good builds. I just don't feel that your arguement about us being bodybuilders, thus making our basic needs different, holds much water.

Bob
07-11-2006, 07:29 PM
WTF Slim.. u confuse me!!!! :confused:
When Unreal Said

We aren't arguing that carbs aren't good for working out, or help bulking, but they are not essential for life or even to get big. Are they helpful, yes, are they required, no. Just like whey and creatine aren't required, but taking them can help a bulk.
Slim said:

This about sums it up.
Yet when I said:

I still believe, that carbs are part of that ideal.. for optimum health, muscle and strength building
IMHO.. waiting for the scientists on WBB to back it up..
You said:

I'm not trying to sounds like a jerk, but even though it is your opinion, it is wrong.


And I think we need to go back to the original poster... he said what would happen..

Can we ALL now agree, that if you were to eliminate carbs all together.. that your body would not be as efficient as it should be?? That's what Jordan is saying... that is what I'm saying (especially though the example of Mother's milk)

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 07:31 PM
Slim is arguing if carbs are nessesary for survival. The short answer is no. I dont think I said otherwise. However, being bodybuilders we have different needs then joe smoe or even prehistoric man. No one has thought about that. Maybe some people can get by without carbs but my workouts sure cant. I know I'm not the only person on this board who's body just dosent deal good with low carbs for extended periods of time. Zek dosent, I dont, It sounded like scarz dosent. So then why say its not nessesary? To me it sounds like that proves the opposite.

Again for bodybuilders. Maybe not even all or most. But for some. Just think about it.

-jordan

Please re-read my post. I just dont like the OP being told one side of the story. I am giving him my personal feelings and observations. I've made this very clear. I dont like people being told carbs are not nessesary for anyone. That leaves young bodybuilders possibly having flat workouts and being totally confused about why.

-jordan

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 07:32 PM
Can we ALL now agree, that if you were to eliminate carbs all together.. that your body would not be as efficient as it should be?? That's what Jordan is saying... that is what I'm saying (especially though the example of Mother's milk)

Thank you.

Chubrock
07-11-2006, 07:49 PM
Just as Slim and Gimp said, carbs are an unessential macronutrient. Humans, as a whole, don't need to consume carbs in order to function properly. Some people may feel better while ingesting carbs, but to say that they need them isn't correct. Your body doesn't "need" them. Your body may be accustomed to ingesting carbs and the way you feel while following a carb rich diet, but that it doesn't mean you need to eat them in order to thrive.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 07:52 PM
WTF Slim.. u confuse me!!!! :confused:
When Unreal Said

Slim said:

Yet when I said:

You said:


And I think we need to go back to the original poster... he said what would happen..

Can we ALL now agree, that if you were to eliminate carbs all together.. that your body would not be as efficient as it should be?? That's what Jordan is saying... that is what I'm saying (especially though the example of Mother's milk)Your original post said that we need to find a balance.

I said that was wrong.

Your next post said it was your opnion.

That was what I was refering to when I said what you quoted above. Not the "ideal" part.

Sorry for the confusion.

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 07:53 PM
Just as Slim and Gimp said, carbs are an unessential macronutrient. Humans, as a whole, don't need to consume carbs in order to function properly. Some people may feel better while ingesting carbs, but to say that they need them isn't correct. Your body doesn't "need" them. Your body may be accustomed to ingesting carbs and the way you feel while following a carb rich diet, but that it doesn't mean you need to eat them in order to thrive.

My argument is that some people NEED them to have a good workout. They are also great for muscle building as your body uses carbs as its main source of energy. So in conclusion. For bodybuilders carbs are very nessesary.

-jordan

P.S. This is a personal question but do you gimp or slim bulk on no or low carbs? I think slim already said he dosent. Why is that? Is it for convience? I think not.

P.P.S. Nothing that was said isnt anything I've already known or previously learned. If anything the UD2 book enhanced my long held point/veiw on the importance of carbs in ones diet. He doesent have refeed days for just psycological reasons only.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 08:00 PM
How about someone throws some science out that contradicts what I am saying.



And yes, I prefer carbs. The neat point is that I am arguing in support of the opposite thing I prefer.
However, if I switched to a low carb diet for a significant period of time, I have no doubt I would feel fine and be successful with what I seek to accomplish. Other people already do this.

ddegroff
07-11-2006, 08:10 PM
Has any of us actually tried to bulk on just fat/protein and very few Carbs (less than 60)?

I know from my experience, JBC, Zek and others on UD2, that we are pretty much brainless. Part i'm sure it's do to the low carb part, BUT most of it is the super low cals were on. We are eating HALF our maintenance cals, thats why were tired and our workouts suck.

If we were eating much more I'm sure our body would adapt and we would feel much better. So to say CHO are neccessary I'm not so sure. I would say Perferred is a better word.

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 08:14 PM
How about someone throws some science out that contradicts what I am saying.


You know as well as I do that there arent any studies that show bulking or gaining muscle can be done while cutting carbs completly or atleast very low.

I am going on feel/personal observation and it seems that what I'm arguing holds up with other people/bodybuilders on this board.

Slim. You are not me. You will never be me. I am not you, gimp, zek, built, or any other person on this forum. I have the same BASIC needs as you all but in other ways I am totally different. I do not do well without carbs. Why would I lie? I have a whole journal explaining my PSMF and UD2 Diets in FULL detail including mood, feeling, workouts etc. etc. We do not know enough right now about the human body to make everything so cut and dry. Everything is not that easy. You are arguing if they are nessesary for survival. I already told you they arent. I am arguing that they are very nessesary for bulking or general well-being. Atleast for me. I have gave some ground. I have stated that everyone is not like me. I am trying to give the OP the WHOLE story from all angles.

I have great respect for you. I just dont think we should be posting this kind of blanket information. The kind that ends up being proven wrong in later years of research.

-jordan

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 08:16 PM
I know from my experience, JBC, Zek and others on UD2, that we are pretty much brainless. Part i'm sure is do to the low carb part, BUT most of it is the super low cals were on. We are eating HALF our maintenance cals, thats why were tired and our workouts suck.


Very interesting point.

Of course to know the answer to your question I would have to start UD2 for mass gains. However, I cant start that till december :(

Chubrock
07-11-2006, 08:24 PM
As far as bulking on low/no carbs, I haven't done that, yet. I am, however, cutting on less than 60grams a day, and have been for the last 4 months at least. After this long of a cut, I should feel like dirt, but ya know what, I feel fine. I have no doubts whatsoever, that I'd be completely fine bulking on a majority P/F combination, with very little coming from carbs. Steve Maxwell, at 52, has a body that is extremely impressive for his age. His diet is very low in carbs. Heck, the guy pounds pork rinds for the heck of it.



Slim, I completely agree with every point you've made so far. One question I do have though, is why do you choose to follow a high carb diet?

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 08:29 PM
As far as bulking on low/no carbs, I haven't done that, yet. I am, however, cutting on less than 60grams a day, and have been for the last 4 months at least. After this long of a cut, I should feel like dirt, but ya know what, I feel fine. I have no doubts whatsoever, that I'd be completely fine bulking on a majority P/F combination, with very little coming from carbs. Steve Maxwell, at 52, has a body that is extremely impressive for his age. His diet is very low in carbs. Heck, the guy pounds pork rinds for the heck of it.



Slim, I completely agree with every point you've made so far. One question I do have though, is why do you choose to follow a high carb diet?
It's not high right now. Well, weekends are. I am cycling.

It's mainly for the simple reason that I like having tons of glycogen and feeling pumped up. I had a sweet workout today being glyccogen depleted and doing 20 reps/full body. I also have sweet workouts doing the opposite.

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 08:35 PM
You know as well as I do that there arent any studies that show bulking or gaining muscle can be done while cutting carbs completly or atleast very low.

I am going on feel/personal observation and it seems that what I'm arguing holds up with other people/bodybuilders on this board.

Slim. You are not me. You will never be me. I am not you, gimp, zek, built, or any other person on this forum. I have the same BASIC needs as you all but in other ways I am totally different. I do not do well without carbs. Why would I lie? I have a whole journal explaining my PSMF and UD2 Diets in FULL detail including mood, feeling, workouts etc. etc. We do not know enough right now about the human body to make everything so cut and dry. Everything is not that easy. You are arguing if they are nessesary for survival. I already told you they arent. I am arguing that they are very nessesary for bulking or general well-being. Atleast for me. I have gave some ground. I have stated that everyone is not like me. I am trying to give the OP the WHOLE story from all angles.

I have great respect for you. I just dont think we should be posting this kind of blanket information. The kind that ends up being proven wrong in later years of research.

-jordan
I am not debating how people feel or how they don't feel. I am also not just debating whether they are required for survival or not.

I am making points (somewhat vague since I don't really feel like listing out pathways right now like I did one time for fructose) that are the basis of metabolism.

Sure these basics could be disproven years from now. I'm not sure of the likelihood of that, but like any science, it is open to testing.

As far as published studies to prove me wrong, that's not what I meant. I meant that I would like someone to explain how hard workouts and muscle hypertrophy are not possible with a lack of carbohydrte intake.

Jordan, the first debate I ever got into with you was about energy transformation. I posted the link earlier in this thread so you may want to review it.

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 08:38 PM
As far as bulking on low/no carbs, I haven't done that, yet. I am, however, cutting on less than 60grams a day, and have been for the last 4 months at least. After this long of a cut, I should feel like dirt, but ya know what, I feel fine. I have no doubts whatsoever, that I'd be completely fine bulking on a majority P/F combination, with very little coming from carbs. Steve Maxwell, at 52, has a body that is extremely impressive for his age. His diet is very low in carbs. Heck, the guy pounds pork rinds for the heck of it.



Slim, I completely agree with every point you've made so far. One question I do have though, is why do you choose to follow a high carb diet?

I also cut on very very low carbs (some days it was literally 4 grams). It worked well for me for a few weeks but then after that I got very lethargic and moody and my workouts totally sucked. ddegroff had a very good point about it being a combination of the low cals and carbs but for me I think it was mostly the low carbs. I dunno, I may be wrong; the only way I can be 100% sure is if I did UD2 for mass gains.

Even then though, just how its set up (for me) shows the importance of carbs. Lyle uses low carbs to deplete glycogen in the muscles. When the carb up comes, carbs are forced into muscles (because of the workout) and the remaining is feed into glycogen stores. This is what limits fat gain but for me it just shows that the power workouts/refeeds days are heavily dependant on high carbs for a growth stimulas.

-jordan

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 08:42 PM
When the carb up comes, carbs are forced into muscles (because of the workout) and the remaining is feed into glycogen stores.
-jordan
Being forced into the muscle means it is forming glycogen.


Unless you are refering to liver glycogen, but that would fill up first.

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 08:45 PM
I am not debating how people feel or how they don't feel. I am also not just debating whether they are required for survival or not.

I am making points (somewhat vague since I don't really feel like listing out pathways right now like I did one time for fructose) that are the basis of metabolism.

Sure these basics could be disproven years from now. I'm not sure of the likelihood of that, but like any science, it is open to testing.

As far as published studies to prove me wrong, that's not what I meant. I meant that I would like someone to explain how hard workouts and muscle hypertrophy are not possible with a lack of carbohydrte intake.

Jordan, the first debate I ever got into with you was about energy transformation. I posted the link earlier in this thread so you may want to review it.


Ah, I'm glad we are all somewhat on the same page.

Most of what your saying/asking I can honestly tell you I just dont know. MOST of the knowledge I have from all of this comes from the PSMF and the UD2 books I purchased and have read over and over. I feel the UD2 explains/shows in great detail that carbs can be COMPLETLY neglected for short periods of time without having any adverse effects on bodybuilding. Lyle has done the tests, not me. I dont doubt though that the carbs ups arent nessesary for building lean muscle. Until there are even studies conducted (which you said havent been done) I dont want to rule out everything and blanket term carbs and their importance/un-importance in diets.

-jordan

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 08:46 PM
Being forced into the muscle means it is forming glycogen.


Yes....I realize this. lol

I'm sure your aware that there are TWO different types of muscle growth. But thats a totally different topic :)

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 08:46 PM
Ah, I'm glad we are all somewhat on the same page.

Most of what your saying/asking I can honestly tell you I just dont know. MOST of the knowledge I have from all of this comes from the PSMF and the UD2 books I purchased and have read over and over. I feel the UD2 explains/shows in great detail that carbs can be COMPLETLY neglected for short periods of time without having any adverse effects on bodybuilding. Lyle has done the tests, not me. I dont doubt though that the carbs ups arent nessesary for building lean muscle. Until there are even studies conducted (which you said havent been done) I dont want to rule out everything and blanket term carbs and their importance/un-importance in diets.

-jordan
I didn't say studies haven't been done.


Yes....I realize this. lol

Good deal. The way you worded it was a little off, that's all.

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 08:48 PM
As far as published studies to prove me wrong, that's not what I meant. I meant that I would like someone to explain how hard workouts and muscle hypertrophy are not possible with a lack of carbohydrte intake.



Or did I just assume :drooling:

P.S. Thats it! Now you have to admit I'm not pulling all of this out of my ass :D

Slim Schaedle
07-11-2006, 08:53 PM
Or did I just assume :drooling:

P.S. Thats it! Now you have to admit I'm not pulling all of this out of my ass :D
My post meant that I was not seeking studies, but rather for someone to explain why I am wrong using science, etc.

I didn't say there were not studies out there.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
07-11-2006, 09:54 PM
but rather for someone to explain why I am wrong using science, etc.

I didn't say there were not studies out there.People are afraid of science, I guess.

Jordanbcool
07-11-2006, 11:08 PM
My post meant that I was not seeking studies, but rather for someone to explain why I am wrong using science, etc.

I didn't say there were not studies out there.

Nooo. You arent wrong. But am I? Im just trying to give a second veiw on things that all. Unless I see some studies show that its benificial (which I highly doubt) to bulk with low carbs or that it can even be done, I'd like to atleast question anyone who says otherwise.

-jordan

Built
07-15-2006, 06:01 PM
PS.. where is built when you need her?? so she can give us all some more real science...

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but in this area, Slim is Yoda. I just parrot what I read from him.