PDA

View Full Version : noob cardio question



UnknownSoldier
08-04-2006, 12:40 PM
Ok, I am 290 pound 18 year old kid with 33% bf. I was told that running won't keep me at my proper elovated heartrate and that uphill walking is better? Can a heartrate be to high for you to burn fat?

Built
08-04-2006, 12:53 PM
Fat loss is proper diet at a caloric deficit, along with heavy lifting. A little cardio is good for your heart - just don't rely upon it for fat loss.

droman
08-19-2006, 09:44 PM
well a heart rate can't be to high for burning weight but there is a target heart it should be at and that depends on your shape and how long you want to go also i think the person that told you not to have a high heart rate becasue its not good for your heart and you could collapse probably especaily for someone in your shape

ectx
08-20-2006, 03:22 AM
Fat loss is proper diet at a caloric deficit, along with heavy lifting. A little cardio is good for your heart - just don't rely upon it for fat loss.

Okay, Marianne, you know I love ya...and I agree with you on most things, but saying that cardio won't affect fat loss is just flat out wrong. Several studies detail the effect of cardio on fat oxidation, fat metabolism, localized effects on adipose tissue, etc. Cardio also affects insulin sensitivity or lack thereof. Below I've included just a few studies on this phenomenon. I know it didnt' work for you, but it does work for a lot of people. Ultimately it's the balance of all three; diet, cardiovascular exercise, and weight training. Together they form the trinity of any good healthy program, regardless of your goals, unless they are to get really really fat! LOL. Cardiovascular exercise not only improves your resting heart rate and heart stroke volume, but also helps your body run more effeciently and improves your metabolism (perhaps as a result of resting heart rate effects and stroke volume effects...but that's another discussion). Below you'll see just a few studies that back up my comments. Keep in mind that most physiologist will destinguish between weight training and exercise...when they say exercise it's usually defined as cardiovascular training within their protocols...so when you read exercise in the titles or abstracts don't mistake that for weight training and say 'ec, you're wrong' LOL. Also a lot of these studies are in women or don't include a good crossection, but that's only because I was lazy and didn't include a complete crossection of studies, so don't ding me for that either. Finally, please do not take this as a personal attack. That's not my goal. My goal is to encourage healthy discussion on the topic. Yes you can lose weight without cardio, but cardio does help, and that's something folks on here forget.

Alas, here we go:

1: Ryan AS, Nicklas BJ, Berman DM.
Aerobic exercise is necessary to improve glucose utilization with moderate
weight loss in women.
Obesity (Silver Spring). 2006 Jun;14(6):1064-72.
PMID: 16861612 [PubMed - in process]

2: Schenk S, Horowitz JF.
Coimmunoprecipitation of FAT/CD36 and CPT I in skeletal muscle increases
proportionally with fat oxidation after endurance exercise training.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Aug;291(2):E254-60. Epub 2006 May 2.
PMID: 16670153 [PubMed - in process]

3: Hays NP, Starling RD, Sullivan DH, Fluckey JD, Coker RH, Williams RH, Evans
WJ.
Effects of an ad libitum, high carbohydrate diet and aerobic exercise training
on insulin action and muscle metabolism in older men and women.
J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2006 Mar;61(3):299-304.
PMID: 16567381 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4: Mougios V, Kazaki M, Christoulas K, Ziogas G, Petridou A.
Does the intensity of an exercise programme modulate body composition changes?
Int J Sports Med. 2006 Mar;27(3):178-81.
PMID: 16541371 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

5: Stiegler P, Cunliffe A.
The role of diet and exercise for the maintenance of fat-free mass and resting metabolic rate during weight loss.
Sports Med. 2006;36(3):239-62.
PMID: 16526835 [PubMed - in process]

6: You T, Murphy KM, Lyles MF, Demons JL, Lenchik L, Nicklas BJ.
Addition of aerobic exercise to dietary weight loss preferentially reduces
abdominal adipocyte size.
Int J Obes (Lond). 2006 Aug;30(8):1211-6. Epub 2006 Jan 31.
PMID: 16446745 [PubMed - in process]

7: Sartorio A, Maffiuletti NA, Agosti F, Lafortuna CL.
Gender-related changes in body composition, muscle strength and power output after a short-term multidisciplinary weight loss intervention in morbid obesity.
J Endocrinol Invest. 2005 Jun;28(6):494-501.
PMID: 16117189 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

8: Layman DK, Evans E, Baum JI, Seyler J, Erickson DJ, Boileau RA.
Dietary protein and exercise have additive effects on body composition during weight loss in adult women.
J Nutr. 2005 Aug;135(8):1903-10.
PMID: 16046715 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

9: Ainslie PN, Campbell IT, Lambert JP, MacLaren DP, Reilly T.
Physiological and metabolic aspects of very prolonged exercise with particular reference to hill walking.
Sports Med. 2005;35(7):619-47. Review.
PMID: 16026174 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

10: Okura T, Nakata Y, Lee DJ, Ohkawara K, Tanaka K.
Effects of aerobic exercise and obesity phenotype on abdominal fat reduction in response to weight loss.
Int J Obes (Lond). 2005 Oct;29(10):1259-66.
PMID: 15925951 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Built
08-20-2006, 03:30 AM
I didn't say it wouldn't - please re-read my post, carbon.

I said don't rely upon it.

I use a little for an additional caloric deficit, to afford dietary flexibility when I can't bear to drop calories lower.

But I rely on my diet and heavy lifting to lean out.

When I tried to cardio off my weight (for example, for the almost 10 years that I ran 10k 3x a week ... ) I gained, because I wasn't reducing calories and I wasn't lifting weights.

Y0yo
08-20-2006, 06:01 AM
I didn't say it wouldn't - please re-read my post, carbon.

I said don't rely upon it.

I use a little for an additional caloric deficit, to afford dietary flexibility when I can't bear to drop calories lower.

But I rely on my diet and heavy lifting to lean out.

When I tried to cardio off my weight (for example, for the almost 10 years that I ran 10k 3x a week ... ) I gained, because I wasn't reducing calories and I wasn't lifting weights.

Had you been reducing calories and lifting weights do you think you could've achieved your goals more quickly?

ectx
08-20-2006, 11:35 AM
I didn't say it wouldn't - please re-read my post, carbon.

I said don't rely upon it.

I use a little for an additional caloric deficit, to afford dietary flexibility when I can't bear to drop calories lower.

But I rely on my diet and heavy lifting to lean out.

When I tried to cardio off my weight (for example, for the almost 10 years that I ran 10k 3x a week ... ) I gained, because I wasn't reducing calories and I wasn't lifting weights.

Your original post said fat loss is proper diet and caloric deficit along with heavy lifting. There was no mention of cardio there. The one mention was to say "don't rely on it" but the subtext, especially given our conversations was "lift heavy and diet, but don't do cardio". LOL...you can't sneak that by me 'carbona' I know it didn't work for you, but there were a lot of things involving diet that were also screwy for you, and yes, despite my long distance running background, I abhor cardio. It does have its place and it's beyond cardiovascular benefit. It does translate to a more efficient metabolism and should not be ignored and can be an incredible aid in losing fat. Yes, for some folks it can result in catabolism, but that's a matter of diet and the type of cardio you do. HIIT is phenomenal in boosting fat metabolism. I think we both really agree, so I'll drop the argument...no need to argue semantics. I just wanted to clarify that for our noobs. LOL.

Built
08-20-2006, 02:57 PM
Describe phenomenal.

And how much HIIT can one do while significantly overfat?

ectx
08-20-2006, 03:24 PM
I know there have been metabolic studies, I can't find them right now but I will get back to you on that, Off the cuff one study comapred HIIT to endurance training and the individuals on HIIT lost 3 times the amount of fat that the endurance trainees did. (Trembblay A, Simoneau JA, Bouchard C. (1994). Impact of Exercise Intensity on Body Fatness and Skeletal Muscle Metablism, Metabolism. 43(7): 814-818.)

You also bring up a valid point...how much HIIT can one do when 'significantly overfat'. The answer is relative. One can argue the same for endurance training. It's not about running fast, it's about reaching 80-90% of your max heart rate and sustaining that for short periods of time. That range is going to vary from individual to individual. A 300 lb individual will not have to run as fast to reach an 80-90% max heart rate as a 180lber...the work and load on the heart will be different. It's not about the speed, it's about the heart rate in these instances, so Yes, I think an obese person can do HIIT.

I found some additional references on HIIT and fat metabolism:


Bryner, R.W., R.C. Toffle, I.H. Ullrish, and R.A. Yeater. The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary composition in women. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 16:68-73, 1997.

Pacheco-Sanchez, M., and K.K Grunewald. Body fat deposition: effects of dietary fat and two exercise protocols. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 13:601-607, 1994.

Phelain, J.F., E. Reinke, M.A. Harris, and C.L. Melby. Postexercise energy expenditure and substrate oxidation in young women resulting from exercise bouts of different intensity. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 16:140-146, 1997.

Tremblay, A., J. Simoneau, and C. Bouchard. Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism. 43:814-818, 1994.

Tremblay, A., J. Després, C. Leblanc, C.L. Craig, B. Ferris, T. Stephens, and C. Bouchard. Effect of intensity of physical activity on body fatness and fat distribution. Am J. Clin. Nutr. 51:153-157, 1990.


Furthermore, the impact of HIIT is there long after you're done with the regimen as shown by Treuth et al.


Treuth, M.S., G.R. Hunter, and M. Williams. Effects of exercise intensity on 24-h energy expenditure and substrate oxidation. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 28:1138-1143, 1996.

Built
08-20-2006, 06:32 PM
I shall clarify: how much of a caloric deficit is created through cardio, and how is this superior to caloric deficit created through diet?

Keep in mind, in spite of your impression of me, my sweet, I've never said cardio was useless, unnecessary, or bad for you - a little bit is good for your heart, it can be good for active recovery, and it can contribute to your net caloric deficit. But it's not necessary to lean out, and it's not the best way to create the majority of your caloric deficit.

I've read (and can dig up if you need me to) that too much (and this seems to vary tremendously from person to person) steady state cardio can mean fast twitch muscles acting as slow-twitch analogues, and there's a limit to how much HIIT one can do - you won't see too many people advocating HIIT more than a couple times a week.

Your thoughts?

Bob
08-21-2006, 12:16 AM
I've read (and can dig up if you need me to) that too much (and this seems to vary tremendously from person to person) steady state cardio can mean fast twitch muscles acting as slow-twitch analogues, and there's a limit to how much HIIT one can do - you won't see too many people advocating HIIT more than a couple times a week.

Built.. I've actually been looking for that myself.. How many times per week is enough or too much HIIT? I recently increased to 5-6 times per week.. so I could build some better endurance for BJJ and also for a little more fat burning, so I can continue to eat my thrice weekly summer-time sundaes... lol.. I live in New England, we all have to have our fresh ice cream in the summers.. heck, all year long...

Built
08-21-2006, 12:22 AM
I just don't know. I don't like to do HIIT more than twice a week.

ArchAngel777
09-05-2006, 01:52 PM
If HIIT is done like it should be (intense), then you really shouldn't even be doing it twice a week. Of course, everyone does have their defination of what HIIT is and how much effort... For me, HIIT I damn near 100% effort... When I do my sprints, I am usually put out of commission for at least 5 days or so.

I have also been reading and studying a sprinters style training and they don't suggest you go all out more than once every 7 to 10 days. Said that it stresses the CNS to an extreme level that takes days to recover from.

That being said, when most people do cardio, they are not giving it 100%... For instance, uphill walking might elevate the heart to 120 or 140 or possibly even 160 bpm, but quite often (unless you are in very bad shape) you can keep that up for probably an hour, easily. In these situations, you are safe to do this type of workout everyday if you wanted too. But when really giving it all you have, I would back off a bit.

I know I am going off topic and am not writing in a methodical way, so please read through my poor post here and take it for what it is worth.

My opinion is this: Cardio, if done right does cause *FAT* loss. Cardio if done wrong causes *WEIGHT* loss. Cardio can and will cause you to lose weight (if you are not eating to compensate for it)... But you want to lose the right type of weight.

Eat healthy, Lift Weights, Do an HIIT session once a week, and if you want, throw in three days a week of mild cardio (walk around the lake, nice jog, biking)...

But the bottom line is that you have to deal with calories-in versus calories-out. If you are not burning more than you take it, nothing is going to save you.